EPTSerious Balance Changes Suggestions Topic - Page 4
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36375 Posts
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RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On July 07 2004 14:58 tfeign wrote: I can't wait until a new balance patch comes out. Say all you want about balance, you're all in denial that many units are overused while many others are underused. Ya, some units are a bit underused yes. How I see it: Dark Archon: This unit is WAY underused. Simply because it costs too much $ and you have to surrender 2 DTs, plus, it costs alot of energy to cast any real useful spells. In pvz you will see high templar prefered over dark archon 99.9% of the time. Good balance means a player has to actually think and decide...hey should I go dark archon or high templar this game? My suggestion: Lower Mind Control to 125 energy. Lower maelstrom to 75 energy. I think the greatest thing about DA's is their 50 mana feedback, that spell is just a killer! Maelstrom *could* possibly be lowered to 75 but I think that it may just as well stay at what it currently is.. 125 for MC? No. Broodling is 150, and should stay that way, I'll get to that later hence even the higher cost of the DA can't justify that I think-.- Maybe, big maybe. I think they are great @ islands PvZ btw  High Templar hallucinations: This spell is way underused because quite frankly it costs way too much energy for their effectiveness except in a few rare circumstances. How many times have you seen hallucinations changed the outcome of a game? Now how many times have you seen storm changed the outcome of a game? Balance it to the point where a player must actually think and decide...hmmm should I get hallucination first or storm first? My suggestion: Reduce hallucination cost to 75 energy. Hallucinated units should take 1.5x damage instead of 2x. I think hallu is fine but I don't think changing it would make too big of an impact (except it might fuck T up some~~~~ big might). Good on islands PvT too I think, it's a nice tactical spell as it is now - not sure if I want that too change, or feel the need for it to. Scout: Seriously, why is this thing called a scout when a corsair is always used for scouting? Can anyone explain? The scout's air-to-ground damage is downright pathetic. Again ask yourself, how many times have I seen scouts changed the outcome of the game? Then ask yourself, how many times have I seen corsairs changed the outcome of the game? My suggestion: 1. Eliminate the speed and sight range upgrade for the scout -- scouts should have these upgrades already. Who in their right mind would spend 200/200 to give a scout 1 more matrix in sight range? 2. Increase the scout air-to-ground damage by 4. Ask maleorderbride if he thinks scouts are bad :D:D:D (internal pike -.- I think that's the word) Anyways, I think the upgrades should either be cheaper or maybe both in one~ or something. The sight upgrade takes FOREVER (like twice as long as speed? More? Can't be arsed to check) to upgrade O_O Queen: WAY underused unit, and rightfully so because queens suck ass for their cost-effectiveness. Defiler can consume to get basically unlimited energy. Dark swarm is a scare and plague rocks. My suggestion: Reduce ensnare cost to 50 energy. Reduce broodling cost to 100 energy. This will also make zerg stronger in island maps. Fuck that. You want to make PvZ IMPOSSIBLE? Seriously, queens - correctly used mind you - are already a pain in the arse.. I think I suggested something like this (not quite as drastic though) and drone explained to me why I was crazy  Infested Terran: This is probably the worst unit in the game. Seriously, I can't think of any unit that are worse than infested terrans regarding cost-effectiveness. In order to steal a command center it is very hard, so if a zerg player manages to steal a cc, he should be rewarded with something more than the ability to make units that can never make a real difference. When was the last time you saw infested terrans changed the outcome of the game? Seriously, I'm not kidding when I say this is the worst balanced unit there is. The reason is because they have too little hitpoints and die before they can do any damage. My suggestion: Increase their hit points from 60 to 100. Gimmick unit yo! It's cool, you can drop them on sup depots, on an army or in scv lines I think it's not as much the infested itself, it's you getting a 750 hp CC down that much faster!Also to name a few more: In PvT, when terran has a massive amount of tanks late game, it's almost impossible for a protoss ground army to beat it because tanks with maxed weapon upgrades do too much damage. Suggestion: lower the damage in which weapon upgrade gives to tanks. When protoss has a massive amount of carriers late game, it's almost impossible for terran to counter it. Suggestion: Lower the interceptor hit points. We can then see more diverse strategies instead of protoss playing a game of stalling until they can get carriers most of the time. I dunno if that'd be good.. Once terran gets to that point toss SHOULD have carriers or be far enough ahead + smart enough not to waste units at a wall of tanks. PvT is balanced. - Nukes should cost less. They are underused because they are cost-ineffective. The chances of it working effectively is not worth the cost. Nukes are fine. I know some of you are gonna argue and say hey I saw xxx used dark archon / scout / hallucinations... blah blah blah vs xxx and won. Well listen, billions of starcraft games have been played. Out of those billions of games, there just probabilistically HAS to be some games in which an underpowered unit made a difference to the game. How often do you seee that? Almost never. I don't care if you see Grrrr used dark archon to beat ultra/crackling or sKy.Proct using scouts to defeat terran with the stove or hallucinated zealots bombing up tanks....these strats have a very VERY small chance of working effectively. You will never find more than a handful of professional reps where these units made a big difference to the game. In conclusion, no one wants to see high templars chosen instead of dark archons 99.9% of the time, no one wants to see corsairs chosen over scouts 99.9% of the time, no one wants to see defilers chosen over queens 99.9% of the time. The only question is if Blizzard will ever attempt to make another balance patch for the game. Not so sure if a new balance patch is needed but if they do, I hope they don't fuck it up~ Anyways, something I've suggested for a long time (I think I first suggested it in the early days of TL.net) is the reaver upgrade for damage to be 28+ instead of 25. That way, when the zerg is at 3+ reavers don't 1 hit KO, but they do before that (could help solve various issues with lurkers, though I must say the toss pro's have gotten signifcantly better at dealing with lurker contains these days - still, it may be good for maps where the gas is sparse like nostalgia). Don't think it will fuck zerg over that bad~~ | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
I really can't imagine how fun it would be if all units and strategic are used... Plz think of it. It would make the game very very very funnier | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On July 07 2004 19:54 RaiZ wrote: it would be fun as hell if there were some units used as effectively as others units cauz i don't see a single Dark archons nor a nuclear launch. Wouldn't it be very very funny if there were all units that are used a lot ? Like queen / nuclear launch / darkarchons and many more... I really can't imagine how fun it would be if all units and strategic are used... Plz think of it. It would make the game very very very funnier I actually think that would make it more dull, if queens and stuff were EASIER to use it would put a lower skill cap on the game. I think people will find great ways to use Dark Archons, I think people will find great ways to use queens. Nukes can be used ~ queens can be used, dark archons can be used, scouts are already used vs BC's and devourers (as well as valkyries I guess?)~ | ||
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RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On July 07 2004 20:01 FrozenArbiter wrote: I actually think that would make it more dull, if queens and stuff were EASIER to use it would put a lower skill cap on the game. I think people will find great ways to use Dark Archons, I think people will find great ways to use queens. Nukes can be used ~ queens can be used, dark archons can be used, scouts are already used vs BC's and devourers (as well as valkyries I guess?)~ Lower skill cap ? How a guys like you who has been experienced starcraft since a short time can think about how usefull queens can be ? Or what good, very good reasons can you give me why queens aren't really used a lot ? Plz dude next time gimme a very good reason to make me think that queens are enough good like it is right now. I don't want to flame you but i think i needed to be as very clear as possible about this change. Cauz i'm playing this game since a long time and i know it would be funnier if others units would have more used in games. Ps : Sorry for my grammar english, i got a lot of troubles about grammar even if i got a good english test for a french ppl like me. plz forgive me or correct me | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On July 07 2004 20:48 RaiZ wrote: Lower skill cap ? How a guys like you who has been experienced starcraft since a short time can think about how usefull queens can be ? Or what good, very good reasons can you give me why queens aren't really used a lot ? Plz dude next time gimme a very good reason to make me think that queens are enough good like it is right now. I don't want to flame you but i think i needed to be as very clear as possible about this change. Cauz i'm playing this game since a long time and i know it would be funnier if others units would have been more used in games. Ps : Sorry for my grammar english, i got a lot of troubles about grammar even if i got a good english test for a french ppl like me. plz forgive me or correct me | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
 I'm too high sorry ppl. | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
How the hell can you think that games will be dull when the weak units are balanced? Think of how fun pvz will be when Dark Archons and queens are made stronger so they can become cost-effective. Battles will become even more micro-intensive than the way they are now. With hallucinations made stronger, carriers weakened, tank weapon upgrade weakened, we will see alot more diversities in pvt instead of stalling until carriers, as protoss may be able to take on terran with massive tanks now with hallucinations, storm, and since tanks doesn't do as much damage at max upgrades. | ||
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Slipknot
United States295 Posts
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NotSorry
United States6722 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On July 07 2004 21:01 NotSorry wrote: What I would like to see is PSI storm doing 1 more damage, so they can kill a unupgraded lurker in one storming. Would really help PvZ, yet wouldn't fuck up PvT. That's how it was in 1.07. | ||
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Purind
Canada3562 Posts
I think that scout's ground damage should remain unchanged. The scout's role is not to take out ground. However, I do agree that the scout needs a buff. I think the mineral cost should be reduced to 250-ish | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On July 07 2004 20:48 RaiZ wrote: Lower skill cap ? How a guys like you who has been experienced starcraft since a short time can think about how usefull queens can be ? Or what good, very good reasons can you give me why queens aren't really used a lot ? Plz dude next time gimme a very good reason to make me think that queens are enough good like it is right now. I don't want to flame you but i think i needed to be as very clear as possible about this change. Cauz i'm playing this game since a long time and i know it would be funnier if others units would have more used in games. Ps : Sorry for my grammar english, i got a lot of troubles about grammar even if i got a good english test for a french ppl like me. plz forgive me or correct me There's quite a few players who use queens succsesfully. Intotherain used to use Dark archons succsesfully. Proof that both units are useable and tampering with them will likely lead to no good-.- 75 mana for ensnare is good enough ^^ Broodling could possibly be made cheaper, but drone has already explained to me why that would suck : ) (try searching 'my balance changes' or something with frozenarbiter as username -.-) Btw, interceptor HP = less = taking islands on maps like LT = even worse. PvT IS FINE! You can't really make DA's cheaper. Why? You want cheaper dark templars -_-? Possibly 100/100 or something -.- Faster mana regenaration maybe. Hallucination is fine, if you wanna put everything at 75... The strategical use of ensnare, hallucination, nukes, maelstrom, feedback etc is the things that add spice to this game.. I'm not going to try to type anything else until I wake up in 7-8 hours, it's 6 am now :D I think a lot of Queen/DA builds could be used in pro circuits IF the risk wasn't so big for most pro games :o Slight buffs, yes sure. But NOTHING like the first post -.- I don't want every unit to be equal, no flare left then~ It's like war 3 sort of.. Well at least how I percieve it. | ||
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NotSorry
United States6722 Posts
Know what, I enjoyed 1.07, even as a zerg player at the time. | ||
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JoeUser
United States684 Posts
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x[ReaPeR]x
United States3447 Posts
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Shaz
United States75 Posts
1.) Increase the starting mana a queen posseses when first spawned. No need to change the mana costs of her spells, because over the long run they are perfectly priced. The concern is that there is a period of time from when you first spawn your queens to when she finally gets 100(or 150) mana that you have a bit of useless tech. Perhaps an increase to 75 or so base mana when spawned would help timing issues, and present queens as a viable early tech solution to tanks, templars,muta, etc. 2.) Either keep scout upgrade prices the same and move them to the cyber core, or decrease their cost while keeping them in the fleet beacon. There is really no sense in the cost that must be incurred just to make scouts fly as fast as other air units while "Scouting" one pixel farther. I think the slight deduction in upgrade costs by either of these methods would at the very least lessen the disincentive that is present for any P user thinking about using scouts in their present match. 3.) Decrease the upgrade cost for many of the +50 mana upgrades. Wraith energy, for example, doesn't need to be 200/200. Sairs, DAs, ghosts, arbiters... most spellcasters could probably benefit from a reduction in their +50 mana upgrades to 100/100 without any real negative impact on the game. Similar in effect to the change that goliaths faced when charons were reduced to 100/100 from 150/150 where a slight reduction in research costs helped players better budget an upgrade that they were going to get anyways if they were planning on using the unit which benefitted from it (and honestly that upgrade is far more game impacting than any of the mana upgrades). There really isn't much that needs to be done to BW, and even the changes i suggested are wholly unnecessary in order for the game to function in a balanced and enjoyable fashion. However, I can't really see much harm in these changes either, and I think they might at the very least affect the mindset of a player when it comes down to whether or not he is going to use an artful queen build or some sexy scout manuvering. | ||
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green-tea.
United States90 Posts
I think that part of people don't use queens/dark archons/ valkyries used is because we don't see them used.(in replays) Then the reason we don't see them used in replays is not certainly because they suck, but simply becasue of personal preference and style. This might sound a bit stupid and incoherent, but in short I think It's simply a lack of orignality That prevents them from being used. I have seen ensnare used to win a game, there was a pvz on about starcraft, where it was used. The only thing I could make a case for buffing would be valks, if they were buffed up a bit, just enough so that a force of valkyries of equivilent cost could compete with carriers. | ||
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