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Estonia4504 Posts
On October 28 2010 19:34 xBillehx wrote: They're known to run stuff at a loss for the fans. (Blizzcon)
Running an entire continuous event and the teams is not equivalent to running an annual event with people who have been trained and provided for by other organizations. Especially not money wise.
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Hungary11243 Posts
Please stop repeating all the pro Blizzard / pro Kespa arguments all over again, and above all, stop getting at each other's throats. This news update is very much appreciated but should not be used as a pretense to bring up all the hate again.
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On October 28 2010 19:43 mustaju wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 19:24 ricerocket wrote: If my job is a computer programer, I am FORCED to learn a new programing language roughly once every two years at the minimum. Why the hell do they make those new languages that's easier to build programs with anyway, right?
Part of being a professional is the ability to adapt, or do you think all those progamers have the same intelligence required for a construction worker? In order to prove that Chess masters are professional, lets force them to adapt to Go. I mean, they are not as dumb as construction workers, so I see no problem. /sarcasm. The games are wildly different, multitasking plays a much smaller role and army management as well. "adapting" takes a lot of effort, so I don't see why we would want that to happen in the first place unless there is no alternative.
Comparing SC to Chess. As much as I love the game, I really dwarf in front of the rabid fanboyism shown here.
The fact is both chess masters and computer programers exist as professions, not because of the merit of each craft but because of the market potential and financial support. As long as there is an audience for BW, it will always be there for you to watch no matter what organization is behind it.
What you all fanboys fear to death is that the natural progression of the market will naturally shift from BW to SC2, and that's what you try to stop by hoping Blizz will lose this suit.
And the irony in that is suffocating.
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On October 28 2010 19:49 Aesop wrote: Please stop repeating all the pro Blizzard / pro Kespa arguments all over again, and above all, stop getting at each other's throats. This news update is very much appreciated but should not be used as a pretense to bring up all the hate again.
I will respect your opinion on this. I am tired of arguing anyway, but sorry for making you frustrated. =3
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On October 28 2010 19:42 cocoa_sg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 19:34 xBillehx wrote:On October 28 2010 19:19 cocoa_sg wrote:On October 28 2010 19:16 ricerocket wrote:On October 28 2010 19:02 BLinD-RawR wrote:On October 28 2010 18:54 ricerocket wrote:On October 28 2010 18:50 cocoa_sg wrote:On October 28 2010 18:44 ricerocket wrote: Haha, what's with that holier-than-thou attitude about being a non-profit? Especially since, from what they've said in the press release, it's not that they don't want profit, it's that they've yet to make enough investment in the infrastructure to turn a profit. So they are non-profit not by choice but by default. Lovely. That is a distorted statement you are making. Look at the quote below: "KeSPA has re-invested the entirety of the broadcasting fees into the operations of the league. While KeSPA is a non profit organization that supports and raises the eSports industry, it can run profitable endeavors to promote a safe environment and to bolster eSports." Whether by choice, or by default, Kespa clearly shows enough goodwill to at least promote the growth of e-sports, no matter their shortcomings. Does it even matter whether Kespa is a non-profit organization or not? Compare their stance on e-sports to Blizzard's; do you really think Blizzard cares about e-sports at all, judging from how they are basically threatening the current BW proscene to extinction? Blizzard doesn't care about eSport? Wow, I don't think I can win an argument with you if that's what you truly believe. I feel sorry for you, being blinded by fanboyism like that. you seem to be blinded too.Blizzard may care about Esports but as far as I can tell,they aren't showing it at all. Do you even know what eSport is? It is SPECTATORSHIP! It's a competition for people to WATCH! You may be entirely correct that Blizz eventually wants the BW players and audiences to move to SC2, but that's not KILLING eSport, it's their attempt (be it to your liking or not) to move it forward. How? By making the thing easier on the eye, that's how! I saw in another thread how someone thinks the BW scene will move underground after Blizz wins this lawsuit, and he's "all for it." What a joke, that's entirely the opposite of what eSport is supposed to be. BW is successful in Korea not because it's a niche market, but because it's mainstream. To attract larger audiences, both inside and beyond Korea, several things must be considered. And I'm sorry if this sounds vain, but pretty graphics is a VERY important element. However, unlike what you guys may believe, Blizz is a top gaming company not because it's lucky, but because it's smart. One of the biggest draw for the fans of Blizz games is how interactive the company is with the fanbase and how respectful it is of us. This means they understand that it is BAD to piss off an entire country's fans of its games. I can not imagine that Blizz will shut down BW cold turkey in order to promote SC2, and I think it's hilarious that's what you guys all believe. WAKE UP! geez By FORCING BW progamers, teams, coaches and fans to switch to an entirely new game? We are talking about 10 years of devotion and practice to BW, a game in which they all love, including me. That is NOT evolution of e-sports on Blizzard's part. Please read his last paragraph. Many people do not believe Blizzard will cold turkey BW, it's only KeSPA fanboys who do. They spread misinformation about Blizzard specifically wanting to kill BW citing their actions. ( continuous negotiations for 3 years????) Blizzard isn't stupid. If people truly want to watch BW in/from Korea they will have it aired until it naturally dies out. Why any of you believe they won't is beyond me. They're known to run stuff at a loss for the fans. (Blizzcon) On that note, I absolutely love how Blizzard's statements get shut down as "PR PR PR BULLSHIT LIES HATE HATE" and KeSPA's statements get "SEE THEY CARE! POOR GUYS." Funny stuff. The real question here is, is Blizzard willing to reinvest into the BW proscene if they win the lawsuit against MBC? If they shut down broadcasting of BW, Kespa will fall apart and there will be no new investments into the proscene due to no income from lack of broadcasting. The answer is doubtful at best. Like someone else already mentioned, Blizzard stopped support for BW for years, and now it has been cut off from Blizzcon. What makes you think they will otherwise? Do you know of any famous BW players that would have traveled to Blizzcon for a BW tournament? Every big foreigner switched over, and KeSPA players would have obviously refused to go considering the situation. The fans there wanted their favorite pro gamers, of which only those who switched Starcraft 2 were willing to come, and that's what they got. (Boxer <3)
Is Blizzard willing to reinvest into the BW proscene? I don't know, and neither does anyone else, that also goes for the people who claim Blizzard will kill BW. However taking into consideration that they do run things at a loss for fans, it's not far fetched to believe that they would reinvest.
Edit: To get away from arguing:
One thing I am kind of confused in, KeSPA says negotiations haven't stopped. We have a spotlighted news post saying it has. Which one is it? Have negotiations broken down?
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South Korea has been known to have low Intellectual Property laws and enforcement compared to other countries.
The World Trade Organization and the United States have worked with South Korea to improve their IP laws on mulitple occasions. The United States have threaten to have trade sanctions against South Korea in the past if they did not amend their IP laws. They have made huge amendments in their IP laws in the mid 1980s, in 2003, and in 2007, although even as of today, they still have problems, and not just about this case either.
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On October 28 2010 19:29 ricerocket wrote: Once again, it's hilarious you guys think Blizz will just shut down BW after they take it over.
Why was there no Brood War at Blizzcon this year? The problem is that Brood War is competition for SC2. Even though it is their own product it is unfortunately in Blizzard's interest to kill off Brood War in Korea leaving Starcraft 2 as the only alternative.
Why? Control. Blizzard has 100% control over what happens in Starcraft 2 because everything has to go through (the horrible) battle.net. With control brings money. If Blizzard stays in control they can demand whatever broadcasting fees they want. If the SC2 scene is successful they stand to make a LOT of money. If it fizzles then they don't lose anything because it is not them making the investments.
It's sad, but can you honestly say you can't see the logic behind what Blizzard is doing?
I have been a long time Blizzard fan ever since Diablo 1. I own multiple copies of SC/Brood War, Diablo 2, 3 WoW Accounts and the SC2 CE. So yeah, I love Blizzard and Blizzard games. I think Starcraft 2 is a good game but it has far too many shortcomings to replace Brood War.
Think about this. If Starcraft 2 was truly an improvement and was genuinely better than Brood War they would not have to bother trying to kill off the competition, it would naturally take it's place as the premier choice for RTS and ESPORTS. Instead we have a situation where Blizzard wants to force Starcraft 2 as the only choice and in doing so destroy the only sustainable ESPORTS infrastructure.
The current SC2 infrastructure is not sustainable, to me it is looking like a fad that will quickly peak in popularity and then fade into nothing just like Halo, CoD, WC3 have already done. Brood War is the only game that has proven it's worth as a game that can stand the test of time because of the fantastic gameplay and excellent professional scene.
So yeah, I'm on KeSPA's side.
I only really have 2 question left that will be answered in the coming years:
Can Brood War survive the wrath of it's own creator? Will Starcraft 2 ever evolve into a worthy successor to the greatest RTS ever?
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On October 28 2010 19:51 xBillehx wrote: Is Blizzard willing to reinvest into the BW proscene? I don't know, and neither does anyone else, that also goes for the people who claim Blizzard will kill BW. However taking into consideration that they do run things at a loss for fans, it's not far fetched to believe that they would reinvest. well, kespa claims they have reinvested all the surplus back into the scene.
and no, blizzard doesn't run things at a loss for fans. blizzard has been generating net income each year for a LONG time. and their losses at blizzcon doesnt count. blizzcon is a marketing event. its not called a loss, its called costs to run a business.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49496 Posts
On October 28 2010 19:50 ricerocket wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 19:43 mustaju wrote:On October 28 2010 19:24 ricerocket wrote: If my job is a computer programer, I am FORCED to learn a new programing language roughly once every two years at the minimum. Why the hell do they make those new languages that's easier to build programs with anyway, right?
Part of being a professional is the ability to adapt, or do you think all those progamers have the same intelligence required for a construction worker? In order to prove that Chess masters are professional, lets force them to adapt to Go. I mean, they are not as dumb as construction workers, so I see no problem. /sarcasm. The games are wildly different, multitasking plays a much smaller role and army management as well. "adapting" takes a lot of effort, so I don't see why we would want that to happen in the first place unless there is no alternative. Comparing SC to Chess. As much as I love the game, I really dwarf in front of the rabid fanboyism shown here. The fact is both chess masters and computer programers exist as professions, not because of the merit of each craft but because of the market potential and financial support. As long as there is an audience for BW, it will always be there for you to watch no matter what organization is behind it. What you all fanboys fear to death is that the natural progression of the market will naturally shift from BW to SC2, and that's what you try to stop by hoping Blizz will lose this suit. And the irony in that is suffocating.
the thing is that a lot of people have accepted that if BW dies a natural death they would accept it.
its really not fanboyism its just confusion and outrage.
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On October 28 2010 19:55 vek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 19:29 ricerocket wrote: Once again, it's hilarious you guys think Blizz will just shut down BW after they take it over. Why was there no Brood War at Blizzcon this year? The problem is that Brood War is competition for SC2. Even though it is their own product it is unfortunately in Blizzard's interest to kill off Brood War in Korea leaving Starcraft 2 as the only alternative. Why? Control. Blizzard has 100% control over what happens in Starcraft 2 because everything has to go through (the horrible) battle.net. With control brings money. If Blizzard stays in control they can demand whatever broadcasting fees they want. If the SC2 scene is successful they stand to make a LOT of money. If it fizzles then they don't lose anything because it is not them making the investments. It's sad, but can you honestly say you can't see the logic behind what Blizzard is doing? I have been a long time Blizzard fan ever since Diablo 1. I own multiple copies of SC/Brood War, Diablo 2, 3 WoW Accounts and the SC2 CE. So yeah, I love Blizzard and Blizzard games. I think Starcraft 2 is a good game but it has far too many shortcomings to replace Brood War. Think about this. If Starcraft 2 was truly an improvement and was genuinely better than Brood War they would not have to bother trying to kill off the competition, it would naturally take it's place as the premier choice for RTS and ESPORTS. Instead we have a situation where Blizzard wants to force Starcraft 2 as the only choice and in doing so destroy the only sustainable ESPORTS infrastructure. The current SC2 infrastructure is not sustainable, to me it is looking like a fad that will quickly peak in popularity and then fade into nothing just like Halo, CoD, WC3 have already done. Brood War is the only game that has proven it's worth as a game that can stand the test of time because of the fantastic gameplay and excellent professional scene. So yeah, I'm on KeSPA's side. I only really have 2 question left that will be answered in the coming years: Can Brood War survive the wrath of it's own creator? Will Starcraft 2 ever evolve into a worthy successor to the greatest RTS ever?
I'm not disputing that Blizz wants SC2 to eventually replace BW, I'm disputing the disgusting fear-mongering here that Blizz wants to shut down BW before its fan support dies out by itself.
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On October 28 2010 19:58 dybydx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 19:51 xBillehx wrote: Is Blizzard willing to reinvest into the BW proscene? I don't know, and neither does anyone else, that also goes for the people who claim Blizzard will kill BW. However taking into consideration that they do run things at a loss for fans, it's not far fetched to believe that they would reinvest. well, kespa claims they have reinvested all the surplus back into the scene. and no, blizzard doesn't run things at a loss for fans. blizzard has been generating net income each year for a LONG time. and their losses at blizzcon doesnt count. blizzcon is a marketing event. its not called a loss, its called costs to run a business. Right, since when can Blizzard not do the same and reinvest the surplus (+more?) back into the scene?
Lets take your costs of business idea. Blizzard is a company that loves it's fans. To make it's fans support them even more and also as a thank you, they do run Blizzcon. Where, using this logic, does Blizzard benefit by killing the BW scene? Continuing the BW scene would cause people to support them (marketing). In fact it'd win over most of the anti-Blizzard people instantly if they did continue the BW procene. Wouldn't, using your idea (which isn't invalid), they also see the continued BW proscene for it's fans as "costs to run a business"?
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Natural progression indeed. forcing BW out of primetime slots and sueing broadcasting companys.
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On October 28 2010 20:06 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 19:58 dybydx wrote:On October 28 2010 19:51 xBillehx wrote: Is Blizzard willing to reinvest into the BW proscene? I don't know, and neither does anyone else, that also goes for the people who claim Blizzard will kill BW. However taking into consideration that they do run things at a loss for fans, it's not far fetched to believe that they would reinvest. well, kespa claims they have reinvested all the surplus back into the scene. and no, blizzard doesn't run things at a loss for fans. blizzard has been generating net income each year for a LONG time. and their losses at blizzcon doesnt count. blizzcon is a marketing event. its not called a loss, its called costs to run a business. Right, since when can Blizzard not do the same and reinvest the surplus (+more?) back into the scene? Lets take your costs of business idea. Blizzard is a company that loves it's fans. To make it's fans support them even more, they do run Blizzcon. Where, using this logic, does Blizzard benefit by killing the BW scene? Continuing the BW scene would cause people to support them (marketing). In fact it'd win over most of the anti-Blizzard people instantly if they did continue the BW procene. Wouldn't, using your idea (which isn't invalid), they also see the continued BW proscene for it's fans as "costs to run a business"? 
I do not appreciate you putting Blizzard in such a positive light. Blizzard and Kespa are both not as angelic as we make them out to be. However, I would say Kespa is the lesser evil here; you have to understand why a lot of people dissent Blizzard, including me. They are certainly not trustworthy, that much is a fact.
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That much is your opinion. Since when has the trait of "trustworthiness" become fallible?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49496 Posts
On October 28 2010 19:55 vek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 19:29 ricerocket wrote: Once again, it's hilarious you guys think Blizz will just shut down BW after they take it over. The current SC2 infrastructure is not sustainable, to me it is looking like a fad that will quickly peak in popularity and then fade into nothing just like Halo, CoD, WC3 have already done. Brood War is the only game that has proven it's worth as a game that can stand the test of time because of the fantastic gameplay and excellent professional scene. So yeah, I'm on KeSPA's side. I only really have 2 question left that will be answered in the coming years: Can Brood War survive the wrath of it's own creator? Will Starcraft 2 ever evolve into a worthy successor to the greatest RTS ever?
its understandable that you fear if SC2 can succeed BW,but if it did wouldn't it be nice for E-sports?
What I'm trying to say is that you fear the death of BW more than anything and refuse to see the growth of E-sports.
We don't know whats going to happen,GOM might want to run a BW tourney and they have every right to.
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On October 28 2010 20:09 cocoa_sg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 20:06 xBillehx wrote:On October 28 2010 19:58 dybydx wrote:On October 28 2010 19:51 xBillehx wrote: Is Blizzard willing to reinvest into the BW proscene? I don't know, and neither does anyone else, that also goes for the people who claim Blizzard will kill BW. However taking into consideration that they do run things at a loss for fans, it's not far fetched to believe that they would reinvest. well, kespa claims they have reinvested all the surplus back into the scene. and no, blizzard doesn't run things at a loss for fans. blizzard has been generating net income each year for a LONG time. and their losses at blizzcon doesnt count. blizzcon is a marketing event. its not called a loss, its called costs to run a business. Right, since when can Blizzard not do the same and reinvest the surplus (+more?) back into the scene? Lets take your costs of business idea. Blizzard is a company that loves it's fans. To make it's fans support them even more, they do run Blizzcon. Where, using this logic, does Blizzard benefit by killing the BW scene? Continuing the BW scene would cause people to support them (marketing). In fact it'd win over most of the anti-Blizzard people instantly if they did continue the BW procene. Wouldn't, using your idea (which isn't invalid), they also see the continued BW proscene for it's fans as "costs to run a business"?  I do not appreciate you putting Blizzard in such a positive light. Blizzard and Kespa are both not as angelic as we make them out to be. However, I would say Kespa is the lesser evil here; you have to understand why a lot of people dissent Blizzard, including me. They are certainly not trustworthy, that much is a fact. I don't necessarily believe Blizzard is angelic. I believe theres room for compromise on both sides. I do not appreciate the people who put Blizzard (and solely Blizzard) in such a negative light either. I think they are clearly capable to do things right, and thus I post explanations why I think so. Is there the option they screw things up? Sure, but theres also the option that they do things right, and thats what the "ZOMG BLIZZARD KILL ESPORTS" people tend to ignore.
However, you also have to understand why a lot of people dissent KeSPA as well. If you've been following the scene for years now, they've proven way beyond Blizzard that they aren't trustworthy.
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On October 28 2010 20:16 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 20:09 cocoa_sg wrote:On October 28 2010 20:06 xBillehx wrote:On October 28 2010 19:58 dybydx wrote:On October 28 2010 19:51 xBillehx wrote: Is Blizzard willing to reinvest into the BW proscene? I don't know, and neither does anyone else, that also goes for the people who claim Blizzard will kill BW. However taking into consideration that they do run things at a loss for fans, it's not far fetched to believe that they would reinvest. well, kespa claims they have reinvested all the surplus back into the scene. and no, blizzard doesn't run things at a loss for fans. blizzard has been generating net income each year for a LONG time. and their losses at blizzcon doesnt count. blizzcon is a marketing event. its not called a loss, its called costs to run a business. Right, since when can Blizzard not do the same and reinvest the surplus (+more?) back into the scene? Lets take your costs of business idea. Blizzard is a company that loves it's fans. To make it's fans support them even more, they do run Blizzcon. Where, using this logic, does Blizzard benefit by killing the BW scene? Continuing the BW scene would cause people to support them (marketing). In fact it'd win over most of the anti-Blizzard people instantly if they did continue the BW procene. Wouldn't, using your idea (which isn't invalid), they also see the continued BW proscene for it's fans as "costs to run a business"?  I do not appreciate you putting Blizzard in such a positive light. Blizzard and Kespa are both not as angelic as we make them out to be. However, I would say Kespa is the lesser evil here; you have to understand why a lot of people dissent Blizzard, including me. They are certainly not trustworthy, that much is a fact. I don't necessarily believe Blizzard is angelic. I believe theres room for compromise on both sides. I do not appreciate the people who put Blizzard (and solely Blizzard) in such a negative light either. I think they are clearly capable to do things right, and thus I post explanations why I think so. Is there the option they screw things up? Sure, but theres also the option that they do things right, and thats what the "ZOMG BLIZZARD KILL ESPORTS" people tend to ignore. However, you also have to understand why a lot of people dissent KeSPA as well. If you've been following the scene for years now, they've proven way beyond Blizzard that they aren't trustworthy.
Yet, BW still lives on after 10 years, no matter Kespa's shortcomings. And for that, we are grateful. I do not wish to argue with you anymore on this, see you.
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On October 28 2010 18:44 ricerocket wrote: Haha, what's with that holier-than-thou attitude about being a non-profit? Especially since, from what they've said in the press release, it's not that they don't want profit, it's that they've yet to make enough investment in the infrastructure to turn a profit. So they are non-profit not by choice but by default. Lovely.
You obviously don't know what non-profit means. Being in the deficit doesn't mean you're a non-profit organization. It just means you're bad business. Non-profit just means that there's no private owners and that surplus profit won't be distributed to the board members but kept for the betterment of the organization. In short, as a non-profit organization, surplus money gained by KeSPA will be spent on e-sports.
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Read the press release first, will you?
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On October 28 2010 20:06 xBillehx wrote:Right, since when can Blizzard not do the same and reinvest the surplus (+more?) back into the scene? Lets take your costs of business idea. Blizzard is a company that loves it's fans. To make it's fans support them even more and also as a thank you, they do run Blizzcon. Where, using this logic, does Blizzard benefit by killing the BW scene? Continuing the BW scene would cause people to support them (marketing). In fact it'd win over most of the anti-Blizzard people instantly if they did continue the BW procene. Wouldn't, using your idea (which isn't invalid), they also see the continued BW proscene for it's fans as "costs to run a business"?  blizz CAN invest into BW but they have no reason to, especially with SC2 out.
the ultimate goal of Blizz is profit. making the fans happy and growing eSport are secondary objectives. it is in the best interest of Blizz's shareholders to kill off BW because, as GOM pointed out, BW competes against SC2 for those precious time slots on air, and SC2 has far more revenue generating potentials than BW.
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