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1019 Posts
The ONLY reason why BW continued and will continue to exist as an e-sport in korea is because of its balance. Professional BW competition is only possible because the game is so perfectly balanced. Think about that sentence. It is very huge.
with this in mind, we naturally come to the question of whether or not its sequel, SC2 is as balanced as it is. They are coming out with new expansions and SC2 as an e-sport is in its infancy so its too early to tell. This is a matter of time. Give SC2 the test of time and if the developers are able to change the game so that it is as balanced as BW, then SC2 will stand as a successful e-sport on its own. If not, then expect SC2 to disappear, like hundreds of games in the past. You cannot make a game an e-sport if players do not feel the mechanics are fair.
Games like command and conquer, age of empires II, rise of nations, etc etc, these are all games that have pretty fun gameplay and cool storylines like brood war. But none of them are e-sports because none are balanced ingame. Granted, no one ever tried to make those games into e-sports but they never did because no one thought the game was balanced (and also those were not as hugely popular as BW was).
This is why SC2 is taking a huge gamble. They are forcing it into an e-sport when nobody knows that it is balanced or viable to play in the long run. If in the end, people are unhappy about the mechanics, then it will crumble. If not, then great, e-sports can grow even more. Don't compare it to the growth of the BW professional scene. BW was a total accident in south korea that just happened to turn out amazing. SC2 is different, and like I said, we need to give it time before we can make any kind of conclusions.
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hopefully korea makes a new turney, because korean wcg were always great.
i just remember on games like bisu vs flash on heartbreakbridge 
but i dont think this hurts the foreigners, since the most switched to sc2.
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On March 08 2011 07:03 Redmark wrote:Show nested quote +This is a common misconception, and yes large armies were harder to micro because of 12 unit limit. But what's the UI got to do with muta/wraith micro, reaver control etc. That's simply just something lacking from the game, nothing to do with limitations or autocast. All micro is UI, he's saying that all micro is not equal. Features like limited control groups were not universally liked.
I don't think me or anyone else is saying limited control groups should be in SC2. I agree that not all micro is the same, but simply there's really no equivalent to some units like the reaver. Also as mentioned, the units which are used to control space like the lurker are gone too which is another dynamic gone from the combat.
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On March 08 2011 04:54 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 04:51 Qaatar wrote:On March 08 2011 04:16 Krogan wrote:
This is great news imo, world moves on and it would be much better for esports if people would just get behind sc2 and not split up the scene. The same situation almost killed CS as people refused to move to CS:S and while there were some good reasons not to go to CS:S there is no reason by nostalgia to stay with SC:BW.
So pretty much I don't believe the two can co exist and there is no doubt that Sc2 will be the game to go forward. You're entitled to your opinion, but as of right now, the same reasons people stay with BW are the exact same reasons people refused to switch to CS:S. The gameplay is just so much more balanced. The reason I said "right now" is because I want to reserve judgment until all of the expansion packs for SC2 come out, and then give it another half year or so to see how the game evolves. If by 2014 (or whatever the date is), the games continue to be somewhat like the games we have now, SC2 is fucked. I think almost all of the current SC2 pros share the sentiment that BW is the superior game right now, but since it is almost impossible to break into the BW scene as a foreigner, coupled with great prize money and sponsorships worldwide, the only chance for a foreigner to go pro is with SC2. Agreed, I just like the units and the mechanics better. I played SC2 for a while because a lot of my friends played, and it was fun... for a while. The units are so lackluster... The marauder, roach, immortal, colossus feel like such boring units. Thor and marauder don't even fit in with the terran theme, the BC already occupies that role. The roach doesn't really fit in with the zerg theme either. There's also the terrible terrible damage, terrible terrible range, and terrible terrible supply count syndrome. Then there's the deathball; maxed out armies are also much smaller in unit count, and take up less room, so large fights have nothing on BW tvp or zvp battles, which can take up more than 2 screens. There is much less variation between the races, like all races possessing low dps 'tanks' like marauder and roach, which really belongs to protoss. Then there's the gameplay. Automine and MBS means macro is no longer a difficult skill, the pure macro player no longer exists, since you don't need to dedicate that much effort to macro. Even protoss macro in BW is harder than SC2 zerg macro. Also, micro is easier too, with good unit AI, smartcast, infinite unit selection. Smartcast is especially disgusting; even newbs can carpet storm with ease, spam fungals, clone feedback. Micro just isn't very impressive. In BW, you see a good flank with lurker ling wreck your MnM army, you respect your opponent for the move. In SC2, you see some terran kite your army with marauders, or carpet storm, and you really aren't impressed, since you could easier pull it off as well. Also, BW UI allows for more defined playstyles. If your macro is good, you can roll your opponent, if your micro is good, you can destroy their armies with ease and win early. If your multitask and army control is good, stall for the lategame to abuse your advantage. I'm sure all of these points have been beaten to death already, but this is how I feel. I play SC2 for casual games and to relax, I play BW when I wanna be competitive.
I see no reason not to have good unit pathing, smartcast, mbs or automine in a 2010 game made with a much bigger budget and aimed at a much bigger market. This is not 1998 anymore, where video games were a much smaller market than today, and technology/internet/advertising wasn't anything close to today. This is game that is going to be played by alot of players and to increase the game's appeal to the to masses, there is nothing wrong with removing some pointless restrictions.
Where do you draw the line anyway? Why have the building rally points then? Why can't you just take every single unit the moment they appear and manually send them to wherever you'd like? That sounds much more important to me in relation to the game compared to repetitive and monotonous actions that you are going to perform no matter what course the game takes. You will always mine, build and move the units around. There is nothing wrong with removing some pointless restrictions that hamper the players from executing the plan in their mind unless they practice on how to get around the unnecessary obstables that could easily be removed. I only don't like smartcast. In my opinion, if we are to have smartcast, then the casters should be limited in number (i.e no more than 4-5 spellcasters per game can be trained for each race) and their energy, so that it wouldn't be that easy to just spam shit all over the place, as players would have to be careful to get the best worth out of it. I feel the same for Colossus, restrict it to 4-5 per game. (the limit where things get out of hand for the opposing player) If it it's going to be a 1-a unit, reduce the effectiveness of the 1-a, stop the abusive applications of the strategies that involve the unit.
Don't get me wrong, I REALLY enjoy watching BW. It is one of the greatest games of all time, yet it was a game that belonged to its own era. If the stars did not align and the things did not take off in Korea, it could have still been remembered as a great game (as it was a marvelous strategy game) but the competitiveness and the difficulty of the gameplay could have prevented it from being a popular game. It is the dedication, hard work, and effort of those great man who took up to the task and created wondrous displays out of it, showing what it is capable of, that made SC1 the jewel of e-sports. Don't expect another BW from SC2. They are fundamentally similar, yet different, both equally exciting and both with flaws. SC2 is a children of the new, global gaming industry, where profit is on the line first and foremost. Brood War belong to an era where love was the major factor in making games, and Blizzard showed how well they can do when they embrace their passion in game making.
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This is the starting. The game will die no matter what.
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On March 08 2011 07:31 Sufr1r wrote:
This is the starting. The game will die no matter what.
Heresy! You should be tarred and feathered in the TL town centre!
Seriously though, BW is too damn good to die.
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On March 08 2011 07:35 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 07:31 Sufr1r wrote:
This is the starting. The game will die no matter what. Heresy! You should be tarred and feathered in the TL town centre! Seriously though, BW is too damn good to die.
Yeah, as if 50% of TeamLiquid staff cares about anything other than their shiny accessible SC2 any more.
WCG? w/e, they can have their bad judgements, they'll be the ones who regret it.
User was warned for this post
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Personally I would've enjoyed seeing more Brood War but I suppose that at it's WCG's call. I mean there have only been a few foreigners coming CLOSE to winning a Finals over a Korean anyway, right?
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I want to point out that for everyone who is talking about the "potential" of sc2, well lets go back to the main topic: WCG shouldn't put a game on its roster just because it has Potential. We are talking about the worlds biggest and only cyber games tournament, should they just bring any game that has the Potential to be good? no, they should only bring games that ARE good, and have PROVEN it.
(like bw! ) (  )
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On March 08 2011 07:53 TheNessman wrote:I want to point out that for everyone who is talking about the "potential" of sc2, well lets go back to the main topic: WCG shouldn't put a game on its roster just because it has Potential. We are talking about the worlds biggest and only cyber games tournament, should they just bring any game that has the Potential to be good? no, they should only bring games that ARE good, and have PROVEN it. (like bw! ) ( )
They bring in games that are popular, and are competitive worldwide. More specifically, they need games that bring in the most sponsor dollars, although in addition to this they also have to consider how international a game is because that's part of what the WCG represents. They've clearly made that decision here.
I don't mean to offend anyone, just those who make subjective comments on what games are good, and which games have proven it.
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Let the legend gracefully retire.
SC2 needs our pure focus and energy to grow as big as SC1 once was, and then, beyond.
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On March 08 2011 08:15 DarkGeneral wrote:
Let the legend gracefully retire.
SC2 needs our pure focus and energy to grow as big as SC1 once was, and then, beyond.
This sentement (and the many like it) confuses me. "Let's tear down what most people consider to be a great thing so that we can make room for something that might be as good with time"?
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On March 08 2011 08:05 applejuice wrote:
They bring in games that are popular, and are competitive worldwide. More specifically, they need games that bring in the most sponsor dollars, although in addition to this they also have to consider how international a game is because that's part of what the WCG represents. They've clearly made that decision here.
I don't mean to offend anyone, just those who make subjective comments on what games are good, and which games have proven it.
Not sure about the competitive part but aside from that your comments are spot on, which is why esports is such a joke; something that is meant to be competition has now turned into a popularity contest. You need to respect BW for esport in the west to have any legitimacy.
And why are even comparing the timelength for the game that has existed theres probably been 10 games of sc2 played for every BW game in the last 3 years, still no awe inspiring evolution that everyone keeps hoping for ( except for the patches but talking about that would just be stupid).
And why the hell does everyone keep taking Day9's word as bible, I'm pretty sure he makes those videos to help you think for yourself, give your own reasons for why a unit has potential. Besides, you might as well ignore what Day9 says about potential with the way the patches are going.
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Feel free to go and focus on it yourself; If it's apparently so good then i don't think it needs any of our help to be big.
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On March 08 2011 08:23 hacklebeast wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 08:15 DarkGeneral wrote:
Let the legend gracefully retire.
SC2 needs our pure focus and energy to grow as big as SC1 once was, and then, beyond. This sentement (and the many like it) confuses me. "Let's tear down what most people consider to be a great thing so that we can make room for something that might be as good with time"?
Don't even try to make since of that comment. Logic is being defied repeatedly on this thread.
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On March 08 2011 08:23 hacklebeast wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 08:15 DarkGeneral wrote:
Let the legend gracefully retire.
SC2 needs our pure focus and energy to grow as big as SC1 once was, and then, beyond. This sentement (and the many like it) confuses me. "Let's tear down what most people consider to be a great thing so that we can make room for something that might be as good with time"?
Yeah i'm sorry but...you aren't tearing down anything to make way for sc2. the BW scene is already dying, he's saying "don't keep trying to save it, move on". Which is what BW players really need to do IMO
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Honestly I don't care that much. As far as the foreigner scene goes many of the players I care about have already moved to SC2 awhile ago. The Korean BW scene that we all love is still alive and kicking though and that's where the best games have always been played.
Although I must say this news makes me feel bad for the budding BW foreigner star Zim. He was just taking off and he had so much potential. On the other hand we have less risk of Kal drowning to death so that's a plus.
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Ehhh. WCG was where I watched the best foreigners get roflstomped by Koreans, and with no offense to G5, With the majority of the foreign scene moving to SC2, It's not quite the same.
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BW will revive in the 3rd world :D
their computers are ready for it (as long as electicity is available)
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pretty sad that it was never won by a foreigner
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EPT
