At the final trial regarding the progamer match fixing scandal, the prosecutor requested harsh prison sentences for the accused during their final statements:
Broker, Mr. Park: 2 years Progamer, Mr. Won (Justin): 2 years, 3,000,000 won in additional fines Progamer, Mr. Ma (Savior): 18 months Soccer player, Mr. Jung: 18 months Bank worker, Mr. Park: 1 year Ex-progamer, Mr. Jung (who?): 1 year Ex-progamer, Mr. Choi (who?): 1 year Mr. Lee: 1 year
The prosecutors claimed "We regret that the accused did not understand their responsibility as public figures when they participated in match-fixing through e-sports. For this, we conclude that they must serve out the appropriate sentences."
During their final statements, Savior claimed he was half-forced into the match fixing, and expressed his regrets while apologizing to fans of e-sports. He stated his plans to continue his education by going to college in the future.
Justin emphasized that he was coerced into the match fixing, and expressed his regret as well. He has applied for the marines, and awaits military service.
Wow this is big than for map hacking no seriously Savior going to jail ? crazy, banned from esport, full disgrace from people for life and big debt from justice is enough i think.
On August 20 2010 22:58 JWD wrote: 18 months jail time? For illegal betting? Wow Koreans have different notions of justice than Americans. That seems impossibly harsh to me.
Illegal betting problem is huge in Korea, so the prosecutors tend to suggest harsh sentences.
On August 20 2010 22:49 Rodiel wrote: Wow this is big than for map hacking no seriously Savior going to jail ? crazy, banned from esport, full disgrace from people for life and big debt from justice is enough i think.
this
On August 20 2010 18:53 DoctorHelvetica wrote: This feels really harsh to me. I was never that upset about the match-fixing. Disappointed, but I would never dream of jail time for it.
Savior was half forced by who? I don't know why, but I really wasn't expecting any jail time. I just thought it would have been a hefty fine and that would be that. I guess I have to look pass just the Starcraft factor, they were doing something illegal so...
These guys are still kids despite their age, actually more like teenagers. imo 2 years is too harsh, it's bad enough they were banned from pro-gaming for life. A year or 8 months is long enough.
Maybe half forced by low pay in some cases, and the fact that being a progamer in Korea seems to, maybe not destroy, but hinder future ways to make a living.
Well.. in Korea, even gambling is illegal. So you really have to look at it from a stricter perspective I think. I believe for gambling, the punishment is being fined and/or going to jail. I presume this would merit a harsher punishment as it is a form of gambling that is even more immoral and such...
On August 21 2010 00:35 schmubob wrote: I'm not familiar with Korean law. Are those sentences suspended or are they you-have-to-be-in-jail kinda sentences?
The prosecutors want jail time, but frequently for white collar crime like this, the judge will just suspend the sentence
koreans are nuts ahaha, 18 months in holland is for heavy tax evation or illegal (huge) money making but for a couple of thousend dollars in some games jeesz. Players who use drug in sport get suspended a few years and so on but I quess asians are way harder in their justice systems than here in the rich west.
On August 21 2010 01:05 lungo wrote: 18months for doing illegal stuff in ESport.... even normal sport doesnt hit that "hard" TT
On August 21 2010 01:10 4Servy wrote: koreans are nuts ahaha, 18 months in holland is for heavy tax evation or illegal (huge) money making but for a couple of thousend dollars in some games jeesz. Players who use drug in sport get suspended a few years and so on but I quess asians are way harder in their justice systems than here in the rich west.
does anyone have any examples (other than this one of course) of match fixing in any other sports?
personally i don't think it's that harsh, because a lot of times i see in TV series people do actually go to jail for betting illegally. and i consider the person throwing matches, enticing others to throw matches, and being a middle man in all this, much worse than simply betting illegally on soccer games let's say. an NBA referee was sentenced to jail for betting on matches he refereed.
i know those aren't "exactly" the same scenarios, which is why i'm asking if any of you have any more "similar" examples.
This sounds harsh... Even though they might had signed some rights when they signed their progaming liscense which makes penalties way harsher than usual? or maybe prosecutors just go angry at them.
I'm sure because Savior and Justin actually lied about their role in the match fixing, is what is ticking off the prosecutors. That is why their punishment is also more severe, being ring leaders as well. Hwasin admitted it, even though he's guilty as well.
not familiar with justice systems around the world, but I was under the impression that the prosecutors tend to ask for very harsh sentences in general?
I dont know how the procecutors work in Korea, but if they're like in the west, it just means that that's what procecutors want, it never really happens, since there are lawers and stuff.
I know someone, who was supposed to go to jail for 2 years. But when the trial started all he turned out to get was community service.
Point is they always demand alot more than they'll get - They have to.
I started following the starcraft proscene and played Zerg because of savior. I feel so fucking mad and sad at the same time whenever I get reminded of what they did.
Going to prison for savior is going to be nuts..... especially after reading the 2 year prison thread....
On August 20 2010 23:43 rotinegg wrote: Savior and Justin are scumbags, at least hwasin apologized publicly (and it actually sounded sincere) before he went on trial
Um, if I remember correctly it came off as the complete opposite to me.
On August 20 2010 23:43 rotinegg wrote: Savior and Justin are scumbags, at least hwasin apologized publicly (and it actually sounded sincere) before he went on trial
Um, if I remember correctly it came off as the complete opposite to me.
They're all scumbags no matter how you slice it.
Hopefully they grow from it.
well yea, my b, my post was specifically directed at savior and justin's late "apology" and how they are saying they were "coerced" by others to do it. Some other gamers like hwasin apologized to the public before they were officially indicted iirc, but I may be wrong. But ur right theyre all scumbags however you look at it.
Savior deserves it. The fact that he lied, kept lying to his coach, and continued to lie even when it's exposed, CONTINUED TO LIE even when everybody else confessed, CONTINUED TO LIE to fans during trial, etc. etc. trying to minimized his role in the whole thing every step of the way, each time admitting to a little more even when we all know he went the whole 9 yards and then some.
Sorry for the incorrect translation, I guess I misinterpreted the articles;;
Anyway, I think this is wht they deserve anyway, what they done have damaged and contaminated E-sports in a way that fans and other normal citizens will not look at it the same way and it has and will make almost any other progamer who is slumping hard to be a possible illegal gambler. Damn, and here I was thinkng that BW had at least a decade moreto live on
18 months is so freaking long... -_- but then again he'll be out in less than a year probably.
this is way to harsh for illegal betting. its not like illegal betting happens less anywhere else. they were just stupid enough to get caught.
edit: People need to stop acting like e-sports is a holy grail where nothing evil happens. if you can bet on it then you can bet there will be illegal betting.
I don't think the prevalence of illegal betting has anything to do with anything, or that some people think esports is the epitome of virtue and good manner. I would even go so far as to say that it brought esports a step closer to the real deal, legitimized it in a way. It needs its good along with the bad. I'd place bets on NBA, NCAA, just a bit of fun, part of being a fan.
It's when the illegal betting is rigged, and by trusted insiders. NBA refs making false calls, interfering with the games, changing the outcomes, that's when we got a problem. They threaten to make the whole thing pointless, cus if it's not a competition of skills, what's the point? There's no point in betting or watching. Then people walk away from it, and the whole thing falls dead on its ass.
It would be the same as shaving points in football or fixing any other sport in the states. Starcraft is an actual sport so it doesn't seem that unrealistic. It all depends on the amount of money won/lost by both parties. Although a couple years in jail may be a bit much.
Does anyone have any info on how the whole korean justice system work?
As in, how long is it going to take after the final trial for the players to be put into jail, if there are different penitentiary levels, are they going to risk stabbings or are they just going to spend their days reading books and excercising in white cells with plexiglass walls and no bars? Also could their jail time be reduced or does this sort of thing not exist within the korean law system?
Contributing to illegal gambling = jailtime. Korea takes their shit seriously, as they should. Seeing as how most of the players involved only got fined (and their careers destroyed) as opposed to jailtime is also good, but the players responsible for pushing this like Savior and Justin deserve what they get.
On August 20 2010 23:01 Necosarius wrote: Yeah seems pretty harsh. Anything on Hwasin?
On August 21 2010 02:07 Milkis wrote: It was revealed how much the fines were during this trial. For the rest of the progamers not on the front pages, they will be fined...
go.go: 5 million won + additional 6 million won type-b: 5 million won + additional 6.5 million won Hwasin: 5 million won + additional 6 million won Upmagic: 3 million won + additional 3.5 million won Luxury: 5 million won + additional 7.5 million won Fake Yellow: 2 million won.
Prosecutors always cast a wide net when it comes to this thing since they (ideally) reflect the public attitude and trust. I wouldn't expect the judge will give anywhere near that harsh a final judgment.
I hope they get more than a ban from Esports and public disgrace. The way I see it, if we want people to respect E-sports and progamers, we should treat this like illegal betting in any sport.
I don't know what typical punishments for sports betting in Korea are like, but if it means going to jail, then these guys should go to jail.
On August 21 2010 02:07 Milkis wrote: It was revealed how much the fines were during this trial. For the rest of the progamers not on the front pages, they will be fined...
go.go: 5 million won + additional 6 million won type-b: 5 million won + additional 6.5 million won Hwasin: 5 million won + additional 6 million won Upmagic: 3 million won + additional 3.5 million won Luxury: 5 million won + additional 7.5 million won Fake Yellow: 2 million won.
Jesus Christ, type-b and go.go was in this too? A lot more players than I thought were involved. But MJY totally deserves this crap, such a slimbag.
Savior use to always be one of my all time favorite players. But after this scandal, I can never look at him the same. If I ever see him lose, there will always be a question of, "was it legitimate or not?"
On August 20 2010 23:01 Necosarius wrote: Yeah seems pretty harsh. Anything on Hwasin?
On August 21 2010 02:07 Milkis wrote: It was revealed how much the fines were during this trial. For the rest of the progamers not on the front pages, they will be fined...
go.go: 5 million won + additional 6 million won type-b: 5 million won + additional 6.5 million won Hwasin: 5 million won + additional 6 million won Upmagic: 3 million won + additional 3.5 million won Luxury: 5 million won + additional 7.5 million won Fake Yellow: 2 million won.
Jesus Christ, type-b and go.go was in this too? A lot more players than I thought were involved. But MJY totally deserves this crap, such a slimbag.
They've been known to be involved for ages, they apologized back when the accusations were being thrown. TBH I never really got mad when I found out about them like some people who disowned them immediately (fuck Savior for what he did though), they lost a lot more than they gained, and hopefully can move on with their lives.
Poor guys. I hope prison life isn't too harsh in Korea. I don't understand how people can be so callous and say "lol yeah they totally deserved it". What they did was wrong, but that doesn't mean they're terrible people who deserve to be in prison.
Meanwhile, in the foreigner scene, you have plenty of people who've been caught using hacks and instead of being shunned by the community, their misdeeds are quickly forgotten and they're accepted into big name clans with news posts about how totally awesome they are.
On August 20 2010 23:01 Necosarius wrote: Yeah seems pretty harsh. Anything on Hwasin?
On August 21 2010 02:07 Milkis wrote: It was revealed how much the fines were during this trial. For the rest of the progamers not on the front pages, they will be fined...
go.go: 5 million won + additional 6 million won type-b: 5 million won + additional 6.5 million won Hwasin: 5 million won + additional 6 million won Upmagic: 3 million won + additional 3.5 million won Luxury: 5 million won + additional 7.5 million won Fake Yellow: 2 million won.
Jesus Christ, type-b and go.go was in this too? A lot more players than I thought were involved. But MJY totally deserves this crap, such a slimbag.
Pretty much everyone on hite's A-team except for Leta and Horang2 were part of this.
On August 21 2010 09:59 DarkMatter_ wrote: Poor guys. I hope prison life isn't too harsh in Korea. I don't understand how people can be so callous and say "lol yeah they totally deserved it". What they did was wrong, but that doesn't mean they're terrible people who deserve to be in prison.
Meanwhile, in the foreigner scene, you have plenty of people who've been caught using hacks and instead of being shunned by the community, their misdeeds are quickly forgotten and they're accepted into big name clans with news posts about how totally awesome they are.
-_-
This isn't about hacks. This isn't even really about starcraft. It's about illegal sports gambling in S.Korea and perjury. If you think this is just an issue because of a few Starcraft matches you missed the point.
I can't believe all the people saying this is too harsh or it was just throwing a few games. I can only assume they haven't considered the fact that this is game throwing within the context of fans betting on games.
These people stole from fans who thought they were betting on a fair game. They abused the trust of the betters to help the betting websites steal their money in exchange for a share of the profit. 18 months is too lenient. Normal starcraft fans like you and I are the ones who lost money here because Savior used their trust in him to take their money.
On August 21 2010 09:59 DarkMatter_ wrote: Poor guys. I hope prison life isn't too harsh in Korea. I don't understand how people can be so callous and say "lol yeah they totally deserved it". What they did was wrong, but that doesn't mean they're terrible people who deserve to be in prison.
Meanwhile, in the foreigner scene, you have plenty of people who've been caught using hacks and instead of being shunned by the community, their misdeeds are quickly forgotten and they're accepted into big name clans with news posts about how totally awesome they are.
-_-
This isn't about hacks. This isn't even really about starcraft. It's about illegal sports gambling in S.Korea and perjury. If you think this is just an issue because of a few Starcraft matches you missed the point.
I realize that their crimes are much more severe and a severe punishment may be necessary to make sure that this never happens again, but that still doesn't change the fact that, as human beings, they are no worse than all the foreigners who've used hacks in tournaments and such.
My issue is not about whether they should be sentenced to jail or not, but it's the complete lack of empathy that bothers me.
On August 21 2010 09:59 DarkMatter_ wrote: Poor guys. I hope prison life isn't too harsh in Korea. I don't understand how people can be so callous and say "lol yeah they totally deserved it". What they did was wrong, but that doesn't mean they're terrible people who deserve to be in prison.
Meanwhile, in the foreigner scene, you have plenty of people who've been caught using hacks and instead of being shunned by the community, their misdeeds are quickly forgotten and they're accepted into big name clans with news posts about how totally awesome they are.
-_-
This isn't about hacks. This isn't even really about starcraft. It's about illegal sports gambling in S.Korea and perjury. If you think this is just an issue because of a few Starcraft matches you missed the point.
I realize that their crimes are much more severe and a severe punishment may be necessary to make sure that this never happens again, but that still doesn't change the fact that, as human beings, they are no worse than all the foreigners who've used hacks in tournaments and such.
My issue is not about whether they should be sentenced to jail or not, but it's the complete lack of empathy that bothers me.
Using a hack in a tournament is not breaking state law, just the rules of the tournament. The worst that can happen to you is you will be banned from the tournament and shunned by the community. Breaking the law, such as participating in and promoting illegal gambling is not comparable in the least.
On August 21 2010 10:13 KwarK wrote: I can't believe all the people saying this is too harsh or it was just throwing a few games. I can only assume they haven't considered the fact that this is game throwing within the context of fans betting on games.
These people stole from fans who thought they were betting on a fair game. They abused the trust of the betters to help the betting websites steal their money in exchange for a share of the profit. 18 months is too lenient. Normal starcraft fans like you and I are the ones who lost money here because Savior used their trust in him to take their money.
Since when did progamers have an obligation to gamblers? There are plenty of players who put no effort in some games simply because they don't give a crap. Would you consider that as abusing the trust of betters as well?
The ones I feel truly sorry for are the teammates, coaches and managers who work their ass off only to have it gone to waste because one of the players decided to throw his game and reveal his teammates' strategies.
On August 21 2010 09:59 DarkMatter_ wrote: Poor guys. I hope prison life isn't too harsh in Korea. I don't understand how people can be so callous and say "lol yeah they totally deserved it". What they did was wrong, but that doesn't mean they're terrible people who deserve to be in prison.
Meanwhile, in the foreigner scene, you have plenty of people who've been caught using hacks and instead of being shunned by the community, their misdeeds are quickly forgotten and they're accepted into big name clans with news posts about how totally awesome they are.
-_-
This isn't about hacks. This isn't even really about starcraft. It's about illegal sports gambling in S.Korea and perjury. If you think this is just an issue because of a few Starcraft matches you missed the point.
I realize that their crimes are much more severe and a severe punishment may be necessary to make sure that this never happens again, but that still doesn't change the fact that, as human beings, they are no worse than all the foreigners who've used hacks in tournaments and such.
My issue is not about whether they should be sentenced to jail or not, but it's the complete lack of empathy that bothers me.
Using a hack in a tournament is not breaking state law, just the rules of the tournament. The worst that can happen to you is you will be banned from the tournament and shunned by the community. Breaking the law, such as participating in and promoting illegal gambling is not comparable in the least.
Not comparable in what sense? It's not like I said the hackers should be put in jail. I'm talking about it from a moral standpoint. Do you feel that hacking and throwing games are not comparable in terms of morality? Why not?
On August 21 2010 09:59 DarkMatter_ wrote: Poor guys. I hope prison life isn't too harsh in Korea. I don't understand how people can be so callous and say "lol yeah they totally deserved it". What they did was wrong, but that doesn't mean they're terrible people who deserve to be in prison.
Meanwhile, in the foreigner scene, you have plenty of people who've been caught using hacks and instead of being shunned by the community, their misdeeds are quickly forgotten and they're accepted into big name clans with news posts about how totally awesome they are.
-_-
This isn't about hacks. This isn't even really about starcraft. It's about illegal sports gambling in S.Korea and perjury. If you think this is just an issue because of a few Starcraft matches you missed the point.
I realize that their crimes are much more severe and a severe punishment may be necessary to make sure that this never happens again, but that still doesn't change the fact that, as human beings, they are no worse than all the foreigners who've used hacks in tournaments and such.
My issue is not about whether they should be sentenced to jail or not, but it's the complete lack of empathy that bothers me.
Using a hack in a tournament is not breaking state law, just the rules of the tournament. The worst that can happen to you is you will be banned from the tournament and shunned by the community. Breaking the law, such as participating in and promoting illegal gambling is not comparable in the least.
Not comparable in what sense? It's not like I said the hackers should be put in jail. I'm talking about it from a moral standpoint. Do you feel that hacking and throwing games are not comparable in terms of morality? Why not?
Much like I don't put cheating in a game of Monopoly with your friends on the same level as defrauding investors in a ponzi scheme. Neither is ethical, but one doesn't stand to destroy the lives of others while the other is inherently malicious. Most forms of gambling (and sports betting) are illegal in Korea, this isn't about "oh, they threw this game" its about "oh, they participated in breaking state law in order to pocket some cash". S.Korea is making more of an example of them because of how mainstream this has become, but the issue isn't about Starcraft, nor about the individual players.
edit: And just to sum up, I never said they were "terrible people", just that the ones pushing this on others, and by doing so increasing the gambling ring (like Savior and Justin), knew exactly what they were getting involved with, and deserve what they get.
On August 21 2010 09:59 DarkMatter_ wrote: Poor guys. I hope prison life isn't too harsh in Korea. I don't understand how people can be so callous and say "lol yeah they totally deserved it". What they did was wrong, but that doesn't mean they're terrible people who deserve to be in prison.
Meanwhile, in the foreigner scene, you have plenty of people who've been caught using hacks and instead of being shunned by the community, their misdeeds are quickly forgotten and they're accepted into big name clans with news posts about how totally awesome they are.
-_-
This isn't about hacks. This isn't even really about starcraft. It's about illegal sports gambling in S.Korea and perjury. If you think this is just an issue because of a few Starcraft matches you missed the point.
I realize that their crimes are much more severe and a severe punishment may be necessary to make sure that this never happens again, but that still doesn't change the fact that, as human beings, they are no worse than all the foreigners who've used hacks in tournaments and such.
My issue is not about whether they should be sentenced to jail or not, but it's the complete lack of empathy that bothers me.
Using a hack in a tournament is not breaking state law, just the rules of the tournament. The worst that can happen to you is you will be banned from the tournament and shunned by the community. Breaking the law, such as participating in and promoting illegal gambling is not comparable in the least.
Not comparable in what sense? It's not like I said the hackers should be put in jail. I'm talking about it from a moral standpoint. Do you feel that hacking and throwing games are not comparable in terms of morality? Why not?
Much like I don't put cheating in a game of Monopoly with your friends on the same level as defrauding investors in a ponzi scheme. Neither is ethical, but one doesn't stand to destroy the lives of others while the other is inherently malicious. Most forms of gambling (and sports betting) are illegal in Korea, this isn't about "oh, they threw this game" its about "oh, they participated in breaking state law in order to pocket some cash". S.Korea is making more of an example of them because of how mainstream this has become, but the issue isn't about Starcraft, nor about the individual players.
When I said hacking, I meant hacking in tournaments, not in a random Bnet game (so I don't get the comparison with a monopoly game with my friends). You don't think people bet on matches in foreigner tournaments? You don't think it's terribly unfair to the other person who may have practiced his ass off for that game?
BTW, I get that it's illegal in Korea and they want to make an example out of them. I've already stated that that's not my issue here. My problem is the complete lack of empathy from many of the posters here. Doing something illegal doesn't automatically make someone a horrible person who deserved no sympathy or understanding.
It may be necessary that they go to jail (for reasons already discussed), but IMO, they don't deserve it. Outside of their crimes, they all seem like decent kids, certainly not the type of people that belong in prison. Subjecting them to prison life isn't going to make them better people, I hope people realize that.
On August 21 2010 10:54 DarkMatter_ wrote: It may be necessary that they go to jail (for reasons already discussed), but IMO, they don't deserve it. Outside of their crimes, they all seem like decent kids, certainly not the type of people that belong in prison. Subjecting them to prison life isn't going to make them better people, I hope people realize that.
pretty sure they deserve it
im a nice guy but i have happened to murder a couple of people "by mistake", can i get an exemption?
How do you murder someone by mistake? Describe the circumstances, and I'll give my opinion on it.
Also, I didn't say they should be given an exemption. It may be necessary that they go to jail so that something similar never happens again, but that is the only reason. They are not horrible people that should be isolated from normal society, nor are they the kind of people who need to be locked up in prison to be reformed. In that regard, I don't feel they deserve it. It's an unfortunate necessity, I wish people would just leave it at that instead of going "fuck yeah those scumbags are finally getting what they deserve".
EDIT: Ok, admittedly, no one said anything as harsh as the above, but I still wish people were a bit more sympathetic.
I understand the players did wrong, they should be punished, and that not doing so would give a symbolic green light for others to do it as well. What I don't understand is how this tackles the problem of illegal betting sites. It reminds me of the drug war locking up dealers because you can't figure out a way to get to the distributors.
In one of the translated after talks (thanks guys) the official said they caught 1 site out of 40 and that Kespa couldn't really do anything about it at their level. There has to be a way to get public action against sites that generate the easy money that would be tempting to anyone who's offered it, especially kids.
i would sympathize with them if they did it to pay for their father's surgery or something like that, but not if they did it for a rolex or a mercedes.
if they aren't "horrible" people, like you say, then just serve the sentence (which i doubt they'll get the full one anyway), come out and start your new life. i actually have huge respect for people who learn their lesson, do the time, and come back out and lead a great normal life.
On August 21 2010 10:13 KwarK wrote: I can't believe all the people saying this is too harsh or it was just throwing a few games. I can only assume they haven't considered the fact that this is game throwing within the context of fans betting on games.
These people stole from fans who thought they were betting on a fair game. They abused the trust of the betters to help the betting websites steal their money in exchange for a share of the profit. 18 months is too lenient. Normal starcraft fans like you and I are the ones who lost money here because Savior used their trust in him to take their money.
Since when did progamers have an obligation to gamblers? There are plenty of players who put no effort in some games simply because they don't give a crap. Would you consider that as abusing the trust of betters as well?
The ones I feel truly sorry for are the teammates, coaches and managers who work their ass off only to have it gone to waste because one of the players decided to throw his game and reveal his teammates' strategies.
they don't have an obligation to gamblers, but they did go out of their way to steal people's money, so although at first I thought it was sort of harsh, Kwark's argument made me change my mind, I think he's right, I definitely would not want a scumbag taking my hard-earned money like this
On August 20 2010 22:58 JWD wrote: 18 months jail time? For illegal betting? Wow Koreans have different notions of justice than Americans. That seems impossibly harsh to me.
If that had happen in Football or basketball in US, it would have been long jail time too. American justice is ridiculously severe from what I know: percentage of jailed people is around ten time higher than any european country (more than 1% adult is in jail in US iirc).
What's really sad is that I do't think Savior or Justin ever really realized what they were doing and risking. I hope the court won't be too harsh.
On August 20 2010 22:58 JWD wrote: 18 months jail time? For illegal betting? Wow Koreans have different notions of justice than Americans. That seems impossibly harsh to me.
Crimes like these usually have pretty harsh sentences though since the law want the incentives to rig matches like this to be really low (it's a bit like insider trading which also have fairly long penalties).
Although I only know a bit of swedish law this seems in line with what you would expect here (okay maybe not as long jail time due to age and what is most likely a first offence) but in comparison every time I hear about U.S sentences I feel like "damn thats like super harsh!".
On August 21 2010 10:13 KwarK wrote: I can't believe all the people saying this is too harsh or it was just throwing a few games. I can only assume they haven't considered the fact that this is game throwing within the context of fans betting on games.
These people stole from fans who thought they were betting on a fair game. They abused the trust of the betters to help the betting websites steal their money in exchange for a share of the profit. 18 months is too lenient. Normal starcraft fans like you and I are the ones who lost money here because Savior used their trust in him to take their money.
That reasoning is fine if we assume that the betting was done through legal betting websites/organizations. I was under the impression that most (all?) of the Starcraft gambling sites were illegal, which is why Proleague changed its format and stopped revealing lineups to curb the efforts of gambling websites. So if the gamblers get screwed, it's their own fault.
Edit: Guess you were talking about bets between individuals or friends. In that case, I still don't think Savior is legally responsible for your personal bets.
On August 21 2010 16:46 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On August 21 2010 16:03 TriniMasta wrote: YAY!!!!!!!
On August 21 2010 15:27 On_Slaught wrote: Really harsh penalties (tho understandable in that gaming society I suppose).
I wonder how they will be treated in prison.
yep I spend minutes fantasizing about sAviOr getting owned, outside of gaming, double the pleasure
Do you realize we are talking about young people who will spend years in jail?
Does that REALLY make you happy?
Savior deserves it since he not only participated in online gambling but actually coerced others into fucking up their careers and joining him.
I am not saying it is not fair. I am asking if it really makes him happy.
Savior is a kid who was a very good player, did something really dumb for very bad reasons, and get his life crushed.
The whole thing is sad, there is nothing to be happy about, imo.
Justice is a sad and necessary thing. But people who yell joyfully when they see someone going in jail or being punished are not moved by the feeling of justice.
On August 20 2010 22:58 JWD wrote: 18 months jail time? For illegal betting? Wow Koreans have different notions of justice than Americans. That seems impossibly harsh to me.
Americans love throwing people into prison so it seems like on this Koreans and Americans have the same notion of justice.
On August 20 2010 22:58 JWD wrote: 18 months jail time? For illegal betting? Wow Koreans have different notions of justice than Americans. That seems impossibly harsh to me.
If that had happen in Football or basketball in US, it would have been long jail time too. American justice is ridiculously severe from what I know: percentage of jailed people is around ten time higher than any european country (more than 1% adult is in jail in US iirc).
What's really sad is that I do't think Savior or Justin ever really realized what they were doing and risking. I hope the court won't be too harsh.
ppl of public interest (with enough money) dont go to jail in america. they can pay out their crimes. unfortunately i dont think progamers are millionaires.... otherwise...
I don't know anything about Korean prisons, but if they went into some state prisons, they would be the new women. A lot of the guys look feminine so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for the convicts to have new playmates.
On August 22 2010 21:03 sixfour wrote: anyone want to see a justin/savior special match at the next proleague allstars, winner gets 2 months reduction of jail time?
On August 22 2010 22:29 ShadeR wrote: These guys are screwed. I mean look at Nal_rA, they dedicate so much of their lives to gaming that their socially awkward home ALONE!
How exactly do you know anything about what they're like 'home alone'? By how they act in front of a camera for a TV show? There's some difference between how people naturally are, and how they are when put on the spot in such a situation.
While no doubt a great number are awkward, this is a ridiculous statement to make.
Was sitting 3 seats across from sAviOr (he looks like Jaedong IRL) in a PC Bang today -_______- He seemed pretty chill playing wc3 anime hero arena and sc (as protoss) Was gonna be a total fanboy but then I came to this OP. TT___TT Felt so bad for him, having only 2 weeks before a jail sentence hearing.
On August 22 2010 21:03 sixfour wrote: anyone want to see a justin/savior special match at the next proleague allstars, winner gets 2 months reduction of jail time?
lets bet on that game we can be sure its legit
How can you be sure... one could lose and get additional jail time if paid say.... 3 million won? : P
On August 20 2010 22:58 JWD wrote: 18 months jail time? For illegal betting? Wow Koreans have different notions of justice than Americans. That seems impossibly harsh to me.
If i think about how much money was lost by some and illegally won by some(includin savior) because of savior this seems lucky for him. i expected AT LEAST 24 month.
EDIT: remember guys: dont just look at the money savior won, but also at all the money from others, which was lost/won.
On August 20 2010 22:58 JWD wrote: 18 months jail time? For illegal betting? Wow Koreans have different notions of justice than Americans. That seems impossibly harsh to me.
If i think about how much money was lost by some and illegally won by some(includin savior) because of savior this seems lucky for him. i expected AT LEAST 24 month.
EDIT: remember guys: dont just look at the money savior won, but also at all the money from others, which was lost/won.
But if Savior didn't get very much from this then it wouldn't have been for money. So why would he do it. That's the question we should be asking if that's correct. That's the one that counts.
The sentence may seem harsh but here are things to consider:
a) This is not the final sentence, its what the prosecutors want. So, in a situation like this you always go high, and then settle for less. For example, if you're gonna sue someone you sue them for the highest feasible amount knowing that you won't get that, but the range in which they are willing to settle is much higher. We'll see what the final verdict is.
b) They (the match fixers) completely destroyed a lot of the trust in the pro-gamers, pro gaming, etc. it hurt the fans, sponsors, other pro-gamers, etc. A lot of you are saying the initial sentencing seems harsh, but consider this, the match-fixing scandal could've put an end to pro-gaming. It wouldn't be fair to the hundreds of kids who have sacrificed their lives, education, etc. to make it as a pro just to have the opportunity taken away from them because a few players got greedy. The potential damage from this scandal could've been HUGE, and there was a lot of fear that progaming would come to an end because of this. A lot of people outside of Korea think its completely socially-accepted to be progamers in Korea, but its really not. It's still hard, and they've made major strides towards legitimizing progaming and thats why it has become so viable, and the match-fixing scandal could've negated all of it.
So, how much did savior really earn to get a suggested 18 months ? I mean it cant be what some ppl here write, 3k usd or 1.7k usd... thats just too little money to get suggested over a year in prison for.
And that ppl say its cuz of how much dmg it made to the game reputation is just a joke, wtf has that got to do with how much jailtime he should have. Who cares how much it hurt the fans? Then every scandal would probably end up 40+ years jailtime for pro fotball players cuz the millions of fans gets hurt?
Progaming is shady/dark as crap. Look at how much time/effort these players put in and only a few get a good return. Hopefully the death of kespa will at least get rid of crazy korean teams practicing 15 hours a day but I doubt it.
These players all spent way too long playing starcraft and to end up like this plus jail time is pretty crappy.
On September 03 2010 15:13 dacthehork wrote: Progaming is shady/dark as crap. Look at how much time/effort these players put in and only a few get a good return. Hopefully the death of kespa will at least get rid of crazy korean teams practicing 15 hours a day but I doubt it.
These players all spent way too long playing starcraft and to end up like this plus jail time is pretty crappy.
you realize that kespa doesnt force them to practice and its death will mean no one will get any salary and only the 3 people who win a tournament gets any money at all?
On September 03 2010 15:13 dacthehork wrote: Hopefully the death of kespa will at least get rid of crazy korean teams practicing 15 hours a day but I doubt it.
Uh, KeSPA isn't going to die even if the court case doesn't go their way (and honestly it could go either way). But ignoring that, as was pointed out KeSPA doesn't force anyone to play for any amount of time and most players choose to practice 12+ hours a day as what their team mandates as required practice time usually is seen to be not enough for the high level of Brood War play.
Name one eSport where players actually make salaries. Name one eSport that has been able to last as long as Brood War with as many fans as it has. You can't, and while KeSPA isn't a shining knight of awesome it's not the evil entity that so many people are continually making it out to be. Honest to god I'd much rather work for KeSPA than for Activision.
Ummmm I thought TL displayed KST time on our posts in the first place heh (unless some of you guys don't look at laptop timer but changes the TL timezone setting to your location for heck of it).
Can't imagine what Savior is going through. Just delaying the inevitable of knowing you are going to prison, has to be one of the worst feelings ever. Not to mention obviously letting down an entire world who loved him and trusted him. I still love you Savior, be strong!
Did the underage progamers get out of prison time due to their age, or was it the people who apologized and admitted to it prior to the court case? I know they're receiving fines, but I'd take a fine of a couple thousand dollars over a week+ in jail any day.
Progamers dont owe us anything.. I dont know why everyone is like "we're the fans they owe us shit, i feel so betrayed blah blah blah" The truth is they dont owe us anything... Did you pay money to watch all of their games? Of course not, you watched it all free, so I dont know why anyone would be mad at this.
On September 12 2010 00:12 Mobius wrote: Progamers dont owe us anything.. I dont know why everyone is like "we're the fans they owe us shit, i feel so betrayed blah blah blah" The truth is they dont owe us anything... Did you pay money to watch all of their games? Of course not, you watched it all free, so I dont know why anyone would be mad at this.
It's because the fans watch that they get sponsorship and thus $ to play SC.
On September 12 2010 00:12 Mobius wrote: Progamers dont owe us anything.. I dont know why everyone is like "we're the fans they owe us shit, i feel so betrayed blah blah blah" The truth is they dont owe us anything... Did you pay money to watch all of their games? Of course not, you watched it all free, so I dont know why anyone would be mad at this.
Progaming is funded by deep black magic, you heard it here first.
September 10th Korean time. They are abouts a week behind us if my math is correct.
lol kid, the earth makes one rotation in one day its impossible to be behind a week lmao i think you need to go back to elementary school and understand some important concepts
September 10th Korean time. They are abouts a week behind us if my math is correct.
lol kid, the earth makes one rotation in one day its impossible to be behind a week lmao i think you need to go back to elementary school and understand some important concepts
Dude, they use another time system . Example: If your 15 in korean age your 14 in western age.
September 10th Korean time. They are abouts a week behind us if my math is correct.
lol kid, the earth makes one rotation in one day its impossible to be behind a week lmao i think you need to go back to elementary school and understand some important concepts
Dude, they use another time system . Example: If your 15 in korean age your 14 in western age.
they use an identical time system to the rest of the planet but they count your term in utero as a year of life, so you're 'a year old' when you're born
Could there be some truth into Savior's claim of being forced. I mean risking your entire career, reputation, and potential life for a measly few thousand dollars? There has to be more investigation to get down to the bottom of this as Zona said. Yes, this is some faint hope I have left that Savior is legit, but it's still something. I thought he was the scum of the earth for doing this, but if he was in some way forced, I can't help but feel bad for the guy.
September 10th Korean time. They are abouts a week behind us if my math is correct.
lol kid, the earth makes one rotation in one day its impossible to be behind a week lmao i think you need to go back to elementary school and understand some important concepts
Dude, they use another time system . Example: If your 15 in korean age your 14 in western age.
Are you serious? You think Korea is a year faster or something? Wow..
Messing with entertainment is huge crime, deserves jail time like the armed robbers and murderers amirite? Who knows what these match-fixers might do if released into society? Simply banning them from e-sports and imposing fines to take back the money they earned illegally is simply not enough for these lowest of criminals.
On September 13 2010 10:12 Yotta wrote: Messing with entertainment is huge crime, deserves jail time like the armed robbers and murderers amirite? Who knows what these match-fixers might do if released into society? Simply banning them from e-sports and imposing fines to take back the money they earned illegally is simply not enough for these lowest of criminals.
Also lol how's 2011, korea?
This has been addressed countless times, but do you think they are getting punished only because they hurt the feelings of esports fans? seriously now?? this is about illegal sports gambling in S.Korea.
oh man i didnt see this 2 weeks ago. This is going too far, we have to assemble a Tl.net rescue team and get savior outta there. can you guys imagine how would be like for him to go to jail? man, this has saddened me.
People need to be reminded that there are consequences to the actions we take. These need to be sufficient to act as a deterrent. A fine is insufficient; loss of career is logical. Jail time is therefore warranted.
These are adults - don't be mistaken. They understood why they were asked to throw the game, and did so to their financial gain. The punishment needs to be appropriate to the crime, and I'm afraid a fine is insufficient.
Bear in mind GSL's main goal is to establish a credible sc2 esport scene and having savior and the other match fixers entering the event will possibly stun the growth of sc2 scene in Korea.
September 10th Korean time. They are abouts a week behind us if my math is correct.
lol kid, the earth makes one rotation in one day its impossible to be behind a week lmao i think you need to go back to elementary school and understand some important concepts
and you might need to go back to joke detection school "if my math is correct" is the huge tipoff if nothing else makes it clear.
September 10th Korean time. They are abouts a week behind us if my math is correct.
lol kid, the earth makes one rotation in one day its impossible to be behind a week lmao i think you need to go back to elementary school and understand some important concepts
Dude, they use another time system . Example: If your 15 in korean age your 14 in western age.
Are you serious? You think Korea is a year faster or something? Wow..
Stop acting all superior, they actually do have another calendar in Korea and China as well and I guess you could argue that's a kind of time system, though I'm not that sure what the OP means. They have a lunar calendar, it amazes me how many people need to act superior about something they know absolutely nothing about or make a derogatory statements without backing it up.
September 10th Korean time. They are abouts a week behind us if my math is correct.
lol kid, the earth makes one rotation in one day its impossible to be behind a week lmao i think you need to go back to elementary school and understand some important concepts
Dude, they use another time system . Example: If your 15 in korean age your 14 in western age.
Are you serious? You think Korea is a year faster or something? Wow..
Stop acting all superior, they actually do have another calendar in Korea and China as well and I guess you could argue that's a kind of time system, though I'm not that sure what the OP means. They have a lunar calendar, it amazes me how many people need to act superior about something they know absolutely nothing about or make a derogatory statements without backing it up.
i grew up in china and visits frequently and i know they use same calender we use in canada. I also been to korea a few times and afaik the hotel+air port + tv uses the same calender.
September 10th Korean time. They are abouts a week behind us if my math is correct.
lol kid, the earth makes one rotation in one day its impossible to be behind a week lmao i think you need to go back to elementary school and understand some important concepts
Dude, they use another time system . Example: If your 15 in korean age your 14 in western age.
Are you serious? You think Korea is a year faster or something? Wow..
Stop acting all superior, they actually do have another calendar in Korea and China as well and I guess you could argue that's a kind of time system, though I'm not that sure what the OP means. They have a lunar calendar, it amazes me how many people need to act superior about something they know absolutely nothing about or make a derogatory statements without backing it up.
Lunar calendar is only used for special festivals and shits (Chinese New Year, Mid-Autumn Festival and so on, you name it).
In general, all Asian countries still use the normal calendar that the whole world is using.
September 10th Korean time. They are abouts a week behind us if my math is correct.
lol kid, the earth makes one rotation in one day its impossible to be behind a week lmao i think you need to go back to elementary school and understand some important concepts
Dude, they use another time system . Example: If your 15 in korean age your 14 in western age.
Are you serious? You think Korea is a year faster or something? Wow..
Stop acting all superior, they actually do have another calendar in Korea and China as well and I guess you could argue that's a kind of time system, though I'm not that sure what the OP means. They have a lunar calendar, it amazes me how many people need to act superior about something they know absolutely nothing about or make a derogatory statements without backing it up.
Here, how's this for a FINAL clarification.
I'm Korean. My parents live in Korea and I've lived in Korea half my life.
We use the exact same calendar system as used in the US, Canada, Europe, etc (most of the world). However, we also have a "lunar calendar" that is similar/identical to the one used in China; however, for all uses and purposes, we use the normal calendar. Lunar calendar is so rarely used that it pretty much is nonexistent and unnoticed by foreigners.
We use the exact same time system as used in the rest of the world. We just happen to be a few hours faster, obviously, due to the rotation of the earth. Don't be misled by the "age" thing, that's just a traditional way of counting our age, nothing to do with our time system whatsoever.
September 10th Korean time. They are abouts a week behind us if my math is correct.
lol kid, the earth makes one rotation in one day its impossible to be behind a week lmao i think you need to go back to elementary school and understand some important concepts
Dude, they use another time system . Example: If your 15 in korean age your 14 in western age.
Are you serious? You think Korea is a year faster or something? Wow..
Stop acting all superior, they actually do have another calendar in Korea and China as well and I guess you could argue that's a kind of time system, though I'm not that sure what the OP means. They have a lunar calendar, it amazes me how many people need to act superior about something they know absolutely nothing about or make a derogatory statements without backing it up.
Here, how's this for a FINAL clarification.
I'm Korean. My parents live in Korea and I've lived in Korea half my life.
We use the exact same calendar system as used in the US, Canada, Europe, etc (most of the world). However, we also have a "lunar calendar" that is similar/identical to the one used in China; however, for all uses and purposes, we use the normal calendar. Lunar calendar is so rarely used that it pretty much is nonexistent and unnoticed by foreigners.
We use the exact same time system as used in the rest of the world. We just happen to be a few hours faster, obviously, due to the rotation of the earth. Don't be misled by the "age" thing, that's just a traditional way of counting our age, nothing to do with our time system whatsoever.
clearly people from the west think that the only calendar is the "Gregorian Calendar" .. dont mind them ..
some people need to know cultures before making a fuss about something they clearly don't have any idea ..
September 10th Korean time. They are abouts a week behind us if my math is correct.
lol kid, the earth makes one rotation in one day its impossible to be behind a week lmao i think you need to go back to elementary school and understand some important concepts
Dude, they use another time system . Example: If your 15 in korean age your 14 in western age.
Are you serious? You think Korea is a year faster or something? Wow..
Stop acting all superior, they actually do have another calendar in Korea and China as well and I guess you could argue that's a kind of time system, though I'm not that sure what the OP means. They have a lunar calendar, it amazes me how many people need to act superior about something they know absolutely nothing about or make a derogatory statements without backing it up.
Here, how's this for a FINAL clarification.
I'm Korean. My parents live in Korea and I've lived in Korea half my life.
We use the exact same calendar system as used in the US, Canada, Europe, etc (most of the world). However, we also have a "lunar calendar" that is similar/identical to the one used in China; however, for all uses and purposes, we use the normal calendar. Lunar calendar is so rarely used that it pretty much is nonexistent and unnoticed by foreigners.
We use the exact same time system as used in the rest of the world. We just happen to be a few hours faster, obviously, due to the rotation of the earth. Don't be misled by the "age" thing, that's just a traditional way of counting our age, nothing to do with our time system whatsoever.
Oh shaddap. Can't you see evil monkey only had good intentions? You think he wouldn't know that korea uses gregorian calendar?
There's been a lot of calendars through out history. Gregorian being one. Its legitimacy is a practical one, nothing more. People who never gave a shit about the roman catholic church, still don't give a shit when using their calendar.
The only idiot here is the guy who said korea is a week off or something.
September 10th Korean time. They are abouts a week behind us if my math is correct.
lol kid, the earth makes one rotation in one day its impossible to be behind a week lmao i think you need to go back to elementary school and understand some important concepts
Dude, they use another time system . Example: If your 15 in korean age your 14 in western age.
Are you serious? You think Korea is a year faster or something? Wow..
Stop acting all superior, they actually do have another calendar in Korea and China as well and I guess you could argue that's a kind of time system, though I'm not that sure what the OP means. They have a lunar calendar, it amazes me how many people need to act superior about something they know absolutely nothing about or make a derogatory statements without backing it up.
Lunar calendar is only used for special festivals and shits (Chinese New Year, Mid-Autumn Festival and so on, you name it).
In general, all Asian countries still use the normal calendar that the whole world is using.
In Taiwan I got some receipts with the year 99 instead of 2010. But the day/month is still the same. I'm thinking about going to live down there so I can watch oov dominate all over again in a few years.
On September 13 2010 22:54 .risingdragoon wrote: A lot of places do that. Counting from the year 0 is a catholic thing.
The post I quoted was targeting Asia specifically and apart from Taiwan I've not heard about other asian countries still using non-gregorian calendars.
Edit: after some research, using a gregorian calendar doesn't mean you have to set t=0 at the birth of the Christ like I thought. TW is using the gregorian calendar but with an era starting in 1912 for us. And apparently Japan does the same, gregorian calendar but with different eras so yeah TW isn't alone. Interesting stuff, at least I've learned something today.
On August 20 2010 22:58 JWD wrote: 18 months jail time? For illegal betting? Wow Koreans have different notions of justice than Americans. That seems impossibly harsh to me.
No, people are just far too forgiving. If people were punished harshly instead of slapping their wrists, there would be far fewer problems in this world.
On August 20 2010 22:58 JWD wrote: 18 months jail time? For illegal betting? Wow Koreans have different notions of justice than Americans. That seems impossibly harsh to me.
No, people are just far too forgiving. If people were punished harshly instead of slapping their wrists, there would be far fewer problems in this world.
how is getting banned from esports and full life disgrace a slap on the wrist? especially considering it was done for like only 2-3k
this is so wrong.. koreans have too much honor imo. chill out a bit
On September 13 2010 10:12 Yotta wrote: Messing with entertainment is huge crime, deserves jail time like the armed robbers and murderers amirite? Who knows what these match-fixers might do if released into society? Simply banning them from e-sports and imposing fines to take back the money they earned illegally is simply not enough for these lowest of criminals.
Also lol how's 2011, korea?
You realize that people who bet on him were basically cheated out of their money? That's probably not the justification, because the betting was illegal in the first place but if you think this is just about hurt feelings you're mistaken.
September 10th Korean time. They are abouts a week behind us if my math is correct.
lol kid, the earth makes one rotation in one day its impossible to be behind a week lmao i think you need to go back to elementary school and understand some important concepts
Dude, they use another time system . Example: If your 15 in korean age your 14 in western age.
Are you serious? You think Korea is a year faster or something? Wow..
Stop acting all superior, they actually do have another calendar in Korea and China as well and I guess you could argue that's a kind of time system, though I'm not that sure what the OP means. They have a lunar calendar, it amazes me how many people need to act superior about something they know absolutely nothing about or make a derogatory statements without backing it up.
i grew up in china and visits frequently and i know they use same calender we use in canada. I also been to korea a few times and afaik the hotel+air port + tv uses the same calender.
Well, I've been in China for two years and fact is they ALSO have a lunar calendar and it's the only thing I pointed out.
September 10th Korean time. They are abouts a week behind us if my math is correct.
lol kid, the earth makes one rotation in one day its impossible to be behind a week lmao i think you need to go back to elementary school and understand some important concepts
Dude, they use another time system . Example: If your 15 in korean age your 14 in western age.
Are you serious? You think Korea is a year faster or something? Wow..
Stop acting all superior, they actually do have another calendar in Korea and China as well and I guess you could argue that's a kind of time system, though I'm not that sure what the OP means. They have a lunar calendar, it amazes me how many people need to act superior about something they know absolutely nothing about or make a derogatory statements without backing it up.
Lunar calendar is only used for special festivals and shits (Chinese New Year, Mid-Autumn Festival and so on, you name it).
In general, all Asian countries still use the normal calendar that the whole world is using.
I only said that they have a lunar calendar and that's not contradictory to what you just posted.........
Man... that's a long friggin' time in Jail. You see people that drink and drive only go to jail for short periods or get their license suspended/taken away. Those drunk bitches can KILL other people. Illegal betting amongst a private group of people? Hmm....
The guy's career and reputation has already been taken from him. Throwing him in jail is beating a dead horse. Think about it, you became famous and are well known around your entire country. It doesn't matter where you go now and what you do, a lot of people will frown on you and treat you like shit for the rest of your life. Honestly, justice has already been served.
On August 20 2010 22:58 JWD wrote: 18 months jail time? For illegal betting? Wow Koreans have different notions of justice than Americans. That seems impossibly harsh to me.
No, people are just far too forgiving. If people were punished harshly instead of slapping their wrists, there would be far fewer problems in this world.
if ultra repressive policies worked we would know it already. Look around and you'll notice that the only thing repression creates is more violence. Usa have ten time more people in jail than european countries and they are still far more violent and with much higher criminality rate.
18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane.
On August 20 2010 22:58 JWD wrote: 18 months jail time? For illegal betting? Wow Koreans have different notions of justice than Americans. That seems impossibly harsh to me.
No, people are just far too forgiving. If people were punished harshly instead of slapping their wrists, there would be far fewer problems in this world.
if ultra repressive policies worked we would know it already. Look around and you'll notice that the only thing repression creates is more violence. Usa have ten time more people in jail than european countries and they are still far more violent and with much higher criminality rate.
18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane.
If by repression you mean blatant socio-economic inequality built into the system.
USA jail thing is capitalism at work all the way in the government. Taking inmates out of their districts and putting them into predominantly white districts increases the proportional representation for them, and therefore more federal money (and less for the original districts). That's why lotta bible-thumping places want prisons, the bigger walls the better, built in their jurisdiction. Also prison industries providing the amenities like food cloth etc. are big businesses, they have an incentive to keep the prison population at a high level.
You're a smart guy, but stick to what you know, leave what you don't know the fuck alone. If you're self-motivated, read up on this. If you're a docile consumer, go watch The Wire.
Can I get a confirmation about Savior's titles getting taken away from him? Did they literally go to Savior and physically take away his trophies, badges, money (he probably spent it already), etc from him? Or was it just in the sense that he's erased from esports and they don't recognize his previous achievements. I'm thinking it's just the latter, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was both. In that case, would all the second place players technically become the winner of that OSL/MSL?
On September 19 2010 12:57 JIJIyO wrote: Can I get a confirmation about Savior's titles getting taken away from him? Did they literally go to Savior and physically take away his trophies, badges, money (he probably spent it already), etc from him? Or was it just in the sense that he's erased from esports and they don't recognize his previous achievements. I'm thinking it's just the latter, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was both. In that case, would all the second place players technically become the winner of that OSL/MSL?
I don't think they have the ability to take the trophies from him. How are they gonna force him, permaban from e-sports? Those objects DO belong to him since Kespa/OGN/MBC gave them to him.
On September 19 2010 12:57 JIJIyO wrote: Can I get a confirmation about Savior's titles getting taken away from him? Did they literally go to Savior and physically take away his trophies, badges, money (he probably spent it already), etc from him? Or was it just in the sense that he's erased from esports and they don't recognize his previous achievements. I'm thinking it's just the latter, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was both. In that case, would all the second place players technically become the winner of that OSL/MSL?
Money stays, titles go away. And no, the 2nd runners up aren't SL winners. Look at the OSL tribute video for example, Savior was still listed in the text as having won it, but he was cut from the entire video tribute, and during the Shinhan 3 OSL credits they just showed nada on the stage (who took 2nd place). I doubt they would physically take away the trophies, but yeah their glory is now blackened.
On September 19 2010 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 14 2010 01:22 Numy wrote:
On August 20 2010 22:58 JWD wrote: 18 months jail time? For illegal betting? Wow Koreans have different notions of justice than Americans. That seems impossibly harsh to me.
No, people are just far too forgiving. If people were punished harshly instead of slapping their wrists, there would be far fewer problems in this world.
if ultra repressive policies worked we would know it already. Look around and you'll notice that the only thing repression creates is more violence. Usa have ten time more people in jail than european countries and they are still far more violent and with much higher criminality rate.
18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane.
If by repression you mean blatant socio-economic inequality built into the system.
USA jail thing is capitalism at work all the way in the government. Taking inmates out of their districts and putting them into predominantly white districts increases the proportional representation for them, and therefore more federal money (and less for the original districts). That's why lotta bible-thumping places want prisons, the bigger walls the better, built in their jurisdiction. Also prison industries providing the amenities like food cloth etc. are big businesses, they have an incentive to keep the prison population at a high level.
You're a smart guy, but stick to what you know, leave what you don't know the fuck alone. If you're self-motivated, read up on this. If you're a docile consumer, go watch The Wire.
So you are saying, that keeping loads of people in prison is because of capitalism? Well of course it's got a lot to do with capitalism as you point out and to do with the gap between rich and poor. Now I'm just waiting for you to explain 'Why' America has a MUCH high crime rate, especially in regards to guns and violence in comparison with other countries. I thought Bif made a good point, although there was no need to take a snipe at the American system.
On August 20 2010 22:58 JWD wrote: 18 months jail time? For illegal betting? Wow Koreans have different notions of justice than Americans. That seems impossibly harsh to me.
No, people are just far too forgiving. If people were punished harshly instead of slapping their wrists, there would be far fewer problems in this world.
if ultra repressive policies worked we would know it already. Look around and you'll notice that the only thing repression creates is more violence. Usa have ten time more people in jail than european countries and they are still far more violent and with much higher criminality rate.
18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane.
The system in China is ultra repressive as you post and they kill loads of people, but they actually post really good figures in regards to crime rate, except for some places in the south. This is despite them being a capitalist country with a huge gap in wealth. I'm sure crime and crime rates is strongly culturally related as well. You cannot just blame the system, if they for example in America implemented a really really leniant policy towards, do you really think the crime rate would fall drastically? I don't.
On September 19 2010 15:06 Lightwip wrote: Honestly, I think something like $20k fine and 1 year ban is harsh enough.
This lot are adults and they know what they were getting into and they damaged the image of something I like a lot. They need to do jail time for this, you can't turn a blind eye to corruption and criminal activity.
On September 19 2010 15:06 Lightwip wrote: Honestly, I think something like $20k fine and 1 year ban is harsh enough.
This lot are adults and they know what they were getting into and they damaged the image of something I like a lot. They need to do jail time for this, you can't turn a blind eye to corruption and criminal activity.
Savior's true crime: Destroying the the hearts of korean fangirls. Truly unforgivable!
On September 19 2010 15:06 Lightwip wrote: Honestly, I think something like $20k fine and 1 year ban is harsh enough.
This lot are adults and they know what they were getting into and they damaged the image of something I like a lot. They need to do jail time for this, you can't turn a blind eye to corruption and criminal activity.
No matter how bad that is, it's not a crime. They can't be punished for that. They were involved in fraud and illegal gambling and such, that's all they need to be punished for.
I understand US and Korean penal systems are probably quite different.
But 18 months is a LONG time. It was far different than I ever imagined it and it changes you for life. Even if you are only in for a short time.
People who haven't been locked up throw around terms like months and years with no concept of what they actually mean. I would support fines and MAYBE a token sentence like 30 days in what amounts over there to county Jail. His crimes were non violent and he was very young.
On September 19 2010 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 14 2010 01:22 Numy wrote:
On August 20 2010 22:58 JWD wrote: 18 months jail time? For illegal betting? Wow Koreans have different notions of justice than Americans. That seems impossibly harsh to me.
No, people are just far too forgiving. If people were punished harshly instead of slapping their wrists, there would be far fewer problems in this world.
if ultra repressive policies worked we would know it already. Look around and you'll notice that the only thing repression creates is more violence. Usa have ten time more people in jail than european countries and they are still far more violent and with much higher criminality rate.
18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane.
If by repression you mean blatant socio-economic inequality built into the system.
USA jail thing is capitalism at work all the way in the government. Taking inmates out of their districts and putting them into predominantly white districts increases the proportional representation for them, and therefore more federal money (and less for the original districts). That's why lotta bible-thumping places want prisons, the bigger walls the better, built in their jurisdiction. Also prison industries providing the amenities like food cloth etc. are big businesses, they have an incentive to keep the prison population at a high level.
You're a smart guy, but stick to what you know, leave what you don't know the fuck alone. If you're self-motivated, read up on this. If you're a docile consumer, go watch The Wire.
I fail to see where what you say contradict what I said.
From what I know, the core reason why US have so many prisonners and so such repressive policies is that their prison are in a large part profit making activities of groups which spend millions dollars in lobbying / propaganda:
Now on topic, this idea that very harsh justice system reduces criminality is as simplist as thinking that death penalty reduces the amount of murder. We know since XIXth century that it is bullcrap.
The fact is that by jailing people for long time for almost no reason, you create future criminals.
Criminlaity is a social problem. You can't solve it with the stick only. And the bigger stick doesn't solve the problem better. That's all what I was saying.
On September 19 2010 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 14 2010 01:22 Numy wrote:
On August 20 2010 22:58 JWD wrote: 18 months jail time? For illegal betting? Wow Koreans have different notions of justice than Americans. That seems impossibly harsh to me.
No, people are just far too forgiving. If people were punished harshly instead of slapping their wrists, there would be far fewer problems in this world.
if ultra repressive policies worked we would know it already. Look around and you'll notice that the only thing repression creates is more violence. Usa have ten time more people in jail than european countries and they are still far more violent and with much higher criminality rate.
18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane.
The system in China is ultra repressive as you post and they kill loads of people, but they actually post really good figures in regards to crime rate, except for some places in the south. This is despite them being a capitalist country with a huge gap in wealth. I'm sure crime and crime rates is strongly culturally related as well. You cannot just blame the system, if they for example in America implemented a really really leniant policy towards, do you really think the crime rate would fall drastically? I don't.
Nop, but I am siure for example that when in 81 France supressed death penalty, the murder rate did not increase.
Now, what I am saying is that it's not by being incredibly severe that you reduce your crimionality, and that too harsh justice is absolutely counter productive. I perfectly know that the problem of criminality has many factors and can't be reduced the repressiveness of the State.
On September 19 2010 15:06 Lightwip wrote: Honestly, I think something like $20k fine and 1 year ban is harsh enough.
This lot are adults and they know what they were getting into and they damaged the image of something I like a lot. They need to do jail time for this, you can't turn a blind eye to corruption and criminal activity.
No matter how bad that is, it's not a crime. They can't be punished for that. They were involved in fraud and illegal gambling and such, that's all they need to be punished for.
They are adults and are accountable for their own acts and under contract as well. Their acts have brought irreparable damage to their teams and their industry costing people lots of money. For example, ex-Chelsea player Adrian Mutu was sued by the club for doing heroin and Chelsea won. This is on a smaller scale but what they did was completely and utterly wrong and the principal is the same.
On September 19 2010 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane.
Yes, because illegal gambling and rigging professional matches where sponsors pour millions of dollars into the competition and tampering with such things to turn a profit is childish...
Look, I want to believe Savior is innocent, but saying that this was a childish mistake is just cutting him way too much slack.
On September 19 2010 15:06 Lightwip wrote: Honestly, I think something like $20k fine and 1 year ban is harsh enough.
This lot are adults and they know what they were getting into and they damaged the image of something I like a lot. They need to do jail time for this, you can't turn a blind eye to corruption and criminal activity.
No matter how bad that is, it's not a crime. They can't be punished for that. They were involved in fraud and illegal gambling and such, that's all they need to be punished for.
They are adults and are accountable for their own acts and under contract as well. Their acts have brought irreparable damage to their teams and their industry costing people lots of money. For example, ex-Chelsea player Adrian Mutu was sued by the club for doing heroin and Chelsea won. This is on a smaller scale but what they did was completely and utterly wrong and the principal is the same.
On September 19 2010 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 14 2010 01:22 Numy wrote:
On August 20 2010 22:58 JWD wrote: 18 months jail time? For illegal betting? Wow Koreans have different notions of justice than Americans. That seems impossibly harsh to me.
No, people are just far too forgiving. If people were punished harshly instead of slapping their wrists, there would be far fewer problems in this world.
if ultra repressive policies worked we would know it already. Look around and you'll notice that the only thing repression creates is more violence. Usa have ten time more people in jail than european countries and they are still far more violent and with much higher criminality rate.
18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane.
If by repression you mean blatant socio-economic inequality built into the system.
USA jail thing is capitalism at work all the way in the government. Taking inmates out of their districts and putting them into predominantly white districts increases the proportional representation for them, and therefore more federal money (and less for the original districts). That's why lotta bible-thumping places want prisons, the bigger walls the better, built in their jurisdiction. Also prison industries providing the amenities like food cloth etc. are big businesses, they have an incentive to keep the prison population at a high level.
You're a smart guy, but stick to what you know, leave what you don't know the fuck alone. If you're self-motivated, read up on this. If you're a docile consumer, go watch The Wire.
So you are saying, that keeping loads of people in prison is because of capitalism? Well of course it's got a lot to do with capitalism as you point out and to do with the gap between rich and poor. Now I'm just waiting for you to explain 'Why' America has a MUCH high crime rate, especially in regards to guns and violence in comparison with other countries. I thought Bif made a good point, although there was no need to take a snipe at the American system.
No, I'm saying it's happening on many more levels than just money. Obvious the game is set long before any of us were around, capitalism sees to it that certain status quo is maintained as long as average people will tolerate it.
An easy answer has to do with the availability of guns, and the cultural attitude toward violence as the acceptable means of getting even. Highly repressive laws are just a patch on an ongoing epidemic. Another reason is the common history b/w people in the US is not a healthy one where man feels responsible for another man. We're not a melting pot, maybe we were at the end of the 60s for a bit that gradually seesawed back. We're more like a tossed salad that's implicitly conforming to an Angelo majority.
I've read just about the same from Europe, particularly France. The law can't right this injustice cus it is happening at a micro-socio level that build up to a sense of bleakness and hopelessness, which prompts physical violence. It's the same thing with domestic violence. Many women will push your buttons till they boil you down to basically the last thing men have over them, physicality. That's when it happens. When you take everything the guy has, he has nothing to lose.
I remember one story I read about a little Chinese girl immigrating to Denmark decades ago. Back in those days danish kids were fascinated by her, and felt a sense of pride having her as a friend. I know that's not how it is anymore. This shift of focus from seeing the good aspect of a person to only the bad and the different is what creates the bad feelings b/w people.
On September 19 2010 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 14 2010 01:22 Numy wrote:
On August 20 2010 22:58 JWD wrote: 18 months jail time? For illegal betting? Wow Koreans have different notions of justice than Americans. That seems impossibly harsh to me.
No, people are just far too forgiving. If people were punished harshly instead of slapping their wrists, there would be far fewer problems in this world.
if ultra repressive policies worked we would know it already. Look around and you'll notice that the only thing repression creates is more violence. Usa have ten time more people in jail than european countries and they are still far more violent and with much higher criminality rate.
18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane.
If by repression you mean blatant socio-economic inequality built into the system.
USA jail thing is capitalism at work all the way in the government. Taking inmates out of their districts and putting them into predominantly white districts increases the proportional representation for them, and therefore more federal money (and less for the original districts). That's why lotta bible-thumping places want prisons, the bigger walls the better, built in their jurisdiction. Also prison industries providing the amenities like food cloth etc. are big businesses, they have an incentive to keep the prison population at a high level.
You're a smart guy, but stick to what you know, leave what you don't know the fuck alone. If you're self-motivated, read up on this. If you're a docile consumer, go watch The Wire.
I fail to see where what you say contradict what I said.
From what I know, the core reason why US have so many prisonners and so such repressive policies is that their prison are in a large part profit making activities of groups which spend millions dollars in lobbying / propaganda:
Now on topic, this idea that very harsh justice system reduces criminality is as simplist as thinking that death penalty reduces the amount of murder. We know since XIXth century that it is bullcrap.
The fact is that by jailing people for long time for almost no reason, you create future criminals.
Criminlaity is a social problem. You can't solve it with the stick only. And the bigger stick doesn't solve the problem better. That's all what I was saying.
There's no easy solution to a social problem.
Constitutional democracy is ill-equipped to deal with thorny problems that need long term solution, especially when increasingly people are starting to see their political position as the means of advancing their own interests.
To be semi-effective individually in American politics one has to be in the position + commit political suicide. How many people are willing to do that? The old saying is "people who care don't know, people who know don't care."
On September 19 2010 15:06 Lightwip wrote: Honestly, I think something like $20k fine and 1 year ban is harsh enough.
This lot are adults and they know what they were getting into and they damaged the image of something I like a lot. They need to do jail time for this, you can't turn a blind eye to corruption and criminal activity.
No matter how bad that is, it's not a crime. They can't be punished for that. They were involved in fraud and illegal gambling and such, that's all they need to be punished for.
They are adults and are accountable for their own acts and under contract as well. Their acts have brought irreparable damage to their teams and their industry costing people lots of money. For example, ex-Chelsea player Adrian Mutu was sued by the club for doing heroin and Chelsea won. This is on a smaller scale but what they did was completely and utterly wrong and the principal is the same.
That's a civil issue, not a criminal one.
I never wrote that it was.............I wrote they are accountable for their actions.
savior almost completely destroyed eSports, the fans, players, and sponsors are pissed. Its not just about disgracing himself and his team, its about the money he cost Esports.
On September 19 2010 15:06 Lightwip wrote: Honestly, I think something like $20k fine and 1 year ban is harsh enough.
This lot are adults and they know what they were getting into and they damaged the image of something I like a lot. They need to do jail time for this, you can't turn a blind eye to corruption and criminal activity.
No matter how bad that is, it's not a crime. They can't be punished for that. They were involved in fraud and illegal gambling and such, that's all they need to be punished for.
They are adults and are accountable for their own acts and under contract as well. Their acts have brought irreparable damage to their teams and their industry costing people lots of money. For example, ex-Chelsea player Adrian Mutu was sued by the club for doing heroin and Chelsea won. This is on a smaller scale but what they did was completely and utterly wrong and the principal is the same.
That's a civil issue, not a criminal one.
I never wrote that it was.............I wrote they are accountable for their actions.
That isn't a legal responsibility. You can't be punished for something not against the law, no matter how bad it is. By the way
On September 19 2010 18:11 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 19 2010 09:16 .risingdragoon wrote:
On September 19 2010 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 14 2010 01:22 Numy wrote:
On August 20 2010 22:58 JWD wrote: 18 months jail time? For illegal betting? Wow Koreans have different notions of justice than Americans. That seems impossibly harsh to me.
No, people are just far too forgiving. If people were punished harshly instead of slapping their wrists, there would be far fewer problems in this world.
if ultra repressive policies worked we would know it already. Look around and you'll notice that the only thing repression creates is more violence. Usa have ten time more people in jail than european countries and they are still far more violent and with much higher criminality rate.
18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane.
If by repression you mean blatant socio-economic inequality built into the system.
USA jail thing is capitalism at work all the way in the government. Taking inmates out of their districts and putting them into predominantly white districts increases the proportional representation for them, and therefore more federal money (and less for the original districts). That's why lotta bible-thumping places want prisons, the bigger walls the better, built in their jurisdiction. Also prison industries providing the amenities like food cloth etc. are big businesses, they have an incentive to keep the prison population at a high level.
You're a smart guy, but stick to what you know, leave what you don't know the fuck alone. If you're self-motivated, read up on this. If you're a docile consumer, go watch The Wire.
I fail to see where what you say contradict what I said.
From what I know, the core reason why US have so many prisonners and so such repressive policies is that their prison are in a large part profit making activities of groups which spend millions dollars in lobbying / propaganda:
Now on topic, this idea that very harsh justice system reduces criminality is as simplist as thinking that death penalty reduces the amount of murder. We know since XIXth century that it is bullcrap.
The fact is that by jailing people for long time for almost no reason, you create future criminals.
Criminlaity is a social problem. You can't solve it with the stick only. And the bigger stick doesn't solve the problem better. That's all what I was saying.
There's no easy solution to a social problem.
Constitutional democracy is ill-equipped to deal with thorny problems that need long term solution, especially when increasingly people are starting to see their political position as the means of advancing their own interests.
To be semi-effective individually in American politics one has to be in the position + commit political suicide. How many people are willing to do that? The old saying is "people who care don't know, people who know don't care."
I think we agree on everything on this matter. Representative parlementarism is a broken system anyway a the age of mass medias and advanced globalized capitalism. I wouldn't call our political system "democracies" anymore at all since people don't have any choice and since government are not following at all the interest of the vast majority of the population.
Anyway. My point of departure was just to prove the equation [harsher justice = less criminality] wrong.
On September 19 2010 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane.
Yes, because illegal gambling and rigging professional matches where sponsors pour millions of dollars into the competition and tampering with such things to turn a profit is childish...
Look, I want to believe Savior is innocent, but saying that this was a childish mistake is just cutting him way too much slack.
Nah, the point is that Savior's crime was about a couple of thousand dollars. And that Savior is clearly a nerd who has left childhood only to go to video game playing 14 hours a day, and that you can't expect the result to be brilliant in terms of maturity.
The kid has done something really stupid, broken his career, lost his reputation. I don't really see who will benefot him going a year and a half in jail and getting raped in this ass everyday by real tough gangster. That seems a bit overkill.
On September 19 2010 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane.
Yes, because illegal gambling and rigging professional matches where sponsors pour millions of dollars into the competition and tampering with such things to turn a profit is childish...
Look, I want to believe Savior is innocent, but saying that this was a childish mistake is just cutting him way too much slack.
Nah, the point is that Savior's crime was about a couple of thousand dollars. And that Savior is clearly a nerd who has left childhood only to go to video game playing 14 hours a day, and that you can't expect the result to be brilliant in terms of maturity.
The kid has done something really stupid, broken his career, lost his reputation. I don't really see who will benefot him going a year and a half in jail and getting raped in this ass everyday by real tough gangster. That seems a bit overkill.
On September 20 2010 02:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 19 2010 20:37 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:
On September 19 2010 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane.
Yes, because illegal gambling and rigging professional matches where sponsors pour millions of dollars into the competition and tampering with such things to turn a profit is childish...
Look, I want to believe Savior is innocent, but saying that this was a childish mistake is just cutting him way too much slack.
Nah, the point is that Savior's crime was about a couple of thousand dollars. And that Savior is clearly a nerd who has left childhood only to go to video game playing 14 hours a day, and that you can't expect the result to be brilliant in terms of maturity.
The kid has done something really stupid, broken his career, lost his reputation. I don't really see who will benefot him going a year and a half in jail and getting raped in this ass everyday by real tough gangster. That seems a bit overkill.
On September 20 2010 02:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 19 2010 20:37 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:
On September 19 2010 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane.
Yes, because illegal gambling and rigging professional matches where sponsors pour millions of dollars into the competition and tampering with such things to turn a profit is childish...
Look, I want to believe Savior is innocent, but saying that this was a childish mistake is just cutting him way too much slack.
Nah, the point is that Savior's crime was about a couple of thousand dollars. And that Savior is clearly a nerd who has left childhood only to go to video game playing 14 hours a day, and that you can't expect the result to be brilliant in terms of maturity.
The kid has done something really stupid, broken his career, lost his reputation. I don't really see who will benefot him going a year and a half in jail and getting raped in this ass everyday by real tough gangster. That seems a bit overkill.
his crime was over a million $ but ok.
Did he seriously made a million $ by dropping theses games? Last time I read about theses none were more than a few thousands. Maybe I am wrong.
On September 19 2010 15:06 Lightwip wrote: Honestly, I think something like $20k fine and 1 year ban is harsh enough.
This lot are adults and they know what they were getting into and they damaged the image of something I like a lot. They need to do jail time for this, you can't turn a blind eye to corruption and criminal activity.
No matter how bad that is, it's not a crime. They can't be punished for that. They were involved in fraud and illegal gambling and such, that's all they need to be punished for.
They are adults and are accountable for their own acts and under contract as well. Their acts have brought irreparable damage to their teams and their industry costing people lots of money. For example, ex-Chelsea player Adrian Mutu was sued by the club for doing heroin and Chelsea won. This is on a smaller scale but what they did was completely and utterly wrong and the principal is the same.
That's a civil issue, not a criminal one.
I never wrote that it was.............I wrote they are accountable for their actions.
That isn't a legal responsibility. You can't be punished for something not against the law, no matter how bad it is. By the way
To be honest, Savior should (and must) go to jail for this. Apart from gambling being illegal in South Korea, there's the issue of defrauding people through the match-fixing and the issue of being a ring-leader/middle-man from his involvement in match-fixing. Even though it's almost a proven fact that becoming a pro-gamer does take away from the potential maturity levels as well as the life experience outside of gaming, it's no excuse saying that this is a "childish crime". (especially if the high 6-figure to low 7-figure USD money amount is correct)
Though, I'm thankful that e-Sports has managed to come out of this potential death-bed reasonably unharmed. I guess I see e-Sports having the same sort of gentlemanly ethos* in the foundations as Cricket did (Chess is analogous to this as well), and I don't enjoy seeing the 'face' of the game being tarnished.
*I do know that there is BM in e-Sports though, and it usually has it's place when done with non-douchery.
On September 20 2010 02:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 19 2010 20:37 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:
On September 19 2010 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane.
Yes, because illegal gambling and rigging professional matches where sponsors pour millions of dollars into the competition and tampering with such things to turn a profit is childish...
Look, I want to believe Savior is innocent, but saying that this was a childish mistake is just cutting him way too much slack.
Nah, the point is that Savior's crime was about a couple of thousand dollars. And that Savior is clearly a nerd who has left childhood only to go to video game playing 14 hours a day, and that you can't expect the result to be brilliant in terms of maturity.
The kid has done something really stupid, broken his career, lost his reputation. I don't really see who will benefot him going a year and a half in jail and getting raped in this ass everyday by real tough gangster. That seems a bit overkill.
his crime was over a million $ but ok.
Don't you mean "over a million won?" The news article released to us said the figure was around 30 million won per match (which afaik is about 30 thousand dollars).
Cheating me a fellow starcraft vod viewer is a serious crime. All the time I wasted watching Savior and thinking the match was a fair competitive battle. 18 months is necessary for him to get the full treatment. I hope he gets bum poked multiple times in prison.
On August 20 2010 23:04 Cofo wrote: Yikes. Good luck breaking out of the contain this time, Savior.
GOLD
Oh yeah :D
Well, the issue is money. "Digital" money in a way as it's not been like bankrobbing with physical values involved, which makes it more "touchable" and thus requires more criminal intention than "digital" scamming. Doing some mouse clicks doesn't require much criminal energy even if it's against law and ethics, while breaking a building or safe does. Also it's not like it "feels" like damaging someone, other than taking banknotes from someone else's possession. As I rather measure guilt in intentions and reasons, I've no idea what judgement would be suitable. Might've been needless greed which would deserve a high punishment imo, or it might've been the thought "let's create some money out of nowhere" which can be an easily done mistake and shouldn't be punished too hard as the shock of trial etc. most likely teaches him the lesson anyways.. Just two examples. It "feels" to me that it's been more likely a version without much criminal intent in it, but I might be wrong.
In general I feel like that there is a disbalance between punishments on thievery/damaging or stealing items that can be replaced and violent crimes. One example a german speaker gave (under german laws of course): "Beating up a policemen can get you in jail for two years. Demolishing his car can get you in jail for five years."
On September 20 2010 03:55 ilbh wrote: does he keep the money? I'm curious now... because 18 months in prison for 1+ million dollars is not that bad LOL
Are you retarded? What do you think a criminal record means for the rest of your life?
On September 20 2010 03:55 ilbh wrote: does he keep the money? I'm curious now... because 18 months in prison for 1+ million dollars is not that bad LOL
Are you retarded? What do you think a criminal record means for the rest of your life?
The Canadian and Korean systems aren't the same bud and a million dollars (I don't think he made that much) would be enough to live off for a very very very long time in Korea. You automatically assume that Savior would never be able to get a job or anything when it's not really the case at all.
On September 20 2010 02:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 19 2010 20:37 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:
On September 19 2010 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane.
Yes, because illegal gambling and rigging professional matches where sponsors pour millions of dollars into the competition and tampering with such things to turn a profit is childish...
Look, I want to believe Savior is innocent, but saying that this was a childish mistake is just cutting him way too much slack.
Nah, the point is that Savior's crime was about a couple of thousand dollars. And that Savior is clearly a nerd who has left childhood only to go to video game playing 14 hours a day, and that you can't expect the result to be brilliant in terms of maturity.
The kid has done something really stupid, broken his career, lost his reputation. I don't really see who will benefot him going a year and a half in jail and getting raped in this ass everyday by real tough gangster. That seems a bit overkill.
his crime was over a million $ but ok.
I'd hope someone tells the full story sometime. It's so frustrating to know that we're missing most of it.
I think people are confusing won with $. A million won is only ~$1k. I highly doubt savior caused millions of dollars worth of damage. 1st place of the OSL, which is the most prestigious league, is only granted $40k. He was only making ~$1k throwing games among a private group of people. Not as significant as most people think. And certainly not worth 18 months in jail.
You can't use 'he plays games all day' to reclassify adults as kids, especially not in the case of someone who isn't a B-teamer sitting in the house all day every day.
He almost certainly (or a reasonable person in his position) could understand the implications on esports from his actions, and understood that both he and the people he pulled into it were engaging in illegal activity, the effects of which could be quite far-reaching for other professionals in the esports field.
On September 21 2010 11:31 zhouzhou wrote: I think people are confusing won with $. A million won is only ~$1k. I highly doubt savior caused millions of dollars worth of damage. 1st place of the OSL, which is the most prestigious league, is only granted $40k. He was only making ~$1k throwing games among a private group of people. Not as significant as most people think. And certainly not worth 18 months in jail.
It's Rekrul who said that <_< He doesn't confuse those
스타크래프트 경기 승부조작 사건이 7차 공판을 마지막으로 변론을 종결하고 최종 선고만을 앞두게 됐다.
서울중앙지방법원 형사 22부는 7일 오후 5시 서관 법정에서 스타크래프트 경기 승부조작 사건으로 적발된 피고인들에 대한 7차 공판을 진행했다.
이날 공판에서는 지난 1일 6차 공판에서 피고인들의 사기 범죄 관련한 심문에 따른 조서 변경이 고지됐고, 각 도박 사이트 별로 피고인들의 베팅액 측정이 힘들고 금액이 명확하지 않은 부분을 송금액과 배당금을 토대로 수정해 조서에 반영했다.
마지막으로 검사 측은 지난 8월 20일 5차 공판에서 피고인들에게 구형한 형량을 유지한 채 공판을 종결지었고, 재판부는 오는 10월 22일 오전 10시 같은 법정에서 피고인 8명에 대한 최종 형량을 선고한다고 밝혔다.
이에 재판부는 오는 10월 22일 오전 10시 피고인 8명에 대해 최종 형량을 선고할 예정이다.
▶ 스타크래프트 경기 승부조작 사건 공판 일지 ◆ 1차 공판 - 6월 4일 오전 11시 브로커 박모씨(구속) - 공갈 혐의 부인 프로게이머 원모씨(변호사 선임) - 혐의 인정 프로게이머 마모씨 - 혐의 일부 부인 축구선수 정모씨 - 혐의 일부 부인 은행원 박모씨 - 혐의 인정 전직 프로게이머 정모씨 - 혐의 인정 전직 프로게이머 최모씨 - 혐의 인정 자영업 이모씨 - 혐의 인정 ◆ 2차 공판 - 6월 24일 오후 2시 브로커 박모씨(구속) - 공갈 혐의 부인으로 인한 증인 심문 프로게이머 원모씨(변호사 선임) - 혐의 인정 프로게이머 마모씨(변호사 선임) - 종전 일부 혐의 부인에서 혐의 인정으로 입장 선회 축구선수 정모씨(변호사 선임) - 혐의 일부 부인 프로게이머 박모씨 - 승부조작 가담 경위, 조작 방법 등 진술 프로게이머 박모씨 - 승부조작 가담 경위, 조작 방법 등 진술 ◆ 3차 공판 - 7월 7일 오후 5시 축구선수 정모씨(변호사 선임) - 승부조작에 적극 가담하지 않았음을 주장 프로게이머 진모씨 - 승부조작 가담 경위, 조작 방법 등 진술 ◆ 4차 공판 - 7월 22일 오후 4시 브로커 박모씨(구속) - 원모씨가 승부조작 주도했다 주장 프로게이머 원모씨 - 박모씨가 승부조작 주도했다 주장 축구선수 정모씨 - 마모씨와 협의해 1건 승부조작 진행 진술 프로게이머 마모씨 - 정모씨, 원모씨 등과 4건(1건은 상대 거절로 무산)의 승부조작 진행 진술 ◆ 5차 공판 - 8월 20일 오후 3시 브로커 박모씨(구속) - 징역 2년 구형 프로게이머 원모씨 - 징역 2년, 추징금 300만원 구형 프로게이머 마모씨 - 징역 1년 6개월 구형 축구선수 정모씨 - 징역 1년 6개월 구형 은행원 박모씨 - 징역 1년 구형 전직 프로게이머 정모씨 - 징역 1년 구형 전직 프로게이머 최모씨 - 징역 1년 구형 자영업 이모씨 - 징역 1년 구형 ◆ 6차 공판 - 10월 1일 오전 11시(변론 속개) 브로커 박모씨(구속) - 증거 조사 및 본인 심문→혐의 사실 모두 인정 프로게이머 원모씨 - 증거 조사 및 본인 심문→혐의 사실 모두 인정 프로게이머 마모씨 - 증거 조사 및 본인 심문→혐의 사실 모두 인정 축구선수 정모씨 - 증거 조사 및 본인 심문→혐의 사실 모두 인정 은행원 박모씨 - 증거 조사 및 본인 심문→혐의 사실 모두 인정 전직 프로게이머 정모씨 - 증거 조사 및 본인 심문→혐의 사실 모두 인정 전직 프로게이머 최모씨 - 증거 조사 및 본인 심문→혐의 사실 모두 인정 자영업 이모씨 - 증거 조사 및 본인 심문→혐의 사실 모두 인정 ◆ 7차 공판 - 10월 7일 오후 5시 브로커 박모씨(구속) - 사기 혐의 범죄 관련 조서 수정 프로게이머 원모씨 - 사기 혐의 범죄 관련 조서 수정 프로게이머 마모씨 - 사기 혐의 범죄 관련 조서 수정 축구선수 정모씨 - 사기 혐의 범죄 관련 조서 수정 은행원 박모씨 - 사기 혐의 범죄 관련 조서 수정 전직 프로게이머 정모씨 - 사기 혐의 범죄 관련 조서 수정 전직 프로게이머 최모씨 - 사기 혐의 범죄 관련 조서 수정 자영업 이모씨 - 사기 혐의 범죄 관련 조서 수정
Summary: 7th and the final part of the trial ended (with summations), all the remains is sentencing which will be on the 22nd at 10AM.
EDIT various things happened in the parts (accusing someone else, denying charges, etc, but in part 6 it says they admitted to all charges and 7, allocuted?
Compared to the huge black hole surrounding the current progaming circuit, the matchfixing scandal feels almost irrelevant now. Goddamnit, why did every one of those guys have to be so stupid. I know they are not getting payed all that much but they sure as hell don't need more trouble for themselves for measly money.
That was an awesome read. Thanks for providing the link.
"...and in the 6th trial held in 11AM of Oct. 1st, 2010, Savior's hearing of the illegal betting case was omitted due lack of proofs. Many communities are mocking this, saying that Savior is setting off the last fireworks in the dying SCBW scene."
I tried my best x_x I'm not that familiar with legal terms.
I don't know how it works in USA, but if you get probation for 2 years with a jail term of 1 year it means that you will not need to serve your term if you don't do anything wrong in the probationary period.
omg 1 year prison?! is this for real? that sucks.... mjy was the coolest progamer in the coolest progaming era >_<; bah.... why did he have to join the dark side
Really sucks, progamers just don't get paid enough. Not like Football where when you retire you have 10-20 million+ to sit on. I'm not worried for Saviors future though, it takes a certain kind of individual to become the best in a highly competitive RTS game, and those individuals can do achieve anything they want. Public anger, Disgrace, and Criminal record mostly effects average people.
On October 22 2010 13:45 LOcDowN wrote: What about Hwasin?
On October 22 2010 13:47 Trap wrote: Sorry to bother the Korean speakers, but did they say anything about Luxury / Upmagic / etc? Either way glad this is over.
On October 22 2010 14:24 endy wrote: What about the other progamers who were involved ? Hwasin + Hite players especially ?
On October 22 2010 14:38 zenMaster wrote: Hwasin got off with no punishment because of his good looks. Right?
The rest of the players have been resolved already. Most of them got off with fines some time ago. The 6th and 7th trials and the sentencing didn't apply to them.
On August 21 2010 02:07 Milkis wrote: go.go: 5 million won + additional 6 million won type-b: 5 million won + additional 6.5 million won Hwasin: 5 million won + additional 6 million won Upmagic: 3 million won + additional 3.5 million won Luxury: 5 million won + additional 7.5 million won Fake Yellow: 2 million won.
The sentence seems rather harsh, although I guess they want to make an example. Imagine a progamer actually going to jail o_O that would be so strange.
2 years of probation basically means that he will not go to prison for a year unless he screws up again sometime during that time. After 2 years this 1 year prison sentence expires.
TLDR: "He will not be going to prison unless he screws up again in the next 2 years"
On October 22 2010 16:24 Murderotica wrote: Uh so are you sure it's not like 2 years probation after 1 year of jail? It would have said "suspended sentence" in the ruling.
Yes I am sure. I just used the wording ("probation") as it was used earlier to prevent confusion. It would be closer to call it a sort of stay/suspension of sentence execution. The Korean word for it is 집행유예. Literally you are 유예 (suspending) the 집행 (execution).
On October 22 2010 16:24 Murderotica wrote: Uh so are you sure it's not like 2 years probation after 1 year of jail? It would have said "suspended sentence" in the ruling.
Yes I am sure. I just used the wording ("probation") as it was used earlier to prevent confusion. It would be closer to call it a sort of stay/suspension of sentence execution. The Korean word for it is 집행유예. Literally you are 유예 (suspending) the 집행 (execution).
Oh ok, cool thanks ^^;
EDIT: Are there many other trials for illegal betting? Are these charges to be expected from Korean courts (i.e. how strict are they on things like this usually)?
On October 22 2010 15:46 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: The sentence seems rather harsh, although I guess they want to make an example. Imagine a progamer Actually going to jail o_O that would be so strange.
On October 22 2010 15:46 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: The sentence seems rather harsh, although I guess they want to make an example. Imagine a progamer Actually going to jail o_O that would be so strange.
On March 12 2008 23:27 intrigue wrote: [...]do you honestly think savior is going to quit starcraft after it dies, be left with no options, and become a hopeless degenerate? a progamer already has on his resume something most people would die to have - proof of potential to succeed, proof of dedication and determination, and proof that they can survive in an intense, disciplined competitive environment.
I didn't read anything about the popularity of BW going down in Korea, was there a recent article about that? It just seems like a lot of shit hit it at once with the matchfixing scandal + KeSPA vs. GOMtv.
On October 22 2010 17:47 KinosJourney2 wrote: SaviOr doesn't really need a jail sentence, his life is ruined anyways
I just hope he comes back to SC2 and kicks ass again, i miss him :/
yeah... i also want to see him in sc2 and be such a baller. but i don't think esports higher ups (team managers/coaches/kespa etc) would still trust him. he still got his fans but it's going to be really hard to build his credibility again. this applies to other players involved, as well.
a tragic ending to savior's era instead of destryoing everyone in 2009, he destroyed himself in 2010
On October 22 2010 20:33 Brett wrote: Suspended jail terms and community work.. Sounds about right!
Good job Korean Courts.
Agreed! I'm glad he didn't end up in prison! Community service and probation seem pretty fair. Let's just hope he doesn't screw anything up within the next two years!
On October 22 2010 18:39 Boonbag wrote: Looking back to it now this shit seems the poison that killed bw in Korea.
Right. So, the Gretech/KeSPA business AND the release of SC2 had no effect on BW in Korea.
No I mean that BW scene lost of crapload of good players because of this and fucked up it's image. Gretech crap will sort out eventually and didn't prevent any channel yet from running leagues.
As inferior I think sc2 is to sc1, sc2 seems like the only hope of any renewal. All this seems to work just like pop bands really... audience wants always new...
On November 09 2010 23:31 therockmanxx wrote: Was Savior the master mind behind the scandal thats why recieve that sentence?? Who was the most benefited about this? I mean before they got caught
He was more like a middle man.
Re: Savior & SC2. He's banned from Kespa events, but that doesn't preclude him from GSL right? Savior can take Idra's spot as the most hated in SC2 once he gets out of prison. :DDDDD
On November 09 2010 23:31 therockmanxx wrote: Was Savior the master mind behind the scandal thats why recieve that sentence?? Who was the most benefited about this? I mean before they got caught
He was more like a middle man.
Re: Savior & SC2. He's banned from Kespa events, but that doesn't preclude him from GSL right? Savior can take Idra's spot as the most hated in SC2 once he gets out of prison. :DDDDD
No. GOM banned all of the players involved from their own tournaments as well, and he is on probation.
On November 09 2010 23:31 therockmanxx wrote: Was Savior the master mind behind the scandal thats why recieve that sentence?? Who was the most benefited about this? I mean before they got caught
He was more like a middle man.
Re: Savior & SC2. He's banned from Kespa events, but that doesn't preclude him from GSL right? Savior can take Idra's spot as the most hated in SC2 once he gets out of prison. :DDDDD
No. GOM banned all of the players involved from their own tournaments as well, and he is on probation.
On November 09 2010 23:31 therockmanxx wrote: Was Savior the master mind behind the scandal thats why recieve that sentence?? Who was the most benefited about this? I mean before they got caught
He was more like a middle man.
Re: Savior & SC2. He's banned from Kespa events, but that doesn't preclude him from GSL right? Savior can take Idra's spot as the most hated in SC2 once he gets out of prison. :DDDDD
No. GOM banned all of the players involved from their own tournaments as well, and he is on probation.
Damn, thats a real bummer. I was secretly hoping he'd make a comeback whenever he gets out.
Really though, who WOULDN'T watch him in his comeback games? If he was in the GSL, its not like he could rig his games anyways.
His career is far from over. Michael Vick was put in jail for dogfighting and now he's making millions playing for the eagles. Redemption isn't impossible, just hard.
On November 14 2010 13:56 darmousseh wrote: His career is far from over. Michael Vick was put in jail for dogfighting and now he's making millions playing for the eagles. Redemption isn't impossible, just hard.
No, his career's completely over. Unlike Vick savior isn't in any form to compete. He's looked painfully bad for about a year now, and 18 months away from the keyboard just makes that worse. On top of that he's been permanently banned from entering any pro gaming leagues (his pro gamer license was revoked). It would be like Michael Vick being banned from the NFL. I'm not sure if he's allowed in Sc2 competition but I doubt it
On November 14 2010 13:56 darmousseh wrote: His career is far from over. Michael Vick was put in jail for dogfighting and now he's making millions playing for the eagles. Redemption isn't impossible, just hard.
No, his career's completely over. Unlike Vick savior isn't in any form to compete. He's looked painfully bad for about a year now, and 18 months away from the keyboard just makes that worse. On top of that he's been permanently banned from entering any pro gaming leagues (his pro gamer license was revoked). It would be like Michael Vick being banned from the NFL. I'm not sure if he's allowed in Sc2 competition but I doubt it
I think if he were allowed to compete in SC2 he'd be a contender. I mean gsl1/2 winners were both like 40% zergs in BW.
EPT
. Example: If your 15 in korean age your 14 in western age.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dn7me.gif)
sAviOr
