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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
Giyom's scout rape vs XellOs comes to mind. I can't remember which game it was and I can't remember the zerg, but I've seen a game that came down to the wire and was won by Reach when he mass maelstromed a gigantic zerg army and stormed it all. The game is balanced right now. Changing it would fuck up the game. Plus it wouldn't be nearly as much fun with EVERY unit being equally useful. | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
On July 07 2004 15:23 STIMEY d okgm fish wrote: Good balance means a player has to actually think and decide... you're absolutely right. decisions certainly can be made a lot less obvious in BW right now. anyone who disagrees with this is fucking dumb and probably thinks every version is perfectly balanced (at the time) so they should just stay out of this discussion. if u can be sure that a unit could be made more powerful or less expensive without it breaking any matchup (and in many cases you can) then u really should realize that is a hint the game is not completely perfectly balanced and that yes, it can be made at least slightly better. Exactly. Stimey hits it on the spot. Starcraft is such a great game because of its balance. Why does starcraft have such balance? Because balance = players have to actually think and decide. For example, a protoss player has to think and decide whether to either go goons + obs, goons + dts, goons + speed zeals, fast exp, reaver drop...etc...because each of these strategies are all effective. But there is more balance to be made because certain strategies are ineffective (dark archons, queens, scouts, etc.) . And I suggested most of them. | ||
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Ryan307 :)
United States1289 Posts
On July 07 2004 15:27 Rt-S.FakeSteve wrote: Making scouts significantly more powerful would simply rape zerg, too  | ||
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NazDreG
France46 Posts
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Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
I would make medics less powerful. The fucking terran dropship is way tooooo strong. That thing alone can take out a zerg base. | ||
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useLess
United States4781 Posts
whens the last time you saw valkyries affect the outcome of the game? no soup for joo!! seriously though, each unit and skill has their own purposes, and although some have more showtime than others, the units are good as it is. the game is the definition of balanced (in my book, The Definition of Balanced) | ||
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Eniram
Sudan3166 Posts
On July 07 2004 15:17 fheow wrote: Maybe u should make a ums map with these changes and test it out. it ll be interesting Sounds like a plan. Somebody give me a list of changes and i'll make it | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
100/100 lurk research 100 turret gogogo 1.07!!!!!!! | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
On July 07 2004 15:37 useless wrote: whens the last time you saw broodlings affect the outcome of the game? toss them out! whens the last time you saw valkyries affect the outcome of the game? no soup for joo!! Broodlings = a spell of the queen that is underpowered, that's why I suggested making spawn broodling 100 energy instead of 150 so players may now think of going queens and use broodlings on tanks / templars to change the outcome of a game. Valkyrie -- Thanks for reminding me. I forgot to put this in. I wouldn't mind at all if valkyries are given more armor so that terran players have an option of going valkyries to counter carriers instead of wraiths all the time. Either that or give valkyries a small air-to-ground attack so that plays can decide whether to make valkyries from time to time. | ||
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MPXMX
Canada4309 Posts
I agree with everything stimey and tfeign said except I don't know how big the changes would need to be and how it would affect the game. I concur that if useless units are made slightly better to have a more comfortable place in the game, things would be more interesting. This would have to be tested very very well and would be really hard to do because almost every little change affects about 100 things about the game. Tfein's suggestions are quite careful ... | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28714 Posts
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MPXMX
Canada4309 Posts
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sGa.Mac
Argentina34 Posts
And i think it would be VERY difficult to be AT LEAST at the same level of balance than before... In fact, i think that SC is some kind of weird Frankestein that managed to get A LOT better than it was originally thinked... (Srry bout my sucky english ^^; ) | ||
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STIMEY d okgm fish
Canada6140 Posts
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Arg.Iceman
Argentina213 Posts
On July 07 2004 14:58 tfeign wrote: I can't wait until a new balance patch comes out. Say all you want about balance, you're all in denial that many units are overused while many others are underused. How I see it: Dark Archon: This unit is WAY underused. Simply because it costs too much $ and you have to surrender 2 DTs, plus, it costs alot of energy to cast any real useful spells. In pvz you will see high templar prefered over dark archon 99.9% of the time. Good balance means a player has to actually think and decide...hey should I go dark archon or high templar this game? My suggestion: Lower Mind Control to 125 energy. Lower maelstrom to 75 energy. Lower Maeltrom to 75 is ok, cause 100 is too expensive, but the Mind Control thing would just make the DA a monster like somebody already said. High Templar hallucinations: This spell is way underused because quite frankly it costs way too much energy for their effectiveness except in a few rare circumstances. How many times have you seen hallucinations changed the outcome of a game? Now how many times have you seen storm changed the outcome of a game? Balance it to the point where a player must actually think and decide...hmmm should I get hallucination first or storm first? My suggestion: Reduce hallucination cost to 75 energy. Hallucinated units should take 1.5x damage instead of 2x. hallucination is ok, being able to hallucinate three times per ht would be too much, plus the player would not have to decide too much (make 12 hall units with 2 ht, the rest goes for storm). Scout: Seriously, why is this thing called a scout when a corsair is always used for scouting? Can anyone explain? The scout's air-to-ground damage is downright pathetic. Again ask yourself, how many times have I seen scouts changed the outcome of the game? Then ask yourself, how many times have I seen corsairs changed the outcome of the game? My suggestion: 1. Eliminate the speed and sight range upgrade for the scout -- scouts should have these upgrades already. Who in their right mind would spend 200/200 to give a scout 1 more matrix in sight range? 2. Increase the scout air-to-ground damage by 4. changing the scout is ok, but what you are saying is WAAAAY too much. Air to ground damage should not be incresed, the cooldown should be decreased. Speed upgrade should be already included. Don't bother talking about sight upgrade, it's pretty much useless. Queen: WAY underused unit, and rightfully so because queens suck ass for their cost-effectiveness. Defiler can consume to get basically unlimited energy. Dark swarm is a scare and plague rocks. My suggestion: Reduce ensnare cost to 50 energy. Reduce broodling cost to 100 energy. This will also make zerg stronger in island maps. Queen is not so bad, esnare is fine like it is (u can esnare 3 times per queen) decreasing it to 50 would be just overkill. Brood ling should be 125 not 100 like u say, just enogh so you can use it twice. Infested Terran: This is probably the worst unit in the game. Seriously, I can't think of any unit that are worse than infested terrans regarding cost-effectiveness. In order to steal a command center it is very hard, so if a zerg player manages to steal a cc, he should be rewarded with something more than the ability to make units that can never make a real difference. When was the last time you saw infested terrans changed the outcome of the game? Seriously, I'm not kidding when I say this is the worst balanced unit there is. The reason is because they have too little hitpoints and die before they can do any damage. My suggestion: Increase their hit points from 60 to 100. 100 hitponits, again, its too much, maybe 80. Or cost should be reduced to 50/50. Btw, drop 1 or 2 in a min line and tell me if it isn't effective. Also to name a few more: In PvT, when terran has a massive amount of tanks late game, it's almost impossible for a protoss ground army to beat it because tanks with maxed weapon upgrades do too much damage. Suggestion: lower the damage in which weapon upgrade gives to tanks. When protoss has a massive amount of carriers late game, it's almost impossible for terran to counter it. Suggestion: Lower the interceptor hit points. We can then see more diverse strategies instead of protoss playing a game of stalling until they can get carriers most of the time. That's not neccesary, you shouldn't need any changes there because you shouldn't let your opponent power up that much (or at least if he gets mass tanks u get mass carrier). - Nukes should cost less. They are underused because they are cost-ineffective. The chances of it working effectively is not worth the cost. maybe 150/150 or 175/175, not more. But the real reason people don't use them is not the cost/effectiveness, but the fact that it's extremely complicated to use it effectively (it requires too much brain). I know some of you are gonna argue and say hey I saw xxx used dark archon / scout / hallucinations... blah blah blah vs xxx and won. Well listen, billions of starcraft games have been played. Out of those billions of games, there just probabilistically HAS to be some games in which an underpowered unit made a difference to the game. How often do you seee that? Almost never. I don't care if you see Grrrr used dark archon to beat ultra/crackling or sKy.Proct using scouts to defeat terran with the stove or hallucinated zealots bombing up tanks....these strats have a very VERY small chance of working effectively. You will never find more than a handful of professional reps where these units made a big difference to the game. In conclusion, no one wants to see high templars chosen instead of dark archons 99.9% of the time, no one wants to see corsairs chosen over scouts 99.9% of the time, no one wants to see defilers chosen over queens 99.9% of the time. The only question is if Blizzard will ever attempt to make another balance patch for the game. It's extremely unlikely that Blizzard made a balance patch , I doubt they they would spend the resources required to try to fix a game they seem to want to die. And even if they did make a balance patch, it would simply screw up the game.One more thing, some said Valks should get more armor to be effective vs carriers, but the valks were never thought to be the counter to carriers, you already have golis and/or wraiths, plus that extra armor would make them own mutas even more than they already do. Ufff, took me like 15 min to write this | ||
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Peatza
Sweden393 Posts
All units have weaknesses, and some should only be used during certain situations. You should question yourself if Blizzard really meant for all units to be equally good, or used equally much. The Main Units are, as i see it. Terran: Marine, Medic, Firebat, Tankz, Vultures, Goliath Protoss: Zealot, Dragoon, Dark Templar, High Templar, Corsair, Reaver&shuttle Zerg: Zergling, Hydra, Lurk, Mutalisk, Scourge Then of course we have the detection units, Overlord, Observer and Vessel which is only needed during detection. These units... Blizzard created them to be common and used widely. Any combination of the units from the 3 races, could be countered by another set of units. Then we have the units which is only to be used during special situations. Terran: Valkyrie, Ghost and Battle Crusier maybe, the situation is, you must have good economy. Protoss: Scout, Archon, Arbiter, Carrier is almost the same as Battle Crusier. Zerg: Devour, Guardain, Defiler The only units that could be made changes to is Dark Archon, and Queens. These units is absolutely not used to the degree they could be... or should be. There are no "special situation" which they are directly needed. | ||
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Eniram
Sudan3166 Posts
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Slipknot
United States295 Posts
On July 07 2004 15:10 Refrain[FriZ] wrote: I agree.Stop it, Starcraft is balanced =/ | ||
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radar14
United States1437 Posts
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