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[MSL Spoiler] His Overwhelming Advantage - Page 8
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + wtf are you talking about | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On January 24 2010 07:01 checo wrote: I have no idea how this game works. Cool. | ||
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deL
Australia5540 Posts
On January 24 2010 02:58 G.s)NarutO wrote: Thats the point exactly, it would have depressed Jaedong, because he just earned that game and had an insane advantage. On a map which is heavily Terran favored. I disagree and thing that it would not have rattled jaedong so much as it's generally par for the course I imagine. JaeDong would be like OK I was ahead but this stupid power outage happened so fair enough we have to replay it. | ||
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Romantic
United States1844 Posts
Economically JD was doing much, much better and they gave Flash the win for that. | ||
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Lazzarus
Faroe Islands114 Posts
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Insight
19 Posts
number of games according to tl statistics: match point: TvZ: 10-6 ultimatum: TvZ: 6-3 anyone who knows ANYTHING AT ALL about statistics knows that you need a good sample for statistics to be valid source of information, 16 and 9 games is ridiculously small sample, it could've been 90% either way depending on which players happened to play for each race match point is in my opinion zerg favored map because of architecture around mains and nats that make muta harass way more effective then it is on other maps. most tvz games I've seen on it were 2 hatch muta openings and terrans struggling to hold it off, specially at nat. there's also more space behind main mineral line in compare to other maps, space which is hard to maneuver around with mnm cause of mineral line itself and you can't shoot from between cc and minerals (not with enough marines anyway) so you can take advantage of it with mutas and snipe few extra scvs then you normally would have. there are also plenty of ridges everywhere for mutas to combat mnm force in the field if terran decides to fight muta harass by being aggressive. we've seen flash losing to some zerg whose name I can't remember earlier this season for this very reason. he went 2 hatch mutas and "abused" map architecture to gain advantage, and then just played a standard game after that, riding the advantage gained from said map flaw ultimatum is also zerg favored in my opinion because of island expansions. zerg has much better mobility then terran as far as island hopping goes because of nydus canals and scourge. now add the fact there are 2 island expos right next to each main and you get exactly what happened in game 2. jaedong had fantastic build to take advantage of this but he made a huge mistake by using guardians offensively instead of defensively. had he used guardians to defend his 4 expos, all of them would've been virtually indestructible and you'd see the unstoppable flood of ultra/ling cover the map just as the upgrades kick in even tho I'm flash fan, jaedong outplayed him today, winning metagame in every set (with the exception of above mentioned mistake in g2) and I'm fairly sure he would've won the series even if blackout didn't occur | ||
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Lazzarus
Faroe Islands114 Posts
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vOddy
Sweden402 Posts
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
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HeartOfTofu
United States308 Posts
On January 24 2010 07:01 checo wrote: Flash just need gas for vessels he never intend to get tanks he never did so cut the crap on the gas count plz Yes, gas is needed for Vessels and he was running out of gas without many Vessels left. SK Terran without a large Vessel count = crap. You either need a lot of Vessels or some Vessels with Tanks. Flash had neither.. If he had like 12 Vessels or so floating around, I might be inclined to agree with you that the gas difference might be less of a factor, but that's not the case. On January 24 2010 07:01 checo wrote: flash is able to mas huge armys from 1-2 bases and thats what he was doing hir lol, Yes, but he lost most of that army and his resources were quickly running out whereas JD was making more bases. From an economic standpoint, Flash was at a huge disadvantage. Within a few minutes, Flash would have been macroing from 1 base while JD would have been macroing from numerous bases. It's just a numbers game at that point. On January 24 2010 07:01 checo wrote: he was about to take JD base out.. 2 ultras that survive... with how many hp less than 50??? 3 vessels with less than 75 energy??? what is a couple of those were at 73-71energy??? If you actually see, Flash was retreating and JD was reinforcing his base with more Ultras and Zerglings before the blackout. With Dark Swarm coming from the 2 Defilers he had at the base right before the blackout, it doesn't matter if an Ultra has 10HP, you can't kill it with Marines.. There's no way Flash could have easily taken out JD's base and if you can honestly say that after watching the VOD again up to the point of the blackout, you're delusional.. On January 24 2010 07:01 checo wrote: Flash wasn't getting hir third up he had it up... With his other bases quickly running out of resources while JD still had numerous bases to mine from, none of which were in any danger. On January 24 2010 07:01 checo wrote: Plz stop making maybes... your not sure as no one is because theres no fucking replay!!! It seems you're the one making the "maybes" here. Most of the others in this thread are actually looking at the objective evidence as displayed in the VOD.. On January 24 2010 07:01 checo wrote: The regame was the corret choice we all know it, many said that JD practice more for that match or that use a special build, who cares? the match wasn't over that was the map to play rematch was the correct choice. The match was pretty much over at the point that Flash lost all those units and couldn't break JD's 7 o'clock base. Could you argue for a replay? Sure, but it's not necessarily the correct choice. Starting the game over would effectively void the fact that Flash was losing the game by a good margin first time around and give him another chance. While neither situation is "fair", the correct one in my opinion would be the one that takes into account all the events that have actually occurred so long as a reasonable conclusion could be drawn from those events. In this scenario, it's reasonable to assume given the situation of both players that JD had a clear advantage and would have most likely won. We're not talking about a game that just started or one where both sides still had massive blobs yet to engage eachother. This game was pretty close to the end point and if you look at it calmly and objectively rather in the heat of the moment, you can see that. | ||
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2minutevictory
United States89 Posts
it would've taken a miracle, flash had about 2 vessels, a tiny marine medic count, no tanks/mines, and jaedong was on 4 gas ( about to get 5). All he needed to do was attack the 3rd base that couldn't have been defended considering how many units flash had and it would be game. If flash was actually on 3 bases the game would be 55%jaedong/45% flash, but he wasn't. his main was completely mined out, and his nat only had about 100~300 minerals. If flash had 6+ vessels mines surrounding his 3rd, and a secure fourth about to come up then he would have a good chance of winning, but when it blacked out flash had no where near that. No one should be debating who was winning that game or how close it was. imo jaedong destroyed and dominated flash from a bad position. we can only blame MBC for having a power outage during a game that could've been an excellent match with a clear ending. | ||
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TeWy
France714 Posts
You know why ? Because people do MISTAKES all the time, this is what makes the atmosphere epic, they're humans, they throw away games they should theoretically win. This is how a supposedly win game for a player in Chess end up as a draw, this is how Flash lost his previous advantage. | ||
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Pufftrees
2449 Posts
And about game 4, I don't think Flash was "not trying" or out of it. He came in with the 7 rax and Jaedong's 9 pool was perfect, you saw Flash get shaken when he first see's the build during the game. Flash's window to put pressure on the nat had sunken's timed just right and Flash was indecisive. Flash IS human, after seeing that you know Jae had the psychological edge and flash new it was an elimination game and may have felt a little extra pressure and just fell to the a true master in Jaedong. Regardless of the drama, I am trying to focus how impressed I am with Jaedong and how amazing his play and strategies were. He had the BETTER preparation than Flash clearly (flash focused on other things obviously) and I would never bet against Jaedong in a best of 5 when he has only it to focus on. | ||
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Zack1900
United States211 Posts
I think it should have extended to a best of 7 match up. Neither player was prepared for that and the power outage would have had a lesser effect on the series. They should have been given a chance to talk to each other to decide on the maps that would be played and in what order. If they could not agree on what maps they wanted then the maps should have been decided on by a third party. Seems like the fairest way in my book. | ||
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Ogawa
Brazil40 Posts
Kespa makes them replay = Jaedong fans raging EITHER way, not everyone is happy... Maybe if they interview Flash about that game, and if he says he would lose, everyone would shut up about this decision... | ||
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Malinor
Germany4733 Posts
On January 24 2010 08:27 Ogawa wrote: Kespa gives win to Jaedong = Flash fans raging Kespa makes them replay = Jaedong fans raging EITHER way, not everyone is happy... Maybe if they interview Flash about that game, and if he says he would lose, everyone would shut up about this decision... Flash has been a very honest guy in his interviews lately. If he says that he had a fighting chance after evaluating the VOD, I would actually believe him. I don't think that he will say that however. And we don't even know if there is an interview coming up anytime soon. | ||
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TeWy
France714 Posts
On January 24 2010 08:27 Ogawa wrote: Kespa gives win to Jaedong = Flash fans raging Kespa makes them replay = Jaedong fans raging EITHER way, not everyone is happy... Maybe if they interview Flash about that game, and if he says he would lose, everyone would shut up about this decision... Everybody knows that he was in a bad position, although saying that he "would lose" means that there was a 0% probabilitie that he could made a comeback and win. Have you ever hord the expression "It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings" ? It applies to all sports, why not e-sports ? | ||
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HeartOfTofu
United States308 Posts
On January 24 2010 08:16 TeWy wrote: This decision illustrates the current immatury of the e-sports scene, no referee could even think at giving a win in Chess based on superior positioning, or give it to a Soccer team because it was leading 2-0 15 mins before the end of the game. You know why ? Because people do MISTAKES all the time, this is what makes the atmosphere epic, they're humans, they throw away games they should theoretically win. This is how a supposedly win game for a player in Chess end up as a draw, this is how Flash lost his previous advantage. Yet in some other professional sports such as Baseball, teams that hold a clear advantage after a certain point in the game are given the win in the case of a rain out or some other circumstance where the game can no longer continue. The chess match argument doesn't apply because a chess game can always EASILY be recreated at the exact point it was cut off. A game of Starcraft cannot without some sort of save file. I don't think the decision illustrates immaturity on the part of eSports at all unless you also consider Major League Baseball to be an immature sport... Different sports have different ways of dealing with problems. If there's anything that would represent immaturity in eSports to me, it would be the lack of preparation (not having a UPS) and allowing the ensuing tirade from KT to go on to delay the event. | ||
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Dandy4
United States493 Posts
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TeWy
France714 Posts
On January 24 2010 08:41 HeartOfTofu wrote: Yet in some other professional sports such as Baseball, teams that hold a clear advantage after a certain point in the game are given the win in the case of a rain out or some other circumstance where the game can no longer continue. The chess match argument doesn't apply because a chess game can always EASILY be recreated at the exact point it was cut off. A game of Starcraft cannot without some sort of save file. I don't think the decision illustrates immaturity on the part of eSports at all unless you also consider Major League Baseball to be an immature sport... Different sports have different ways of dealing with problems. If there's anything that would represent immaturity in eSports to me, it would be the lack of preparation (not having a UPS) and allowing the ensuing tirade from KT to go on to delay the event. Could you please point out some examples of that Baseball thing ? I would like to know what they consider to be a "clear advantage". | ||
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