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To give a wider perspecive on current and past BroodWar scene, I made statistical overview of head-to-head achievements between Bonjwas and (to show the level of Lee-Ssang dominance),
Flash and Jaedong records against KeSPA Top 20 for November 2010.
Spoilers contain Win/Lose timeline of each rivalry.
Enjoy!
RANDOM FACTS
- Flash and Jaedong already played more games aganst each other than Boxer and Nada.
- Flash has even records with Stork and Best, but doesn't have any losing record vs Top 20.
- Despite Jaedong's sick ZvP, he has losing records against both Bisu and Stork.
- Kal managed to lose ten (!) consecutive games to Jaedong.
- Iloveoov managed to beat Nada nine times in a row.
- Flash eats Pure for breakfast.
- Jaedong eats Stats for breakfast.
I. BONJWAS HEAD-TO-HEAD+ Show Spoiler +AND AGAINST FLASH & JAEDONG, FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO BITCH HERE
 BoxeR
vs NaDa: 20-21 (-1) (48,78%): + Show Spoiler +LLLWLLLWWLWWWWLWLLWWLWLLLWLWWWLWLWWWLLWLL  sAviOr: 1-6 (-5) (14,29%): + Show Spoiler +vs Jaedong: 0-2 (-2) (0,00%): + Show Spoiler +vs Flash: 1-1 (0) (50,00%): + Show Spoiler +
NaDa
vs BoxeR: 21-20 (+1) (51,22%): + Show Spoiler +WWWLWWWLLWLLLLWLWWLLWLWWWLWLLLWLWLLLWWLWW WLLLLLWLWLLLWWLWLWWWWLWLL
iloveoov
vs BoxeR: 5-4 (+1) (55,56%): + Show Spoiler +vs NaDa: 17-6 (+11) (73,91%): + Show Spoiler +vs sAviOr: 1-6 (-5) (14,29%): + Show Spoiler +vs Jaedong: 2-2 (0) (50,00%): + Show Spoiler +vs Flash: 0-3 (-3) (0,00%): + Show Spoiler +
sAviOr
vs BoxeR: 6-1 (+5) (85,71%): + Show Spoiler +vs NaDa: 14-11 (+3) (56,00%): + Show Spoiler +LWWWWWLWLWWWLLWLWLLLLWLWW
Jaedong
vs BoxeR: 2-0 (+2) (100,00%): + Show Spoiler +vs NaDa: 5-1 (+4) (83,33%): + Show Spoiler +vs iloveoov: 2-2 (0) (50,00%): + Show Spoiler +vs sAviOr: 5-4 (+1) (55,56%): + Show Spoiler +vs Flash: 20-23 (-3) (46,51%): + Show Spoiler +LLWWWLWLLWLWWWLWWLLWWLLWLWWLLLLLWWLLWWLLWLL
Flash
vs BoxeR: 1-1 (0) (50,00%): + Show Spoiler +vs NaDa: 2-0 (+2) (100,00%): + Show Spoiler +vs iloveoov: 3-0 (+3) (100,00%): + Show Spoiler +vs sAviOr: 12-6 (+6) (66,67%): + Show Spoiler +vs Jaedong: 23-20 (+3) (53,49%): + Show Spoiler +WWLLLWLWWLWLLLWLLWWLLWWLWLLWWWWWLLWWLLWWLWW
II. FLASH AND JAEDONG vs KeSPA TOP 20
Flash
vs Jaedong: 23-20 (+3) (53,49%): + Show Spoiler +WWLLLWLWWLWLLLWLLWWLLWWLWLLWWWWWLLWWLLWWLWW  free: 13-4 (+9) (76,47%): + Show Spoiler +vs Sea: 6-1 (+5) (85,71%): + Show Spoiler +vs Kal: 8-2 (+6) (80,00%): + Show Spoiler +vs Light: 6-1 (+5) (85,71%): + Show Spoiler +vs Bisu: 12-9 (+3) (57,14%): + Show Spoiler +vs Calm: 5-4 (+1) (55,56%): + Show Spoiler +vs ZerO: 4-2 (+2) (66,67%): + Show Spoiler +vs Stork: 11-11 (0) (50,00%): + Show Spoiler +vs HiyA: 10-3 (+7) (76,92%): + Show Spoiler +vs Action: 2-0 (+2) (100,00%): + Show Spoiler +vs fOrGG: 6-4 (+2) (60,00%): + Show Spoiler +vs BaBy: 3-1 (+2) (75,00%): + Show Spoiler +vs Pure: 6-0 (+6) (100,00%): + Show Spoiler +vs RorO: 3-0 (+3) (100,00%): + Show Spoiler +vs BeSt: 4-4 (0) (50,00%): + Show Spoiler +vs Stats: + Show Spoiler +
Jaedong
vs Flash: 20-23 (-3) (46,51%): + Show Spoiler +LLWWWLWLLWLWWWLWWLLWWLLWLWWLLLLLWWLLWWLLWLL LLLWWLLWWWWWLWWLLLLWLLWWL
Dominance? I think so.
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Osaka27148 Posts
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Bisu and Stork stick out from those records.
Best too, against Flash.
And Calm? What the hell?
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Good stuff but how on earth could you leave out Boxer v Yellow. It's probably a horribly uneven head to head but its just so important.
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On November 24 2010 07:13 night terrors wrote:
Bisu and Stork stick out from those records.
Best too, against Flash.
And Calm? What the hell?
yea calm has surprisingly strong results vs JD and flash lol
poor kal :\
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Flash is imba.
Stork is a baller. 50-50 vs Flash and winning record vs JD. ^__^
Interesting to see that JD has a losing record vs all the other TaekBangLeeSsang players. O_o
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I want to see Flash vs Bisu! When is the next KT vs SKT match? Oh gawd scratch that, when is the next MSL final!
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On November 24 2010 07:35 revy wrote:
Good stuff but how on earth could you leave out Boxer v Yellow. It's probably a horribly uneven head to head but its just so important.
Yellow a bonjwa? I think not.
Interesting read, especially the savior vs. Nada scores 
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Bug Time Attacker is hard counter to the Dong?!!!!?!!?
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Croatia9500 Posts
That Bonjwas list is missing some green color :/
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On November 24 2010 08:13 MageKirby wrote:
Bug Time Attacker is hard counter to the Dong?!!!!?!!?
Arena MSL? :D
I love that series ^_^
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sry i dont get it - who is bug time attacker???
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On November 24 2010 08:35 AssiRoyal wrote:
sry i dont get it - who is bug time attacker???
ForGG. Map imba and crazy timing made 3-0 happened.
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On November 24 2010 08:35 AssiRoyal wrote:
sry i dont get it - who is bug time attacker???
He won the Arena MSL finals 3-0 vs Jaedong. This is when Jaedong was already good.
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On November 24 2010 08:35 AssiRoyal wrote:
sry i dont get it - who is bug time attacker???
forgg. before flash finally "broke" jd last season, jd had never lost a major finals before except that one against forgg in the arena msl.
the general consensus is that forgg was in the form of his life at that time and that the mappool was ridiculously t>z biased.
until his recent loss streak in tournament finals against flash, jd has had a record of some 20-ish to 3 in bo5 series. these 3 losses were to rock in the challenge league finals, to forgg in the arena msl finals and to calm in a 2009 msl semis.
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On November 24 2010 08:37 LunarDestiny wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 08:35 AssiRoyal wrote:
sry i dont get it - who is bug time attacker??? ForGG. Map imba and crazy timing made 3-0 happened.
Map imba also made him smash Flash 3-1. ^__^
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nice data, thanks for sharing it
forgg > jd ezpz
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ah lol i didnt even see the 1-3 record
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On November 24 2010 08:41 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 08:37 LunarDestiny wrote:On November 24 2010 08:35 AssiRoyal wrote:
sry i dont get it - who is bug time attacker??? ForGG. Map imba and crazy timing made 3-0 happened. Map imba also made him smash Flash 3-1. ^__^
AND he is 6-3 against Bisu! lol
Its nice to see this organized list.
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should stick effort in there, his osl win against flash is pretty significant.
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On November 24 2010 07:35 revy wrote:
Good stuff but how on earth could you leave out Boxer v Yellow. It's probably a horribly uneven head to head but its just so important.
Actually:
BoxeR's map record vs. YellOw (all competitions): 33 wins - 31 losses (51.56%)
BoxeR's map record vs. YellOw (individual competitions): 28 wins - 26 losses (51.85%)
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On November 24 2010 09:53 amarillo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 07:35 revy wrote:
Good stuff but how on earth could you leave out Boxer v Yellow. It's probably a horribly uneven head to head but its just so important. Actually: BoxeR's map record vs. YellOw (all competitions): 33 wins - 31 losses (51.56%) BoxeR's map record vs. YellOw (individual competitions): 28 wins - 26 losses (51.85%)
yea, basically boxer was owning yellow at all the "official/important" events like osl, msl and so on, while yellow was owning boxer at the "inofficial/fun" events.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Nada vs iloveoov: 6-17 (-11) (26,09%)
Rofl
Kal's stats vs JD and Flash are just fucking lol.
Jaedong vs Kal: 15-4 (+11) (78,95%)
Flash vs Kal: 8-2 (+6) (80,00%)
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On November 24 2010 08:37 LunarDestiny wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 08:35 AssiRoyal wrote:
sry i dont get it - who is bug time attacker??? ForGG. Map imba and crazy timing made 3-0 happened.
To me the understated bit is that they were teammates. We all know the dong is better, but perhaps after getting beat over and over ForGG found a chink in his armor.
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I'd be interested to see Bisu and Stork's head to head record vs Kespa's Top 20, since they seem to be the ones doing best against JD/Flash.
Edit: Also, you have to keep in mind that these are results spanning an entire career. For example, if you check JD vs Stork it seems pretty even with both players trading wins and losses, but if you look at Flash vs Stork then you can see Flash took a lot of losses early in his career but has been dominating their recent encounters.
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On November 24 2010 09:58 Roffles wrote:
Nada vs iloveoov: 6-17 (-11) (26,09%)
Rofl
Kal's stats vs JD and Flash are just fucking lol.
Jaedong vs Kal: 15-4 (+11) (78,95%)
Flash vs Kal: 8-2 (+6) (80,00%)
Lololololololol. i think Kal is a prime example of a player that beats lesser players easily but crumbles to better ones. Still don't really get the reason why though? - more like playstyle or more due to nerves?
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On November 24 2010 10:04 chongu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 09:58 Roffles wrote:
Nada vs iloveoov: 6-17 (-11) (26,09%)
Rofl
Kal's stats vs JD and Flash are just fucking lol.
Jaedong vs Kal: 15-4 (+11) (78,95%)
Flash vs Kal: 8-2 (+6) (80,00%) Lololololololol. i think Kal is a prime example of a player that beats lesser players easily but crumbles to better ones. Still don't really get the reason why though? - more like playstyle or more due to nerves?
kal is a good but not oustanding player that is very consistent. bisu and stork both are much more inconsistent than kal, but they are both able to elevate their play to levels which are inaccessible for kal, but necessary to take down players like flash or jd.
its the same thing with leta or sea: they consistently beat lesser players because of few fluctuations in their form, but their top play isnt strong enough to compete with monster players.
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On November 24 2010 08:38 seRapH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 08:35 AssiRoyal wrote:
sry i dont get it - who is bug time attacker??? He won the Arena MSL finals 3-0 vs Jaedong. This is when Jaedong was already good.
Were they on the same team back then?
I'm surprised Bisu is holding up vs. Flash so well. Maybe it was during the time when Flash wasn't as solid as he is today
Thanks for the great post!
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I think the Flash has only one losing record to a player - Skyhigh. Granted he isn't top 20 but his TvT is simply surreal.
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On November 24 2010 10:25 Emon_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 08:38 seRapH wrote:On November 24 2010 08:35 AssiRoyal wrote:
sry i dont get it - who is bug time attacker??? He won the Arena MSL finals 3-0 vs Jaedong. This is when Jaedong was already good. Were they on the same team back then? I'm surprised Bisu is holding up vs. Flash so well. Maybe it was during the time when Flash wasn't as solid as he is today Thanks for the great post!
Yes they were. Which made it so much funnier.
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Woah wtf, forgg is 4-1 vs the dong?
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Dong would completely molest forGG if they were ever to play now.
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On November 24 2010 11:37 zenMaster wrote:
Dong would completely molest forGG if they were ever to play now.
Forgg molested JD last Proleague season. That's not too far back in time.
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Canada5565 Posts
Jaedong -1 vs Bisu. mhm. that's right.
Oov +11 Nada, damn.
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I wish forgg would return to his arena msl form....
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On November 24 2010 11:47 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 11:37 zenMaster wrote:
Dong would completely molest forGG if they were ever to play now. Forgg molested JD last Proleague season. That's not too far back in time.
I remember someone on TL saying that ForGG's style counters JD's style perfectly. I think its true, before JD would go into something REALLY aggressive but nowadays, he'll attempt to rush thing to the hive tech rather than keep his aggression. ForGG's timing push is the exact style that's needed to take down the Dong's current style. I'll even put more money on ForGG in beating Jaedong more than Flash.
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On November 24 2010 10:26 Taekwon wrote:
I think the Flash has only one losing record to a player - Skyhigh. Granted he isn't top 20 but his TvT is simply surreal.
nope, flash also has a losing record against yarnc, 3-4.
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On November 24 2010 08:26 2Pacalypse- wrote:
That Bonjwas list is missing some green color :/
Bonjwa list need KTSHIN!
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Wow, amazing list. Thanks OP =) On a side note, I'm surprised Top 20 has so many protosses (in a good way). It's split 8T, 5Z, 7P. It's more even than I thought.
It's scary seeing how dominant Flash really is though. Only Jaedong, Bisu, Calm, and Best are in 50s against him. With Jaedong you see he has a winning record but by less of a percentage on average. And wow, Pure is 0-7 for Flashdong combined (maybe that's why he did nothing for my fantasy team last season...)
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So, 134 - 72 for Flash and 138 - 98 for Jaedong against people in the current top 20. And a large percentage of their losses come from each other and Bisu/Stork.
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I'm not sure if Savior should be listed as bonjwa any more. After all, all of his titles were revoked after the match-fixing scandal.
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On November 24 2010 16:49 Manit0u wrote:
I'm not sure if Savior should be listed as bonjwa any more. After all, all of his titles were revoked after the match-fixing scandal.
Who's savior? I've never heard of this guy before. Was he a major progamer?
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I'm really surprised Flash is only 12-9 vs Bisu. I've always considered PvT to be Bisu's worst match-up by far and yet he still holds a 43% winrate vs the best Terran in the world. Pretty good considering Flash stomps every other P besides Stork and Best.
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Stork's +1 vs. JD is from that awesome in-your-face-gateways game, YEAHH!
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On November 24 2010 16:49 Manit0u wrote:
I'm not sure if Savior should be listed as bonjwa any more. After all, all of his titles were revoked after the match-fixing scandal.
Yeah it was revoked, but you can't deny his dominance at that time and it will never be forgotten. After all, the term bonjwa is made because of him.
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hihihi stork is the best player vs flash , gogo dinotoss you're the only one who can beat flash
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Good job Ampleaf!
Flash has losing record to these guys (standard leagues only)
Flash vs:
Stork
UpMaGiC
YellOw[ArnC]
HerO_V_
TesteR
sKyHigh
M18M
Flash record 22.11.2010
Some are only one game but others are more like Stork, UpMagic, Yarnc and Skyhigh. Also many of these are retired now so he cant "redeem" himself . Anyways quite impressive.
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Seeing how my previous post was refuted, lemme rephrase. Although Flash may have losing records to some progamers, I think Skyhigh is the only one who has a legitimate shot at maintaining a winning record against Flash should they face each other. His TvT is just too awesome.
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On November 24 2010 21:36 Taekwon wrote:
Seeing how my previous post was refuted, lemme rephrase. Although Flash may have losing records to some progamers, I think Skyhigh is the only one who has a legitimate shot at maintaining a winning record against Flash should they face each other. His TvT is just too awesome.
flashs tvt also is godlike when he is in good form. 4 games are not quite a reliable sample size.... i think he and flash would go about 50:50 in the long run....
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On November 25 2010 07:06 Black Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 21:36 Taekwon wrote:
Seeing how my previous post was refuted, lemme rephrase. Although Flash may have losing records to some progamers, I think Skyhigh is the only one who has a legitimate shot at maintaining a winning record against Flash should they face each other. His TvT is just too awesome. flashs tvt also is godlike when he is in good form. 4 games are not quite a reliable sample size.... i think he and flash would go about 50:50 in the long run....
If they have to play a Bo101 and it gets dead even, Flash will just offrace as protoss and win.
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Nice stat collection! I love this stuff, keep it up.
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On November 25 2010 07:09 okum wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 07:06 Black Gun wrote:On November 24 2010 21:36 Taekwon wrote:
Seeing how my previous post was refuted, lemme rephrase. Although Flash may have losing records to some progamers, I think Skyhigh is the only one who has a legitimate shot at maintaining a winning record against Flash should they face each other. His TvT is just too awesome. flashs tvt also is godlike when he is in good form. 4 games are not quite a reliable sample size.... i think he and flash would go about 50:50 in the long run.... If they have to play a Bo101 and it gets dead even, Flash will just offrace as protoss and win.
loooool.
i think ive heard that flashs offrace protoss is really really strong... like... low A-teamer level.... which would be easily enough to beat skyhigh....^^
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10387 Posts
On November 25 2010 07:43 Black Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 07:09 okum wrote:On November 25 2010 07:06 Black Gun wrote:On November 24 2010 21:36 Taekwon wrote:
Seeing how my previous post was refuted, lemme rephrase. Although Flash may have losing records to some progamers, I think Skyhigh is the only one who has a legitimate shot at maintaining a winning record against Flash should they face each other. His TvT is just too awesome. flashs tvt also is godlike when he is in good form. 4 games are not quite a reliable sample size.... i think he and flash would go about 50:50 in the long run.... If they have to play a Bo101 and it gets dead even, Flash will just offrace as protoss and win. loooool. i think ive heard that flashs offrace protoss is really really strong... like... low A-teamer level.... which would be easily enough to beat skyhigh....^^
I remember him totally wrecking Best's T in an offrace showmatch lol
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On November 25 2010 08:40 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 07:43 Black Gun wrote:On November 25 2010 07:09 okum wrote:On November 25 2010 07:06 Black Gun wrote:On November 24 2010 21:36 Taekwon wrote:
Seeing how my previous post was refuted, lemme rephrase. Although Flash may have losing records to some progamers, I think Skyhigh is the only one who has a legitimate shot at maintaining a winning record against Flash should they face each other. His TvT is just too awesome. flashs tvt also is godlike when he is in good form. 4 games are not quite a reliable sample size.... i think he and flash would go about 50:50 in the long run.... If they have to play a Bo101 and it gets dead even, Flash will just offrace as protoss and win. loooool. i think ive heard that flashs offrace protoss is really really strong... like... low A-teamer level.... which would be easily enough to beat skyhigh....^^ I remember him totally wrecking Best's T in an offrace showmatch lol
well, i dont think bests T is very good. best has a playstyle of throwing units at the opponent, which is pretty much the worst thing u can do as T in tvp....
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On November 24 2010 17:10 Gummy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 16:49 Manit0u wrote:
I'm not sure if Savior should be listed as bonjwa any more. After all, all of his titles were revoked after the match-fixing scandal. Who's savior? I've never heard of this guy before. Was he a major progamer?
We don't talk about savior.
+ Show Spoiler +Savior is/was a zerg who managed to make it to 5 MSL finals in a row (won 3) and won an OSL he is/was considered the 4th bonjwa. The 5th MSL finals he made it to he was expected to stomp the then unknown Bisu into the ground, but ended up losing 0-3 to the then revolutionary Bisu build.
The reason you never heard of him is because he was involved with a game fixing scandal and had his titles taken from him, that and he didn't play to well for the last couple years (with a couple of exceptional periods).
Hopefully you get the joke now.
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man flash and jaedong are literally untouchable
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On November 24 2010 09:54 Black Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 09:53 amarillo wrote:On November 24 2010 07:35 revy wrote:
Good stuff but how on earth could you leave out Boxer v Yellow. It's probably a horribly uneven head to head but its just so important. Actually: BoxeR's map record vs. YellOw (all competitions): 33 wins - 31 losses (51.56%) BoxeR's map record vs. YellOw (individual competitions): 28 wins - 26 losses (51.85%) yea, basically boxer was owning yellow at all the "official/important" events like osl, msl and so on, while yellow was owning boxer at the "inofficial/fun" events.
I've always thought that a lot of it has to do with Yellow aging better than Boxer. He just seems to have adapted far better to modern play, and still is in good enough condition to execute it. So far, he's 7-11(38%) in 2010, with wins against Jaedong, Leta, and Calm. With his age and limited practice time on Ace, that's a solid record, and he could probably get back up to 45 to 50% once he leaves Ace if he wanted too.
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Did the same with Jaedong and Bisu as with Flash in the post above just for fun
Jaedong losing rec vs (standard leagues only) :
TesteR
Casy
Silent_Control
free[gm]
Sheis
Stork
Flash
Rock
815
Freedom
FrOzen
BackHo
fOrGG
Tempest
firebathero
Orion
s2
Jaedong record 24.11.2010
Bisu losing rec vs (standard leagues only) :
s.s.m~[Silver]
Rumble
Goodfriend
fOrGG
RainBOw
Casy
Flash
ChRh
Stork
iloveoov
ZerO
Chalrenge
Memory
by.hero
GuemChi
Fantasy
Violet
go.go
SeCret
Bogus
Killer
Juni
Tempest
Kal
Stats
Bisu record 24.11.2010
Fun facts:
TesteR has a winning record vs both Flash and Jaedong.
Stork has a winning record vs Flash, Jaedong and Bisu. (mentioned in the thread already)
Casy, fOrGG Flash and Tempest have winning records vs both Jaedong and Bisu.
fOrGG is 5-1 against Bisu, and 4-1 against Jaedong.
Of the 7 (4P, 2T, 1Z) players Flash has losing record against 4 are retired.
Of the 17 (6P, 8T, 3Z) players Jaedong has losing record against 6(5? Casy?) are retired.
Of the 25 (9P, 10T, 6Z) players Bisu has losing record against 12(11? Casy?) are retired.
5 KT players have winning records vs Bisu(Flash,fOrGG,Tempest,Violet,Stats)
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Wait wait wait, just a hot second here
Jaedong aint no bonjwa, there can only be one
other than that, awesome thread
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EPT
