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endGame
United States394 Posts
On January 25 2010 08:44 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: But of course when Flash beat Jaedong in the OSL it was solid proof for all the fanboys that he totally owns Jaedong and is best player ever. No. Neither case is solid evidence. That would be inconsistent, now wouldn't it  | ||
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StarcraftMan
Canada507 Posts
On January 25 2010 08:36 LostWraithSC wrote: Selig's opinion is not the official rulebook of the MLB. Games can be delayed in baseball because they can resume at the same score as before, and that's already disregarding the stamina and other factors. The official rule of the MLB states that games are awarded to the winning team after the fifth inning if the game must stop. We cannot resume the starcraft game even if its the finals of the series to end all series. By almost all rules of sports, not just baseball, when you absolutely cannot resume a match at a different time, the game is called at its current score with a rematch completely out of the question. But commissioner Selig has the good sense to overrule the official rulebook with respect to the World Series. FYI, the commissioner is above the rulebook. What I think you fail to understand is that Selig and MLB are willing to follow the rulebook in the regular season because of scheduling reasons, and because there are 161 other games that a team can makeup for. Losing 1 game in a regular season to a rainout isn't such a big deal - unless it has playoff implications. The point is, Selig is aware that when there are stakes at risk such as the World Series, he will overrule the playbook and force the match to finish at a later date, rather than "gifting" a win to the team leading when the game was stopped. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 25 2010 08:44 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: But of course when Flash beat Jaedong in the OSL it was solid proof for all the fanboys that he totally owns Jaedong and is best player ever. +1 its so true and even then even though jaedong lost there was only 1 standard game which he lost yet people auto assumed flash is just soo much better then jd because of that one game its why I am very happy Jaedong won the MSL (and was going to win game 3 anyway) | ||
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LostWraithSC
United States111 Posts
On January 25 2010 10:23 StarcraftMan wrote: But commissioner Selig has the good sense to overrule the official rulebook with respect to the World Series. FYI, the commissioner is above the rulebook. What I think you fail to understand is that Selig and MLB are willing to follow the rulebook in the regular season because of scheduling reasons, and because there are 161 other games that a team can makeup for. Losing 1 game in a regular season to a rainout isn't such a big deal - unless it has playoff implications. The point is, Selig is aware that when there are stakes at risk such as the World Series, he will overrule the playbook and force the match to finish at a later date, rather than "gifting" a win to the team leading when the game was stopped. Well Kespa's known for following the rulebook extremely strictly, sometimes unreasonably so. However, the advantage was significant enough that it would've been unreasonable for the kespa officials to overrule the rulebook on the spot. Kespa agreed that the advantage is very significant and not just a hair's width, which is why they didn't overrule the normal convention. If the July vs. Bisu game was the game 5 of OSL finals, they still would've given July the win. Also, if Selig did not get lucky with a tied game in the sixth, he still would've CONTINUED the game from where it was left off in a rain delay. Kespa does not have an option to continue the starcraft game. The alternative for selig was a continuation while the alternative for kespa is a rematch from scratch. Selig made a judgment call and the judgment call was be very different for kespa. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1597 Posts
IMO he dominated flash in all of the games and made one massive mistake in game 2, but he is not there yet. To Map Statistics: 1. The amount of games played on these maps did not have enough matches in their history to be confirmed bais. 2. The maps have not been played enough for anyone to have an optimal game plan. XX)For all we know in the coming months these maps will even out or even lean to zerg favor. To Best Player Of All Time Obviously at the moment Flash and Jaedong are currently the top two players of the sport no matter who is above who (JD above flash currently), but they have not met enough times in my opinion to consider one the victor. This can only be decided when SCBW is over. Jaedong has much more time invested in gaming. Jaedong has beaten him perviously, but when he was newer to the game and did not currently play at his same level. This tourney is somewhat fluked, but in the end from the way JD was playing I believe the end was going to be 3-1 regardless. The one who wins the next few individual leagues or carries their team over each others will solidly cement one or the other as the greatest player of all time because after all that is done this game is over and one will come out victorious. Btw contrats to JD after getting rolled by flash to come back and take this league from him. Seriously I had a total reverse guess of the final score, and he outplayed him. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8552 Posts
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checo
Mexico1364 Posts
On January 24 2010 07:34 HeartOfTofu wrote: Yes, gas is needed for Vessels and he was running out of gas without many Vessels left. SK Terran without a large Vessel count = crap. You either need a lot of Vessels or some Vessels with Tanks. Flash had neither.. If he had like 12 Vessels or so floating around, I might be inclined to agree with you that the gas difference might be less of a factor, but that's not the case. Yes, but he lost most of that army and his resources were quickly running out whereas JD was making more bases. From an economic standpoint, Flash was at a huge disadvantage. Within a few minutes, Flash would have been macroing from 1 base while JD would have been macroing from numerous bases. It's just a numbers game at that point. If you actually see, Flash was retreating and JD was reinforcing his base with more Ultras and Zerglings before the blackout. With Dark Swarm coming from the 2 Defilers he had at the base right before the blackout, it doesn't matter if an Ultra has 10HP, you can't kill it with Marines.. There's no way Flash could have easily taken out JD's base and if you can honestly say that after watching the VOD again up to the point of the blackout, you're delusional.. With his other bases quickly running out of resources while JD still had numerous bases to mine from, none of which were in any danger. It seems you're the one making the "maybes" here. Most of the others in this thread are actually looking at the objective evidence as displayed in the VOD.. The match was pretty much over at the point that Flash lost all those units and couldn't break JD's 7 o'clock base. Could you argue for a replay? Sure, but it's not necessarily the correct choice. Starting the game over would effectively void the fact that Flash was losing the game by a good margin first time around and give him another chance. While neither situation is "fair", the correct one in my opinion would be the one that takes into account all the events that have actually occurred so long as a reasonable conclusion could be drawn from those events. In this scenario, it's reasonable to assume given the situation of both players that JD had a clear advantage and would have most likely won. We're not talking about a game that just started or one where both sides still had massive blobs yet to engage eachother. This game was pretty close to the end point and if you look at it calmly and objectively rather in the heat of the moment, you can see that. Maybes where only to point the ones in the OP... LOL??? Yay, finaly you accept he had his third up. I don't see ultras reinforments coming or flash retriting lol.... 3-4 vessels were alive and more coming from 2 port a few more mins in the game and you have your vessels. A vod is like a dude with ear divice to call on a gunshot that he listen.... Replay was the correct choice, the most fair if you like | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
On January 24 2010 19:24 FireGuyX wrote: Extremely behind? Yet Flash for about 70% of the game had a pretty good lead winning some battles and taking out at least 3 hatcheries. Yes Flash was behind economically, but his third was about to be up and was ahead in tech compared to Jaedong. As for my post being garbage, no more then yours, and you know that. Also Jaedong hardly had any drones mining in either of his expansions. You can dissect and analyze this match all you want, but you're not completely right and neither is KeSpa. Wow, you have no idea what you're talking about. | ||
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Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
I'd really like to see those who did not think it was over for Flash to also post their iccup ranks. 100% sure we'd get a bunch of D- level nit wits. You can't be as strategically retarded / clueless as they are and manage to win at anything more than 3v3 BGH games. They make as much of a fool of themselves when they post in this thread as they do when they post in the Strategy forums. Enough already. | ||
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
On January 25 2010 14:49 Tien wrote: This discussion is pretty much over. I'd really like to see those who did not think it was over for Flash to also post their iccup ranks. 100% sure we'd get a bunch of D- level nit wits. You can't be as strategically retarded / clueless as they are and manage to win at anything more than 3v3 BGH games. They make as much of a fool of themselves when they post in this thread as they do when they post in the Strategy forums. Enough already. On January 23 2010 19:26 IdrA wrote: jd had a massive advantage but it was not entirely over and a player should never lose a game because of something like that Idra is A+ am i right? | ||
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Zozma
United States1626 Posts
Besides, ret is pretty good too you know. ^^ | ||
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
On January 25 2010 15:02 Zozma wrote: IIRC he meant that "it wasn't over because Flash hadn't gg'ed yet". Besides, ret is pretty good too you know. ^^ well he didnt ask for those of the other opinion. I'm not really going to argue for either side and add to the flaming, just thought it was a funny due to his choice of words. | ||
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kingjames01
Canada1603 Posts
Someone take the time to create a UMS and try to recreate this scenario as closely as possible. Then let any and all challengers try to take the Terran army and beat a suitable opponent. Good luck... | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
On January 25 2010 14:49 Tien wrote: This discussion is pretty much over. I'd really like to see those who did not think it was over for Flash to also post their iccup ranks. 100% sure we'd get a bunch of D- level nit wits. You can't be as strategically retarded / clueless as they are and manage to win at anything more than 3v3 BGH games. They make as much of a fool of themselves when they post in this thread as they do when they post in the Strategy forums. Enough already. On January 25 2010 15:13 kingjames01 wrote: This bickering is stupid. The OP's analysis is correct. Jaedong did have all of thosee advantages and Flash really was very far behind. If you disagree then your level of play is probably too low to even comment properly or your opinions are blinded by the outrage felt from a sense of being cheated. People are already so set in their ways about what happened that there's no real reason to argue, but this is really funny seeing posts like this. | ||
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boredcouch
United States110 Posts
On January 25 2010 15:13 kingjames01 wrote: This bickering is stupid. The OP's analysis is correct. Jaedong did have all of thosee advantages and Flash really was very far behind. If you disagree then your level of play is probably too low to even comment properly or your opinions are blinded by the outrage felt from a sense of being cheated. However, if anyone still thinks that Flash could come back from that position then I will suggest a very easy way to settle this. Someone take the time to create a UMS and try to recreate this scenario as closely as possible. Then let any and all challengers try to take the Terran army and beat a suitable opponent. Good luck... Broski, it's already been done. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=110703 I cant believe so many people didn't think Jaedong was winning when it was live... I seriously thought Flash gged and that's why everything went blank. | ||
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kingjames01
Canada1603 Posts
On January 25 2010 15:17 Ver wrote: People are already so set in their ways about what happened that there's no real reason to argue, but this is really funny seeing posts like this. To be fair, I never stated my opinion on the matter about whether or not a rematch should have been played and/or how the decision affected Flash's performance. To be honest I was cheering for Jaedong but I was pissed as hell when the blackout and the ruling occured. It felt like Jaedong had been cheated out of his impending victory in game 3 and I knew beforehand that Flash was going to lose game 4 because of it... The situation was crappy and unfair, but it happened. So, I don't know why you have to insinuate things about my opinion but I'd appreciate it if you weren't "already so set in your ways about what happened that there's no real reason to argue, but [honestly] this is really funny seeing [dumb] posts like this." | ||
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adamisuber
Canada35 Posts
On January 24 2010 02:45 nK)Duke wrote: jaedong won, deal with it haters. edit: You should have said something more about the 5 gas jaedong soon would have got. 5 gas equals 7,5 ultralisks in a minute. Considering the fact that Flash only got a few mineral patches left, (which maybe equals one mineral expansion only) and this will produce something more than 1000 minerals in a minute, Jaedong produces more gas than Flash produces minerals. 1000/50 means 20 marines per minute. Jaedong could have easily taken out Flash with ultralisks only. You don't understand Flash's game at all, watch all of his VODs from the last few months, he doesn't depend on science vessels for killing ultras, he engages them head on with 3/3 marines and superior micro. Of course he irradiates when he can, but he fight's with numbers. He had 2 functioning mineral bases and enough gas to constantly produce science vessels, 3/3 upgrades were almost complete (his engi bay was flashing forever) and all his upgrades were purchased meaning he simply needed to make MnM+vessels, and micro them. No more tech ups, just enough mins to constantly supply fresh marines to the field, and enough vessels to ensure those defilers never get close. Flash had transferred scvs to the min only and had a new CC building at his nat (began when his first one lifts off). Jaedong had no saturation at 2 of his "5" bases, 2 Ultras, 2 defilers (easily irradiatable) Flash was not out, Kespa can kill itself now. | ||
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Chen
United States6344 Posts
On January 25 2010 15:21 boredcouch wrote: Broski, it's already been done. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=110703 I cant believe so many people didn't think Jaedong was winning when it was live... I seriously thought Flash gged and that's why everything went blank. Actually to a casual observer it wasnt obvious at all. After analysis of base count and economy we could easily see that JD had a huge lead, but what most casual people ie those under B level on ICCUP saw was Flash with a fucking huge army rape JD's base, lose that army and replenish it seemingly instantly, then have a back-and-forth fight with Jaedong barely hanging on to that 7. Basically Flash made all the flashy moves and won all the battles save one. Add to that fact that they never showed the main bases so unless you understood the timings you wouldnt know that Flash was mined out, so it seemed 3 base to 5, easily recoverable for Flash Again after analysis and enlightenment it seems obvious that JD was winning but alot of people just dont understand the game on a deep enough level to make those connections, which is why we got so many flames about the decision. | ||
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adamisuber
Canada35 Posts
On January 25 2010 14:49 Tien wrote: This discussion is pretty much over. I'd really like to see those who did not think it was over for Flash to also post their iccup ranks. 100% sure we'd get a bunch of D- level nit wits. You can't be as strategically retarded / clueless as they are and manage to win at anything more than 3v3 BGH games. They make as much of a fool of themselves when they post in this thread as they do when they post in the Strategy forums. Enough already. Wow, way to be a presumptuous twat. C+, I'm probably better than you. The fact that you agree with Kespa is hilarious/moronic. I don't mean to troll but goddamn. | ||
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kyophan
United States113 Posts
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