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On September 08 2010 05:57 Vedic wrote:
KeSPA needs to quit while they're ahead. Losing out here is one thing, but inviting a HUGE lawsuit is another. Activision can afford to rape them in court, so this is just childish.
The Korea government might get involve because they are quite proud of their status as the world's leading esport country.
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On September 08 2010 06:01 SevenAteNine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 05:56 mmdmmd wrote:On September 08 2010 05:48 SevenAteNine wrote:On September 08 2010 05:42 maybenexttime wrote:
Afaik Gretech wanted OGN (not MBC) to air GSL in primetime AND demanded compensation (money) for broadcasting GSL. If that's the case, then that's insane.
Does anyone know if that was the case?
SevenAteNine, Gretech did NOT ask for money. When KeSPA asked how much they want, Gretech said that they do not want money but rather ProLeague out of the picture. You are only guessing thats what Gretech wanted when in fact that really was just the end result. Why would you think his opinion is a guess while yours is a fact? i am going by the timeline listed in the OP's post - "Within this process, their demands regarding GSL and moving Proleague's schedule was enough to create a problem" taken directly from the OP, they were only trying to MOVE the schedule but KeSPA didnt want this to happen
Is this from the part titled "Things Said by People""?
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On September 08 2010 06:02 mmdmmd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 05:57 Vedic wrote:
KeSPA needs to quit while they're ahead. Losing out here is one thing, but inviting a HUGE lawsuit is another. Activision can afford to rape them in court, so this is just childish. The Korea government might get involve because they are quite proud of their status as the world's leading esport country.
Seeing as KesPA is a goverment organisation, they already ARE involved.
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On September 08 2010 06:03 mmdmmd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 06:01 SevenAteNine wrote:On September 08 2010 05:56 mmdmmd wrote:On September 08 2010 05:48 SevenAteNine wrote:On September 08 2010 05:42 maybenexttime wrote:
Afaik Gretech wanted OGN (not MBC) to air GSL in primetime AND demanded compensation (money) for broadcasting GSL. If that's the case, then that's insane.
Does anyone know if that was the case?
SevenAteNine, Gretech did NOT ask for money. When KeSPA asked how much they want, Gretech said that they do not want money but rather ProLeague out of the picture. You are only guessing thats what Gretech wanted when in fact that really was just the end result. Why would you think his opinion is a guess while yours is a fact? i am going by the timeline listed in the OP's post - "Within this process, their demands regarding GSL and moving Proleague's schedule was enough to create a problem" taken directly from the OP, they were only trying to MOVE the schedule but KeSPA didnt want this to happen Is this from the title "Things Said by People""?
Of corse its from things said by people, the hard facts are only what time and who was at the meetings.
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On September 08 2010 05:57 Vedic wrote:
KeSPA needs to quit while they're ahead. Losing out here is one thing, but inviting a HUGE lawsuit is another. Activision can afford to rape them in court, so this is just childish.
Think again, who have more money.
Activision is just a small company,
KeSPA Sponsor, SKT alone can take down Activision easily moneywise.
Let alone, SKT, KT, STX, Woonjin,etc, are now working together.
Every one of these names can squash the shit out of Activision single-handedly.
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On September 08 2010 06:01 SevenAteNine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 05:56 mmdmmd wrote:On September 08 2010 05:48 SevenAteNine wrote:On September 08 2010 05:42 maybenexttime wrote:
Afaik Gretech wanted OGN (not MBC) to air GSL in primetime AND demanded compensation (money) for broadcasting GSL. If that's the case, then that's insane.
Does anyone know if that was the case?
SevenAteNine, Gretech did NOT ask for money. When KeSPA asked how much they want, Gretech said that they do not want money but rather ProLeague out of the picture. You are only guessing thats what Gretech wanted when in fact that really was just the end result. Why would you think his opinion is a guess while yours is a fact? i am going by the timeline listed in the OP's post - "Within this process, their demands regarding GSL and moving Proleague's schedule was enough to create a problem" taken directly from the OP, they were only trying to MOVE the schedule but KeSPA didnt want this to happen
That's exactly what I meant by "they wanted Proleague out of the picture". ;;
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On September 08 2010 06:11 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 06:01 SevenAteNine wrote:On September 08 2010 05:56 mmdmmd wrote:On September 08 2010 05:48 SevenAteNine wrote:On September 08 2010 05:42 maybenexttime wrote:
Afaik Gretech wanted OGN (not MBC) to air GSL in primetime AND demanded compensation (money) for broadcasting GSL. If that's the case, then that's insane.
Does anyone know if that was the case?
SevenAteNine, Gretech did NOT ask for money. When KeSPA asked how much they want, Gretech said that they do not want money but rather ProLeague out of the picture. You are only guessing thats what Gretech wanted when in fact that really was just the end result. Why would you think his opinion is a guess while yours is a fact? i am going by the timeline listed in the OP's post - "Within this process, their demands regarding GSL and moving Proleague's schedule was enough to create a problem" taken directly from the OP, they were only trying to MOVE the schedule but KeSPA didnt want this to happen That's exactly what I meant by "they wanted Proleague out of the picture". ;;
yeah but you make it seem like they want to Proleague not to exist when in fact this is not the cause just a response to KeSPA's refusal to cooperate
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omfg this is sad 
i mean not only is this hindering proleague and basically making the death of BW, but its also stopping pro gamers from BW to come over to SC2 which just sucks big balls.
i hope some how this can be resolved, i mean tbh all this fighting is for "show times" i mean wtf? your gonna kill years of effort and epicness just cause you want primetime on tv? thats fucking bullshit
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+ Show Spoiler +
Blizzard's President Mike tell us about his plan with Korean Starcraft scene.
You'll be amazed by his point of view of the proleague
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 08 2010 06:14 Hunch wrote:omfg this is sad i mean not only is this hindering proleague and basically making the death of BW, but its also stopping pro gamers from BW to come over to SC2 which just sucks big balls. i hope some how this can be resolved, i mean tbh all this fighting is for "show times" i mean wtf? your gonna kill years of effort and epicness just cause you want primetime on tv? thats fucking bullshit
Use your brain, of course it is not that simple.
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I hope theres like 10k people watching gsl and like 1 million watching proleague (idk about numbers just an example  ) to prove that sc2 fails as a spectator's sport and osl msl and pl will live forever for me and many other's viewing enjoyments.
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The bullshit is Gretech being against Teams. They don't want ANY in SC2. The team league is what MADE SCBW and it's what made it possible. It's what got it the money. Gretech is scared of teams because of what they did to their league, so now they are destroying any possibility of there being teams. They think it's a smart move, but it's really just destroying the Esports infrustrucutre and replacing it with the individual.
Look around the world, don't we see those kind of Esports communities around? Are any of them even close to what BW had? The answer is: no. They are destroying what made Korea the center of Esports and replacing it with the shadow of Esports that we see around the rest of the world. Blizzard might think it's ok to have Esports like this, but it can never actually become the culturally accepted mania of SCBW if they do this.
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Honestly, I enjoy SC2 matches a lot more by now. I don't really care the fancy league and all.
Just playing and watching for ggs
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On September 08 2010 06:12 SevenAteNine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 06:11 maybenexttime wrote:On September 08 2010 06:01 SevenAteNine wrote:On September 08 2010 05:56 mmdmmd wrote:On September 08 2010 05:48 SevenAteNine wrote:On September 08 2010 05:42 maybenexttime wrote:
Afaik Gretech wanted OGN (not MBC) to air GSL in primetime AND demanded compensation (money) for broadcasting GSL. If that's the case, then that's insane.
Does anyone know if that was the case?
SevenAteNine, Gretech did NOT ask for money. When KeSPA asked how much they want, Gretech said that they do not want money but rather ProLeague out of the picture. You are only guessing thats what Gretech wanted when in fact that really was just the end result. Why would you think his opinion is a guess while yours is a fact? i am going by the timeline listed in the OP's post - "Within this process, their demands regarding GSL and moving Proleague's schedule was enough to create a problem" taken directly from the OP, they were only trying to MOVE the schedule but KeSPA didnt want this to happen That's exactly what I meant by "they wanted Proleague out of the picture". ;; yeah but you make it seem like they want to Proleague not to exist when in fact this is not the cause just a response to KeSPA's refusal to cooperate
They want OGN/MBC to neglect their own league and promote a game they don't want to have anything to do with (and most likely pay Gretech for that on top of that). Why on earth would KeSPA want to cooperate? Just so that they can keep doing what they have been doing for years? Even though Blizzard/Gretech might even not have the legal grounds to demand that?
It's not co-operation. It's blatant abuse.
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On September 08 2010 06:09 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 05:57 Vedic wrote:
KeSPA needs to quit while they're ahead. Losing out here is one thing, but inviting a HUGE lawsuit is another. Activision can afford to rape them in court, so this is just childish. Think again, who have more money. Activision is just a small company, KeSPA Sponsor, SKT alone can take down Activision easily moneywise. Let alone, SKT, KT, STX, Woonjing,etc, are now working together. Every one of these names can squash the shit out of Activision single-handedly.
Thing about Activision is, they are a small piece of a bigger puzzle as well.
If it goes to court money will not be an issue on both sides and it will be us who suffer.
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On September 08 2010 06:18 rackdude wrote:
The bullshit is Gretech being against Teams. They don't want ANY in SC2. The team league is what MADE SCBW and it's what made it possible. It's what got it the money. Gretech is scared of teams because of what they did to their league, so now they are destroying any possibility of there being teams. They think it's a smart move, but it's really just destroying the Esports infrustrucutre and replacing it with the individual.
Look around the world, don't we see those kind of Esports communities around? Are any of them even close to what BW had? The answer is: no. They are destroying what made Korea the center of Esports and replacing it with the shadow of Esports that we see around the rest of the world. Blizzard might think it's ok to have Esports like this, but it can never actually become the culturally accepted mania of SCBW if they do this.
I aglee 100% in this statement. All the main stream sports football in america football again in europe (lol :D) and other less popular but still popular sports like baseball and hockey and basketball are all team sports. Sure theres the odd tennis tournament but im sure those ratings aren't even remotely as good until the end rounds as a colts vs patriot game even in the regular seasons.
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South Africa4316 Posts
Keep this thread on topic starting now. This thread is not about whether SC1 or SC2 is better, and it is not about how much you love/hate KeSPA/Blizzard/Gretech. Also, any personal attacks launched from now on will be dealt with.
On September 08 2010 03:57 mmdmmd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 03:42 Daigomi wrote:
I think it's impossible to pass judgement on what is happening during these negotiations without actually being there. Trying to decide who the wrongdoer is based on snippets of biased information from both sides is ridiculous. It comes down to a business deal which needed to be made, and both parties believing that they did not need to budge.
To all those blaming Gretech for hardballing KeSPA, if I remember correctly Gretech paid a ton to purchase the broadcasting rights from Blizzard. They need to recuperate their costs by bringing in sponsors and broadcasting their tournaments, and KeSPA is making it difficult for them to do so. Furthermore, KeSPA is blatantly ignoring the broadcasting rights that Gretech purchased. With this in mind I don't find Gretech's actions to stop the Proleague to be surprising.
Not only is KeSPA broadcasting the Proleague without paying Gretech for the rights, it is also directly competing with the GSL by broadcasting the Proleague at the same time. Gretech said it was fine if they didn't pay, but they can't not pay and then be the direct competition. KeSPA refused to budge on either request, and Gretech had to take action somehow. I don't think Gretech's action was ever intended to stop the Proleague, it simply stated that KeSPA does not have the broadcasting rights to continue with the Proleague and that it would take legal action should they fail to reach an agreement while continuing to broadcast the Proleague.
What it all comes down to is whether Blizzard holds the broadcasting rights to its own games and is thus able to sell it. As I said earlier, I would tend to think the do, but the legal issue is complex and none us know enough to say who is in the right. If Blizzard does hold the rights, the KeSPA is in the wrong for not doing more to negotiate a deal with Gretech. If Blizzard does not hold the rights then KeSPA was right for standing its ground and Gretech got fucked over by purchasing the rights.
Either way, I don't see how Gretech can be blamed for this. If HBO paid a fortuned to hold the exclusive rights to screen Dexter, you can't blame HBO from trying to stop NBC and ABC from airing Dexter at the exact same time that HBO plans to. You are really contradicting yourself. A. You first said: I think it's impossible to pass judgement on what is happening during these negotiations without actually being there. Trying to decide who the wrongdoer is based on snippets of biased information from both sides is ridiculous. B. Then you said: If I remember correctly Gretech paid a ton to purchase the broadcasting rights from Blizzard.They need to recuperate their costs by bringing in sponsors and broadcasting their tournaments...etc But things in B is exactly what your deem ridiculous in A - since I assume you were not there in the meetings and you based it all on "snippets of biased information" you've gotten from the internet?
I honestly don't see the contradiction. In the first case, we have two warring organisations that disagree with each other and presenting their sides of the argument. In the second case, we have an organisation reporting on a purchase it made, a report which will certainly need to be backed up by financial statements and as such will need to be objective. Even if we disregard this point, I never said that we can't make judgements on anything because we tend to have limited information, I said that we can't make judgements on this specific case because our information is specifically too limited. We don't know what the exact conditions were, we don't know what the implications of these conditions are, and we don't know how they'll affect the related parties. In this specific case, we cannot make a judgement since we just do not know enough.
On September 08 2010 04:34 aru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 03:42 Daigomi wrote:
I think it's impossible to pass judgement on what is happening during these negotiations without actually being there. Trying to decide who the wrongdoer is based on snippets of biased information from both sides is ridiculous. It comes down to a business deal which needed to be made, and both parties believing that they did not need to budge.
[stuff]
EDIT: Also, just to remind everyone, KeSPA itself sold (or tried to sell) the broadcasting rights to SC back in 2006-2007 somewhere. I can't remember exactly what happened though, but it does seem slightly hypocritical for them to try to sell the rights when they believe they own it, before rejecting the existence of such rights now that Blizzard is claiming it. I'm pretty sure you don't know what the Gretech/Blizzard terms were either, so maybe you shouldn't pass judgment on them like you suggest other people do! It wasn't broadcasting rights to "SC". It was broadcasting rights to proleague, the tournament they run. Along with this, because they had all the players, OGN/MBC couldn't run their leagues either due to a boycott. Unsure of what the final terms were, but it was eventually settled when the government stepped in.
Once again, I don't see the contradiction here. I'm not passing judgement on KeSPA for either refusing to deal with Blizzard or not refusing to deal with Blizzard (as long as KeSPA's actions after negotiating with Blizzard were within IP laws), but I am pointing out that KeSPA's position on broadcasting rights regarding SC seems to be hypocritical. This is regardless of any negotiations they had with Blizzard.
Also, your distinction between SC and the Proleague is exactly what the legal battle will hinge on. The matter, as a whole, is quite complex and I really don't know who will win it should it go to court. Either way, I was simply discussing the matter from Gretech's point of view (and they did purchase the broadcast rights of SC), and I did add a disclaimer stating that should the broadcast rights for all of Starcraft not be enforceable, KeSPA would be in the right for standing its ground.
On September 08 2010 04:39 maybenexttime wrote:
Again, they did not refuse to buy the rights. They refused to accept all the other ridiculous terms. In their negotiations with Gretech they actually said they want to reimburse them with money. Gretech didn't actually want money, they wanted ProLeague out of the picture because they doubt GSL will be able to compete.
Firstly, and this pretty much summarizes my position on all of this, the person with the legal power gets to set the conditions of the agreement. Regardless of how "ridiculous" Blizzard's conditions were, if they were in a legal position to make those demands then it would have been KeSPA's responsibility to either accept the demands or disband. I don't remember the demands being that ridiculous, but they did require a reworking of the current system to fit Blizzard in as well. Either way, it comes down to who has the legal position.
Secondly, KeSPA was willing to pay Gretech for the IP rights, but they weren't willing to stop competing with them (ie. broadcast at another time), or compensate them for competing with them (ie. pay more). To use an example from sport, you might sell the broadcast rights to an event you are also covering to a competitors, on the agreement that they do not cover the event live, or you could sell the live broadcast rights to them for a considerably higher price. Since you will lose a significant part of your viewer base by selling those rights, you should either get the prime spot or be demand more money. According to the reports we have here, KeSPA was not willing to give up the extra money or the time slots.
+ Show Spoiler +- Gretech wants Proleague's prime time slots. KeSPA finds this ridiculous.
- Gretech is then wondering how KeSPA will reimburse the GSL, since the Proleague will "compete" with it and damage it. KeSPA responds that they refuse to reimburse damages for the GSL. Gretech asks if it's not monetary, in what other way will KeSPA pay for damages. KeSPA says they're here to talk about the Proleague, not about GSL and Starcraft 2
On September 08 2010 05:42 maybenexttime wrote:
Afaik Gretech wanted OGN (not MBC) to air GSL in primetime AND demanded compensation (money) for broadcasting GSL. If that's the case, then that's insane.
I don't think so, if you look at that quote in the spoiler above.
On September 08 2010 05:52 hydraden wrote:
It is so weird that so many people believed that Blizzard has the legal rights here.
Who told you so, any clause in law specifically? If so, please cite it.
And did Blizzard write this in the agreement when they sell every copy of BW?
And any other precedent on court similar to this situation?
If Gretech wants to pay tons of money for the legal rights which turns out to be nothing.
That's not KeSPA's problem. KeSPA is no charity to clean up Gretech's mess.
I agree with your second paragraph, which is what I've been saying. What I disagree with is your first paragraph. What makes you so sure that Blizzard doesn't have the legal rights? From what I understand, KeSPA would have to prove that the Proleague and Starleagues are all derivative works, and I have no idea how that law works. Either way, before demanding that other people provide evidence, why don't you point out why it's so obvious that Blizzard doesn't have the legal rights here?
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On September 08 2010 06:18 rackdude wrote:
The bullshit is Gretech being against Teams. They don't want ANY in SC2. The team league is what MADE SCBW and it's what made it possible. It's what got it the money. Gretech is scared of teams because of what they did to their league, so now they are destroying any possibility of there being teams. They think it's a smart move, but it's really just destroying the Esports infrustrucutre and replacing it with the individual.
Look around the world, don't we see those kind of Esports communities around? Are any of them even close to what BW had? The answer is: no. They are destroying what made Korea the center of Esports and replacing it with the shadow of Esports that we see around the rest of the world. Blizzard might think it's ok to have Esports like this, but it can never actually become the culturally accepted mania of SCBW if they do this.
Gretech against teams? that is just retarded think about what your saying
you're clearly jumping to the wrong conclusion
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On September 08 2010 06:20 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 06:12 SevenAteNine wrote:On September 08 2010 06:11 maybenexttime wrote:On September 08 2010 06:01 SevenAteNine wrote:On September 08 2010 05:56 mmdmmd wrote:On September 08 2010 05:48 SevenAteNine wrote:On September 08 2010 05:42 maybenexttime wrote:
Afaik Gretech wanted OGN (not MBC) to air GSL in primetime AND demanded compensation (money) for broadcasting GSL. If that's the case, then that's insane.
Does anyone know if that was the case?
SevenAteNine, Gretech did NOT ask for money. When KeSPA asked how much they want, Gretech said that they do not want money but rather ProLeague out of the picture. You are only guessing thats what Gretech wanted when in fact that really was just the end result. Why would you think his opinion is a guess while yours is a fact? i am going by the timeline listed in the OP's post - "Within this process, their demands regarding GSL and moving Proleague's schedule was enough to create a problem" taken directly from the OP, they were only trying to MOVE the schedule but KeSPA didnt want this to happen That's exactly what I meant by "they wanted Proleague out of the picture". ;; yeah but you make it seem like they want to Proleague not to exist when in fact this is not the cause just a response to KeSPA's refusal to cooperate They want OGN/MBC to neglect their own league and promote a game they don't want to have anything to do with (and most likely pay Gretech for that on top of that). Why on earth would KeSPA want to cooperate? Just so that they can keep doing what they have been doing for years? Even though Blizzard/Gretech might even not have the legal grounds to demand that? It's not co-operation. It's blatant abuse.
its not so much a demand or blatant abuse its an exchange, you give me something and i give you something, this is how buisness works. Gretech just wants to promote the GSL and make a successful buisness out of SC2
now heres my personal opinion
Gretech is NOT here to kill BW just get their fair chunk of the E-sports pie but it seems to me KeSPA is greedy and dosnt want to share their success and are willing to kill anything that competes with them. KeSPA clearly does not have the best intrests of e-sports in mind. Gretech is not completely innocent is this regard with wanting to take the proleague time spot but to a much lesser digree then KeSPA
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EPT
