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Serious Balance Changes Suggestions Topic - Page 17

Forum Index > BW General
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Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33723 Posts
September 15 2004 03:55 GMT
#321
Neogamei statistics shows PvT PvZ ZvT all being reasonably balanced (not perfectly - but close - balanced pvz on LT but that's not even what you are on about) with PvT and ZvT being 50/50 and PvZ pretty close to it.

There's 4 terran grandmasters, Boxer, Nada, Xellos, OOv. Who is there beyond that? Who does great in the prelims etc..

Boxer is the most popular player in korea, of course there will be loads of terran replays and terran players around!!!

The OGN starleague has been won by:

Boxer (2 times win)
Nada (once)
Xellos (Once)
Sync (Once)
July (Once)
Grrr (once)
Garimto (twice)
Reach (once)
Kingdom (once)
Nal_ra (once)

The KPGA/MBC starleague has had nada winning it 4 times, oov 3 times boxer once yellow once nal_ra once and intotherain once (I think). Maybe garimto won one as well..
This isn't due to t imbalance but MAP IMBALANCE..
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Eclipse.fX
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Canada125 Posts
September 15 2004 03:56 GMT
#322
I don't know if this has been brought up, but I think fixing dark swarm so that Siege Tank splash damage didn't kill units under the swarm would assist greatly in balancing lategame ZvT.
24949
Oxygen
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
Canada3581 Posts
September 15 2004 04:03 GMT
#323
On July 07 2004 15:17 tfeign wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2004 15:15 Ryan307 wrote:
. . .
This game is balanced, queens do not suck, defilers are indeed good.

Don't try to change the game, it will just fuck things up



And anyone who doesn't agree with anything I said, give me a reason why.

By the way, a reason isn't simply saying oh "queens don't suck." A reason means pointing out evidence from pro replays where choosing the underused unit over the other was a better decision.

Please answer my question because I have asked it many times now...how many times have you seen a professional player choosing to go queens over defilers and it turned out he made a good decision? Probably less than 5 times.

How many times have you seen a professional player choosing to go defilers over queens and it turned out he made a good decision? Probably thousands of times


Queens own. They aren't used too much, but I'm pretty sure Twisted ha used them a few times. Queen broodling at 100 energy is too powerful IMO. TvZ it would rape the tanks too hard, and thus if you can't micro too well you lose the matchup entirely (you can make up for your loss of micro with tanks... though it won't be as effective). Besides, you can't know when a player is making that decision.

Scouts are pretty good already. They own the shit out of BCs. DA's feedback is awesome. You underestimate it.
Dont drink and derive. TSL: Made with Balls.
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33723 Posts
September 15 2004 04:08 GMT
#324
On September 15 2004 13:03 Oxygen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2004 15:17 tfeign wrote:
On July 07 2004 15:15 Ryan307 wrote:
. . .
This game is balanced, queens do not suck, defilers are indeed good.

Don't try to change the game, it will just fuck things up



And anyone who doesn't agree with anything I said, give me a reason why.

By the way, a reason isn't simply saying oh "queens don't suck." A reason means pointing out evidence from pro replays where choosing the underused unit over the other was a better decision.

Please answer my question because I have asked it many times now...how many times have you seen a professional player choosing to go queens over defilers and it turned out he made a good decision? Probably less than 5 times.

How many times have you seen a professional player choosing to go defilers over queens and it turned out he made a good decision? Probably thousands of times


Queens own. They aren't used too much, but I'm pretty sure Twisted ha used them a few times. Queen broodling at 100 energy is too powerful IMO. TvZ it would rape the tanks too hard, and thus if you can't micro too well you lose the matchup entirely (you can make up for your loss of micro with tanks... though it won't be as effective). Besides, you can't know when a player is making that decision.

Scouts are pretty good already. They own the shit out of BCs. DA's feedback is awesome. You underestimate it.

-.-
Then if you are good at micro they'll just ensnare you and it's all for naught!
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Geval
Profile Joined September 2004
788 Posts
September 15 2004 05:29 GMT
#325
I was thinking about some agressive sairs+DT. By the way how many "intotherain vs like isaac" games have you seen. You can also argue that P should go arbiter v Z ----> look garimto.
Got the point?
But I do agree that if that happens "you can't muta harass at all anymore"

I tried to come up with several new things
... 100 web for sairs ( would make PvZ and PvT none island games more interesting, but on island maps....)
... cheaper reaver or speed to shuttle (balance ground, but island..)
... arbiter cheaper (would balance late PvZ, but would also give late TvP a hard time)
... +3 attack lots kill +3 deffense links (would balance the late PvZ but most of the PvZ practicaly ends up during the middle game)

on the other hand
..hydras can be weaker (zerg would go muta more often in ZvP and ZvT)
and tank weaker or -1 to siege range (wich would balance ZvT if the hydras get weaker, and force TvP to be more creative) at the same time the carrs need 8 supply ---> no massing carrs
WOW cant believe LT gave me BETA KEY thx thx thx thx thx
RiSE
Profile Joined April 2004
United States3182 Posts
Last Edited: 2004-09-15 05:41:25
September 15 2004 05:39 GMT
#326
I totally agree with lowering mana cost for sairs. 125 mana for that little of duration and area of effect is sad.
heavy hand upon the land, feel it's weight inside you
Travin
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Sweden672 Posts
Last Edited: 2004-09-15 05:48:04
September 15 2004 05:41 GMT
#327
On September 15 2004 12:56 Eclipse.fX wrote:
I don't know if this has been brought up, but I think fixing dark swarm so that Siege Tank splash damage didn't kill units under the swarm would assist greatly in balancing lategame ZvT.

As if lategame zvt isnt hard enough-- ah i thought u meant making lurkers wurnerable sorry
Travin
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Sweden672 Posts
September 15 2004 05:42 GMT
#328
On September 15 2004 14:29 Geval wrote:
I was thinking about some agressive sairs+DT. By the way how many "intotherain vs like isaac" games have you seen. You can also argue that P should go arbiter v Z ----> look garimto.
Got the point?
But I do agree that if that happens "you can't muta harass at all anymore"

I tried to come up with several new things
... 100 web for sairs ( would make PvZ and PvT none island games more interesting, but on island maps....)
... cheaper reaver or speed to shuttle (balance ground, but island..)
... arbiter cheaper (would balance late PvZ, but would also give late TvP a hard time)
... +3 attack lots kill +3 deffense links (would balance the late PvZ but most of the PvZ practicaly ends up during the middle game)

on the other hand
..hydras can be weaker (zerg would go muta more often in ZvP and ZvT)
and tank weaker or -1 to siege range (wich would balance ZvT if the hydras get weaker, and force TvP to be more creative) at the same time the carrs need 8 supply ---> no massing carrs

yeah maybe we should make goons weaker and lets put in marines to maybe 30 hp OR not hydras are weak as hell
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33723 Posts
September 15 2004 05:43 GMT
#329
On September 15 2004 14:29 Geval wrote:
I was thinking about some agressive sairs+DT. By the way how many "intotherain vs like isaac" games have you seen. You can also argue that P should go arbiter v Z ----> look garimto.
Got the point?
But I do agree that if that happens "you can't muta harass at all anymore"

I tried to come up with several new things
... 100 web for sairs ( would make PvZ and PvT none island games more interesting, but on island maps....)
... cheaper reaver or speed to shuttle (balance ground, but island..)
... arbiter cheaper (would balance late PvZ, but would also give late TvP a hard time)
... +3 attack lots kill +3 deffense links (would balance the late PvZ but most of the PvZ practicaly ends up during the middle game)

on the other hand
..hydras can be weaker (zerg would go muta more often in ZvP and ZvT)
and tank weaker or -1 to siege range (wich would balance ZvT if the hydras get weaker, and force TvP to be more creative) at the same time the carrs need 8 supply ---> no massing carrs

It just shows it's viable.

Zerg was muta harassing. One mael one storm gg. 12 mutas GONE!

And I feelt he 3+ lot kills 3 + ling in 2 hits = GREAT!
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Travin
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Sweden672 Posts
September 15 2004 05:43 GMT
#330
On September 15 2004 14:39 RiSE wrote:
I totally agree with lowering mana cost for sairs. 125 mana for that little of duration and area of effect is sad.

dweb lasts for about 20 seconds isnt that enough?
TanGo
Profile Joined March 2003
Sweden1019 Posts
September 15 2004 05:44 GMT
#331
I think they should just fucking skip the annoying strictness of spell/ability costs, why can't a ability costs like 80? does it have to be 25-50-75-100-125 etc.. Just pisses me off since it is a lot easier to balance the cost without using strict costs.
Kram
bburn
Profile Joined September 2004
United States1039 Posts
September 15 2004 05:46 GMT
#332
On September 15 2004 12:56 Eclipse.fX wrote:
I don't know if this has been brought up, but I think fixing dark swarm so that Siege Tank splash damage didn't kill units under the swarm would assist greatly in balancing lategame ZvT.


That would greatly unbalance late game TvZ as it would allow terrans only the sci vessel to fight dark swarm. Now this may not be much of a issue but this would make it rediculiously hard for terrans when they are playing against a one base tech ---> lurker/defilers as the terran would not be able to get enough sci vessels to kill any decent force so zerg could just go ling lurker defilier and roll over the terran.
banana[AfO]
Travin
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Sweden672 Posts
September 15 2004 05:49 GMT
#333
On September 15 2004 14:44 TanGo wrote:
I think they should just fucking skip the annoying strictness of spell/ability costs, why can't a ability costs like 80? does it have to be 25-50-75-100-125 etc.. Just pisses me off since it is a lot easier to balance the cost without using strict costs.

lets see, we have heal as 1
Eclipse.fX
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Canada125 Posts
September 15 2004 05:50 GMT
#334
On September 15 2004 14:46 bburn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2004 12:56 Eclipse.fX wrote:
I don't know if this has been brought up, but I think fixing dark swarm so that Siege Tank splash damage didn't kill units under the swarm would assist greatly in balancing lategame ZvT.


That would greatly unbalance late game TvZ as it would allow terrans only the sci vessel to fight dark swarm. Now this may not be much of a issue but this would make it rediculiously hard for terrans when they are playing against a one base tech ---> lurker/defilers as the terran would not be able to get enough sci vessels to kill any decent force so zerg could just go ling lurker defilier and roll over the terran.


Perhaps some sort of middle ground could be found, normally by the time Zerg is lurkers/defilers Terran is going to have a whole vessel cloud, as it is now the lurkers just die, maybe 1-2 survive if any at all.

Perhaps just lower the splash done by tanks to units under swarm?

Terran "could" use firebats... *laugh* :p

24949
Travin
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Sweden672 Posts
Last Edited: 2004-09-15 05:56:17
September 15 2004 05:51 GMT
#335
how about raising scv cooldown so we would have less cheese in ladders -........- [edit] RAISING NOT LOWERING
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33723 Posts
September 15 2004 05:52 GMT
#336
On September 15 2004 14:50 Eclipse.fX wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2004 14:46 bburn wrote:
On September 15 2004 12:56 Eclipse.fX wrote:
I don't know if this has been brought up, but I think fixing dark swarm so that Siege Tank splash damage didn't kill units under the swarm would assist greatly in balancing lategame ZvT.


That would greatly unbalance late game TvZ as it would allow terrans only the sci vessel to fight dark swarm. Now this may not be much of a issue but this would make it rediculiously hard for terrans when they are playing against a one base tech ---> lurker/defilers as the terran would not be able to get enough sci vessels to kill any decent force so zerg could just go ling lurker defilier and roll over the terran.


Perhaps some sort of middle ground could be found, normally by the time Zerg is lurkers/defilers Terran is going to have a whole vessel cloud, as it is now the lurkers just die, maybe 1-2 survive if any at all.

Perhaps just lower the splash done by tanks to units under swarm?

Terran "could" use firebats... *laugh* :p


?
They completely fucking RAPE under swarm? Zerg gets hydras under swarms? Then you send in bats. Zerg has lings under? Bats.

Only problem is when they have tons of lurkers under, but you can just matrix a few bats and go.
Bats are really underused TvZ late game at low levels at least
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Tien
Profile Joined January 2003
Russian Federation4447 Posts
September 15 2004 05:52 GMT
#337
TvZ and ZvT is BALANCED. Stop messing around with it. Although I think early game bunker gaynesses should be changed. Like taking longer to make a bunker.

Controlling defilers is super hard too. I find it much harder to control defilers than controlling m+m armies. Defilers would be useless if they made swarm weaker.
We decide our own destiny
Travin
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Sweden672 Posts
September 15 2004 05:57 GMT
#338
On September 15 2004 14:52 Tien wrote:
TvZ and ZvT is BALANCED. Stop messing around with it. Although I think early game bunker gaynesses should be changed. Like taking longer to make a bunker.

Controlling defilers is super hard too. I find it much harder to control defilers than controlling m+m armies. Defilers would be useless if they made swarm weaker.


thats what i meant by raising scv cooldown it sorta makes bunkeruch useless if ure sending drones to fight in time
TanGo
Profile Joined March 2003
Sweden1019 Posts
September 15 2004 06:58 GMT
#339
On September 15 2004 14:49 Travin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 15 2004 14:44 TanGo wrote:
I think they should just fucking skip the annoying strictness of spell/ability costs, why can't a ability costs like 80? does it have to be 25-50-75-100-125 etc.. Just pisses me off since it is a lot easier to balance the cost without using strict costs.

lets see, we have heal as 1

You go to hell. And you go to hell and you die!!!
Kram
Geval
Profile Joined September 2004
788 Posts
Last Edited: 2004-09-15 07:20:37
September 15 2004 07:20 GMT
#340
Goons without ht are already loosing to mass hydra...
WOW cant believe LT gave me BETA KEY thx thx thx thx thx
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