EPTI personally think this "intellectual property" is retarded. If you were to extend that reasoning than every program would have to pay the creators of the language who would have to pay previous creators of which it is based on and so on and so forth. KeSPA put a lot of work in and its not fair to have Blizzard be in command of everything they do. If i build a house should it belong to company who made the hammer i used?
Blizzard and Korean Government's negotiations sour - Page 15
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illumination
Korea (South)248 Posts
I personally think this "intellectual property" is retarded. If you were to extend that reasoning than every program would have to pay the creators of the language who would have to pay previous creators of which it is based on and so on and so forth. KeSPA put a lot of work in and its not fair to have Blizzard be in command of everything they do. If i build a house should it belong to company who made the hammer i used? | ||
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_awake_
196 Posts
On  October 08 2010 20:16 illumination wrote:Blizzard like most western companies think their rights extend past all overs. You can tell by their terms of service that say that the replays you have are theirs and the custom maps are theirs. Eastern philosophy is different (which is why they have a different ToS) so its partly resulting in this clash. I personally think this "intellectual property" is retarded. If you were to extend that reasoning than every program would have to pay the creators of the language who would have to pay previous creators of which it is based on and so on and so forth. KeSPA put a lot of work in and its not fair to have Blizzard be in command of everything they do. If i build a house should it belong to company who made the hammer i used? According to Blizzard, it is. Some fans would even give Blizzard ownership of their souls if that was written in the terms of service. Retarded indeed. Let the courts decide what is reasonable in the ToS. I hope the Gretech dogs lose. | ||
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robertdinh
803 Posts
On October 08 2010 19:47 bRuTaL!! wrote: Like I said previously: " If having a healthy bw scene benefits Blizzard more than what it takes away from SC2 then by all means, theyll welcome it. As of right now, it doesnt and you cant reasonably expect anything else than them trying to fix that." A company that turns it's back on old games that are part of why it was so successful, just to shove the latest model down your throat is not someone you should want controlling esports though. If blizzard truly cared about ALL of their fans they would not even consider harming bw, they would present you with the options and let you decide. Instead they are aggressively trying to force sc2 as bw's successor in every way shape or form and trying to stomp bw to death. And yes I know what Mike Morhaime said, but actions speak louder than words, and when you try to force terms on kespa like not airing BW at the same time SC2 airs, it obviously means you don't want to let people make up their own minds. | ||
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bRuTaL!!
Finland588 Posts
On October 08 2010 20:08 Lightwip wrote: If you think that the only thing that should exist is that which brings the biggest profit for Blizzard, then I don't think this is the place for you. E-sports is not a cash cow to milk but rather a part of Korean culture. Geez, its not about what I think or what my opinions are. Im talking about facts, whats going to happen and why. Not what I think SHOULD happen. These things Im mentioning are everyday events, happening all the time. It doesnt only apply to Blizzard but all companies and a lot to people too. I dont expect you to give me a phone and let me bill you for the expenses, so I dont think people should expect Blizzard give away free stuff that costing them money. Blizzard could have gone for the IP rights a lot ealier but didnt. If Blizzard was so greedy, then why only now? And if BW is popular enough, then theyll be able to offset the "damages" Bw does to SC2 and keep it alive. But, seeing how Sc2 is coming more popular, I dont think its gonna happen (this is an opinion). | ||
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mofuli
164 Posts
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On October 08 2010 15:59 O-ops wrote: i just want to clarify that Kespa doesn't have shit. It's the corporations in Korea that keeps pouring down the $$$ upon professional starcraft, and I'm pretty sure that Samsung, Hite, Oz, KTF, SK Telecom, and CJ has a more money combined than Activision Blizzard. And as long as Starcraft still have enough popularity in Korea (and elsewhere in the world) that investing in a team or sponsoring a league is still profitable, they will continue to do this. If you want to do this with SC2, then the game better be in a league of its own and be well known all over the world. I dunno how many times this has to be pointed out but the corporations are KeSPA. Lastly, BW is breaking down from bottom up. Quoting how much Flash makes money isnt relevant. What is relevant is how much people out of the top 10 are making. Think of the bw scene as a house of cards. Take out the bottom, and it comes crashing down, take out the top and it stays up. Other players dont need Flash, but Flash needs them. Otherwise, who is he going to play against? In 2011 GSL will have 32 Code S players and 64 Code A players and a 2 million dollar prize pool for the year. SC2 evens out the playing field, others actually might have a chance and I bet SC2 is looking mighty good for all those B-Teamers and "bad" A-teamers... The problem is worse in SC2 though. There's only one tournament with good prize money and nothing else. So how much are the gamers outside of the top 10 earning in SC2? | ||
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Longshank
1648 Posts
There will be a healthy SC2 scene in Korea whatever happens between Gretech and KeSPA. Anyway I can't believe how many people are buying this bit of 'news'. But if it's on the internet then I guess it must be true! | ||
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xBillehx
United States1289 Posts
On October 08 2010 20:30 robertdinh wrote: And yes I know what Mike Morhaime said, but actions speak louder than words, and when you try to force terms on kespa like not airing BW at the same time SC2 airs, it obviously means you don't want to let people make up their own minds. I'm just going to comment on the last part. I watch both BW and SC2. Now obviously being from the states I can catch VOD's at my own luxury, but who are you to say these types of people have to choose one over the other on TV in Korea? Why can't they watch both, at different times of the day on the same channel so they don't compete with each other for ratings? Terms stating that the two shouldn't air at the same time benefits the consumer the most, so the consumer is not forced to choose. It also heavily benefits the channel they both air on (preferably both OGN and MBC together) since viewers will stay on those channels for both BW and SC2 rather than being forced away to watch one or the other. Instead of forcing a choice, offering both freely is the better option. Since KeSPA has not, and currently will not support such a stance (because frankly they just don't give a shit about SC2, only BW and their control over it), I just can't side with them on this. I'd like to watch both, and I'd like for players to freely be able to switch back and forth if they want to. Right now KeSPA doesn't allow that, in fact they ban anyone under them attempting the GSL for 3 years. If Blizzard had a say in the way Korean BW was run, I'm fairly confident they wouldn't ban players for switching over, whether its to SC2 or back to BW. I don't believe Blizzard wants to kill BW at all, otherwise they, and GOM, would not still be trying to talk to KeSPA about airing BW in non-conflicting schedules with the GSL. You said it yourself, actions do speak louder than words. | ||
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robertdinh
803 Posts
On October 08 2010 21:33 xBillehx wrote: I'm just going to comment on the last part. I watch both BW and SC2. Now obviously being from the states I can catch VOD's at my own luxury, but who are you to say these types of people have to choose one over the other on TV in Korea? Why can't they watch both, at different times of the day on the same channel so they don't compete with each other for ratings? Terms stating that the two shouldn't air at the same time benefits the consumer the most, so the consumer is not forced to choose. It also heavily benefits the channel they both air on (preferably both OGN and MBC together) since viewers will stay on those channels for both BW and SC2 rather than being forced away to watch one or the other. Instead of forcing a choice, offering both freely is the better option. Since KeSPA has not, and currently will not support such a stance (because frankly they just don't give a shit about SC2, only BW and their control over it), I just can't side with them on this. I'd like to watch both, and I'd like for players to freely be able to switch back and forth if they want to. Right now KeSPA doesn't allow that, in fact they ban anyone under them attempting the GSL for 3 years. If Blizzard had a say in the way Korean BW was run, I'm fairly confident they wouldn't ban players for switching over, whether its to SC2 or back to BW. I don't believe Blizzard wants to kill BW at all, otherwise they, and GOM, would not still be trying to talk to KeSPA about airing BW in non-conflicting schedules with the GSL. You said it yourself, actions do speak louder than words. It doesn't benefit any BW fan if BW is forced to move to non-primetime slots so that sc2 can have it's way. If you honestly think blizzard didn't want bw airing at the same time as sc2 because they wanted to give the fans more variety then I can't help ya. They only did it because bw is more popular than sc2, and they want sc2 to succeed even at bw's expense. | ||
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wiesel
Germany727 Posts
On October 08 2010 21:33 Longshank wrote: Why are people talking about GSL going overseas? SC2 isn't going anywhere, this dispute is about BW. Blizzard got complete control over SC2 since it's played over battle.net - only way KeSPA could get in on SC2 would be through cracked private servers and good luck with that. There will be a healthy SC2 scene in Korea whatever happens between Gretech and KeSPA. Anyway I can't believe how many people are buying this bit of 'news'. But if it's on the internet then I guess it must be true! The Korean government could ban all sc2 tournies. That's why GSl might go overseas if they don't come to an agreement with BW rights. | ||
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Longshank
1648 Posts
On October 08 2010 21:52 wiesel wrote: The Korean government could ban all sc2 tournies. That's why GSl might go overseas if they don't come to an agreement with BW rights. What? How could they do that? If they don't come to an agreement that means KeSPA will continue with BW as before, why on earth would or even could they ban all SC2 tournaments? Please elaborate or post a source. | ||
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palexhur
Colombia730 Posts
On October 08 2010 22:20 Longshank wrote: What? How could they do that? If they don't come to an agreement that means KeSPA will continue with BW as before, why on earth would or even could they ban all SC2 tournaments? Please elaborate or post a source. I think when people is refering about taking GSL overseas is because of some sentence in the OP that implied that Blizzard is thinking about it if they dont have an agreement with the Korea government about all the issues that we have been talking about, . | ||
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wiesel
Germany727 Posts
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On October 08 2010 21:33 xBillehx wrote: I'm just going to comment on the last part. I watch both BW and SC2. Now obviously being from the states I can catch VOD's at my own luxury, but who are you to say these types of people have to choose one over the other on TV in Korea? Why can't they watch both, at different times of the day on the same channel so they don't compete with each other for ratings? Terms stating that the two shouldn't air at the same time benefits the consumer the most, so the consumer is not forced to choose. It also heavily benefits the channel they both air on (preferably both OGN and MBC together) since viewers will stay on those channels for both BW and SC2 rather than being forced away to watch one or the other. Instead of forcing a choice, offering both freely is the better option. Since KeSPA has not, and currently will not support such a stance (because frankly they just don't give a shit about SC2, only BW and their control over it), I just can't side with them on this. I'd like to watch both, and I'd like for players to freely be able to switch back and forth if they want to. Right now KeSPA doesn't allow that, in fact they ban anyone under them attempting the GSL for 3 years. If Blizzard had a say in the way Korean BW was run, I'm fairly confident they wouldn't ban players for switching over, whether its to SC2 or back to BW. I don't believe Blizzard wants to kill BW at all, otherwise they, and GOM, would not still be trying to talk to KeSPA about airing BW in non-conflicting schedules with the GSL. You said it yourself, actions do speak louder than words. Nice attempt at spinning what is obviously a bullshit move "Gretech: TAKE PROLEAGUE OFF PRIMETIME SLOTS THATS FOR GSL." into something beneficially to viewers "choice". | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
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Garaman
United States556 Posts
On October 08 2010 18:53 bRuTaL!! wrote: I used to think that BW fans > SC2 in intellect and ability to have well argumented debates. Now Im not so sure. So many baseless accusations. First of all, this whole debacle is based on blog post that has since been deleted. That blog post was based on one guys side of the story then rewritten as it was interpreted and THEN TRANSLATED. We might as well know nothing. Second of all, Blizzard doesnt hate esports. It looooooooooooooves it. Why? Succesful esports = money. Esports is the only thing that made Starcraft so succesful. And theyre trying their hardest to make sc2 a succesful esports. Companies dont do anything out of spite, unless it benefits them and then it isnt even out of spite anymore. If having a healthy bw scene benefits Blizzard more than what it takes away from SC2 then by all means, theyll welcome it. As of right now, it doesnt and you cant reasonably expect anything else than them trying to fix that. Comparing IP rights of sports to SC is idiotic at best. Sports are concepts, not tangible products. Their creators have mostly been dead for 100+ years. Individuals hold theyre rights to IP generally for 50 years after their death. They also didnt reserve their right to it. Where as SC has music, game engine, stories, images etc. None of you would disputy the IP rights to these if theyd be sold or used individually. But suddenly, if you package them, those rights dissappear. Lastly, BW is breaking down from bottom up. Quoting how much Flash makes money isnt relevant. What is relevant is how much people out of the top 10 are making. Think of the bw scene as a house of cards. Take out the bottom, and it comes crashing down, take out the top and it stays up. Other players dont need Flash, but Flash needs them. Otherwise, who is he going to play against? In 2011 GSL will have 32 Code S players and 64 Code A players and a 2 million dollar prize pool for the year. SC2 evens out the playing field, others actually might have a chance and I bet SC2 is looking mighty good for all those B-Teamers and "bad" A-teamers... this is why i can't stand sc2 fans who dont know crap. blizzard only loves esports as long as they don't have to do anything (gretech is carrying out their will) and it helps them sell THEIR CURRENT GAME. they don't care for developing a long term scene. they just need it to promote one game and move on to the next. having a healthy BW scene exeplifies that games are not just fads, that a good game can be a vehicle for continual investment for corporations and legitamizes esports. so, basically, you are saying that when you watch a great game in bw (i'm not even sure you have watched one, but who knows), it is blizzard that is creating such a thing of beauty? i mean if you look at a virtuoso pianist, they are playing on a piano (bought and paid for, but made by steinway or other companies) but the company who made the piano should own the music and recording rights of albums due to the fact it was on THERE piano that they SOLD to whoever? it isn't the instrument that is creating such great music, just like in BW, it isn't the game producing the epic games, it is the skill and craft of the players themselves. go watch BW between two sc2 noobs and tell me the game is so great to watch, blizzard is the reason why it's so great. no, it's the players creative skill that results in the epicness. BW is not breaking down. sure they lost a sponsor, and a few OVER THE HILL players, but on the most part, the scene is still strong. people still watch the games. companies are still willing to invest in it. you talk about how GSL over the span of a year is a 2million dollar prize pool. how much is the BW scene costing them? 6-8 major tournaments, proleague finals, proleague mini finals throughout the season, renting out the venues, playing almost every other night, paying salaries of countless players, (you really don't expect ppl like hiya to not get paid do you? or are you just that naiive) , prize pools, traveling cost, living expenses, food expenses, annual trips for the teams, etc etc etc etc etc. it trumps all that GSL is doing for the scene. no, blizzard/activition are fools if they think they can take GSL out of the korea. there are not enough ppl willing to sponsor a tournament like that, RTS just aint popular in the west, not enough for corporations to pay for advertisements on TV. blizzard aint willing to build up an esports scene. all they care about is hype, and that ppl buy the games. they will do the bare minimum to do so, which is creating ONE LEAGUE via PROXY, but if it aint meant to be, they will pull the plug faster than anyone. | ||
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Garaman
United States556 Posts
it would be apt revenge, and denies blizzard a market how sweet would it be =) this is regarding to weisels post | ||
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LuciD`
United States81 Posts
On October 09 2010 00:28 Garaman wrote: if they shut down bw, i hope out of spite they ban sc2 in korea. it would be apt revenge, and denies blizzard a market how sweet would it be =) this is regarding to weisels post It wouldn't be sweet at all. Then we'd have NOTHING from Korea. I'm sorry but as much as I want BW to stay around so I can still enjoy Proleague, OSL and MSL, simultaneously killing SC2's presence in Korea along with the death of BW would be the worst possible thing to happen for the fans overall. Revenge is usually never as satisfying as people think it to be in my opinion. | ||
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zenMaster
Canada761 Posts
On October 08 2010 18:53 bRuTaL!! wrote: I used to think that BW fans > SC2 in intellect and ability to have well argumented debates. Now Im not so sure. So many baseless accusations. First of all, this whole debacle is based on blog post that has since been deleted. That blog post was based on one guys side of the story then rewritten as it was interpreted and THEN TRANSLATED. We might as well know nothing. Second of all, Blizzard doesnt hate esports. It looooooooooooooves it. Why? Succesful esports = money. Esports is the only thing that made Starcraft so succesful. And theyre trying their hardest to make sc2 a succesful esports. Companies dont do anything out of spite, unless it benefits them and then it isnt even out of spite anymore. If having a healthy bw scene benefits Blizzard more than what it takes away from SC2 then by all means, theyll welcome it. As of right now, it doesnt and you cant reasonably expect anything else than them trying to fix that. Comparing IP rights of sports to SC is idiotic at best. Sports are concepts, not tangible products. Their creators have mostly been dead for 100+ years. Individuals hold theyre rights to IP generally for 50 years after their death. They also didnt reserve their right to it. Where as SC has music, game engine, stories, images etc. None of you would disputy the IP rights to these if theyd be sold or used individually. But suddenly, if you package them, those rights dissappear. Lastly, BW is breaking down from bottom up. Quoting how much Flash makes money isnt relevant. What is relevant is how much people out of the top 10 are making. Think of the bw scene as a house of cards. Take out the bottom, and it comes crashing down, take out the top and it stays up. Other players dont need Flash, but Flash needs them. Otherwise, who is he going to play against? In 2011 GSL will have 32 Code S players and 64 Code A players and a 2 million dollar prize pool for the year. SC2 evens out the playing field, others actually might have a chance and I bet SC2 is looking mighty good for all those B-Teamers and "bad" A-teamers... Bwhahaha. Sorry I couldn't help it. Funniest thing I've read in a while. | ||
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Ryo
8787 Posts
On October 09 2010 00:37 LuciD` wrote: It wouldn't be sweet at all. Then we'd have NOTHING from Korea. I'm sorry but as much as I want BW to stay around so I can still enjoy Proleague, OSL and MSL, simultaneously killing SC2's presence in Korea along with the death of BW would be the worst possible thing to happen for the fans overall. Revenge is usually never as satisfying as people think it to be in my opinion. For me, if BW goes, I'm done. I tried watching GSL but it's just not enjoyable so even if BW goes, I won't be watching SC2. I'll just find another hobby. | ||
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