Poll: Should I do coaching thing for more matches?
Yes, it's an interesting read. (47)
60%
No, plz stop this and end our pain (27)
35%
Where did you get the idea that we give a fuck? (4)
5%
78 total votes
Your vote: Should I do coaching thing for more matches?
(Vote): Yes, it's an interesting read. (Vote): No, plz stop this and end our pain (Vote): Where did you get the idea that we give a fuck?
Did you wonder what skills are required to coach a progaming team in Korea?
Or did you envy the coaches of proleague teams?
Or, did you ever watch a match like SKT1 vs CJ Entus 3rd match in 2009-2010 proleague playoffs and say, for example: "WTF IS SNOW DOING IN ACE MATCH !!! TO SNIPE FANTASY ?!? WHY WOULD A PERSON WITH AN OPERATIONAL BRAIN WOULD SEND FANTASY AGAINST A TEAM WHOSE 3 BEST PLAYERS ARE EITHER ZERGS OR VT SNIPERS ?!? ARE YOU IDIOT COACH CHO ?!?!" ?
So, if the answer of at least one of these questions is yes, you're at the correct place. Metalwing will teach you how to coach.
To be a Proleague coach, you need to outsmart your opponent every single time. You need to make your team practice well. You need to keep your team spirited. You need to make the best out of your roster for the every single time.
Practice Makes Perfect
So, let's begin with practice routines. I don't say that you should coach every single player all on your own. You should have race-specific assistant coaches as well. But you, a soon-to-be proleague coach, have to determine the practice routines of your players according to their roles in your team and weaknesses on their plays. For example, if you have a player like sKyHigh, Modesty or Horang2, you shouldn't make them practice anything but mirror match-ups more than 2-3 hours a day combined (assuming that each player practices 10 hours a day). But unlike 1 match-up snipers, players that are backbones of their teams, like Leta, Kal, Sea that your team depends on their good players should practice everything. 3 hours of practice should be done everyday for these players against each and every race in every single map in proleague map pool. The remaining 1 hour should be dedicated to player's specific training, like specific match-up build order or individual league. I don't know what the system works in progaming teams, but from B-teamers to best players of A team should practice with these players. For example, you're coaching Hwaseung OZ and B-team match is tomorrow, vZ sniper of your B-team wouldn't say no to some practice. Why not let him practice with Jaedong for 4 hours, or even more, on that day? I'm sure Jaedong wouldn't reject practising one of his match-ups with a vZ sniper. Especially considering the fact that besides Jaedong, Hwaseung OZ A-Team lacks a vZ sniper (srsly, neither IChooseYouMagikarp, nor AssHo are vZ snipers, PerfectSlump is perfect as ever and Chiller is the killer of OZ), so this B-teamer guy can be one of the best practice of his race that Jaedong can receive, if not the best, and practising with Jaedong is hands down the best possible vZ practice. And there is one more fact that you shouldn't forget about progamer trainings: practice is MUTUAL. So, if you make every single player on your team practice with Jaedong for a long time, the result will be 1xJaedong and an A-Team that will never lose a single game to Zergs.
Spirits, Give Me Strength !!!
When running a competitive team in anything, having a spiritted team is so important. That spirit, that enthusiasm can win you so many games. Watching Turkey's National Football Team in World Cup 2002 or European Championship 2008, or Turkey's National Basketball Team in World Cup 2010 proved this fact to me for something like 86. time. But, how can you have a number of 15-25 year old spiritted Koreans?
In my place, eating together is everything. At home, families eat together. At workplace, all colleagues eat together. That is the thing that keeps the spirit up. The thing that gives motivation to everybody. You probably may have heard that in Korean Progaming Teams, practice partners and B-Teamers don't eat with A-teamers. Well, if we're talking about some people who share the same house, practice room, people who practice together; this means that they should eat together as well. The team should also be the second family for players. Everybody should feel like they're at home. So, keeping up the team spirit starts from the practice house.
But what about matches? Near the end of season 2009-2010, STX Soul tried some extreme tactic to "maintain the team spirit" which was a vast amount of failure. Every single time a player goes into the booth for the game, it's like a penalty shootout in soccer. You know what happens during a penalty shootout. But how about the rest of the team? They should always bond together, and keep the spirit. Just like this:
Now, THIS is what I call a team spirit. Players and coaches together, watching the shooter or goalkeeper carefully. The exact same thing should apply to progaming teams as well. In this way, when a game ends, the next player will say either "I can win this game too, and you know what, I WILL WIN THIS FUCKING GAME" (if the previous player won the game) or "It doesn't matter if X lost his game just now. I'm goin for it. I can win this game, so I'm gonna do my best and I won't come out of this place before I hear my opponent typing out" (if the previous player lost). Regardless of the match result, as a coach, your mission is to give spirit to your team right after every single game of a match. For example, you're coaching STX, you're facing OZ in a Winner's League match and FrOzen has just lost the first game against Jaedong. IT DOES NOT FUCKING MATTER. It's not because he lost to Jaedong. It's because he did his best even though he lost. Results of FrOzen can be dealt with in the practice room. Right now, the only thing you need to do is to motivate FrOzen. You're just gonna say "Well done man, well done. You did everything you can, so it's not time to be sorry. Keep ya head UP", give him a massage, and what next? You're gonna say "Modesty, it's your turn. You can own this newb ezpz. I know you can do it. And if you ask my opinion, you WILL crush this newb.". You know what will happen after this talk? Modesty will go there and won't come back before he kicks the last bit of shit out of Jaedong. And suddenly, your team will change from "1-0 behind against Jaedong" to "1-1 against OZ without Jaedong in a Winner's league match". Things are DOWN FUCKING HILL FOR YOU right now. Because Killer or HiyA will possibly try to revenge-kill Modesty, and even if one of them does, you still have Calm, Kal, Shuttle with first 2 are more than capable to sweep the rest of the team. But without that good spirit, Jaedong will possibly sweep Modesty, Calm and Kal in this respective order. So, keeping the spirit is as important as providing the right practice for your team.
Masterminds, the True People Behind All Victories
Right now, what I was talking about was mostly the stuff about players. Now, this is the place where you will make the REAL difference. Let's say, you are coaching Woongjin Stars and you're gonna face KT in your next game. Let's say, the maps are:
Set 1: Empire of the Sun Set 2: Grand Line SE Set 3: Circuit Breaker Set 4: Aztec Set 5: Fortress Set 6: Benzene Set 7: Central Plains
You need to outsmart your opponent. Know what he's up to even BEFORE he's thinking. The first map is Empire of the Sun. So, what you see is nothing about that map. Almost everybody played on that map for KT. Action, Stats, Flash all played on this map. So, probabilities are limitless. Literally everybody can come on this map. Except fOrGG. He played on only Fortress this season. So, you will reserve Neo.G_Soulkey for that match. This guy will practice his vTs on 2 maps everyday: 6 hours on Fortress, 2 hours on Central Plains for 4 days until the match. So, why 2 hours on Central Plains? Because the game has a possibility to go to ace match. There will be Central Plains and Flash, a Terran player. Neo.G_Soulkey definitely counts as your ace. With some practice, Snow was able to take Flash down in an ace match. So, WHY NOT SOULKEY?
Let's say the game has begun. First set, let's first look at what we have: free, ZerO, Really, PianO, Flying, Neo.G_Soulkey, Crazy-Hydra. Soulkey won't go. Let's look at the opposing team: Flash, Stats, Violet, Action, HoeJJa, fOrGG, Anyppi. We know nothing but fOrGG. We also know that Violet didn't play at Empire, and instead he played a lot on icarus, which is not on this match's map pool. So, let's assume that Stats will come out on Grand Line SE as he played a lot on that map. So, what we actually have is Violet, Flash, Action, HoeJJa and Anyppi. Action played on that map a lot, Violet didn't play too much but his maps are out of the pool, but there is another factor, KT coach probably guesses that we won't send Neo.G_Soulkey on this map and are reserving him for Fortress. So, he may send Flash right on. Actually, without knowing what to do, assuming Flash will be the best possible option. So, we can send ZerO as well. His vT is good and vP is better compared to Soulkey. Even though we lose ZerO to Flash, we can guess better for next games. So, let's send ZerO on this first match.
ZerO < Empire of the Sun > Violet
Good, we caught him off-guard. We scored the win, more importantly, we scored a win with a guy who could possibly lose to Stats. Losing ZerO to Flash is not bad, but to Stats definitely is. So, we're good now. Next map, is the map on which Stats appeared too much. Right now, I don't think KT coach can take the risk of being down to 2-0. So, probably Stats will come out in this game. So, what do we have in our arsenal against him? Really, free, PianO and Flying are possible choices. Crazy-Hydra or Soulkey would be too stupid to send out right now. Really looks like a fair choice right now. His vP is good, he's on a shape, so let's send him.
Really < Grand Line SE > Stats
Here, KT coach did a big big blunder. Even though he equalized the score-sheet, he ran out of protosses. Anyppi would be too good for Woongjin to send out and other than him, no toss remaining. But, he still has Flash, Action, HoeJJa that can hit hard on us. Next map is circuit breaker. Both Flash and Action played on this map before. So, we just don't know anything. So, let's send out Flying to check out what's going on. We're probably gonna go down to 2-1, but it doesn't matter. Well timed free and Soulkey will still keep us up.
Flying < Circuit Breaker > Action
Well, the worse case has happened. He is up with 2-1 and he has Flash, who will probably come out in the next game as I can't imagine he will use up all his zergs right after using up all his tosses. So, I'm gonna throw another bait at Flash and try to pick off the rest.
PianO < Aztec > Flash
Now, everything is set there. Soulkey will play fOrGG in next map and free will play HoeJJa. Will he change his player on Fortress, let me think... No. HoeJJa has a horrid ZvZ and Soulkey looks much better at it. But still fOrGG can beat free, but so can HoeJJa. He's a vP sniper and free is a protoss. Go Soulkey.
Neo.G_Soulkey < Fortress > fOrGG
Neo.G_Soulkey used Ultralisks. It's super effective. fOrGG fainted. So, now it's probably free vs HoeJJa, as I don't see Anyppi coming out of nowhere. Go free.
free < Benzene > HoeJJa
Good. 3-3 now, Soulkey against Flash.
Neo.G_Soulkey < Central Plains > Flash
WOOHOO !!! That extra ZvT practice on Central Plains sure paid off !!! Soulkey used a new build order he practised all the way through those practice hours worked wonders against the newly-crowned bonjwa.
Another example, let's say, you got STX SouL. You're facing Hwaseung OZ in Winner's league. Maps:
Set 1: Benzene Set 2: Circuit Breaker Set 3: Aztec Set 4: Fortress Set 5: Central Plains Set 6: Grand Line SE Set 7: Empire of the Sun
So, what we got is: Kal, Calm, Shuttle, FrOzen, Bogus, hyvaa, hero, Classic, Modesty. Hwaseung OZ: Jaedong, HiyA, PerfectMan, BackHo, Killer, Lomo, Anytime
In winner's league, maps are less important. More important thing is checks and reverse checks as i call them. So, before the 1st set. Let's think about what can possibly come against us. I don't think OZ coach would send Jaedong right away, as he won't take the risk of Jaedong will possibly be revenge-killed in the 2nd round. So, he will probably send out a scout (check as i call). But, who may the scout be? HiyA? I don't think so. I think he'll keep him for later. Killer? No either. Because what can snipe Jaedong can snipe Killer as well. Lomo? He's actually the worst player in OZ roster. He may be the check, but he may be reverse-checked so easily by even Shuttle or Bogus or even hyvaa. PerfectMan would go down to any zerg in my line-up as well. BackHo or Anytime should be the man. But which one? Doesn't matter. Looks like by.hero even can take down any single protoss in OZ lineup. But what happens if his check turns out to be Lomo, or even HiyA? My Zergs would easily go down to HiyA. But I don't think he wants to get HiyA revenge-killed in the 2nd round, leaving Kal in booth and Calm on the lineup. Picking a zerg check is not that valuable for him, I'd lose a protoss instead of that if I were OZ's coach. So, it's set. Hero out.
by.hero < Benzene > PerfectMan
1-0. Just as I expected. He chose to lose a protoss. Let's see. I don't think that he would want to send Lomo against hero, or another protoss. HiyA would clean-sweep by.hero, but that's risky and it's still too early for HiyA. But not for Killer. I think he'll probably come with Killer to tie to 1-1 and get destroyed by Modesty to 2-1. HiyA comes to tie to 2-2, Kal makes 3-2 and he's left with Jaedong. Not bad! If both Kal and Calm lose to Jaedong, there is nothing I can do there. There is nothing for me to win this game anyway. But, what happens if Killer takes out Modesty along with by.hero? I need a backup plan for that. FrOzen takes Killer, 2-2. But he will probably lose to anything else. Classic takes Killer, 2-2. He'll lose right away to HiyA and leave me with Kal vs Jaedong with Calm out of the field. Wait a second. Why am I using Modesty in the first place? To lure HiyA and pick him with Kal. Bogus can do it even eazy-er. OK. I'm set.
by.hero < Circuit Breaker > Killer
ROFL. This is too good to be true. OZ is left with 1 zerg and they need to use their weapons right here right now.
by.hero < Aztec > HiyA
Well, I pretty much expected this. Go Kal.
Kal < Fortress > HiyA
2-2. !@^+%&^'+%. I just lost my ace player and HiyA is on the field. Oh ****. Now, I have to re-think everything. I can't send Calm. My best option will be Classic or Bogus right now. Bogus looks more solid compared to Classic in later stages. If I win, I have 2 chances against Jaedong with Bogus being a solid vZ player. So, let's do it.
Bogus < Central Plains > HiyA
Oh yeah. Just like this baby. I'm up with 3-2, and OZ has nothing to do but Jaedong. I hope one of Calm or Bogus wins against Jaedong.
Bogus < Grand Line SE > Jaedong
Expected again. Well, I still have Calm.
Calm < Empire of the Sun > Jaedong
LOL. Calm takes down dong's spire with his lings and dodges dong's every single scourge. Even though he lost the initial muta battle, he won the ground battle and overwhelmed dong's air with next muta wave. Nice one.
So, I tried to explain you, what to do in games. The ways to think during a game.
You gotta study your opponent. Read him like a book. Know what he's up to. And, always, always, ALWAYS have a secret weapon against whoever necessary. Be creative. Don't have players over specific maps which will allow them to get sniped way easier. DON'T forget to scout. Scouting is as important as it is in the game itself, if not more. Always have backup plans. Always prepare your team for the next match, but your players for the whole season.
That's all from me for now. I'll gladly take questions and comments.
EDIT: New example. Let's go on MBC vs Hite Entus, and suppose I'm coaching MBC. Well, this is gonna be tough. I said I'd do something about KHAN vs WMF, but I just realized that the game is actually played. So, what I'll do is to write names for each set and then compare them with what Entus coach sends at the end of the game.
Set 1: Fortress Set 2: Benzene Set 3: Grand Line SE Set 4: Empire of the Sun Set 5: Aztec Set 6: Icarus Set 7: Circuit Breaker
First, let's study Hite. Well, they tend to send a toss player on central plains, which is out of the map pool. So, let's look for more. Good. They have never sent a vT sniper on Benzene. Let's reserve that map for Light then. Looks like Leta plays in almost every single map. But doesn't appear on rounds 1, 3, 4. Round 1 is actually critical and can not be given to Jaehoon in any circumstances. Using up my Terran line is one of the worst possible cases. Using HyuN is risky as well, because Movie played on this map before and he may appear today as well. But, another thing: Entus sends Hydra on the first games unless the map doesn't have "Central Plains" in its name. Now, sending Jaehoon and Tyson are out of the question. HyuN and Saint don't win too much ZvZ as well and Hydra has an outstanding vT. If I send Light out in the 1st game and he loses, that would be a huge blow. So, I think it's pretty much decided. I'll send HyuN for the first game. He may deal with Hydra or Horang2 in the first game. As long term, I'll try to dodge my 2 best players Sea and Light from Snow and sKyHigh. Giving Jaehoon to Leta would be good too.
DEAD ON.. HyuN would probably beat the shit out of HoGiL. As in the real game, he won a ZvZ against Hydra.
Second game, this actually depends on the outcome of the 1st game so much. But I pretty much know that no vT snipers come out on this one. Sea or Light. Let's decide. Actually, Hydra appeared once on this map. But also, 2nd sets are mostly where Leta comes out. So, looks like this is decided. Let's send Jaehoon.
Another DEAD ON.. Jaehoon would probably win this because he just owned a PvP sniper and Movie also lost a PvP in the real scenario.
Let's look at MY trends right now. Because I am coach Mumyung, I always send Sea on Grand Line SE or Circuit Breaker. Since Circuit Breaker is the ace game map, Entus coach KimDongWoo would probably assume that I'm going with Sea right now, so he'll send a vT sniper. Let's look at what he has as vT snipers. Snow, sKyHigh, Leta, Hydra nvm, he played on the 1st game. Sea is weak against both vT and vP compared to vZ. Sending sKyHigh would be too risky for KDW, but also he won't lose the game even if he loses to Sea and Light ONLY. And I don't think he sends out Leta as well, because if he sends Leta, and loses, it's a major blow to Hite. He may also send Snow. But, I think he will reserve him for something else. Because unlike sKyHigh and Leta, he can play other matchups than vT. Anyway, I have enough number of reasons to send a protoss to this game. Tyson, you're out.
Ouch.. Still, nonetheless I'm on the front by 2-1.
Hahahaha, I can hear KDW saying "!@^#$'^+#$". As I am Mumyung, I should go with Sea&Light on next 2 sets. But I'm also planning to change. I'm pretending like I am 1-2 right now and I dodged Leta and Snow. So, sKyHigh appeared a lot on 4th sets as well, so let's send out another zerg. Saint, it's you.
Ace match. Probably, I'm gonna play Leta on this one, but Circuit Breaker is a map that sKyHigh played as well. Nonetheless, both are Terran players. In my ace duo, Light did not play on CB, but Sea did. And Sea is better in terms of vT compared to Light. Sea, it all comes down to this.
I know what what you're thinking. Good post. I'd say that STX SouL would benefit from your insight in what makes a team tick. If you aren't playing it already, Mystarcraft is the perfect game for you. Your line of thinking resembles that of my trainer, so I'm sure you've got a good story. I'm curious whether you are a coach in real life?
The chances of Flash being sniped by a Zerg are very low. His only losses to a Zerg in the last 20 games have been to Jaedong. A Protoss sniper would make slightly more sense. Actually just planning to beat KT before ace is a better idea. 4-1STX Soul for the wondering.
On November 09 2010 09:10 Carefree Me wrote: So what was Snow doing in the ace match?
Well, if Effort isn't feeling good, old CJ has only one other option and that is Snow. Given that Effort retired afterwards, chances are he wasn't ready for that ace match. Snow is very strong against terran, so Fantasy he would likely beat. Bisu is the other serious possibility, and against Bisu there was besides Effort no other option but Snow. Iris, Skyhigh, Hydra, and Movie were not capable of beating Bisu. Now that I think of it, one other possibility was in fact Hydra, as he's shown to be good in both zvt and zvp. But in terms of raw skill it was either Effort or Snow and for some unknown reason it was not Effort. Take it from me that if Effort would've been in top form, he would've played. It wouldn't have been the first time that all CJ's hopes rested on his shoulders.
On November 09 2010 09:16 Sentient66 wrote: Wow, this is extremely well-written and insightful. Thanks for putting the effort into doing this!
Sarcasm much? It has typo's and painfully bad grammar throughout. I'm not sure what it's meant to achieve... it's half-humorous I guess. I'm also fairly sure proleague lineups are submitted in advance (at least they used to be) so the analysis of set by set decisionmaking is pretty misguided.
On November 09 2010 09:53 CanucksJC wrote: Pretty entertaining to read... pretty pointless otherwise
I'd argue against it being pointless..... I was doing this type of stuff in the CSL, and I had ~80% accuracy on it.
Imagine you have 4 players. The best one is 1, then 2, then 3, and the worst is 4. Your opponent has the same.
Your best vs their best is an even match, it could go either way. Your 2nd vs their 2nd is also an even match, etcetera. However, if your best is facing a worse player from their team, you're more likely to win it. Same if your best is facing their third or fourth, etcetera.
Therefore, the ideal way to set your lineup is to do it where you have 1v2, 2v3, 3v4, and sac the 4v1 to likely win the series in a 3-1 victory. Worst case scenario, you end up losing one of the 3 games you should win, and you get a 2-2 with a 50% shot at winning anyways. This can mean you win 3-0 as well, since it is a race to 3 wins and you don't have to play games 4 or 5.
It's more complicated than that, when you have people with different strengths, different weaknesses, different map preferences, etc..... But that's the idea. I took a misfit group to the playoffs last year. And I used this type of strategy for it.
It's also why I liked ICCUP as the server for the CSL, because the stats of players could be tracked and whatnot. I had some information to go by. This time around, I'm flying blind..... And I'm failing miserably (granted, it doesn't help when the average skill level of our opponents has been higher than our own in each match so far).....
On November 09 2010 09:53 CanucksJC wrote: Pretty entertaining to read... pretty pointless otherwise
I'd argue against it being pointless..... I was doing this type of stuff in the CSL, and I had ~80% accuracy on it.
Imagine you have 4 players. The best one is 1, then 2, then 3, and the worst is 4. Your opponent has the same.
Your best vs their best is an even match, it could go either way. Your 2nd vs their 2nd is also an even match, etcetera. However, if your best is facing a worse player from their team, you're more likely to win it. Same if your best is facing their third or fourth, etcetera.
Therefore, the ideal way to set your lineup is to do it where you have 1v2, 2v3, 3v4, and sac the 4v1 to likely win the series in a 3-1 victory. Worst case scenario, you end up losing one of the 3 games you should win, and you get a 2-2 with a 50% shot at winning anyways. This can mean you win 3-0 as well, since it is a race to 3 wins and you don't have to play games 4 or 5.
It's more complicated than that, when you have people with different strengths, different weaknesses, different map preferences, etc..... But that's the idea. I took a misfit group to the playoffs last year. And I used this type of strategy for it.
It's also why I liked ICCUP as the server for the CSL, because the stats of players could be tracked and whatnot. I had some information to go by. This time around, I'm flying blind..... And I'm failing miserably (granted, it doesn't help when the average skill level of our opponents has been higher than our own in each match so far).....
But this stuff isn't pointless.
What I meant is, stuff like this is pretty cool, but I could say anything about a given team and players and manipulate the results so what I say makes sense. ex) STX is probably going to send out Kal on this map but lolol I has Jaedong, he's going to sweep ya'll, Kal, Calm, and whoever that follows in that order. =/
On November 09 2010 09:19 ePalm wrote: The chances of Flash being sniped by a Zerg are very low. His only losses to a Zerg in the last 20 games have been to Jaedong. A Protoss sniper would make slightly more sense. Actually just planning to beat KT before ace is a better idea. 4-1STX Soul for the wondering.
On November 09 2010 09:09 MisteR wrote: I know what what you're thinking. Good post. I'd say that STX SouL would benefit from your insight in what makes a team tick. If you aren't playing it already, Mystarcraft is the perfect game for you. Your line of thinking resembles that of my trainer, so I'm sure you've got a good story. I'm curious whether you are a coach in real life?
Oh what there's a game for this kind of thing? Mind pointing it out to me?
Lots of effort into that write-up, never thought of it that way before. Most of the teams you covered seem to be all about sniping and using their 1-2 aces carefully. What if you were to do SKT1? They have sooo much talent I'd like to see you play the coach of that, they just seem to be steamrolling at the moment rather than sniping, at least to me, the uninformed
Nice read, I'm pretty sure similar (if not the same) things are going through the coaches' heads as they prepare their lineups. Kind feel sorry for the OZ coach...
nice read, strategy against OZ isn't really that hard, it's more of a game of "so, how do we take out that damn JD??". and you're forgeting the part about giving players live games experience (see killer last season)
On November 09 2010 08:50 Crunchums wrote: is 23 hours a day too hard of a schedule? my players suck, so I've been pushing them to improve
Hahaha, if you are coaching MBCGame or some sort of C team, it's pretty much alright :D
On November 09 2010 09:09 MisteR wrote: I know what what you're thinking. Good post. I'd say that STX SouL would benefit from your insight in what makes a team tick. If you aren't playing it already, Mystarcraft is the perfect game for you. Your line of thinking resembles that of my trainer, so I'm sure you've got a good story. I'm curious whether you are a coach in real life?
I'm just your average Turkish university student who is interested in this kind of things. I played games like YuGiOh, Duel Masters, Chess, Pokemon, Football Manager competitively instead of FPS games or MMOs, so this type of mindset is familiar to me. And thanks
On November 09 2010 09:10 Carefree Me wrote: So what was Snow doing in the ace match?
Giving Bisu his easiest career ace match and also semis to SKT1.
On November 09 2010 09:19 ePalm wrote: The chances of Flash being sniped by a Zerg are very low. His only losses to a Zerg in the last 20 games have been to Jaedong. A Protoss sniper would make slightly more sense. Actually just planning to beat KT before ace is a better idea. 4-1STX Soul for the wondering.
Of course Flash would win against Modesty. But let me tell you one thing: Last season, during the time that Flash had 20+ win streak against protoss, KT played CJ and the game went to ace match. Coach Cho did something, that you probably would not even spend time to consider: He sent a PvT sniper who was a rookie at that time being. The player is Snow and if you look at TLPD, I'm sure you can find the game as well. But let me give you some spoilers: Flash, even though playing perfectly for that condition, lost to a Protoss player and gave his winning streak away to a rookie.
For your further instance, my initial plan was of course to beat KT without going to ace match. But Woongjin neither has that potential, nor i took time to bother considering the case of +75% luckiness. Of course I'd win before ace match if Anyppi played instead of Stats or was damn sure that I could pick off Violet and fOrGG with players like PianO and Really (which are Woongjin equivalents of Bogus and FrOzen).
On November 09 2010 09:53 CanucksJC wrote: Pretty entertaining to read... pretty pointless otherwise
I'd argue against it being pointless..... I was doing this type of stuff in the CSL, and I had ~80% accuracy on it.
Imagine you have 4 players. The best one is 1, then 2, then 3, and the worst is 4. Your opponent has the same.
Your best vs their best is an even match, it could go either way. Your 2nd vs their 2nd is also an even match, etcetera. However, if your best is facing a worse player from their team, you're more likely to win it. Same if your best is facing their third or fourth, etcetera.
Therefore, the ideal way to set your lineup is to do it where you have 1v2, 2v3, 3v4, and sac the 4v1 to likely win the series in a 3-1 victory. Worst case scenario, you end up losing one of the 3 games you should win, and you get a 2-2 with a 50% shot at winning anyways. This can mean you win 3-0 as well, since it is a race to 3 wins and you don't have to play games 4 or 5.
It's more complicated than that, when you have people with different strengths, different weaknesses, different map preferences, etc..... But that's the idea. I took a misfit group to the playoffs last year. And I used this type of strategy for it.
It's also why I liked ICCUP as the server for the CSL, because the stats of players could be tracked and whatnot. I had some information to go by. This time around, I'm flying blind..... And I'm failing miserably (granted, it doesn't help when the average skill level of our opponents has been higher than our own in each match so far).....
But this stuff isn't pointless.
Wow, a mastermind here. First, thanks for your feedback. About CSL, did you think of opening a LR thread for your games? Because I'd LOVE to follow that scene as well.
On November 09 2010 13:55 SagaZ wrote: nice read, strategy against OZ isn't really that hard, it's more of a game of "so, how do we take out that damn JD??". and you're forgeting the part about giving players live games experience (see killer last season)
Yeah, Winner's league game against OZ is pretty much like that. But it's not that easy for neither OZ coach nor you. Just like I explained. If on the first match, OZ sends Jaedong and you send Calm and Calm wins (presuming that Calm and Modesty focus-practised on ZvZ), this is pretty much it. You're both 1-0 ahead and against OZ without Jaedong. OZ coach will probably QQ out of the game in that situation, or he will just exploit the fact that Calm's ZvT is more horrid than HiyA's TvZ. And if Calm, in some way of oddness (or +75% luck case) takes down HiyA as well, this goes to all-kill. So, if you are OZ coach, you NEED to set the best time for Jaedong to sweep the opponent team, by removing counters (in this particular example, vZ snipers).
But particular example is particular (someone has to state the obvious). And for the sake of comprehension, I never gave SKT1 as an example, because it would be like "Send Kwanro on the first round, lololol he picks off perfectman without trying, holy shit jaedong is next and he picked off kwanro, ok now let's send bisu, bisu picks off jaedong and goes for the all-kill after clean sweeping AssHoe and HiyA.". Because it does not include even 1 bit of making the best out of what you got. Because you just have the best out of what PL has got. Kwanro is the perfect winner's league scout (for teams of Woongjin's and STX's caliber) and Bisu is just able to clean sweep OZ, even without a scout. And, for that particular example, you can even use Fantasy to scout the team. Jaedong is guaranteed to come out on the 2nd set and Bisu goes with clean sweep of OZ.
Live games experience is a much different thing and it has some case-specific examples as well. Let's think about the last year's PL finals. You're the SKT1 coach, down by 3-1, Flash and HoeJJa are remaining players for KT and you have Fantasy and Hyuk. In real life, KT coach sacced HoeJJa to Fantasy and Flash had the easiest game of his career against Hyuk. But, if I was the coach and sent out Hyuk, and Hyuk wins, let's check out the psychological conditions of players. Flash has just learned that he would play Fantasy in 6th set. "Lol Flash beats Fantasy ezpz" condition does not apply in this, because of the pressure factor on Flash's shoulders. He, 2 minutes ago, learned that he will play Fantasy. Even though Flash is more than capable of beating Fantasy, Fantasy wouldn't be someone that I wanted to face on 6th game of PL finals, even though I was Flash. So, for KT's side, anxiety ensures. But, Fantasy KNEW that he will need to face Flash, even when the game was 2-1, so he had a lot of time to prepare himself for the psychological condition of the game, just like you. A proper motivational boost to Fantasy against an nervous Flash is what you need to bring the finals to ace match. And on the ace match, Flash would be even more nervous because he is playing against someone who he just lost. And Fantasy would be like "I have just beaten this guy once, and this is the ace game. SO WHY NOT!!!" But again, particular example is particular.
Note that I don't disagree with the live experience thing. But that is also something that you, as a coach, can fill all by a proper boost of motivation.
On November 09 2010 11:57 OpticalShot wrote: Nice read, I'm pretty sure similar (if not the same) things are going through the coaches' heads as they prepare their lineups. Kind feel sorry for the OZ coach...
Yeah, I felt sorry for him as well, he lost even though he picked Kal off with HiyA.
On November 09 2010 09:05 Redmark wrote: so this is a pokemon analysis of proleague?
oh man haven't done pokemon in a long time, all this talk of revenge-killing and checks QQ
This is not directly pokemon analysis. But that terminology is copied from pokemon because it fits to this particular subject. And yeah, after reading this, I started seeing Kal as my scarf Tyranitar.
On November 09 2010 13:58 Roffles wrote: You high? Cause STX sucks. Calm is a pile of trash.
Don't bet on it. Especially on Calm.
EDIT: I'm gonna add my coaching thoughts on OP for KHAN vs WMF. LOL, the game is already played, so I'll add MBC vs Hite Entus.
On November 09 2010 08:50 Crunchums wrote: is 23 hours a day too hard of a schedule? my players suck, so I've been pushing them to improve
Hahaha, if you are coaching MBCGame or some sort of C team, it's pretty much alright :D
Hey, no need to bash my team to make your point okay. Clam's + Kal's combined salaries alone cover what MBCGame is paying its entire roster. My team is doing decently considering its limited resources and a horribly slumping Light.
On November 09 2010 08:50 Crunchums wrote: is 23 hours a day too hard of a schedule? my players suck, so I've been pushing them to improve
Hahaha, if you are coaching MBCGame or some sort of C team, it's pretty much alright :D
Hey, no need to bash my team to make your point okay. Clam's + Kal's combined salaries alone cover what MBCGame is paying its entire roster. My team is doing decently considering its limited resources and a horribly slumping Light.
MBCGame pays 145m to Sea and Light whereas STX pays 172m to Calm and Kal. So you're dead wrong on salary issue. I don't know about MBC's funds, but i don't think that getting 4-0'ed by ACE is anything decent.
You gotta be more realistic with how games will go and who teams need to rely on. Soulkey's good yeah but he's far from star's ace player, you'd want free or zero in an ace match vs flash anyday of the week especially on central plains Forgg is actually good at tvz and would be favorite over soulkey :\ hero has terrible zvz and would get owned by killer apart from that pretty nice post
On November 09 2010 08:50 Crunchums wrote: is 23 hours a day too hard of a schedule? my players suck, so I've been pushing them to improve
How to coach a team: Pro tip #1: Your team is the best fucking team in the world. End of story. If you don't believe it, your players won't believe it.
On November 09 2010 19:15 Scaramanga wrote: You gotta be more realistic with how games will go and who teams need to rely on. Soulkey's good yeah but he's far from star's ace player, you'd want free or zero in an ace match vs flash anyday of the week especially on central plains Forgg is actually good at tvz and would be favorite over soulkey :\ hero has terrible zvz and would get owned by killer apart from that pretty nice post
Except player specific part of your post, good points. I'll edit OP accordingly.
On Soulkey: That guy has a beast ZvT and he can take both fOrGG and Flash on with enough focus-practice and I like him (I like Yarnc as well). But yeah, ZerO and free are also good choices and ZerO can do what Soulkey can do as well.
On by.hero: I know that his ZvZ is just atrocious, that's why I put Killer against him as OZ coach. But Kal wouldn't lose to HiyA so often either. That kinda neutralizes.
On November 09 2010 08:50 Crunchums wrote: is 23 hours a day too hard of a schedule? my players suck, so I've been pushing them to improve
Hahaha, if you are coaching MBCGame or some sort of C team, it's pretty much alright :D
Hey, no need to bash my team to make your point okay. Clam's + Kal's combined salaries alone cover what MBCGame is paying its entire roster. My team is doing decently considering its limited resources and a horribly slumping Light.
MBCGame pays 145m to Sea and Light whereas STX pays 172m to Calm and Kal. So you're dead wrong on salary issue. I don't know about MBC's funds, but i don't think that getting 4-0'ed by ACE is anything decent.
EDIT: You can check OP for some MBC action.
Nope, MBCGame pays 140 to Sea and Light. Hyun and Saint earn about 20 each. Jaehoon earns less than Hyun and the rest of the roster are practice partners with stipends. Everyone else on last year's roster who was earning a regular salary all left. Iron, Revival to SC2 and Peace, Koala and Mvpzerg to army. Part of MBC's cost cutting measures. They only kept 6 players from last season's roster.
You can't judge a team based on one result. The same 6 players play every time. That's not only stressful but it's so much easier for opposing teams to predict the line-up.
It seems that MBC succeeded in sniping movie and Hogil, while Hentus succeeded in sniping Jaehoon and Hyun but somehow losing both games :S
As both MBC and you had a good line up, it seems that Hentus dropped the ball a little. I´m interested in how you would´ve lined up the Hentus players. I´ve got the feeling that they should´ve played Skyhigh and Leta as the MBC protoss aren´t that good anyway. Next time you should put up line ups for both teams.
There are more NOes in poll than YES, which turns me on for doing, but this time I won't be doing a pre work besides studying the opponent. This time, I'm going to choose ACE against SKT1. And, on game time (I hope I can wake up or stay awake for that) I'll post my lineup for each round on this topic, but not on op this time.
The reason why I'm not doing this for KT vs Stars is because I already did it as an example in the OP (Srsly, I picked the same map pool and worked accordingly).
On November 09 2010 21:01 mustaju wrote: What a great thread. And the STX love feels good as well. Now, what should we do against SKT?
Well, imo it all comes down to a few things:
1- GooJila's performance. 2- Being able to dodge Calm from Fantasy. 3- Shuttle's opponent and how he performs.
Actually I like SKT1 as well, but not against my STX. I like Bisu and BeSt, but among all players I like Kal the best. So, I'm with STX on that one. And I'm definitely coaching against SKT1.
On November 09 2010 21:20 MisteR wrote: It seems that MBC succeeded in sniping movie and Hogil, while Hentus succeeded in sniping Jaehoon and Hyun but somehow losing both games :S
As both MBC and you had a good line up, it seems that Hentus dropped the ball a little. I´m interested in how you would´ve lined up the Hentus players. I´ve got the feeling that they should´ve played Skyhigh and Leta as the MBC protoss aren´t that good anyway. Next time you should put up line ups for both teams.
I actually chose my own players with my own reasons, before the game there were my predictions and after the game there are actual Hentus matchups and my predicted results on them (in order not to create spoilers, I put on random players in possible non-played sets).
On November 09 2010 09:53 CanucksJC wrote: Pretty entertaining to read... pretty pointless otherwise
I'd argue against it being pointless..... I was doing this type of stuff in the CSL, and I had ~80% accuracy on it.
Imagine you have 4 players. The best one is 1, then 2, then 3, and the worst is 4. Your opponent has the same.
Your best vs their best is an even match, it could go either way. Your 2nd vs their 2nd is also an even match, etcetera. However, if your best is facing a worse player from their team, you're more likely to win it. Same if your best is facing their third or fourth, etcetera.
Therefore, the ideal way to set your lineup is to do it where you have 1v2, 2v3, 3v4, and sac the 4v1 to likely win the series in a 3-1 victory. Worst case scenario, you end up losing one of the 3 games you should win, and you get a 2-2 with a 50% shot at winning anyways. This can mean you win 3-0 as well, since it is a race to 3 wins and you don't have to play games 4 or 5.
It's more complicated than that, when you have people with different strengths, different weaknesses, different map preferences, etc..... But that's the idea. I took a misfit group to the playoffs last year. And I used this type of strategy for it.
It's also why I liked ICCUP as the server for the CSL, because the stats of players could be tracked and whatnot. I had some information to go by. This time around, I'm flying blind..... And I'm failing miserably (granted, it doesn't help when the average skill level of our opponents has been higher than our own in each match so far).....
But this stuff isn't pointless.
Wow, a mastermind here. First, thanks for your feedback. About CSL, did you think of opening a LR thread for your games? Because I'd LOVE to follow that scene as well.
Truth be told, once you're really good at anything, practicing 10 hours a day is a complete waste of time unless the environment changes so fast you're always 'new' to it.
On November 09 2010 09:53 CanucksJC wrote: Pretty entertaining to read... pretty pointless otherwise
I'd argue against it being pointless..... I was doing this type of stuff in the CSL, and I had ~80% accuracy on it.
Imagine you have 4 players. The best one is 1, then 2, then 3, and the worst is 4. Your opponent has the same.
Your best vs their best is an even match, it could go either way. Your 2nd vs their 2nd is also an even match, etcetera. However, if your best is facing a worse player from their team, you're more likely to win it. Same if your best is facing their third or fourth, etcetera.
Therefore, the ideal way to set your lineup is to do it where you have 1v2, 2v3, 3v4, and sac the 4v1 to likely win the series in a 3-1 victory. Worst case scenario, you end up losing one of the 3 games you should win, and you get a 2-2 with a 50% shot at winning anyways. This can mean you win 3-0 as well, since it is a race to 3 wins and you don't have to play games 4 or 5.
It's more complicated than that, when you have people with different strengths, different weaknesses, different map preferences, etc..... But that's the idea. I took a misfit group to the playoffs last year. And I used this type of strategy for it.
It's also why I liked ICCUP as the server for the CSL, because the stats of players could be tracked and whatnot. I had some information to go by. This time around, I'm flying blind..... And I'm failing miserably (granted, it doesn't help when the average skill level of our opponents has been higher than our own in each match so far).....
But this stuff isn't pointless.
Wow, a mastermind here. First, thanks for your feedback. About CSL, did you think of opening a LR thread for your games? Because I'd LOVE to follow that scene as well.
As for a LR thread - there aren't enough followers to really justify it. But if you search CSL on TL, you'll find a lot of info anyways.
Among my Firefox bookmarks now. Call it BW, call it SC2. I like it. I'll definitely check this.
On November 10 2010 02:33 Slardarxt wrote: Good read hojam, how are you doing? Where in Turkey are you from? Spent the summer in buyukgada and around :D
Fine hocam I'm from Ankara, the capital city, at METU (Middle East Technical University). I heard Büyükada is a nice place, but had no chance to see. Nice to see people like Jibba around. Shoutout to Jibba btw
On November 10 2010 02:53 n0xi3 wrote: Interesting read... kind of confusing at some parts.. but i think that is more or less how the post is structured. Well done!
I agree. These are really fun to read but I'm left confused as to whether the player you would have sent actually did play, or you are forecasting match results. Or are you looking at matches that you know the results of already, and just analyzing them ex post?
On November 10 2010 02:23 Roaming wrote: Truth be told, once you're really good at anything, practicing 10 hours a day is a complete waste of time unless the environment changes so fast you're always 'new' to it.
Beginning a falsehood with 'truth be told' is kinda misleading. 10 hours practice time is probably not the best way to improve but it's far from a complete waste.
On November 10 2010 02:53 n0xi3 wrote: Interesting read... kind of confusing at some parts.. but i think that is more or less how the post is structured. Well done!
I agree. These are really fun to read but I'm left confused as to whether the player you would have sent actually did play, or you are forecasting match results. Or are you looking at matches that you know the results of already, and just analyzing them ex post?
My sample matches:
MBC vs Hentus: Played yesterday, results were forecast except 1 (that 1 match was played by exact same players at the exact same map). My selection of players played against Hentus players who really showed up at that match at exactly that sets, results are "logical forecast". That means I just did the assumption of "If this protoss player beats a pvp sniper, he can also beat another protoss who sucks at pvp and did the exact same strategy in his irl pvp game as the pvp sniper" at some points. Or "If this player wins a ZvZ against a stronger ZvZer, he could easily pwn the weaker one".
Look at spoilers for more detailed "logical forecast":
The statement of: "If Jaehoon can beat Horang2 with a strategy that Movie has just lost to in a PvP against Tyson, he would lose to Jaehoon as well" seems logical to me, what do you think?
Or, "if HyuN beats Hydra in a ZvZ, he could own HoGiL so badly that HoGiL wouldn't be able to sit for 3 days" assumption doesn't seem too insane either, agree?
Others were just particular examples about fictionary games.
In a world that Jaehoon beats Horang2 in a televised PvP, by.hero can beat Killer or Calm can beat Jaedong or HiyA can beat Kal. All these 4 cases carry exact same oddness imo. Or "if a rookie snow can beat Flash in an ace game, a well trained soulkey can do it as well" statement also seems logical.
On November 10 2010 11:59 TheNessman wrote: Interesting and educating read man, where do you chat during games? I would be interested in seeing more of your opinions.
Also, i dream of the day where perfectman and killer have > 50% winning percentages, that is the day that oz will rule (proleague 011-012.)
Edit: Man oz sucked before so i didn't care, but now that they show some promise I am rooting for them in all of my posts.... Lol sorry.
I'm doing ACE vs SKT1 right now, I don't hang around on stream chats or tl irc whatsoever. But I'll be talking about game here and I'll be also here in game too.
So, let's come to today's match, where I'm coaching ACE against SKT1. Maps:
Set 1: Central Plains Set 2: Aztec Set 3: Fortress Set 4: Icarus Set 5: Benzene Set 6: Grand Line SE Set 7: Empire of the Sun
So, Central Plains is a map that BeSt showed up often on. But, SKT's grand total of 0 protoss starters make me doubt if BeSt will really show up or not. This map wasn't played by any Terran players whatsoever, so i think there are 2 possible cases for this: A zerg player will play or BeSt will play. And, this makes me re-think the dodging strategy, and either an SKT zerg or BeSt doesn't matter. I'm going for the win. YellOw, you're out on first set.
My view on this set: Well, I did the exact same thing as the ACE coach, but this set makes me feel awkward. Yes, I may score the win, but even if I do, SKT still has better players and I just used my best Zerg. My goals for other sets:
1- Create a M18M vs Fantasy set. 2- Create a M18M vs Bisu set. Dodge Bisu. 3- Create a BeSt vs GoRush set. 4- Create a FBH vs SKTZERG set. Nvm, I just used him to dodge Bisu. I wish I didn't.
If I can do either 3 of them, and my players win, I win the game as well.
ROFL I'M CHANGING THIS TO FBH WTFPWNZ BISU AND GETS OUT OF THE BOOTH LIKE A BAWS.
Reference: FBH vs BeSt on Fortress
3rd set:
Looks like after Sun's win, SKT is going for 4-0, and they got reasons for it. I should have predicted that one and put Ruby on game 2. In this set, I think Fantasy will play. So, my choice is M18M
EDIT for 3rd set:
I'm making blunders over and over and over. I didn't pick any correct players after Yellow and I'm gonna get 4-0'ed. At least this is the look right now.
I have no friggin idea about how this would result. But DJW is not living his best day ever. He lost a PvT to FBH. M18M actually has a chance in this.
4th set:
Zerg? Fantasy? Map? Icarus.. Well, I don't take risks. Go Much
EDIT for 4th set:
This ends up being Much vs Soo_SKT. I can't forecast its ending, but Much has a losing PvZ streak and he's below %50. Still, I think he'd do better than ggaemo.
5th set:
This one may be a fakeout as SKT coach may try to overpredict me, the ACE coach and send another zerg. Anyway. GoRush, it's go time.
EDIT for 5th set:
This ended up being Fantasy and I feel like I'm thinking too much or Coach Park thinking too little. Because if Park thought the same as I wanted him to think, he would catch PvT sniper M18M, who is the actual choice of ACE coach, with Kwanro like a sitting duck.
On November 09 2010 09:16 Sentient66 wrote: Wow, this is extremely well-written and insightful. Thanks for putting the effort into doing this!
I'm also fairly sure proleague lineups are submitted in advance (at least they used to be) so the analysis of set by set decisionmaking is pretty misguided.
Players are picked on a match by match basis ever since the match-fixing business.
you need to take into consideration that some maps are just imbalanced and some players may have better skills in some matchups than their statistics suggest. look past the stats and at the games if you really want an accurate assessment.
On November 10 2010 16:43 seRapH wrote: you need to take into consideration that some maps are just imbalanced and some players may have better skills in some matchups than their statistics suggest. look past the stats and at the games if you really want an accurate assessment.
awful read. first thing that cought my eyes was this line "...IChooseYouMagikarp, nor AssHo are vZ snipers, PerfectSlump..." try to learn some respect dude.
Yeah, that Time has come. You saw that SKT1 has a good taste when it comes to Victory, but me as the STX coach will make them taste different things. Like defeat.
Set 1: < Central Plains > Set 2: < Aztec > Set 3: < Fortress > Set 4: < Icarus > Set 5: < Benzene > Set 6: < Grand Line SE > Set 7: < Empire of the Sun >
Map 1: First map is the map that coach Park only sends Protoss. The last time, it was By.Sun vs YellOw and By.Sun won by outrageously high number of cannons. Actually, coach Park is not the only one. Coaches send hardly any zergs or terrans on this map. This map has only 3 games that both players aren't protosses. Even Stork won against Jaedong on this map. Coach Park would guess that Shuttle will be the player to be sent by STX. But, I don't think he will risk either Bisu or BeSt here and just dodge this map with By.Sun. But, when I look at the other maps, I don't see anything that BeSt may play on. So, this map will probably be a BeSt vs Shuttle and there is a possibility that these 2 players will make more units than rest of the players combined. Still, go Shuttle.
Note: On this map, 19 PvPs are played and 6 of them belongs to Shuttle.
Map 2: If coach park plays a terran on this map, I'll eat my hat. Or first, buy a hat and then eat it. Terran winrate on this map is below 37% for both non-mirror matchups. ZvP is above %50 as well, but not against Bisu. He won his both PvZs on this map and PvT here is just ezpz. Even BeSt won against a ZvP sniper, namely HoeJJa on this map. But I don't think that I'll see BeSt here, because coach Park will be smart enough to think that Calm would kick the shit out of BeSt. But, there is another thing: Kal has won against Bisu on this map in this season. The player actually depends on the outcome of the first game, but still we shouldn't ignore the probability of an SKT zerg popping out. So, against an SKT zerg or BeSt, Calm would be a good idea. But against Bisu, Calm would be a bad idea. But, Bisu played more on this map than all SKT zergs combined. So, this should be the battle of aces. Kal should be sent on.
Map 3: This is the map for Fantasy. I doubt that he can make himself a better map. Terran has more than 50% winrate in both non-mirror matchups and TvZ is 15-6. I don't think that coach Park will change his attitude or overcommit himself to thinking and he'll just send Fantasy on. Bogus is actually worth trying here.
Map 4: This map is actually a Zerg map, just like Aztec. And Terran would be a stupid choice, just like on Aztec. I just have no idea about what to do right now. Just nothing. But, SKT tends to send Zergs on this map. So, Modesty or Calm actually have good chances. I send Modesty here.
Map 5: Even though this map looks like a Terran map, people send zergs here. But, Fantasy played 2 TvPs recently on this map, but still SKT coach would assume that there will be no TvPs here. And Fantasy has a high probability to already have played up to this point. If he really has played, SKT will send either another zerg or Canata. So, I'll send either Classic or Calm. But I'm pretty much undecided.
Map 6: This map looks like a Terran map as well. And, if canata hasn't played on Map 5, I'm sure he'll be here. Classic-Calm again.
i don't really disagree with your player choices for stx, but for skt i definitely do.
central plains is going to be either best or by.sun. you claim that best has no other possible map, but i believe park will be heavily considering sending by.sun here and best on fortress.
aztec is very likely to be bisu. i'd give it 60% chance to be bisu. the remaining 40% i'll say will be s2, soo, or kwanro
fortress could be either best or fantasy. if park plays it the way i'd play it, this would be best
icarus is a tricky map, but i like the idea of sending kwanro here, or soo. i would not trust canata here. bisu too if he wasn't on aztec
benzene i still believe is completely terran favored. i'd save fantasy for this set. but i wouldnt be surprised to see a zerg or canata, or even ssak
i hate the idea of sending protoss on grand line. zerg would be my choice.
i can't call ZvZ or PvP, but this is the likely situation. Bisu/Kal in the MSL wildcard were the results of not taking it very seriously. and no, my lineups are not an attempt to snipe every one of your players
Wow, this turned into something that I'd really want it to turn into. Actually even if you don't include the wildcard results, Kal is 3-2 against Bisu and 3-0 in last 3 games. About sending BeSt on Fortress, yeah. This map is the one that he owned fOrGG on last year's PL finals. But, he also lost to FBH on this map in SKT's last PL match, and STX Terran line up is doing good right now and they definitely have better TvPers than FBH, but they are not even close to fOrGG's TvP.
But, about thinking all of these, you got a point. Throwing BeSt against Shuttle is less reliable than throwing him against an STX Terran. But again, Park may go for all-in and send BeSt on Shuttle and Canata on Fortress, or Fantasy on Fortress, Canata on Benzene. Still, you got better choices than Park.
On November 09 2010 09:53 CanucksJC wrote: Pretty entertaining to read... pretty pointless otherwise
Therefore, the ideal way to set your lineup is to do it where you have 1v2, 2v3, 3v4, and sac the 4v1 to likely win the series in a 3-1 victory. Worst case scenario, you end up losing one of the 3 games you should win, and you get a 2-2 with a 50% shot at winning anyways.
lol
On November 09 2010 10:32 CanucksJC wrote:
What I meant is, stuff like this is pretty cool, but I could say anything about a given team and players and manipulate the results so what I say makes sense. ex) STX is probably going to send out Kal on this map but lolol I has Jaedong, he's going to sweep ya'll, Kal, Calm, and whoever that follows in that order. =/
The statement of: "If Jaehoon can beat Horang2 with a strategy that Movie has just lost to in a PvP against Tyson, he would lose to Jaehoon as well" seems logical to me, what do you think?
Or, "if HyuN beats Hydra in a ZvZ, he could own HoGiL so badly that HoGiL wouldn't be able to sit for 3 days" assumption doesn't seem too insane either, agree?
Others were just particular examples about fictionary games.
In a world that Jaehoon beats Horang2 in a televised PvP, by.hero can beat Killer or Calm can beat Jaedong or HiyA can beat Kal. All these 4 cases carry exact same oddness imo. Or "if a rookie snow can beat Flash in an ace game, a well trained soulkey can do it as well" statement also seems logical.
what the hell is all this. you are so stupid. you just spent that much text saying that flash can beat mind because mind got beaten by lomo and flash beat lomo. one hell of an assumption. and turn does not have the capabillity of beating (insert any player)?
EPT
sKyHigh, 
Modesty or 
Horang2, you shouldn't make them practice anything but mirror match-ups more than 2-3 hours a day combined (assuming that each player practices 10 hours a day). But unlike 1 match-up snipers, players that are backbones of their teams, like ![[image loading]](http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41696000/jpg/_41696314_barnsleyline-up416.jpg)
