EPT[G] How to Coach a Proleague Team - Page 2
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OpticalShot
Canada6330 Posts
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SagaZ
France3460 Posts
and you're forgeting the part about giving players live games experience (see killer last season) | ||
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
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Metalwing
Turkey1038 Posts
On November 09 2010 08:50 Crunchums wrote: is 23 hours a day too hard of a schedule? my players suck, so I've been pushing them to improve Hahaha, if you are coaching MBCGame or some sort of C team, it's pretty much alright :D On November 09 2010 09:09 MisteR wrote: I know what what you're thinking. Good post. I'd say that STX SouL would benefit from your insight in what makes a team tick. If you aren't playing it already, Mystarcraft is the perfect game for you. Your line of thinking resembles that of my trainer, so I'm sure you've got a good story. I'm curious whether you are a coach in real life? I'm just your average Turkish university student who is interested in this kind of things. I played games like YuGiOh, Duel Masters, Chess, Pokemon, Football Manager competitively instead of FPS games or MMOs, so this type of mindset is familiar to me. And thanks  On November 09 2010 09:10 Carefree Me wrote: So what was Snow doing in the ace match? Giving Bisu his easiest career ace match and also semis to SKT1. On November 09 2010 09:19 ePalm wrote: The chances of Flash being sniped by a Zerg are very low. His only losses to a Zerg in the last 20 games have been to Jaedong. A Protoss sniper would make slightly more sense. Actually just planning to beat KT before ace is a better idea. 4-1STX Soul for the wondering. Of course Flash would win against Modesty. But let me tell you one thing: Last season, during the time that Flash had 20+ win streak against protoss, KT played CJ and the game went to ace match. Coach Cho did something, that you probably would not even spend time to consider: He sent a PvT sniper who was a rookie at that time being. The player is  Snow and if you look at TLPD, I'm sure you can find the game as well. But let me give you some spoilers: Flash, even though playing perfectly for that condition, lost to a Protoss player and gave his winning streak away to a rookie.For your further instance, my initial plan was of course to beat KT without going to ace match. But Woongjin neither has that potential, nor i took time to bother considering the case of +75% luckiness. Of course I'd win before ace match if Anyppi played instead of Stats or was damn sure that I could pick off Violet and fOrGG with players like PianO and Really (which are Woongjin equivalents of Bogus and FrOzen). On November 09 2010 10:17 Impervious wrote: I'd argue against it being pointless..... I was doing this type of stuff in the CSL, and I had ~80% accuracy on it. Imagine you have 4 players. The best one is 1, then 2, then 3, and the worst is 4. Your opponent has the same. Your best vs their best is an even match, it could go either way. Your 2nd vs their 2nd is also an even match, etcetera. However, if your best is facing a worse player from their team, you're more likely to win it. Same if your best is facing their third or fourth, etcetera. Therefore, the ideal way to set your lineup is to do it where you have 1v2, 2v3, 3v4, and sac the 4v1 to likely win the series in a 3-1 victory. Worst case scenario, you end up losing one of the 3 games you should win, and you get a 2-2 with a 50% shot at winning anyways. This can mean you win 3-0 as well, since it is a race to 3 wins and you don't have to play games 4 or 5. It's more complicated than that, when you have people with different strengths, different weaknesses, different map preferences, etc..... But that's the idea. I took a misfit group to the playoffs last year. And I used this type of strategy for it. It's also why I liked ICCUP as the server for the CSL, because the stats of players could be tracked and whatnot. I had some information to go by. This time around, I'm flying blind..... And I'm failing miserably (granted, it doesn't help when the average skill level of our opponents has been higher than our own in each match so far)..... But this stuff isn't pointless. Wow, a mastermind here. First, thanks for your feedback. About CSL, did you think of opening a LR thread for your games? Because I'd LOVE to follow that scene as well. On November 09 2010 13:55 SagaZ wrote: nice read, strategy against OZ isn't really that hard, it's more of a game of "so, how do we take out that damn JD??". and you're forgeting the part about giving players live games experience (see killer last season) Yeah, Winner's league game against OZ is pretty much like that. But it's not that easy for neither OZ coach nor you. Just like I explained. If on the first match, OZ sends Jaedong and you send Calm and Calm wins (presuming that Calm and Modesty focus-practised on ZvZ), this is pretty much it. You're both 1-0 ahead and against OZ without Jaedong. OZ coach will probably QQ out of the game in that situation, or he will just exploit the fact that Calm's ZvT is more horrid than HiyA's TvZ. And if Calm, in some way of oddness (or +75% luck case) takes down HiyA as well, this goes to all-kill. So, if you are OZ coach, you NEED to set the best time for Jaedong to sweep the opponent team, by removing counters (in this particular example, vZ snipers). But particular example is particular (someone has to state the obvious). And for the sake of comprehension, I never gave SKT1 as an example, because it would be like "Send Kwanro on the first round, lololol he picks off perfectman without trying, holy shit jaedong is next and he picked off kwanro, ok now let's send bisu, bisu picks off jaedong and goes for the all-kill after clean sweeping AssHoe and HiyA.". Because it does not include even 1 bit of making the best out of what you got. Because you just have the best out of what PL has got. Kwanro is the perfect winner's league scout (for teams of Woongjin's and STX's caliber) and Bisu is just able to clean sweep OZ, even without a scout. And, for that particular example, you can even use Fantasy to scout the team. Jaedong is guaranteed to come out on the 2nd set and Bisu goes with clean sweep of OZ. Live games experience is a much different thing and it has some case-specific examples as well. Let's think about the last year's PL finals. You're the SKT1 coach, down by 3-1, Flash and HoeJJa are remaining players for KT and you have Fantasy and Hyuk. In real life, KT coach sacced HoeJJa to Fantasy and Flash had the easiest game of his career against Hyuk. But, if I was the coach and sent out Hyuk, and Hyuk wins, let's check out the psychological conditions of players. Flash has just learned that he would play Fantasy in 6th set. "Lol Flash beats Fantasy ezpz" condition does not apply in this, because of the pressure factor on Flash's shoulders. He, 2 minutes ago, learned that he will play Fantasy. Even though Flash is more than capable of beating Fantasy, Fantasy wouldn't be someone that I wanted to face on 6th game of PL finals, even though I was Flash. So, for KT's side, anxiety ensures. But, Fantasy KNEW that he will need to face Flash, even when the game was 2-1, so he had a lot of time to prepare himself for the psychological condition of the game, just like you. A proper motivational boost to Fantasy against an nervous Flash is what you need to bring the finals to ace match. And on the ace match, Flash would be even more nervous because he is playing against someone who he just lost. And Fantasy would be like "I have just beaten this guy once, and this is the ace game. SO WHY NOT!!!" But again, particular example is particular. Note that I don't disagree with the live experience thing. But that is also something that you, as a coach, can fill all by a proper boost of motivation. On November 09 2010 11:57 OpticalShot wrote: Nice read, I'm pretty sure similar (if not the same) things are going through the coaches' heads as they prepare their lineups. Kind feel sorry for the OZ coach... Yeah, I felt sorry for him as well, he lost even though he picked Kal off with HiyA. On November 09 2010 09:05 Redmark wrote: so this is a pokemon analysis of proleague? oh man haven't done pokemon in a long time, all this talk of revenge-killing and checks QQ This is not directly pokemon analysis. But that terminology is copied from pokemon because it fits to this particular subject. And yeah, after reading this, I started seeing Kal as my scarf Tyranitar. On November 09 2010 13:58 Roffles wrote: You high? Cause STX sucks. Calm is a pile of trash. Don't bet on it. Especially on Calm. EDIT: I'm gonna add my coaching thoughts on OP for KHAN vs WMF. LOL, the game is already played, so I'll add MBC vs Hite Entus. | ||
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Ryo
8787 Posts
On November 09 2010 16:55 Metalwing wrote: Hahaha, if you are coaching MBCGame or some sort of C team, it's pretty much alright :D Hey, no need to bash my team to make your point okay. Clam's + Kal's combined salaries alone cover what MBCGame is paying its entire roster. My team is doing decently considering its limited resources and a horribly slumping Light. | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
Soulkey...what a baller. | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
On November 09 2010 13:58 Roffles wrote: You high? Cause STX sucks. Calm is a pile of trash. Whoa, whoa. How can you call an abercrombie model a pile of trash  | ||
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Metalwing
Turkey1038 Posts
On November 09 2010 17:19 Ryo wrote: Hey, no need to bash my team to make your point okay. Clam's + Kal's combined salaries alone cover what MBCGame is paying its entire roster. My team is doing decently considering its limited resources and a horribly slumping Light. MBCGame pays 145m to Sea and Light whereas STX pays 172m to Calm and Kal. So you're dead wrong on salary issue. I don't know about MBC's funds, but i don't think that getting 4-0'ed by ACE is anything decent. EDIT: You can check OP for some MBC action. | ||
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MisteR
Netherlands595 Posts
On November 09 2010 11:45 IntoTheEmo wrote: Oh what there's a game for this kind of thing? Mind pointing it out to me? Yeah there is a game, and you can find it on this site: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145049 | ||
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Scaramanga
Australia8091 Posts
Forgg is actually good at tvz and would be favorite over soulkey :\ hero has terrible zvz and would get owned by killer apart from that pretty nice post | ||
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
On November 09 2010 08:50 Crunchums wrote: is 23 hours a day too hard of a schedule? my players suck, so I've been pushing them to improve How to coach a team: Pro tip #1: Your team is the best fucking team in the world. End of story. If you don't believe it, your players won't believe it. I'll see you guys in the playoffs! | ||
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Metalwing
Turkey1038 Posts
On November 09 2010 19:15 Scaramanga wrote: You gotta be more realistic with how games will go and who teams need to rely on. Soulkey's good yeah but he's far from star's ace player, you'd want free or zero in an ace match vs flash anyday of the week especially on central plains Forgg is actually good at tvz and would be favorite over soulkey :\ hero has terrible zvz and would get owned by killer apart from that pretty nice post Except player specific part of your post, good points. I'll edit OP accordingly. On Soulkey: That guy has a beast ZvT and he can take both fOrGG and Flash on with enough focus-practice and I like him (I like  Yarnc as well). But yeah, ZerO and free are also good choices and ZerO can do what Soulkey can do as well.On by.hero: I know that his ZvZ is just atrocious, that's why I put Killer against him as OZ coach. But Kal wouldn't lose to HiyA so often either. That kinda neutralizes. | ||
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Ryo
8787 Posts
On November 09 2010 18:42 Metalwing wrote: MBCGame pays 145m to Sea and Light whereas STX pays 172m to Calm and Kal. So you're dead wrong on salary issue. I don't know about MBC's funds, but i don't think that getting 4-0'ed by ACE is anything decent. EDIT: You can check OP for some MBC action. Nope, MBCGame pays 140 to Sea and Light. Hyun and Saint earn about 20 each. Jaehoon earns less than Hyun and the rest of the roster are practice partners with stipends. Everyone else on last year's roster who was earning a regular salary all left. Iron, Revival to SC2 and Peace, Koala and Mvpzerg to army. Part of MBC's cost cutting measures. They only kept 6 players from last season's roster. You can't judge a team based on one result. The same 6 players play every time. That's not only stressful but it's so much easier for opposing teams to predict the line-up. | ||
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Metalwing
Turkey1038 Posts
Poll: Should I do coaching thing for more matches? Yes, it's an interesting read. (47) No, plz stop this and end our pain (27) Where did you get the idea that we give a fuck? (4) 78 total votes Your vote: Should I do coaching thing for more matches? (Vote): Yes, it's an interesting read. @Ryo: I checked out the blog about progamer salaries and i'm sure it was 145, but anyway, you are right about the payments. | ||
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sixfour
England11061 Posts
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mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
Now, what should we do against SKT? | ||
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MisteR
Netherlands595 Posts
As both MBC and you had a good line up, it seems that Hentus dropped the ball a little. I´m interested in how you would´ve lined up the Hentus players. I´ve got the feeling that they should´ve played Skyhigh and Leta as the MBC protoss aren´t that good anyway. Next time you should put up line ups for both teams. | ||
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Ryo
8787 Posts
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MisteR
Netherlands595 Posts
On November 09 2010 21:29 Ryo wrote: ^ I think you have the wrong thread here. Uh... no... | ||
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Metalwing
Turkey1038 Posts
The reason why I'm not doing this for KT vs Stars is because I already did it as an example in the OP (Srsly, I picked the same map pool and worked accordingly). On November 09 2010 21:01 mustaju wrote: What a great thread. And the STX love feels good as well. Now, what should we do against SKT? Well, imo it all comes down to a few things: 1- GooJila's performance.2- Being able to dodge Calm from  Fantasy.3- Shuttle's opponent and how he performs. Actually I like SKT1 as well, but not against my STX. I like Bisu and BeSt, but among all players I like Kal the best. So, I'm with STX on that one. And I'm definitely coaching against SKT1. On November 09 2010 21:20 MisteR wrote: It seems that MBC succeeded in sniping movie and Hogil, while Hentus succeeded in sniping Jaehoon and Hyun but somehow losing both games :S As both MBC and you had a good line up, it seems that Hentus dropped the ball a little. I´m interested in how you would´ve lined up the Hentus players. I´ve got the feeling that they should´ve played Skyhigh and Leta as the MBC protoss aren´t that good anyway. Next time you should put up line ups for both teams. I actually chose my own players with my own reasons, before the game there were my predictions and after the game there are actual Hentus matchups and my predicted results on them (in order not to create spoilers, I put on random players in possible non-played sets). | ||
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