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On September 19 2010 18:32 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 17:18 Lightwip wrote:On September 19 2010 16:43 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:On September 19 2010 15:06 Lightwip wrote:
Honestly, I think something like $20k fine and 1 year ban is harsh enough. This lot are adults and they know what they were getting into and they damaged the image of something I like a lot. They need to do jail time for this, you can't turn a blind eye to corruption and criminal activity. No matter how bad that is, it's not a crime. They can't be punished for that. They were involved in fraud and illegal gambling and such, that's all they need to be punished for. They are adults and are accountable for their own acts and under contract as well. Their acts have brought irreparable damage to their teams and their industry costing people lots of money. For example, ex-Chelsea player Adrian Mutu was sued by the club for doing heroin and Chelsea won. This is on a smaller scale but what they did was completely and utterly wrong and the principal is the same.
That's a civil issue, not a criminal one.
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On August 20 2010 23:04 Cofo wrote:
Yikes. Good luck breaking out of the contain this time, Savior.
n1 :D
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On September 19 2010 13:29 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 09:16 .risingdragoon wrote:On September 19 2010 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 14 2010 01:22 Numy wrote:On August 20 2010 22:58 JWD wrote:
18 months jail time? For illegal betting? Wow Koreans have different notions of justice than Americans. That seems impossibly harsh to me. No, people are just far too forgiving. If people were punished harshly instead of slapping their wrists, there would be far fewer problems in this world. if ultra repressive policies worked we would know it already. Look around and you'll notice that the only thing repression creates is more violence. Usa have ten time more people in jail than european countries and they are still far more violent and with much higher criminality rate. 18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane. If by repression you mean blatant socio-economic inequality built into the system. USA jail thing is capitalism at work all the way in the government. Taking inmates out of their districts and putting them into predominantly white districts increases the proportional representation for them, and therefore more federal money (and less for the original districts). That's why lotta bible-thumping places want prisons, the bigger walls the better, built in their jurisdiction. Also prison industries providing the amenities like food cloth etc. are big businesses, they have an incentive to keep the prison population at a high level. You're a smart guy, but stick to what you know, leave what you don't know the fuck alone. If you're self-motivated, read up on this. If you're a docile consumer, go watch The Wire. So you are saying, that keeping loads of people in prison is because of capitalism? Well of course it's got a lot to do with capitalism as you point out and to do with the gap between rich and poor. Now I'm just waiting for you to explain 'Why' America has a MUCH high crime rate, especially in regards to guns and violence in comparison with other countries. I thought Bif made a good point, although there was no need to take a snipe at the American system.
No, I'm saying it's happening on many more levels than just money. Obvious the game is set long before any of us were around, capitalism sees to it that certain status quo is maintained as long as average people will tolerate it.
An easy answer has to do with the availability of guns, and the cultural attitude toward violence as the acceptable means of getting even. Highly repressive laws are just a patch on an ongoing epidemic. Another reason is the common history b/w people in the US is not a healthy one where man feels responsible for another man. We're not a melting pot, maybe we were at the end of the 60s for a bit that gradually seesawed back. We're more like a tossed salad that's implicitly conforming to an Angelo majority.
I've read just about the same from Europe, particularly France. The law can't right this injustice cus it is happening at a micro-socio level that build up to a sense of bleakness and hopelessness, which prompts physical violence. It's the same thing with domestic violence. Many women will push your buttons till they boil you down to basically the last thing men have over them, physicality. That's when it happens. When you take everything the guy has, he has nothing to lose.
I remember one story I read about a little Chinese girl immigrating to Denmark decades ago. Back in those days danish kids were fascinated by her, and felt a sense of pride having her as a friend. I know that's not how it is anymore. This shift of focus from seeing the good aspect of a person to only the bad and the different is what creates the bad feelings b/w people.
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On September 19 2010 18:11 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 09:16 .risingdragoon wrote:On September 19 2010 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 14 2010 01:22 Numy wrote:On August 20 2010 22:58 JWD wrote:
18 months jail time? For illegal betting? Wow Koreans have different notions of justice than Americans. That seems impossibly harsh to me. No, people are just far too forgiving. If people were punished harshly instead of slapping their wrists, there would be far fewer problems in this world. if ultra repressive policies worked we would know it already. Look around and you'll notice that the only thing repression creates is more violence. Usa have ten time more people in jail than european countries and they are still far more violent and with much higher criminality rate. 18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane. If by repression you mean blatant socio-economic inequality built into the system. USA jail thing is capitalism at work all the way in the government. Taking inmates out of their districts and putting them into predominantly white districts increases the proportional representation for them, and therefore more federal money (and less for the original districts). That's why lotta bible-thumping places want prisons, the bigger walls the better, built in their jurisdiction. Also prison industries providing the amenities like food cloth etc. are big businesses, they have an incentive to keep the prison population at a high level. You're a smart guy, but stick to what you know, leave what you don't know the fuck alone. If you're self-motivated, read up on this. If you're a docile consumer, go watch The Wire. I fail to see where what you say contradict what I said. From what I know, the core reason why US have so many prisonners and so such repressive policies is that their prison are in a large part profit making activities of groups which spend millions dollars in lobbying / propaganda: http://prisonvalley.arte.tv/?lang=en (not for the docile brainless consumer) and I don't know the Wire. Now on topic, this idea that very harsh justice system reduces criminality is as simplist as thinking that death penalty reduces the amount of murder. We know since XIXth century that it is bullcrap. The fact is that by jailing people for long time for almost no reason, you create future criminals. Criminlaity is a social problem. You can't solve it with the stick only. And the bigger stick doesn't solve the problem better. That's all what I was saying.
There's no easy solution to a social problem.
Constitutional democracy is ill-equipped to deal with thorny problems that need long term solution, especially when increasingly people are starting to see their political position as the means of advancing their own interests.
To be semi-effective individually in American politics one has to be in the position + commit political suicide. How many people are willing to do that? The old saying is "people who care don't know, people who know don't care."
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On September 19 2010 21:05 rocketboy77 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 18:32 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:On September 19 2010 17:18 Lightwip wrote:On September 19 2010 16:43 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:On September 19 2010 15:06 Lightwip wrote:
Honestly, I think something like $20k fine and 1 year ban is harsh enough. This lot are adults and they know what they were getting into and they damaged the image of something I like a lot. They need to do jail time for this, you can't turn a blind eye to corruption and criminal activity. No matter how bad that is, it's not a crime. They can't be punished for that. They were involved in fraud and illegal gambling and such, that's all they need to be punished for. They are adults and are accountable for their own acts and under contract as well. Their acts have brought irreparable damage to their teams and their industry costing people lots of money. For example, ex-Chelsea player Adrian Mutu was sued by the club for doing heroin and Chelsea won. This is on a smaller scale but what they did was completely and utterly wrong and the principal is the same. That's a civil issue, not a criminal one.
I never wrote that it was.............I wrote they are accountable for their actions.
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savior almost completely destroyed eSports, the fans, players, and sponsors are pissed. Its not just about disgracing himself and his team, its about the money he cost Esports.
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On September 19 2010 22:41 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 21:05 rocketboy77 wrote:On September 19 2010 18:32 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:On September 19 2010 17:18 Lightwip wrote:On September 19 2010 16:43 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:On September 19 2010 15:06 Lightwip wrote:
Honestly, I think something like $20k fine and 1 year ban is harsh enough. This lot are adults and they know what they were getting into and they damaged the image of something I like a lot. They need to do jail time for this, you can't turn a blind eye to corruption and criminal activity. No matter how bad that is, it's not a crime. They can't be punished for that. They were involved in fraud and illegal gambling and such, that's all they need to be punished for. They are adults and are accountable for their own acts and under contract as well. Their acts have brought irreparable damage to their teams and their industry costing people lots of money. For example, ex-Chelsea player Adrian Mutu was sued by the club for doing heroin and Chelsea won. This is on a smaller scale but what they did was completely and utterly wrong and the principal is the same. That's a civil issue, not a criminal one. I never wrote that it was.............I wrote they are accountable for their actions.
That isn't a legal responsibility. You can't be punished for something not against the law, no matter how bad it is.
By the way
Poll: Do you still like Savior?Yes (77) 77% No (23) 23% 100 total votes Your vote: Do you still like Savior? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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United States10328 Posts
^ I think a "do you like justin" poll would get almost 100% dislike though
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On September 19 2010 22:40 .risingdragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 18:11 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 19 2010 09:16 .risingdragoon wrote:On September 19 2010 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 14 2010 01:22 Numy wrote:On August 20 2010 22:58 JWD wrote:
18 months jail time? For illegal betting? Wow Koreans have different notions of justice than Americans. That seems impossibly harsh to me. No, people are just far too forgiving. If people were punished harshly instead of slapping their wrists, there would be far fewer problems in this world. if ultra repressive policies worked we would know it already. Look around and you'll notice that the only thing repression creates is more violence. Usa have ten time more people in jail than european countries and they are still far more violent and with much higher criminality rate. 18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane. If by repression you mean blatant socio-economic inequality built into the system. USA jail thing is capitalism at work all the way in the government. Taking inmates out of their districts and putting them into predominantly white districts increases the proportional representation for them, and therefore more federal money (and less for the original districts). That's why lotta bible-thumping places want prisons, the bigger walls the better, built in their jurisdiction. Also prison industries providing the amenities like food cloth etc. are big businesses, they have an incentive to keep the prison population at a high level. You're a smart guy, but stick to what you know, leave what you don't know the fuck alone. If you're self-motivated, read up on this. If you're a docile consumer, go watch The Wire. I fail to see where what you say contradict what I said. From what I know, the core reason why US have so many prisonners and so such repressive policies is that their prison are in a large part profit making activities of groups which spend millions dollars in lobbying / propaganda: http://prisonvalley.arte.tv/?lang=en (not for the docile brainless consumer) and I don't know the Wire. Now on topic, this idea that very harsh justice system reduces criminality is as simplist as thinking that death penalty reduces the amount of murder. We know since XIXth century that it is bullcrap. The fact is that by jailing people for long time for almost no reason, you create future criminals. Criminlaity is a social problem. You can't solve it with the stick only. And the bigger stick doesn't solve the problem better. That's all what I was saying. There's no easy solution to a social problem. Constitutional democracy is ill-equipped to deal with thorny problems that need long term solution, especially when increasingly people are starting to see their political position as the means of advancing their own interests. To be semi-effective individually in American politics one has to be in the position + commit political suicide. How many people are willing to do that? The old saying is "people who care don't know, people who know don't care."
I think we agree on everything on this matter. Representative parlementarism is a broken system anyway a the age of mass medias and advanced globalized capitalism. I wouldn't call our political system "democracies" anymore at all since people don't have any choice and since government are not following at all the interest of the vast majority of the population.
Anyway. My point of departure was just to prove the equation [harsher justice = less criminality] wrong.
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On September 19 2010 20:37 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane. Yes, because illegal gambling and rigging professional matches where sponsors pour millions of dollars into the competition and tampering with such things to turn a profit is childish... Look, I want to believe Savior is innocent, but saying that this was a childish mistake is just cutting him way too much slack.
Nah, the point is that Savior's crime was about a couple of thousand dollars. And that Savior is clearly a nerd who has left childhood only to go to video game playing 14 hours a day, and that you can't expect the result to be brilliant in terms of maturity.
The kid has done something really stupid, broken his career, lost his reputation. I don't really see who will benefot him going a year and a half in jail and getting raped in this ass everyday by real tough gangster. That seems a bit overkill.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On September 20 2010 02:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 20:37 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:On September 19 2010 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane. Yes, because illegal gambling and rigging professional matches where sponsors pour millions of dollars into the competition and tampering with such things to turn a profit is childish... Look, I want to believe Savior is innocent, but saying that this was a childish mistake is just cutting him way too much slack. Nah, the point is that Savior's crime was about a couple of thousand dollars. And that Savior is clearly a nerd who has left childhood only to go to video game playing 14 hours a day, and that you can't expect the result to be brilliant in terms of maturity. The kid has done something really stupid, broken his career, lost his reputation. I don't really see who will benefot him going a year and a half in jail and getting raped in this ass everyday by real tough gangster. That seems a bit overkill.
his crime was over a million $ but ok.
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On September 20 2010 02:46 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 02:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 19 2010 20:37 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:On September 19 2010 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane. Yes, because illegal gambling and rigging professional matches where sponsors pour millions of dollars into the competition and tampering with such things to turn a profit is childish... Look, I want to believe Savior is innocent, but saying that this was a childish mistake is just cutting him way too much slack. Nah, the point is that Savior's crime was about a couple of thousand dollars. And that Savior is clearly a nerd who has left childhood only to go to video game playing 14 hours a day, and that you can't expect the result to be brilliant in terms of maturity. The kid has done something really stupid, broken his career, lost his reputation. I don't really see who will benefot him going a year and a half in jail and getting raped in this ass everyday by real tough gangster. That seems a bit overkill. his crime was over a million $ but ok.
that justifies the sentence ALOT
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does he keep the money? I'm curious now... because 18 months in prison for 1+ million dollars is not that bad LOL
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On September 20 2010 02:46 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 02:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 19 2010 20:37 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:On September 19 2010 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane. Yes, because illegal gambling and rigging professional matches where sponsors pour millions of dollars into the competition and tampering with such things to turn a profit is childish... Look, I want to believe Savior is innocent, but saying that this was a childish mistake is just cutting him way too much slack. Nah, the point is that Savior's crime was about a couple of thousand dollars. And that Savior is clearly a nerd who has left childhood only to go to video game playing 14 hours a day, and that you can't expect the result to be brilliant in terms of maturity. The kid has done something really stupid, broken his career, lost his reputation. I don't really see who will benefot him going a year and a half in jail and getting raped in this ass everyday by real tough gangster. That seems a bit overkill. his crime was over a million $ but ok.
Did he seriously made a million $ by dropping theses games? Last time I read about theses none were more than a few thousands. Maybe I am wrong.
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On August 20 2010 23:04 Cofo wrote:
Yikes. Good luck breaking out of the contain this time, Savior.
GOLD
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On September 20 2010 01:50 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2010 22:41 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:On September 19 2010 21:05 rocketboy77 wrote:On September 19 2010 18:32 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:On September 19 2010 17:18 Lightwip wrote:On September 19 2010 16:43 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:On September 19 2010 15:06 Lightwip wrote:
Honestly, I think something like $20k fine and 1 year ban is harsh enough. This lot are adults and they know what they were getting into and they damaged the image of something I like a lot. They need to do jail time for this, you can't turn a blind eye to corruption and criminal activity. No matter how bad that is, it's not a crime. They can't be punished for that. They were involved in fraud and illegal gambling and such, that's all they need to be punished for. They are adults and are accountable for their own acts and under contract as well. Their acts have brought irreparable damage to their teams and their industry costing people lots of money. For example, ex-Chelsea player Adrian Mutu was sued by the club for doing heroin and Chelsea won. This is on a smaller scale but what they did was completely and utterly wrong and the principal is the same. That's a civil issue, not a criminal one. I never wrote that it was.............I wrote they are accountable for their actions. That isn't a legal responsibility. You can't be punished for something not against the law, no matter how bad it is. By the way Poll: Do you still like Savior?Yes (77) 77% No (23) 23% 100 total votes Your vote: Do you still like Savior? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Where is the option "I never liked him to begin with"??
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To be honest, Savior should (and must) go to jail for this. Apart from gambling being illegal in South Korea, there's the issue of defrauding people through the match-fixing and the issue of being a ring-leader/middle-man from his involvement in match-fixing. Even though it's almost a proven fact that becoming a pro-gamer does take away from the potential maturity levels as well as the life experience outside of gaming, it's no excuse saying that this is a "childish crime". (especially if the high 6-figure to low 7-figure USD money amount is correct)
Though, I'm thankful that e-Sports has managed to come out of this potential death-bed reasonably unharmed. I guess I see e-Sports having the same sort of gentlemanly ethos* in the foundations as Cricket did (Chess is analogous to this as well), and I don't enjoy seeing the 'face' of the game being tarnished. 
*I do know that there is BM in e-Sports though, and it usually has it's place when done with non-douchery.
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On September 20 2010 02:46 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 02:36 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 19 2010 20:37 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:On September 19 2010 07:29 Biff The Understudy wrote:18month for a kid who has already broken his life by ding childish stupid thing IS insane. Yes, because illegal gambling and rigging professional matches where sponsors pour millions of dollars into the competition and tampering with such things to turn a profit is childish... Look, I want to believe Savior is innocent, but saying that this was a childish mistake is just cutting him way too much slack. Nah, the point is that Savior's crime was about a couple of thousand dollars. And that Savior is clearly a nerd who has left childhood only to go to video game playing 14 hours a day, and that you can't expect the result to be brilliant in terms of maturity. The kid has done something really stupid, broken his career, lost his reputation. I don't really see who will benefot him going a year and a half in jail and getting raped in this ass everyday by real tough gangster. That seems a bit overkill. his crime was over a million $ but ok.
Don't you mean "over a million won?" The news article released to us said the figure was around 30 million won per match (which afaik is about 30 thousand dollars).
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Cheating me a fellow starcraft vod viewer is a serious crime. All the time I wasted watching Savior and thinking the match was a fair competitive battle.
18 months is necessary for him to get the full treatment. I hope he gets bum poked multiple times in prison.
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On September 20 2010 04:26 niteReloaded wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2010 23:04 Cofo wrote:
Yikes. Good luck breaking out of the contain this time, Savior. GOLD
Oh yeah :D
Well, the issue is money. "Digital" money in a way as it's not been like bankrobbing with physical values involved, which makes it more "touchable" and thus requires more criminal intention than "digital" scamming. Doing some mouse clicks doesn't require much criminal energy even if it's against law and ethics, while breaking a building or safe does. Also it's not like it "feels" like damaging someone, other than taking banknotes from someone else's possession.
As I rather measure guilt in intentions and reasons, I've no idea what judgement would be suitable. Might've been needless greed which would deserve a high punishment imo, or it might've been the thought "let's create some money out of nowhere" which can be an easily done mistake and shouldn't be punished too hard as the shock of trial etc. most likely teaches him the lesson anyways.. Just two examples.
It "feels" to me that it's been more likely a version without much criminal intent in it, but I might be wrong.
In general I feel like that there is a disbalance between punishments on thievery/damaging or stealing items that can be replaced and violent crimes.
One example a german speaker gave (under german laws of course):
"Beating up a policemen can get you in jail for two years. Demolishing his car can get you in jail for five years."
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EPT
