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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 14 2004 04:28 Travin wrote:
The changes i would like to be done is:
Hydra hp 90
Scv cooldown raised
irradiate tech longer
protoss weapon upgrade longer
lurker burrow slightly faster
walkyrie hp raise to 220 (3 scourge needed)
observer hp raised by 10 or 20
archon morph time longer
EINAR ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND???
Hydras are strong enough already -_-
SCV Cooldown.. possibly but uh even more vulnerable @ 12 vs 3 -.-
Irradiate tech longer.. Possibly but ZvT is damn balanced -_- Even though on pro levels I have heard complaints about irradiate so I guess -.-
PROTOSS WEAPON UPGRADE STAYS THE SAME THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
Lurkers burrow god damn fast enough  !
Valkyrie --------------I dunno I think this would make island (not semi island) completely impossible for Z ;o
Observer, yeah sure why not :O! That'd be good but not neccessary -.-
ARCHON MORPH TIME LONGER???
No never. Especially with the hydra change that would suck a lot, seriously it would make PvZ really fucking hard early game-- And add to that the higher weapons upgrade time--
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Sweden33719 Posts
I played a few PvZ's vs a friend of mine who decided to use queens.. Do you have any idea how fucking annoying it was?
He used the walls and cliffs to constantly parasite and brood my units. He just parasited my DA's then he kept well clear of them, I managed to get ONE (1) feedback in all game..
Whenever I would attack he'd brood my templars and ensnare my units, making his mass graded lings lethal together with sunks..
Anyone saying queens are underpowered = dumb!
Oh and just watch drones reps, or sonic)black or )is(City :/
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scout boost, yamato 100, carrier cost more food, dark archon mealstorm 75, queen getting x2 energy healing rate or something maybe, and also turret 50 would be nice, rememeber they can ONLY hit air and they are damn weak too  in zvz...1 spore can delay 8 muttas and even killing 1 for like 10 seconds...a turret will die in 2 seconds ; P althought spore cost 100 more minerals...
also ghost should start with their range upgrade so u can nuke right away and just have to upgrade lockdown if u go that or cloak if u go nuke =]
also make x2 on energy rate for ghost = ]
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Sweden33719 Posts
ROFL I truly hope that was a joke :D GOD DAMN
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Sweden33719 Posts
Btw spore is 75 + 50 + 50 (drone)
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the only thing i'd like to see is irridiate change to 100 or even 125 energy.or change its dmg to 100 or so.
cuz..damn it kills evry z unit(except ultra) in 1 cast + splash dmg on ground and air for 75. that sucks.
if u have only 3-4 vessels in a game u'll have at least 12+ free kills.
OR make broodling to 75 energy too and see how t's whine if the same thing happens to them...
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gopgo turret 50 minerals =))) so i can camp terr more
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 14 2004 06:55 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
the only thing i'd like to see is irridiate change to 100 or even 125 energy.or change its dmg to 100 or so.
cuz..damn it kills evry z unit(except ultra) in 1 cast + splash dmg on ground and air for 75. that sucks.
if u have only 3-4 vessels in a game u'll have at least 12+ free kills.
OR make broodling to 75 energy too and see how t's whine if the same thing happens to them...
Remove mass kill spells and Z's will have a field day.
100 is way much, guardian rush would rape.
75 sounds about okay, maybe make it last for a shorter amount of time or deal less splash damage :O
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come on Blozz made Mind Control, hallucination and Infested Terran mostly thinking of noobs...
Queen are still fine but DA and Scout should be upp.
DA as you mention Lower maelstrom to 75 energy and as a basic spell (seriously, nobody wants to waste 2DT and money for the maelstorm upp in the early or middle game)
And scout.... just get rid off it
tank/carr damage might change also be good thing
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Sweden33719 Posts
It is a late game spell caster anyway --
DAs rock on islands, and late game PvZ -_-
Feedback is an awesome spell if zerg brings out defilers or queens which they are quite likely to do if you start dt + sairing : )
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On September 14 2004 11:31 FrozenArbiter wrote:
It is a late game spell caster anyway --
DAs rock on islands, and late game PvZ -_-
Feedback is an awesome spell if zerg brings out defilers or queens which they are quite likely to do if you start dt + sairing : )
is not true that DA is only a late game spell. Giving DA mealstorm as a basic and 75 cost spell, would encourage more people to try DT against zerg. One of the problem with early DT + sairs is that its getting rape badly if your opponent goes mass muta + scorge, bc you wont have enough gas for sairs to protect you, but with DA mealstorm it should not be a problem anymore.
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ALL buildings should have some way of showing whether or not a unit is being made and whether or not it is upgradings. It's frustrating that some buildings don't reveal this and it makes it a bit unfair. Like gateways or citadel speed upgrade.
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Part of the problem with a lot of these suggestions is that, you don't need to use every unit to consider the game "balanced". The game is balanced, with Protoss at a slight disadvantage according to the statistics I've seen posted in other threads. When you say balanced, and the go on to explain your changes, what you're really saying is that some units are underused. Which is of course a separate thing from game balance. And every unit doesn't need to be used every game, they just need to be available to create a viable strategy. The tricky thing, is this depends on the players as well as the units, so if players aren't adept/creative enough to use them well, the unit doesn't necessarily need tweaking. So on this theory I continue my post:
Infested Terrans: These aren't intended for every game use. They are intended to be a fun unit, that if you get the opportunity to use well then great. Zerg already has enough harrassment and siege options, and so to those who would make this unit more available, stronger etc. it doesn't need to happen.
Queens: Broodling is already awesome, it doesn't need a mana reduction. A mana reduction would make it super abusable ZvP in particular. One thing I would change about queens, would be that you shouldn't be able to parasite archons: because you either keep it with your army and the Zerg player gets to know exactly what your army is doing, or you kill it/leave it at your base and you've wasted 300 gas. For 100 mana, either option is too powerful.
Dark Archons: I could see this being tweaked a bit. Keep maelstrom the same cost, but have maelstrom be the DA's first ability and make feedback trainable instead.
Scouts: Initially intended to counter Terran tanks  and battlecruisers, it's tough to re-make its role in the Protoss army. Basically, you're not going to mass scouts vs. any ground unit and corsairs are better anti-air all-around. So, slightly lower cost, and inherent speed upgrade would make this unit reasonable but still not usable except in The Stove.
High Templars: Hallucinate is fine, when players (and they have already) come up with cool strategies with this spell, it's cool because it's hard to use and making this spell more available isn't necessary PvT is already balanced, and no immediate PvZ uses spring to mind. Storm killing lurkers in one hit I would be interested to see come back as it would make the lurker contain less effective, and Protoss players could more easily guard their cliffs from being lurkered. If Terran players get to kill lurkers with a one-hit spell (irradiate) why shouldn't Protoss, who are already at a disadvantage?
Sci Vessels: Terrans (as do Protoss) need free kills vs. Zerg.
In conclusion, part of what makes BW an interesting game is diversity of unit strengths, and having all units having around the same utility strength would make the game boring. When players pull off effective strategies using "weak" units, then it's really something to be awed of, and changing around the units would take that away. And do we really need to balance this game? All matchups are at about a 50% win/loss ratio.
PS: A lot of the suggestions with unit problems have already been solved by progamers.
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Almost everything said was about spells, but there's still the most imbalanced unit in all the game: The damn vulture. For only 75 minerals, you have a thing that kills workers in 2 shots. You can have 3 local detectors. you can kill as many zealots (100) as your micro is able to. They're the fastest unit in all the game. They work for all ground protoss units. I think the damage should be reduced to 15 or so, and cost increased to 75+25 or 100+0, and mine research to 150/150 or 200/200.
Also a kind of splash damage of 70 in tanks is too hard. Maybe 50 + 4 per upgrade would be ok.
And the damn medics heal too fast, I think. It should be a bit slower.
Irradiate: increased to 100 and less splash damage.
Goliath ground and air range reduced by 1.
Ghost damage to normal but 8 or 9.
Wraith initial armor of 1.
Marine's stim pack cost 5 of not-healable life.
About protoss: Corsair fire rate slower.
Reaver scarab's damage upgrade cheaper. Maybe 150/150
Zealot shield/armor back to 80/80. That 100 armor with 1 for initial armor is too hard early in game.
Dragoon fire rate slightly improved, maybe through a research.
Shorter stasis field.
Longer maelstrom.
Zergs:
Burrow researched at lair, not hatchery.
Less lurker damage. Their strength is the ability to cloak, not the damage.
Scourge's life to 35 or 40.
Devourer's fire rate slightly increased, and armor decreased to 1.
Hydralisk's damage to 8 normal or so.
Zergling's life 40 and 4 initial damage, with +1 with adrenaline glands.
Defiler's plague cost 125.
Many changes, aren't they? 
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 14 2004 21:21 Geval wrote: Show nested quote +On September 14 2004 11:31 FrozenArbiter wrote:
It is a late game spell caster anyway --
DAs rock on islands, and late game PvZ -_-
Feedback is an awesome spell if zerg brings out defilers or queens which they are quite likely to do if you start dt + sairing : ) is not true that DA is only a late game spell. Giving DA mealstorm as a basic and 75 cost spell, would encourage more people to try DT against zerg. One of the problem with early DT + sairs is that its getting rape badly if your opponent goes mass muta + scorge, bc you wont have enough gas for sairs to protect you, but with DA mealstorm it should not be a problem anymore.
You could also make defilers buildable from hatcheries if you like!!
If you 1 gate dt sair you should have enough gas for either archon or cannon templar -- And you are going cannons eitherway as the main goal of early sair dt is to get a fast expo -.-
Btw, have you not seen intotherain vs like isaac or something? He does what you said, pretty much, just fine with 100 mana mael --
75 would mean you can't muta harass at all anymore.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 14 2004 23:51 A3iL3r0n wrote: Part of the problem with a lot of these suggestions is that, you don't need to use every unit to consider the game "balanced". The game is balanced, with Protoss at a slight disadvantage according to the statistics I've seen posted in other threads. When you say balanced, and the go on to explain your changes, what you're really saying is that some units are underused. Which is of course a separate thing from game balance. And every unit doesn't need to be used every game, they just need to be available to create a viable strategy. The tricky thing, is this depends on the players as well as the units, so if players aren't adept/creative enough to use them well, the unit doesn't necessarily need tweaking. So on this theory I continue my post: Infested Terrans: These aren't intended for every game use. They are intended to be a fun unit, that if you get the opportunity to use well then great. Zerg already has enough harrassment and siege options, and so to those who would make this unit more available, stronger etc. it doesn't need to happen. Queens: Broodling is already awesome, it doesn't need a mana reduction. A mana reduction would make it super abusable ZvP in particular. One thing I would change about queens, would be that you shouldn't be able to parasite archons: because you either keep it with your army and the Zerg player gets to know exactly what your army is doing, or you kill it/leave it at your base and you've wasted 300 gas. For 100 mana, either option is too powerful. Dark Archons: I could see this being tweaked a bit. Keep maelstrom the same cost, but have maelstrom be the DA's first ability and make feedback trainable instead. Scouts: Initially intended to counter Terran tanks and battlecruisers, it's tough to re-make its role in the Protoss army. Basically, you're not going to mass scouts vs. any ground unit and corsairs are better anti-air all-around. So, slightly lower cost, and inherent speed upgrade would make this unit reasonable but still not usable except in The Stove. High Templars: Hallucinate is fine, when players (and they have already) come up with cool strategies with this spell, it's cool because it's hard to use and making this spell more available isn't necessary PvT is already balanced, and no immediate PvZ uses spring to mind. Storm killing lurkers in one hit I would be interested to see come back as it would make the lurker contain less effective, and Protoss players could more easily guard their cliffs from being lurkered. If Terran players get to kill lurkers with a one-hit spell (irradiate) why shouldn't Protoss, who are already at a disadvantage? Sci Vessels: Terrans (as do Protoss) need free kills vs. Zerg. In conclusion, part of what makes BW an interesting game is diversity of unit strengths, and having all units having around the same utility strength would make the game boring. When players pull off effective strategies using "weak" units, then it's really something to be awed of, and changing around the units would take that away. And do we really need to balance this game? All matchups are at about a 50% win/loss ratio. PS: A lot of the suggestions with unit problems have already been solved by progamers.
Actually P is really only behind on LTish maps;; In the top 25 PGR21 rating there is 9 P's 8 T's 8 Z's (well one random/T in chrh)
Though it should be said that one of the Z's (jinnam) = retired (not sure if byun is still top 25 can't remember)
2 of the P's (Intotherain, garimto) retired and grrr slumping badly
Chrh slumping pretty badly.
And that only one (Reach) P is in the top 10 (he's the only one with the same amount of games as the other top players though :O)
But it's all map dependant ~~;;
Btw, parasite is only 50 or 75 mana IIRC T_T
Kill-lurker-in-one-shot psi would be bad, they changed that for a reason :O
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 15 2004 09:41 Soun wrote: Almost everything said was about spells, but there's still the most imbalanced unit in all the game: The damn vulture. For only 75 minerals, you have a thing that kills workers in 2 shots. You can have 3 local detectors. you can kill as many zealots (100) as your micro is able to. They're the fastest unit in all the game. They work for all ground protoss units. I think the damage should be reduced to 15 or so, and cost increased to 75+25 or 100+0, and mine research to 150/150 or 200/200. Also a kind of splash damage of 70 in tanks is too hard. Maybe 50 + 4 per upgrade would be ok. And the damn medics heal too fast, I think. It should be a bit slower. Irradiate: increased to 100 and less splash damage. Goliath ground and air range reduced by 1. Ghost damage to normal but 8 or 9. Wraith initial armor of 1. Marine's stim pack cost 5 of not-healable life. About protoss: Corsair fire rate slower. Reaver scarab's damage upgrade cheaper. Maybe 150/150 Zealot shield/armor back to 80/80. That 100 armor with 1 for initial armor is too hard early in game. Dragoon fire rate slightly improved, maybe through a research. Shorter stasis field. Longer maelstrom. Zergs: Burrow researched at lair, not hatchery. Less lurker damage. Their strength is the ability to cloak, not the damage. Scourge's life to 35 or 40. Devourer's fire rate slightly increased, and armor decreased to 1. Hydralisk's damage to 8 normal or so. Zergling's life 40 and 4 initial damage, with +1 with adrenaline glands. Defiler's plague cost 125. Many changes, aren't they?
...!
?!?!?!?
!??
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PvT and ZvT happen to be pretty much perfectly balanced, and PvZ is damn close to (note: I know all 3 matchups are map dependant).
Your changes are INSANE!
PvT is already 50/50 which means your changes would make P win more like 85% of the time.
ZvT is just about 50/50, your changes would be insane too though your changes for both zerg and terran are quite insane so I dunno might still be balanced but you'd basically make both die horribly to toss -.-
And 80/80 became 100/80 for a very good reason
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sun is rigging zerg so bad and shitting terran i hope he wasnt serious
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I don't agree with those 50/50 in zvt and pvt. Just have a look on any replay page, or look at the top 10 players. I think terran is the best race, just remember always the #1 gamer has been a terran. I don't think it's just for luck.
And the last change in zeals was from 60/100 from 80/80
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I won a game last night thx to nukes, and almost lost it due to queens parasiting and ensnaring everything. I think it's balanced. If there was a unit I'd change it would be dark archons. Don't know what I'd do with them though. Give them an explosive ranged attacK?
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EPT
