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How Protoss can beat Flash - Page 13

Forum Index > BW General
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Frolossus
Profile Joined February 2010
United States4779 Posts
June 04 2010 00:29 GMT
#241
you guys keep talking about protoss + tanks after the mind control but what about vultures and mines?
mines could stop the tanks from going offensive altogether
JohannesH
Profile Joined September 2009
Finland1364 Posts
June 04 2010 00:42 GMT
#242
On May 18 2010 03:15 Loffeman wrote:
Alwasy wanted to see a Protoss mind control a vesse and then EMP the Terran's other vessels =)

feedbacjing seems easier
If you have to ask, you don't know.
seRapH
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9756 Posts
June 04 2010 00:46 GMT
#243
On June 04 2010 09:29 Frolossus wrote:
you guys keep talking about protoss + tanks after the mind control but what about vultures and mines?
mines could stop the tanks from going offensive altogether


have you played tvt? tanks/golis a-moved kill mines. seriously.
boomer hands
Pliers
Profile Joined October 2008
Canada42 Posts
June 04 2010 01:10 GMT
#244
Really glad to see this thread bumped =)

shalafi
Profile Joined July 2008
394 Posts
June 04 2010 01:13 GMT
#245
On June 04 2010 09:46 majesty.k)seRapH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2010 09:29 Frolossus wrote:
you guys keep talking about protoss + tanks after the mind control but what about vultures and mines?
mines could stop the tanks from going offensive altogether


have you played tvt? tanks/golis a-moved kill mines. seriously.


Yeah, all instant-shooting units have good chances of killing mines.

For example, Hydras kill them well, but they're so weak and small that a single mistake can cost you 8 hydras.
iSTime
Profile Joined November 2006
1579 Posts
June 04 2010 01:30 GMT
#246
Or you could just tech all the way up to BCs like that epic game from a long time ago on Jim Raynor's Memory or whatever. I think it was in the first set of pimpest plays.
www.infinityseven.net
SoManyDeadLings
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada255 Posts
June 04 2010 01:37 GMT
#247
I've been having fun with this build on iccup and random east UMS obs games, extremely fun and surprisingly easy to recall the scvs.

Only works against people 1-2 ranks lower tho X_X

Good terrans just push right before my tanks with siege roll out.
wsrgry
ymir233
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States8275 Posts
June 04 2010 02:55 GMT
#248
Besides like DA mind control, would Corsair DWeb + HT work against the whole "let's shove tanks/vultures down your throat" strategy? (DWeb around your army when vultures come, on tanks when they siege) I mean, there's no point for the opponent to mass up goliaths like for carriers, and assuming that you can dodge goliaths with sairs like you do with arbiters (except faster >_____>) and attack them with goons, you should be able to shut down tanks and such pretty easily, and with DWeb you can still storm the tanks I think...
Come motivate me to be cynical about animus at http://infinityandone.blogspot.com/ // Stork proxy gates are beautiful.
seRapH
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9756 Posts
June 04 2010 03:00 GMT
#249
On June 04 2010 11:55 ymir233 wrote:
Besides like DA mind control, would Corsair DWeb + HT work against the whole "let's shove tanks/vultures down your throat" strategy? (DWeb around your army when vultures come, on tanks when they siege) I mean, there's no point for the opponent to mass up goliaths like for carriers, and assuming that you can dodge goliaths with sairs like you do with arbiters (except faster >_____>) and attack them with goons, you should be able to shut down tanks and such pretty easily, and with DWeb you can still storm the tanks I think...


the problem with sair/goon is that its difficult to transition both in and out of. the stargates don't come cheap, dweb is 125 energy, and corsairs cost 100 gas each. the sheer number of dwebs you'll need to effectively deal with the death terran push means that you'll need to start building up corsairs very early, and there'll be massive timing windows where the terran can basically destroy you every time. it's been tried, it's worked for a bit, and not anymore
boomer hands
perfectflaw72
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada94 Posts
June 04 2010 03:07 GMT
#250
i can see this happening but how does this effect the game...
B.net is down :( but Summers UP :D
AaronEB
Profile Joined May 2010
United States76 Posts
June 04 2010 03:43 GMT
#251
I noticed that most of the top players are either Terran or Zerg. Anyone have any information about this?
I'm pretty sure that if you a drink for everything Day[9] says bejewjaler and baller you will get alcohol poisoning.
endy
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Switzerland8970 Posts
June 04 2010 04:18 GMT
#252
On June 04 2010 12:43 AaronEB wrote:
I noticed that most of the top players are either Terran or Zerg. Anyone have any information about this?


Top protoss players are slumping. Kal is a good player but he is a choker and will never go further than semis. Movie went to OSL finals but sucks imo.
ॐ
Subversive
Profile Joined October 2009
Australia2229 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-04 04:29:42
June 04 2010 04:23 GMT
#253
Sorry OP I don't believe this is feasible. I think Flash will timing attack before you get your tanks out. And even if you manage to get them out you're up again 3-3 tanks v 0-0 tanks.

Posts that I agree with:

On May 13 2010 02:57 Djabanete wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Last season:
1. Flash rolls all zerg players (Effort, Calm, Zero, Jaedong in BoX's, am I missing anyone?)
2. People wonder how zerg can ever defeat Flash.
3. Jaedong does it.

This season:

1. Flash rolls all protoss players (all 6 dragons on kill list, Pure gets swatted)
2. People wonder how protoss can ever defeat Flash.
3. ???

Really, someone just needs to step it up, and I'm 99% sure that when they do, it won't involve mind control.

On May 13 2010 02:23 Mekexi wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I appreciate OP's effort, but I think there is much simplier and stronger answer:

+ Show Spoiler +
USE THOSE RECALLS SMARTER, GODDAMN IT!!

Seriously, Protoss players are like:
- Recall 15-20 units into Terran main.
- Kill Armory + some Vultures.
- DIE.

Why not...:

...Recall to defend distant bases?
...Recall Speedlots over Terran sieged army?
...Recall into enemy main -> kill Armories -> Recall back to safety?
...Recall + Stasis-at-choke combo?

Few examples were already set, but I feel those techniques are criminally underused.

On May 13 2010 10:30 dhe95 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
If it takes flash such a long time to build up his tank count to 3-3 200/200, why are you making it seem like you won't take just as long? You have 1 cc, you need to build mass scvs in order to keep up with all the supply depot + factory production, and by then, it'll still take ages for tank ups to finish, in which you should be dead already. a couple of 0-0 tanks are just like adding some metal dragoons into your army.

On May 13 2010 13:23 YPang wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
protoss needs to call in the mothership.

On May 14 2010 03:18 StylishVODs wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I think toss in general needs to toss in some 2base "bulldog" play into the equation in between their 12nexuses. Flash oftens seems to get his third up regardless of seeing protoss taking a third or not lately... But he's scouting really well with vultures so I'm not sure it'll work...

On May 14 2010 14:10 Scarecrow wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Should go for more of a strategic play like (P)Reach or (P)Nal_rA. The macrobots just aren't cutting it cause they're trying to beat (T)Flash at his own game and he also outmicro's them. (P)Stork is the only current toss with a decent chance imo.

On May 18 2010 02:39 StylishVODs wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
The way to consistantly beat flash is obviously to play better than him. A strategy like snow used might work a few times but remember that Flash is learning aswell.
As long as you want to consistantly beat him, a strategy will not be enough.


Also OP what is your current iccup rank? I'm not trying to insult you, I am just wondering because it seems this could only work at the lower levels, as SoManyDeadLings suggested. (Actually he said it only worked against opponents 2 levels or more lower than him. But same idea).
#1 Great fan ~ // Khan // FlaSh // JangBi // EffOrt //
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
June 04 2010 04:28 GMT
#254
Maybe dweb is the key? pretty general statement but that's certainly something no toss has tried in ages in late, late game vs flash.
Sup
FraCuS
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1072 Posts
June 04 2010 04:29 GMT
#255
heart pylons at the entrance of flash's 1st natural. that should distract him to get the DA to MC :D
Apink/Girl's Day/miss A/IU/Crayon Pop/Sistar/Exo K :D l Kpop and Kdrama Enthusiast
funnybananaman
Profile Joined April 2009
United States830 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-04 04:37:21
June 04 2010 04:36 GMT
#256
I mean... mayybeee? Fash doesn't turtle so hard that tosses have infinite minerals/gas but just can't win because of the 200/200 cap, so i don't know if they'd have enough resources to build up an effective terran army as well. mind control would be cool to watch regardless though.

What protoss really need to stop doing is 12 nexing every game and start doing more bulldog/ fast reaver/ proxy gates/ elevator rush/ reaver and dt drop off 1 base like kal did to forgg (rofl) kind of builds. The macro cheese obviously isn't working at all so i think this is a viable course of action

The real answer though is that Flash is just plain better than everyone else though, and he wont lose with any kind of regularity until someone emerges that is as good as him. People are forgetting that Better than everyone else means BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE!! The better player almost always beats the worse player unless he's only a little bit better. and Flash is a lot better than everyone else.
Gtks
Profile Joined March 2010
Greece135 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-04 12:50:20
June 04 2010 10:35 GMT
#257
All you need to see the Snow vs Much game.

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/41785_Much_vs_Snow/vod

Snow lost a nexus the beggin but managed to save his probs in the end he won the game how ?
He managed to creat the "lost into many click effect" our no 1 objective to Much by using psy storm for the probs in 2 expansions, it is very effective.

He also fake an attact to the 13:00 o clock expansion and the funny was Much "eat it up" and send all of his forces there then real attact came from behind in his main base by the time to return and defent was too late, you will see Much smiling also heheh. The timed attact came at the right momend "a good time for an attact" everthing good 10nx Snow.

Also in here http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTc4MDI1NzMy.html you will see Snow again to using all technics and completes all the objectives i wrote above with different ways. In hear the funny part is Snow looses his main nexus but he won the game 10nx again Snow. The Drama 'queen' in here is kwanro, see my first post for details.

If the Objectives are completed you have great chance to win the game always trust me.
Thessaloniki - Greece
Garrl
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Scotland1972 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-04 10:50:22
June 04 2010 10:38 GMT
#258
On June 04 2010 13:28 avilo wrote:
Maybe dweb is the key? pretty general statement but that's certainly something no toss has tried in ages in late, late game vs flash.


Dweb would be crazy, if you can get enough sairs and have the APM to split them to avoid getting 20 sairs EMP'd. Exploit the Terran mech's lack of mobillity even more.
Ramsing
Profile Joined July 2007
Canada233 Posts
June 04 2010 11:04 GMT
#259
Let's just pretend that Flash didn't smack you down before you could get some tanks up and you got some set up. Big whoop. You're still using 0-0 tanks vs 3-2 tanks and are liable to get stomped all over.
Invictus
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Singapore2697 Posts
June 04 2010 11:46 GMT
#260
I think the main point it to revisit hallucination, a spell that i think is underused. Since 200/200 toss armies lose out to 200/200 terran mech balls, then hallucination would help to increase the amount of units that you have, since ht's would most probably be killed by siege splash. This is just the most basic use of hallucination - as a meat shield.

The second part of hallucination is to fake a tech switch. Notice how many tosses seem to die badly to flash when they do the transition from ground units to carriers? The Snow game vs Flash game was where i based the idea from, however Snow had managed to chalk up such a huge advantage that the switch around was feasible. He built 3( or 4-5) carriers to fake flash into thinking that carriers are coming and thus spent his resources making goliaths to have a ground army roll his army over. However, in this case, hallucination to fake a carrier switch. To trick Terrans, the toss should hide out most of his ground army and do a sort a preparation to a full carrier switch. This would definitely get the terran off guard

also the hts that has no energy should stay about the front lines as tho they are goin to storm. This would waste the emps of the scv
Lee Jaedong Fighting!
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