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On September 08 2010 06:20 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 06:12 SevenAteNine wrote:On September 08 2010 06:11 maybenexttime wrote:On September 08 2010 06:01 SevenAteNine wrote:On September 08 2010 05:56 mmdmmd wrote:On September 08 2010 05:48 SevenAteNine wrote:On September 08 2010 05:42 maybenexttime wrote:
Afaik Gretech wanted OGN (not MBC) to air GSL in primetime AND demanded compensation (money) for broadcasting GSL. If that's the case, then that's insane.
Does anyone know if that was the case?
SevenAteNine, Gretech did NOT ask for money. When KeSPA asked how much they want, Gretech said that they do not want money but rather ProLeague out of the picture. You are only guessing thats what Gretech wanted when in fact that really was just the end result. Why would you think his opinion is a guess while yours is a fact? i am going by the timeline listed in the OP's post - "Within this process, their demands regarding GSL and moving Proleague's schedule was enough to create a problem" taken directly from the OP, they were only trying to MOVE the schedule but KeSPA didnt want this to happen That's exactly what I meant by "they wanted Proleague out of the picture". ;; yeah but you make it seem like they want to Proleague not to exist when in fact this is not the cause just a response to KeSPA's refusal to cooperate They want OGN/MBC to neglect their own league and promote a game they don't want to have anything to do with (and most likely pay Gretech for that on top of that). Why on earth would KeSPA want to cooperate? Just so that they can keep doing what they have been doing for years? Even though Blizzard/Gretech might even not have the legal grounds to demand that? It's not co-operation. It's blatant abuse.
You have an extremely biased viewpoint dude. Every single one of your posts in this thread (and in past similar threads) is filled to the brim with emotionally charged words and adjectives, as well as hyperbole and some of your own interpretation of events.
Like someone else posted, the schedule only conflicts on Mondays and Tuesdays, so they could've negotiated a deal around the TV schedule on these 2 days (e.g. Monday BW, Tuesday SC2), but too bad both sides are so stubborn.
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Vedic wrote:
Activision can afford to rape them in court
Your idea of justice leaves me speechless.
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On September 08 2010 06:23 SevenAteNine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 06:18 rackdude wrote:
The bullshit is Gretech being against Teams. They don't want ANY in SC2. The team league is what MADE SCBW and it's what made it possible. It's what got it the money. Gretech is scared of teams because of what they did to their league, so now they are destroying any possibility of there being teams. They think it's a smart move, but it's really just destroying the Esports infrustrucutre and replacing it with the individual.
Look around the world, don't we see those kind of Esports communities around? Are any of them even close to what BW had? The answer is: no. They are destroying what made Korea the center of Esports and replacing it with the shadow of Esports that we see around the rest of the world. Blizzard might think it's ok to have Esports like this, but it can never actually become the culturally accepted mania of SCBW if they do this. Gretech against teams? that is just retarded think about what your saying you're clearly jumping to the wrong conclusion
Have you read what they want with SC2? They have already declared they do not want a team league in SC2. They are trying to undermine the team contracts right now. Now they are trying to shut down pro league. Did I derive a reasonable conclusion to suggest that they may be against the idea of programming teams? I think so. And they have a reason for it too: it was through the programming teams that Kespa destroyed the GOM TV tournament. Also, the teams are what gives Kespa power. The teams are the only thing that GOM doesn't control.
Are you trying to tell me this doesn't all add up? Just take a sec to think about it and maybe read some more.
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On September 08 2010 06:35 olof wrote:Your idea of justice leaves me speechless.
I wouldn't want Activision anywhere near the E-Sports gaming scene. The moment the industry is deemed to be "unprofitable," they'll wash their hands clean of it.
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On September 07 2010 13:18 29 fps wrote:
it doesnt look good for kespa.... as much as i like proleague, i think if theres a lawsuit, gretech/blizzard will win because it's blizzard's game.
Why?
As much as the game itself is without any doubt Blizzard's intellectual property, the broadcasting rights of an event created around the game is a completely different matter.
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On September 08 2010 06:53 RHoudini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 13:18 29 fps wrote:
it doesnt look good for kespa.... as much as i like proleague, i think if theres a lawsuit, gretech/blizzard will win because it's blizzard's game. Why? As much as the game itself is without any doubt Blizzard's intellectual property, the broadcasting rights of an event created around the game is a completely different matter.
Exactly this. When you make a software synthesizer and someone makes a song with it, you don't own the song. Same idea: you write a software, they make something from it, and you don't own what they made from it. It would be ridiculous if everything made from a software was owned by the software maker. The whole SCBW scene is not the software itself, but it's a product made from the software, and thus it's not owned by the software maker. That's how I see it.
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Okay, so I read through most of this and heard a lot of blizzard is a greedy money hungry corporation who uses gretech as a proxy to destroy kespa who is seens as a competition to sc2 and ultimately its bottom line.
Yet, I haven't read any good argument as to exactly why would blizzard really give a rat ass about bw and let kespa operate the way it wanted to without anyreal compensation to blizzard itself. So I am asking everyone who scream boycott and how blizzard to burn for eternity in the dept of hell and answer me that if you were in blizzard position, why would you want to let someone else screw you over with your own product if you can do something about it?
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On September 08 2010 07:05 Yamoth wrote:
Okay, so I read through most of this and heard a lot of blizzard is a greedy money hungry corporation who uses gretech as a proxy to destroy kespa who is seens as a competition to sc2 and ultimately its bottom line.
Yet, I haven't read any good argument as to exactly why would blizzard really give a rat ass about bw and let kespa operate the way it wanted to without anyreal compensation to blizzard itself. So I am asking everyone who scream boycott and how blizzard to burn for eternity in the dept of hell and answer me that if you were in blizzard position, why would you want to let someone else screw you over with your own product if you can do something about it?
How is Blizzard being screwed over? What game from 1998 has as much advertisement as SCBW? Blizzard has only gained from Kespa, now they want to gain more.
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On September 08 2010 06:49 rackdude wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 06:23 SevenAteNine wrote:On September 08 2010 06:18 rackdude wrote:
The bullshit is Gretech being against Teams. They don't want ANY in SC2. The team league is what MADE SCBW and it's what made it possible. It's what got it the money. Gretech is scared of teams because of what they did to their league, so now they are destroying any possibility of there being teams. They think it's a smart move, but it's really just destroying the Esports infrustrucutre and replacing it with the individual.
Look around the world, don't we see those kind of Esports communities around? Are any of them even close to what BW had? The answer is: no. They are destroying what made Korea the center of Esports and replacing it with the shadow of Esports that we see around the rest of the world. Blizzard might think it's ok to have Esports like this, but it can never actually become the culturally accepted mania of SCBW if they do this. Gretech against teams? that is just retarded think about what your saying you're clearly jumping to the wrong conclusion Have you read what they want with SC2? They have already declared they do not want a team league in SC2. They are trying to undermine the team contracts right now. Now they are trying to shut down pro league. Did I derive a reasonable conclusion to suggest that they may be against the idea of programming teams? I think so. And they have a reason for it too: it was through the programming teams that Kespa destroyed the GOM TV tournament. Also, the teams are what gives Kespa power. The teams are the only thing that GOM doesn't control. Are you trying to tell me this doesn't all add up? Just take a sec to think about it and maybe read some more.
hmm, i guess this could be true i did miss where Gretech said they were against team leagues in sc2. if this is true its rather silly because teams do= quality players that the team environment produce. but clearly if this KeSPA issue is proof their is good reason for this.
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On September 08 2010 07:05 Yamoth wrote:
Okay, so I read through most of this and heard a lot of blizzard is a greedy money hungry corporation who uses gretech as a proxy to destroy kespa who is seens as a competition to sc2 and ultimately its bottom line.
Yet, I haven't read any good argument as to exactly why would blizzard really give a rat ass about bw and let kespa operate the way it wanted to without anyreal compensation to blizzard itself. So I am asking everyone who scream boycott and how blizzard to burn for eternity in the dept of hell and answer me that if you were in blizzard position, why would you want to let someone else screw you over with your own product if you can do something about it?
You are still assuming that Blizzard has the legal rights here.
KeSPA definitely think differently.
That's worth arguing even in court for several years.
And Blizzard being screwed over? Are you kidding me?
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Obviously Kespa are morons. Even the koreans themselves know this. Blizzard never wanted to shut down proleague, they wanted kespa to acknowledge that it was their intellectual property. When it comes to SCBW the money is really just symbolic, however blizzard did want to make money on SC2 esports.
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On September 08 2010 07:00 rackdude wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 06:53 RHoudini wrote:On September 07 2010 13:18 29 fps wrote:
it doesnt look good for kespa.... as much as i like proleague, i think if theres a lawsuit, gretech/blizzard will win because it's blizzard's game. Why? As much as the game itself is without any doubt Blizzard's intellectual property, the broadcasting rights of an event created around the game is a completely different matter. Exactly this. When you make a software synthesizer and someone makes a song with it, you don't own the song. Same idea: you write a software, they make something from it, and you don't own what they made from it. It would be ridiculous if everything made from a software was owned by the software maker. The whole SCBW scene is not the software itself, but it's a product made from the software, and thus it's not owned by the software maker. That's how I see it.
honestly there were plenty of threads made arround compairing SCBW to some product that was made to produce things that people sell
go discuss it there not here
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On September 08 2010 07:00 rackdude wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 06:53 RHoudini wrote:On September 07 2010 13:18 29 fps wrote:
it doesnt look good for kespa.... as much as i like proleague, i think if theres a lawsuit, gretech/blizzard will win because it's blizzard's game. Why? As much as the game itself is without any doubt Blizzard's intellectual property, the broadcasting rights of an event created around the game is a completely different matter. Exactly this. When you make a software synthesizer and someone makes a song with it, you don't own the song. Same idea: you write a software, they make something from it, and you don't own what they made from it. It would be ridiculous if everything made from a software was owned by the software maker. The whole SCBW scene is not the software itself, but it's a product made from the software, and thus it's not owned by the software maker. That's how I see it.
I can give the same argument in blizzard favor. Imagine you put a great amount of time and effort to write a beautiful song and proceed to sell the record. Then someone else come along buy a single record of your, change the beat and lyric a bit and proceed to go an a tour and makes money with it. When you ask them for compensation for using your music, they refuse to do so cause they ripping off your song for a while now without you saying anything about it so it is okay for them to continue to ripped out your song. Furthermore, they are arguing that since they are not a for profit company, that gives them even more rights to ripped off your music. When you tell them that more or less, the song that they used is your so you should at least have a saying on who can sing it, they throw a hissy fit and scream that you want to control them. Getting tired of all the bullshit you sign with another record company, giving them all the rights to your song, and have them deal with all the poo throwing monkies on your behalf and get you the well deserved royalty that you are entitled to.
See what I did there?
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On September 08 2010 07:08 rackdude wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 07:05 Yamoth wrote:
Okay, so I read through most of this and heard a lot of blizzard is a greedy money hungry corporation who uses gretech as a proxy to destroy kespa who is seens as a competition to sc2 and ultimately its bottom line.
Yet, I haven't read any good argument as to exactly why would blizzard really give a rat ass about bw and let kespa operate the way it wanted to without anyreal compensation to blizzard itself. So I am asking everyone who scream boycott and how blizzard to burn for eternity in the dept of hell and answer me that if you were in blizzard position, why would you want to let someone else screw you over with your own product if you can do something about it? How is Blizzard being screwed over? What game from 1998 has as much advertisement as SCBW? Blizzard has only gained from Kespa, now they want to gain more.
That still doesn't change the fact that the current BW scene will be competing with SC2. No matter how much attention I acquire for the band I love, when I start giving out free concert in the same city at their planned tour singing their song. How much do you want to bet they are still going to sue me for it?
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On September 08 2010 07:21 Yamoth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 07:00 rackdude wrote:On September 08 2010 06:53 RHoudini wrote:On September 07 2010 13:18 29 fps wrote:
it doesnt look good for kespa.... as much as i like proleague, i think if theres a lawsuit, gretech/blizzard will win because it's blizzard's game. Why? As much as the game itself is without any doubt Blizzard's intellectual property, the broadcasting rights of an event created around the game is a completely different matter. Exactly this. When you make a software synthesizer and someone makes a song with it, you don't own the song. Same idea: you write a software, they make something from it, and you don't own what they made from it. It would be ridiculous if everything made from a software was owned by the software maker. The whole SCBW scene is not the software itself, but it's a product made from the software, and thus it's not owned by the software maker. That's how I see it. I can give the same argument in blizzard favor. Imagine you put a great amount of time and effort to write a beautiful song and proceed to sell the record. Then someone else come along buy a single record of your, change the beat and lyric a bit and proceed to go an a tour and makes money with it. When you ask them for compensation for using your music, they refuse to do so cause they ripping off your song for a while now without you saying anything about it so it is okay for them to continue to ripped out your song. Furthermore, they are arguing that since they are not a for profit company, that gives them even more rights to ripped off your music. When you tell them that more or less, the song that they used is your so you should at least have a saying on who can sing it, they throw a hissy fit and scream that you want to control them. Getting tired of all the bullshit you sign with another record company, giving them all the rights to your song, and have them deal with all the poo throwing monkies on your behalf and get you the well deserved royalty that you are entitled to. See what I did there?
Your analogy is flawed when you said "change the beat and lyrics", you leave out important details on how you have been quietly reaping in all the cash from your song sales because someone else promoted it for you.
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On September 08 2010 07:32 zenMaster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 07:21 Yamoth wrote:On September 08 2010 07:00 rackdude wrote:On September 08 2010 06:53 RHoudini wrote:On September 07 2010 13:18 29 fps wrote:
it doesnt look good for kespa.... as much as i like proleague, i think if theres a lawsuit, gretech/blizzard will win because it's blizzard's game. Why? As much as the game itself is without any doubt Blizzard's intellectual property, the broadcasting rights of an event created around the game is a completely different matter. Exactly this. When you make a software synthesizer and someone makes a song with it, you don't own the song. Same idea: you write a software, they make something from it, and you don't own what they made from it. It would be ridiculous if everything made from a software was owned by the software maker. The whole SCBW scene is not the software itself, but it's a product made from the software, and thus it's not owned by the software maker. That's how I see it. I can give the same argument in blizzard favor. Imagine you put a great amount of time and effort to write a beautiful song and proceed to sell the record. Then someone else come along buy a single record of your, change the beat and lyric a bit and proceed to go an a tour and makes money with it. When you ask them for compensation for using your music, they refuse to do so cause they ripping off your song for a while now without you saying anything about it so it is okay for them to continue to ripped out your song. Furthermore, they are arguing that since they are not a for profit company, that gives them even more rights to ripped off your music. When you tell them that more or less, the song that they used is your so you should at least have a saying on who can sing it, they throw a hissy fit and scream that you want to control them. Getting tired of all the bullshit you sign with another record company, giving them all the rights to your song, and have them deal with all the poo throwing monkies on your behalf and get you the well deserved royalty that you are entitled to. See what I did there? Your analogy is flawed when you said "change the beat and lyrics", you leave out important details on how you have been quietly reaping in all the cash from your song sales because someone else promoted it for you.
See my other quote after that reply.
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On September 08 2010 06:35 olof wrote:Your idea of justice leaves me speechless.
What does justice have to do with this? Standing up against a company that you WILL lose to isn't brave, it's stupid. Instead of acting like a single season without proleague would be the end of the world, they should be looking for ways to make their business work. Instead, they're just running face first into the wall and saying "screw it, let's go to court!" - something that can ONLY be bad for us. When they end up bankrupt because they failed in court, you won't have any chance of any proleague unless Gom steps up.
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On September 08 2010 07:21 Yamoth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 07:00 rackdude wrote:On September 08 2010 06:53 RHoudini wrote:On September 07 2010 13:18 29 fps wrote:
it doesnt look good for kespa.... as much as i like proleague, i think if theres a lawsuit, gretech/blizzard will win because it's blizzard's game. Why? As much as the game itself is without any doubt Blizzard's intellectual property, the broadcasting rights of an event created around the game is a completely different matter. Exactly this. When you make a software synthesizer and someone makes a song with it, you don't own the song. Same idea: you write a software, they make something from it, and you don't own what they made from it. It would be ridiculous if everything made from a software was owned by the software maker. The whole SCBW scene is not the software itself, but it's a product made from the software, and thus it's not owned by the software maker. That's how I see it. I can give the same argument in blizzard favor. Imagine you put a great amount of time and effort to write a beautiful song and proceed to sell the record. Then someone else come along buy a single record of your, change the beat and lyric a bit and proceed to go an a tour and makes money with it. When you ask them for compensation for using your music, they refuse to do so cause they ripping off your song for a while now without you saying anything about it so it is okay for them to continue to ripped out your song. Furthermore, they are arguing that since they are not a for profit company, that gives them even more rights to ripped off your music. When you tell them that more or less, the song that they used is your so you should at least have a saying on who can sing it, they throw a hissy fit and scream that you want to control them. Getting tired of all the bullshit you sign with another record company, giving them all the rights to your song, and have them deal with all the poo throwing monkies on your behalf and get you the well deserved royalty that you are entitled to. See what I did there?
Yes, I see what you did there. You made an analogy that was refuted by cases before. I think the case about digital antiskips was the one that established that digital files are are different from the SR (which includes the performance), and thus different rules apply. An SR includes the PA, and thus all performances and derivatives in things like musical arrangement, lyrics, etc (all covered in more depth by other court cases). In your case, what law would cover it would be SR law. That is completely different than IP law. However, if I'm not mistaken, a software synthesizer would be covered by the same IP law as a software computer game.
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On September 08 2010 07:05 Yamoth wrote:
That still doesn't change the fact that the current BW scene will be competing with SC2. No matter how much attention I acquire for the band I love, when I start giving out free concert in the same city at their planned tour singing their song. How much do you want to bet they are still going to sue me for it?
Ever heard of a cover band? Haha.
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On September 08 2010 07:37 rackdude wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 07:21 Yamoth wrote:On September 08 2010 07:00 rackdude wrote:On September 08 2010 06:53 RHoudini wrote:On September 07 2010 13:18 29 fps wrote:
it doesnt look good for kespa.... as much as i like proleague, i think if theres a lawsuit, gretech/blizzard will win because it's blizzard's game. Why? As much as the game itself is without any doubt Blizzard's intellectual property, the broadcasting rights of an event created around the game is a completely different matter. Exactly this. When you make a software synthesizer and someone makes a song with it, you don't own the song. Same idea: you write a software, they make something from it, and you don't own what they made from it. It would be ridiculous if everything made from a software was owned by the software maker. The whole SCBW scene is not the software itself, but it's a product made from the software, and thus it's not owned by the software maker. That's how I see it. I can give the same argument in blizzard favor. Imagine you put a great amount of time and effort to write a beautiful song and proceed to sell the record. Then someone else come along buy a single record of your, change the beat and lyric a bit and proceed to go an a tour and makes money with it. When you ask them for compensation for using your music, they refuse to do so cause they ripping off your song for a while now without you saying anything about it so it is okay for them to continue to ripped out your song. Furthermore, they are arguing that since they are not a for profit company, that gives them even more rights to ripped off your music. When you tell them that more or less, the song that they used is your so you should at least have a saying on who can sing it, they throw a hissy fit and scream that you want to control them. Getting tired of all the bullshit you sign with another record company, giving them all the rights to your song, and have them deal with all the poo throwing monkies on your behalf and get you the well deserved royalty that you are entitled to. See what I did there? Yes, I see what you did there. You made an analogy that was refuted by cases before. I think the case about digital antiskips was the one that established that digital files are are different from the SR (which includes the performance), and thus different rules apply. An SR includes the PA, and thus all performances and derivatives in things like musical arrangement, lyrics, etc (all covered in more depth by other court cases). In your case, what law would cover it would be SR law. That is completely different than IP law. However, if I'm not mistaken, a software synthesizer would be covered by the same IP law as a software computer game.
your analogy in inherently flawed as SCBW is both art and a device that could be used to create art.
SCBW was basicly made on software like that you were speaking about
its clear to me Blizzard is 100% more legitimate in this respect and thus would clearly win in any reasonable court of law
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EPT
