On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
I am too. It was nearly over, but it wasn't over, and it compromised game 4 as well. The impossibility of a comeback was seriously exaggerated afterward.
I think that MSL is forever tainted, and I don't take it very seriously.
On August 22 2010 05:46 SimonB wrote: The ling rushes are very difficult to deal with. I think Flash should play as if it were a PvZ and basically always have a scout near JD's base for this type of thing. If need be, send several SCVs out. If he can avoid Light's game 1 and 5 fate, he pretty much should own.
On August 22 2010 01:41 DarkMatter_ wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:37 SubtleArt wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
Flash wasn't better, he was just more prepared? What?
How do you figure that, especially considering JD had a few more days to prepare because Flash was working overtime before the OSL finals.
Preparing against Movie?? The scourge of all terrans?? Please!!
I wasn't talking about Nate there, I was talking about Hana Daetoo.
Also, Movie came prepared for that finals with some pretty abusive builds, so it's dumb to dismiss it anyway.
On August 22 2010 01:36 SubtleArt wrote: Lol Jaedong practiced with Bee and Sexy while Flash practiced with Effort and Zero. No wonder Jaedong got 3-0ed last finals
Mad respect to JD for actually winning that one, I was expecting an easy win for Light. Indeed his experience helped him a lot. After Bisu back in 2007, finally we have 2 guys that made it into 3 MSL finals in a row and while I think Flash has a lot left in the tank, imo this is like the last hurrah for Jaedong
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Same here. As they say, it's not over till it is over. 'nuff said.
Oh Jaedong, you have a weakness against terrans in the grandfinals of the MSL on questionable maps. Even if the map pool was better I'd give a strong advantage to flash. I expect flash to win this 3-1.
Thanks Kona for translations, its been a long time : ) Imo, set 2 of the series vs Light was the best. Battlecruisers and his Bio control was so Flash-esk (coming from a jd fanboy)
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Same here. As they say, it's not over till it is over. 'nuff said.
I'm sure u know more than 3 KESPA refs who do this for a living. Makes sense.
- Jaedong was on four gas and had a fifth gas building - Flash was fast approaching depletion in both his nat and main geysers, and the expansion he had just taken had no geyser - Flash was about to mine out his natural. Jaedong had more mineral patches than his drones could handle - All of Jaedong's expansions were secure - Flash had ZERO tanks. He did not even have a machine shop. No Flash vs Calm Game 3 this time around.
Also to moopie, I like Flash a lot, I'm just not in denial. Don't know why any1 who thinks jaedong had the game won is automatically an anti fan.
On August 22 2010 09:28 SimonB wrote: I am too. It was nearly over, but it wasn't over, and it compromised game 4 as well. The impossibility of a comeback was seriously exaggerated afterward.
I think that MSL is forever tainted, and I don't take it very seriously.
On August 22 2010 05:46 SimonB wrote: The ling rushes are very difficult to deal with. I think Flash should play as if it were a PvZ and basically always have a scout near JD's base for this type of thing. If need be, send several SCVs out. If he can avoid Light's game 1 and 5 fate, he pretty much should own.
On August 22 2010 01:41 DarkMatter_ wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:37 SubtleArt wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
Flash wasn't better, he was just more prepared? What?
How do you figure that, especially considering JD had a few more days to prepare because Flash was working overtime before the OSL finals.
Preparing against Movie?? The scourge of all terrans?? Please!!
I wasn't talking about Nate there, I was talking about Hana Daetoo.
Also, Movie came prepared for that finals with some pretty abusive builds, so it's dumb to dismiss it anyway.
What abusive builds? The only thing he prepared well for was that carrier transition on eye of the storm. Other than that he went reaver on a map that almost every protoss ever went reaver on, 12 nex on a massive map, and then HBR, which he really didn't have a plan for past the early game.
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
If it was more to JD's favor than to being even (JD more than 75% favored) the call was correct, didn't even need to be completely over. That's been talked over like half a year ago, though.
About these finals, well Flash will probably grind them out to victory. It's pretty funny how people complain about SC2 TvZ the whole time, whereas in SCBW the balance is actually even worse at the moment but people just don't mind because they've decided that the game has perfect balance.
On August 22 2010 09:28 SimonB wrote: I am too. It was nearly over, but it wasn't over, and it compromised game 4 as well. The impossibility of a comeback was seriously exaggerated afterward.
I think that MSL is forever tainted, and I don't take it very seriously.
On August 22 2010 08:47 WWJDD wrote:
On August 22 2010 05:46 SimonB wrote: The ling rushes are very difficult to deal with. I think Flash should play as if it were a PvZ and basically always have a scout near JD's base for this type of thing. If need be, send several SCVs out. If he can avoid Light's game 1 and 5 fate, he pretty much should own.
On August 22 2010 01:41 DarkMatter_ wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:37 SubtleArt wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
Flash wasn't better, he was just more prepared? What?
How do you figure that, especially considering JD had a few more days to prepare because Flash was working overtime before the OSL finals.
Preparing against Movie?? The scourge of all terrans?? Please!!
I wasn't talking about Nate there, I was talking about Hana Daetoo.
Also, Movie came prepared for that finals with some pretty abusive builds, so it's dumb to dismiss it anyway.
What abusive builds? The only thing he prepared well for was that carrier transition on eye of the storm. Other than that he went reaver on a map that almost every protoss ever went reaver on, 12 nex on a massive map, and then HBR, which he really didn't have a plan for past the early game.
The combined goon/zealot elevator + reaver drop + DT drop on El Nino (which Flash *barely* held off) was pretty damn abusive.
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Same here. As they say, it's not over till it is over. 'nuff said.
I'm sure u know more than 3 KESPA refs who do this for a living. Makes sense.
- Jaedong was on four gas and had a fifth gas building - Flash was fast approaching depletion in both his nat and main geysers, and the expansion he had just taken had no geyser - Flash was about to mine out his natural. Jaedong had more mineral patches than his drones could handle - All of Jaedong's expansions were secure - Flash had ZERO tanks. He did not even have a machine shop. No Flash vs Calm Game 3 this time around.
Also to moopie, I like Flash a lot, I'm just not in denial. Don't know why any1 who thinks jaedong had the game won is automatically an anti fan.
whilst I will sate that I don't like Flash a lot, I still trust my SC analytical skills enough to see beyond that and say that I agree with motbob and subtleArt, it was over, not because I don't like Flash but because it WAS over
IdrA and Ret both said the game was won for Jaedong
not trying to doubt Flash's BW knowledge but then again, Flash is absolutely unbiased toward himself am I right :p
never thought I'd still be arguing this point 6 months later
man... i really hope we get some epic games like their first MSL finals encounter. Those first three games were pretty epic, and game 3 was so damn exciting even with the space heater incident
On August 22 2010 09:28 SimonB wrote: I am too. It was nearly over, but it wasn't over, and it compromised game 4 as well. The impossibility of a comeback was seriously exaggerated afterward.
I think that MSL is forever tainted, and I don't take it very seriously.
On August 22 2010 08:47 WWJDD wrote:
On August 22 2010 05:46 SimonB wrote: The ling rushes are very difficult to deal with. I think Flash should play as if it were a PvZ and basically always have a scout near JD's base for this type of thing. If need be, send several SCVs out. If he can avoid Light's game 1 and 5 fate, he pretty much should own.
On August 22 2010 01:41 DarkMatter_ wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:37 SubtleArt wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
Flash wasn't better, he was just more prepared? What?
How do you figure that, especially considering JD had a few more days to prepare because Flash was working overtime before the OSL finals.
Preparing against Movie?? The scourge of all terrans?? Please!!
I wasn't talking about Nate there, I was talking about Hana Daetoo.
Also, Movie came prepared for that finals with some pretty abusive builds, so it's dumb to dismiss it anyway.
What abusive builds? The only thing he prepared well for was that carrier transition on eye of the storm. Other than that he went reaver on a map that almost every protoss ever went reaver on, 12 nex on a massive map, and then HBR, which he really didn't have a plan for past the early game.
The combined goon/zealot elevator + reaver drop + DT drop on El Nino (which Flash *barely* held off) was pretty damn abusive.
I believe Movie had prepared for a fast dark templar drop, but messed up his build orders half way throught the game, and had to re-adjust his build to make up for the delayed timing. The combination of reavers and dark templars did threaten Flash, but Movie had invested so much on the drop that Flash had to be crippled severely for the move to have paid off. Hardly a shining example of how well prepared Movie was for the series to be honest.
What Flash has achieved this season is so out of this world, I don't see the point of obsessing over the minimal likelihood that Flash would have overcame the deficit he had against Jaedong in that infamous game on Odd-Eye, and overcome what was a clear build order loss on Fighting Spirit afterwards. Or trying to prove that somehow that what Flash faced against Movie was some of the most mind tilting protoss plays around.
Flash has surpasses Jaedong in terms of straight up play for quite some time now. Jaedong had to rely on his wits, to overcome Flash on what many zergs progamers said to be an impossible map pool for a zerg player. The ruling in the third game just sealed the lid on what was in many people's eyes, a done deal. Flash returned the favour to stomp Jaedong to the ground last time.
This time round, the map pool is still favourable for the terran race, and Jaedong was forced to reveal a lot of his non-straight up plays against Sea and Light, since he didn't have the capacity to roll them over on sheer power alone. This is Flash's series to lose. To be honest, I'd like to see Flash play Jaedong on some zerg favoured map pool, something that never happened in any of their BO5s. It's no fun watching Jaedong trying to out-guess Flash in these map pools.
I practiced with my team players as well as personal practice partners such as (T)Bee and (T)Sexy, and it is because of their help that I managed to take down strong Terran players and advance this far. I am playing a Terran once again in the finals (laughs), and because of me, they are suffering quite a bit, but I promise to treat them to good food every day next week, so I hope they will continue helping me.
Anyone else think it would be extremely depressing if your sole role as a practice partner was to get repeatedly demolished by Jaedong?
On August 22 2010 09:28 SimonB wrote: I am too. It was nearly over, but it wasn't over, and it compromised game 4 as well. The impossibility of a comeback was seriously exaggerated afterward.
I think that MSL is forever tainted, and I don't take it very seriously.
On August 22 2010 08:47 WWJDD wrote:
On August 22 2010 05:46 SimonB wrote: The ling rushes are very difficult to deal with. I think Flash should play as if it were a PvZ and basically always have a scout near JD's base for this type of thing. If need be, send several SCVs out. If he can avoid Light's game 1 and 5 fate, he pretty much should own.
On August 22 2010 01:41 DarkMatter_ wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:37 SubtleArt wrote:
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
Flash wasn't better, he was just more prepared? What?
How do you figure that, especially considering JD had a few more days to prepare because Flash was working overtime before the OSL finals.
Preparing against Movie?? The scourge of all terrans?? Please!!
I wasn't talking about Nate there, I was talking about Hana Daetoo.
Also, Movie came prepared for that finals with some pretty abusive builds, so it's dumb to dismiss it anyway.
What abusive builds? The only thing he prepared well for was that carrier transition on eye of the storm. Other than that he went reaver on a map that almost every protoss ever went reaver on, 12 nex on a massive map, and then HBR, which he really didn't have a plan for past the early game.
The combined goon/zealot elevator + reaver drop + DT drop on El Nino (which Flash *barely* held off) was pretty damn abusive.
I believe Movie had prepared for a fast dark templar drop, but messed up his build orders half way throught the game, and had to re-adjust his build to make up for the delayed timing. The combination of reavers and dark templars did threaten Flash, but Movie had invested so much on the drop that Flash had to be crippled severely for the move to have paid off. Hardly a shining example of how well prepared Movie was for the series to be honest.
What Flash has achieved this season is so out of this world, I don't see the point of obsessing over the minimal likelihood that Flash would have overcame the deficit he had against Jaedong in that infamous game on Odd-Eye, and overcome what was a clear build order loss on Fighting Spirit afterwards. Or trying to prove that somehow that what Flash faced against Movie was some of the most mind tilting protoss plays around.
Flash has surpasses Jaedong in terms of straight up play for quite some time now. Jaedong had to rely on his wits, to overcome Flash on what many zergs progamers said to be an impossible map pool for a zerg player. The ruling in the third game just sealed the lid on what was in many people's eyes, a done deal. Flash returned the favour to stomp Jaedong to the ground last time.
This time round, the map pool is still favourable for the terran race, and Jaedong was forced to reveal a lot of his non-straight up plays against Sea and Light, since he didn't have the capacity to roll them over on sheer power alone. This is Flash's series to lose. To be honest, I'd like to see Flash play Jaedong on some zerg favoured map pool, something that never happened in any of their BO5s. It's no fun watching Jaedong trying to out-guess Flash in these map pools.
When was the last time they even played a proper standard game? It was the winner's league game on match point. As I recall, that game was pretty evenly balanced until Jaedong's big fuckup with forgetting consume. While it might be true that Flash has a higher chance of winning in a standard macro game, I haven't seen any strong evidence to support this claim. We can only judge based on their general performance against other players.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Same here. As they say, it's not over till it is over. 'nuff said.
I'm sure u know more than 3 KESPA refs who do this for a living. Makes sense.
- Jaedong was on four gas and had a fifth gas building - Flash was fast approaching depletion in both his nat and main geysers, and the expansion he had just taken had no geyser - Flash was about to mine out his natural. Jaedong had more mineral patches than his drones could handle - All of Jaedong's expansions were secure - Flash had ZERO tanks. He did not even have a machine shop. No Flash vs Calm Game 3 this time around.
Also to moopie, I like Flash a lot, I'm just not in denial. Don't know why any1 who thinks jaedong had the game won is automatically an anti fan.
whilst I will sate that I don't like Flash a lot, I still trust my SC analytical skills enough to see beyond that and say that I agree with motbob and subtleArt, it was over, not because I don't like Flash but because it WAS over
IdrA and Ret both said the game was won for Jaedong
not trying to doubt Flash's BW knowledge but then again, Flash is absolutely unbiased toward himself am I right :p
never thought I'd still be arguing this point 6 months later
Exactly, almost all top players agree that it was over, as well as 3 refs who have made the game their living, but no, random teamliquid poster knows better, and any1 who doesn't agree must hate flash.
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Yes, Flash...Lee Young Ho....the very person who was playing said game. Absolutely no bias there whatsoever
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
If it was more to JD's favor than to being even (JD more than 75% favored) the call was correct, didn't even need to be completely over. That's been talked over like half a year ago, though.
About these finals, well Flash will probably grind them out to victory. It's pretty funny how people complain about SC2 TvZ the whole time, whereas in SCBW the balance is actually even worse at the moment but people just don't mind because they've decided that the game has perfect balance.
The balance historically is 53%, so no its not as awful as TvZ in Sc2. On top of that Terran in general is strong right now, they're using a new strategy that Zergs are confused by, and the map pool is bad. Don't base your entire judgment of an 11 year old game off a knee jerk reaction u got watching it for barely a few weeks. In 2008 - 2009, which we ccalled swarm season, Zerg was by far the most dominant race, and we ended up getting a plethora of ZvZ finals and semifinals, many with only above average players riding the strength of their race (Calm vs Kwanro finals any1??)
On August 22 2010 01:35 DarkMatter_ wrote: This doesn't sound like the Jaedong I know. I guess today's losses shook him up a bit, since it sounds like none of the games turned out the way he expected them to (even the wins). He sounds almost intimidated by Flash. When you overhype the opponent so much, you're always putting yourself a disadvantage psychologically. Hopefully, he regains his confidence before the finals and returns to his usual self.
Also, Jaedong really needs better practice partners. He's always going to be a disadvantage if he keeps practicing with the likes of Bee and Sexy while Flash gets help/practice from the likes of Effort and ZerO.
The curbstomping last finals might have something to do with it. On top of that only 2 games today went to lategame, and jaedong lost both of them. You know Flash is gonna bring an even better endgame and not be stupid enough to lose early like light did
I really don't think there's any reason to feel too demoralized by the last MSL. In the end, Flash won simply because he was better prepared and read Jaedong perfectly. As far as skill goes, the last MSL really didn't prove much.
If an opponent can read you perfectly, how on earth is that not a great indicator of skill? If someone is mechanically superior to you, you at least know how to try and overcome that. But if you get repeatedly mindfucked by someone, it can be harder to figure out the answer to that.
Jaedong was predictable that day. Flash was predictable in the NATE MSL. Does it prove that the winner was the better player that day? Yes. Does it prove that he's a better player overall? No.
Dont even talk about Power Outage MSL... And your argument makes no sense. Progamers have constantly said the distance between each of them is paper thin, and when you have two of the best clash, you expect it to go 50/50. Saying it doesn't prove anything except "preparation" is completely ignoring the fact that it is all based on preparation. Half of the "skills" you talk about is preparation. Flash's breakout OSL 3-0 vs Stork was a perfect example of preparation, and it showed just how much skills Flash had. A Bo5 is a lot different than your regular Proleague or group stages match.
Why not? Are you one of the clueless people that think game 3 wasn't completely over??
I am. And so is Flash, and I'd trust his bw knowledge over any person on TL (including rabid antifans like yourself), he's come back from much worse.
Same here. As they say, it's not over till it is over. 'nuff said.
I'm sure u know more than 3 KESPA refs who do this for a living. Makes sense.
- Jaedong was on four gas and had a fifth gas building - Flash was fast approaching depletion in both his nat and main geysers, and the expansion he had just taken had no geyser - Flash was about to mine out his natural. Jaedong had more mineral patches than his drones could handle - All of Jaedong's expansions were secure - Flash had ZERO tanks. He did not even have a machine shop. No Flash vs Calm Game 3 this time around.
Also to moopie, I like Flash a lot, I'm just not in denial. Don't know why any1 who thinks jaedong had the game won is automatically an anti fan.
I'd like to see the iccup rank of all the blind fanbois that say Flash was still in that game.
You'd see a bunch of D ranked fools.
No matter how much facts and evidence presented, all they have is:
EPT
