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I can't wait until a new balance patch comes out. Say all you want about balance, you're all in denial that many units are overused while many others are underused.
How I see it:
Dark Archon: This unit is WAY underused. Simply because it costs too much $ and you have to surrender 2 DTs, plus, it costs alot of energy to cast any real useful spells. In pvz you will see high templar prefered over dark archon 99.9% of the time. Good balance means a player has to actually think and decide...hey should I go dark archon or high templar this game? My suggestion: Lower Mind Control to 125 energy. Lower maelstrom to 75 energy.
High Templar hallucinations: This spell is way underused because quite frankly it costs way too much energy for their effectiveness except in a few rare circumstances. How many times have you seen hallucinations changed the outcome of a game? Now how many times have you seen storm changed the outcome of a game? Balance it to the point where a player must actually think and decide...hmmm should I get hallucination first or storm first? My suggestion: Reduce hallucination cost to 75 energy and/or hallucinated units take 1.5x damage instead of 2x.
Scout: Seriously, why is this thing called a scout when a corsair is always used for scouting? Can anyone explain? The scout's air-to-ground damage is downright pathetic. Again ask yourself, how many times have I seen scouts changed the outcome of the game? Then ask yourself, how many times have I seen corsairs changed the outcome of the game? My suggestion: 1. Eliminate the speed and sight range upgrade for the scout -- scouts should have these upgrades already. Who in their right mind would spend 200/200 to give a scout 1 more matrix in sight range? 2. Increase the scout air-to-ground damage by 4.
Queen: WAY underused unit, and rightfully so because queens suck ass for their cost-effectiveness. Defiler can consume to get basically unlimited energy. Dark swarm is a scare and plague rocks. My suggestion: Reduce ensnare cost to 50 energy. Reduce broodling cost to 100 energy. This will also make zerg stronger in island maps.
Update: Another alternate viable solution is maybe to allow queen to start out with more energy than they currently do
Infested Terran: This is probably the worst unit in the game. Seriously, I can't think of any unit that are worse than infested terrans regarding cost-effectiveness. In order to steal a command center it is very hard, so if a zerg player manages to steal a cc, he should be rewarded with something more than the ability to make units that can never make a real difference. When was the last time you saw infested terrans changed the outcome of the game? Seriously, I'm not kidding when I say this is the worst balanced unit there is. The reason is because they have too little hitpoints and die before they can do any damage. My suggestion: Increase their hit points from 60 to 100.
Also to name a few more:
In PvT, when terran has a massive amount of tanks late game, it's almost impossible for a protoss ground army to beat it because tanks with maxed weapon upgrades do too much damage. Suggestion: lower the damage in which weapon upgrade gives to tanks.
When protoss has a massive amount of carriers late game, it's almost impossible for terran to counter it. Suggestion: Lower the interceptor hit points.
We can then see more diverse strategies instead of protoss playing a game of stalling until they can get carriers most of the time.
- Nukes should cost less. They are underused because they are cost-ineffective. The chances of it working effectively is not worth the cost.
I know some of you are gonna argue and say hey I saw xxx used dark archon / scout / hallucinations... blah blah blah vs xxx and won. Well listen, billions of starcraft games have been played. Out of those billions of games, there just probabilistically HAS to be some games in which an underpowered unit made a difference to the game. How often do you seee that? Almost never. I don't care if you see Grrrr used dark archon to beat ultra/crackling or sKy.Proct using scouts to defeat terran with the stove or hallucinated zealots bombing up tanks....these strats have a very VERY small chance of working effectively. You will never find more than a handful of professional reps where these units made a big difference to the game.
In conclusion, no one wants to see high templars chosen instead of dark archons 99.9% of the time, no one wants to see corsairs chosen over scouts 99.9% of the time, no one wants to see defilers chosen over queens 99.9% of the time. The only question is if Blizzard will ever attempt to make another balance patch for the game.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Scouts would be too powerful. WAY too powerful.
Dark Archon is mighty already.
Broodling energy would be awesome at 100 energy, yes.
Infested Terran hp change would be ok.
Nukes are insanely cost effective should they hit
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Hallucination boost would make hallucination too powerful
imagine 23896234 zealots coming at you. Even though only 50 of them are real, thats alot of damage soaking.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
basically you're suggesting taking units that aren't amazing and turning them into monsters. Would make the game very imbalanced.
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On July 07 2004 15:04 Rt-S.FakeSteve wrote:
basically you're suggesting taking units that aren't amazing and turning them into monsters. Would make the game very imbalanced.
Wrong. I'm suggesting taking units that aren't amazing and balance them. Again, please tell me how many times have you seen hallucinations, nukes, and scouts changed the outcome of a game?
Why do you think they are underused? Because they are cost-ineffective. That's why for example you will see a high templar chosen over a dark archon 99.9% of the time
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I suggest that we give hydras normal damage instead of explosive so that we will see them more in zvz! THEY ARE UNDERUSED! :D
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Stop it, Starcraft is balanced =/
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stop suggesting balance changes, especially if you're going to say stuff like "queens suck"
this game is very, very good ok? let's keep it that way
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On July 07 2004 15:11 GroT wrote:
stop suggesting balance changes, especially if you're going to say stuff like "queens suck"
this game is very, very good ok? let's keep it that way
This is a serious topic. I do think that queens suck. Give me more than 2 professional replays of queens changing the outcome of a game?
I can surely give you a ton of replays where defilers changed the outcome of a game. Can you tell me why you would rather see delifers always chosen instead of queens 99% of the time?
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. . .
This game is balanced, queens do not suck, defilers are indeed good.
Don't try to change the game, it will just fuck things up
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Maybe u should make a ums map with these changes and test it out. it ll be interesting
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On July 07 2004 15:15 Ryan307  wrote: . . . This game is balanced, queens do not suck, defilers are indeed good. Don't try to change the game, it will just fuck things up
And anyone who doesn't agree with anything I said, give me a reason why.
By the way, a reason isn't simply saying oh "queens don't suck." A reason means pointing out evidence from pro replays where choosing the underused unit over the other was a better decision.
Please answer my question because I have asked it many times now...how many times have you seen a professional player choosing to go queens over defilers and it turned out he made a good decision? Probably less than 5 times.
How many times have you seen a professional player choosing to go defilers over queens and it turned out he made a good decision? Probably thousands of times
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Here's the deal, if all units were used equally, it wouldn't be fun or amazing when you did see a queen used effectively or when you did see a dark archon used to take ovies so the player didn't need to get detection (was in a tsu rep once).
Also halucinate is not underused. I use it all the time pvt to get shuttles into turreted areas. It may not be used as much as storm, but it has its place.
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You could make an UMS map with most of these changes and try them out.
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Dark archons are fine as it is, 50 mana and ~12 range feedback is a pretty damn strong spell, especially PvP it can ruin anyone who goes for HTs. If you don't trust me I should probably upload some Zelias replays
Edit: oh yeah as mentioned by other people hallucination of shuttles is priceless for dropping turreted islands/cliffs, also hallucinations of arbiters. Check this rep http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=2523
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infested terran is some kind of a bonus, lets not make them release a patch that will make infesting cc a standard in every game ;/
You didn't set your goals for "balance changes", from what you wrote it seems like you want to make unused units become more popular and add possible strategies to each race's repertoire. After reading whole post it occured to me you totally screw game balance between races or at least not care about them while calling Infested Terran "imablanced" for example.
btw, decide what player group are you aiming for - bgh, fastest money, lt or progamers, cuz easier cc infestation would ruin my tvz on fastest which I'm already weak with because of race imbalance you support in your post!
PS while doing "many tank" and mass carrier are super unbeatable tactics that should be weeded out, I didn't see "few arbiters can statis too many units", "terran has no photon cannons", "feedback works only in matchups with spellcasters". Wait, after your changes I would never go mass queen, knowing it would get owned with mass feedback rush ;/
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On July 07 2004 15:19 pooper-scooper wrote:
Also halucinate is not underused. I use it all the time pvt to get shuttles into turreted areas. It may not be used as much as storm, but it has its place.
I even knew a few people will say this, that's why I even said:
High Templar hallucinations: This spell is way underused because quite frankly it costs way too much energy for their effectiveness
except in a few rare circumstances.
They are only effective in very small occasions when they have to be used for something. They need to be effective to the point where a player must decide whether to go hallucinations instead of storm or storm over hallucination will be better.
Also...what the hell are you guys saying about feedback? I suggested absolutely no changes to feedback
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The only thing that needs to be changed is that Maelstorm should cost less.
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Good balance means a player has to actually think and decide...
you're absolutely right. decisions certainly can be made a lot less obvious in BW right now. anyone who disagrees with this is fucking dumb and probably thinks every version is perfectly balanced (at the time) so they should just stay out of this discussion. if u can be sure that a unit could be made more powerful or less expensive without it breaking any matchup (and in many cases you can) then u really should realize that is a hint the game is not completely perfectly balanced and that yes, it can be made at least slightly better.
da's certainly deserve something. they _should_ be some kind of monster for their cost. lowering the research costs of their spells and energy requirements should be done, the only question is by how much. better too small a change than too large a change, altho blizzard usually goes with the opposite philosophy when making any kind of balance change.
halluc could have its energy cost reduced, definitely. again, by how much? blizz seems to like multiples of 25 for spells. i dont know if you need to change the research cost or the actual nature of hallucinations (the amount of damage they take), i would try just tweaking the energy cost, should be enough. maybe the research cost (toss could really use a reduction of many research costs if you want to help them out a bit, a really subjective issue)
scout: scouts definitely could be helped somewhere. they have useless upgrades that are too expensive. and they're at the fleet beacon. wtf. they could be reduced in cost slightly (build time, ore, gas) it's just a matter of how much. maybe the fleet beacon needs to become more feasable as well (of course carriers are too good right now .. maybe make carriers more expensive or weak or whatever in exchange for making the fleet beacon possible to get before you're already rich -- let scout upgrades and dweb be possibly useful before having 3 geysers why not?). you have to be careful when increasing scout's damage to ground at all. it could probably go up a little but i would make as small a change as possible if any.
queens are debatable. they were reduced a lot in cost and people still dont use them at all. some people say they're great. maybe ensnare should be changed to effect rate of fire more than it does. maybe some queen spells could be reduced in costs/energy etc. again i would try to make the smallest change first rather than risking making something too strong overnight.
infested terrans: not sure if they should have more HP, but they cost too much. 100 vespene is what makes them worthless. lower their cost.
PvT: an undocumented change made vulture mines chase things from farther away. protoss goons were made stronger with a range improvement and cost reduction and build time reduction, but then their build time reduction was taken away. pvt used to be all about trying to use storm to break through, but these days it's totally about getting enough bases to get carriers, which is sad. i dont think u can fix this on paper. if you weaken carriers wtf will toss do? remember how turrets were made 75 minerals, vulture mines reduced in cost or something? in retrospect it seems like terrans didnt need it at all, mine/turret spam is such a pain in the ass. buit if you weaken one race in this matchup you have to change other things. i would like to see carriers taken down a notch but i dont think you can come up with the perfect balance in one patch when you are talking about changing such major things.
We can then see more diverse strategies instead of protoss playing a game of stalling until they can get carriers most of the time. interceptors are too invincible because their shields recharge every time they go into the carrier and because of the "tricks" you can use to let carriers shoot from farther away than they are supposed to be able to.
nukes certainly can have some reductoin in their gas cost, build time, maybe mineral cost. dont do it by too much thats all. make a small change first.
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Brood War IS BALANCED, stop trying to change these things and trying to get peoples attention to just make things your way. Everyone loves the game as it is, I don't see whats the point of changing it. Everything is balanced, it's the strategic points that turn the game around, along with units but STRATEGY is what you should go for.
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