On January 24 2010 20:54 InFdude wrote: Whats with all the 4th game bullcrap?Flash tried fast aggresion , JD had a 9 pool . The end.
nonono That game does not count because Flash was so pissed that he changed his bo at the last minute because he wanted to throw away 40k dollars by dropping the game. JD and Flash were so shaken up by that incident that they decided impromptu to change builds for a match they prepared for a week. A 7rax is all in, and there is no possible follow up other than a quick sunk break if you cant bunker rush, Flash was fucked, went all in and didnt even scan the nat before pushing in because he had no scans left, he pushed in so fast and he knew it was over that he didnt even wait for the 2nd medic to come in, he was hoping with all his heart that JD only build 1-2 sunks. There is almost no way he would get ahead of JD after a bo deficit like that, whether the fiasco happened or not that's probably how the game would've turned out
On January 24 2010 19:22 FireGuyX wrote: Also the decision was made based off of remaining minerals and the number of base, nothing about unit composition, who or who wasn't winning what battle, etc.
This keeps getting thrown around without being challenged. How do you know that's all they considered? That's what the chick said in the statement, but I highly doubt that's ALL they looked at. Her statement was very brief and to the point.
Kwark, stop saying the game was over. It wasn't over, that's why we're having this entire discussion. It will never be over and we will never know for CERTAIN what would have happened. Trying to reach an consensus is trying to rationalize something we will never know.
On January 24 2010 23:02 Foucault wrote: Kwark, stop saying the game was over. It wasn't over, that's why we're having this entire discussion. It will never be over and we will never know for CERTAIN what would have happened. Trying to reach an consensus is trying to rationalize something we will never know.
You think this topic is a discussion about whether it was over or not? I think you need to read the op again. This ain't no discussion.
Of course people can still make the argument that no matter how lopsided a game is, a rematch should be played. The OP in this thread doesn't deny that. It makes a strong case based on in-game analysis and metagame knowledge that Flash had few options left, and no options that would lead to him having a significant chance of victory that would justify a regame. This was an endgame situation and though we can't know exactly what would have happened we can set clear and indisputable limits as to the possible range of what would have happened. If people still think a regame was the only just response to a blackout, and, yes, a lot of people, some of them fair-minded and informed (Plexa, FakeSteve), some of them biased but polite (Vasoline73), and some of them biased, fantastically ignorant, and terrible posters to begin with, still believe that, then fine.
Nobody is trying to claim the game was 100% over. Of course Flash could still have won the game, even if it would have taken a complete brainmelt by jaedong and the loss of all motor control.
The question is whether Kespa made the right decision. Essentially it boils down to which basis you would have prefered them to have made their decision on.
Either a "Lesser of two evils" approach: In which case as Kwark, the OP, Ret et al have said, Kespa's decision was completely fair.
Or
Carte Blanche rematch in the case of any interrupted match.
If you subscribe to the second approach, fair enough... but bare in mind plenty of other sports have systems in place to decide winners in the case of interrupted play.
On January 24 2010 23:02 Foucault wrote: Kwark, stop saying the game was over. It wasn't over, that's why we're having this entire discussion. It will never be over and we will never know for CERTAIN what would have happened. Trying to reach an consensus is trying to rationalize something we will never know.
You don't have to prove that the game is 100% over. Just "over enough" to be closer statistically to a free win than to a rematch.
Basically: 1. Without blackout JD wins this game 9 times out of 10 2. A regame on Odd-Eye gives JD 4 wins out of 10 3. A free win gives JD the equivalent of 10 wins out of 10
That's my personal numbers and since #3 is much closer to #1 than #2 is that makes #3 the good decision in my book.
Now if you believe that JD and Flash were about 50/50 when the blackout happened (not saying you do) then obviously the rematch is a much better option since 40% is much closer to 50% than 100% is.
The real concern for me in this MSL isn't game 3. It's games 4 and 5 being pretty meaningless even before they were played given the mental state Flash probably was in. It would've been much better if KT+father just accepted KeSPA's decision instead of raging for hours before finally sending the kid back to be slaughtered. No need to kill me for saying this, I understand them and maybe would've have done just the same had I been there but still, it was probably the worst possible turn of events for the poor Flash.
On January 24 2010 23:02 Foucault wrote: Kwark, stop saying the game was over. It wasn't over, that's why we're having this entire discussion. It will never be over and we will never know for CERTAIN what would have happened. Trying to reach an consensus is trying to rationalize something we will never know.
You don't have to prove that the game is 100% over. Just "over enough" to be closer statistically to a free win than to a rematch.
Basically: 1. Without blackout JD wins this game 9 times out of 10 2. A regame on Odd-Eye gives JD 4 wins out of 10 3. A free win gives JD the equivalent of 10 wins out of 10
That's my personal numbers and since #3 is much closer to #1 than #2 is that makes #3 the good decision in my book.
Now if you believe that JD and Flash were about 50/50 when the blackout happened (not saying you do) then obviously the rematch is a much better option since 40% is much closer to 50% than 100% is.
The real concern for me in this MSL isn't game 3. It's games 4 and 5 being pretty meaningless even before they were played given the mental state Flash probably was in. It would've been much better if KT+father just accepted KeSPA's decision instead of raging for hours before finally sending the kid back to be slaughtered. No need to kill me for saying this, I understand them and maybe would've have done just the same had I been there but still, it was probably the worst possible turn of events for the poor Flash.
Dude you are giving Flash too much credit in that game 10% chance wtf even if JD suicide half of his army he would still win that game flash eco was nowhere and only he had like 2-4 vessels and 20 marines left against hordes of ultra ling defilers.
I would put Flash chance wining on less than 1%. Only wining if JD get a heartattack or smth like that.
On January 24 2010 23:02 Foucault wrote: Kwark, stop saying the game was over. It wasn't over, that's why we're having this entire discussion. It will never be over and we will never know for CERTAIN what would have happened. Trying to reach an consensus is trying to rationalize something we will never know.
You think this topic is a discussion about whether it was over or not? I think you need to read the op again. This ain't no discussion.
Well actually that commentator thing turned out to be a fake, probably made by an outrageous flash fanboy. You won't be able to find anything like that on his blog. (http://cyworld.com/coolwen) He just wrote "Sorry. To everyone.".
On January 24 2010 11:16 [X]Ken_D wrote: Match Point and Ultimatum isn't like most maps where zerg can put up 2 lurkers at an expo and be done with it. On those maps, it is very difficult to defend the 3rd gas. 3rd gas on Match points and Ultimatum have multiple entrance. Ultimatum has a big choke going in. Ultimatum has only 1 double gas expo which is always at 7 so it is quite predictable for most terran. The 4th gas is even more difficult to secure on Match Point since it is so far way from the 3rd gas. Being a 2 player map, it is far easier to do proxy bunker rush against a zerg. 9 pool or earlier are much easier to defend since SCV can scout it right away.
your arguments about match point are valid, but if you take mine into consideration you'll see zerg can build up big enough of an advantage with mutas to be able to overcome harder defended 3rd gas
also we've seen many (every) zergs take min only as 4th hatch and stick to those 4 instead of rushing for 4th gas which results is huge ling heavy army which then lets you take 4th gas easier (if you even need it to win)
the 2nd map you're talking about is odd eye and not ultimatum, ultimatum is 4p one with island expos, I agree odd eye is very terran favored and should've been altered or removed as far as tvz is concerned
What's kinda funny about this situation is how deceiving the game looks to a newbie. A newbie sees a constantly aggressive Terran, with a huge number of marines and medics, killing Zerg bases while Zerg is constantly defending and never actually damages (or even really attempts to) the Terran bases. Then suddenly, the game is over, and JD is handed the win!
lol. Kinda funny.
Actually, PvZ can work the same way. A Protoss can macro a shitload off 2 bases, but if he can't land that crippling blow in time, it doesn't matter. The game is literally over the minute Protoss mines out and Zerg is still sitting on 5 gases.
Pretty much the same thing here. Flash's army looks mighty impressive through the game, but he actually doesn't do enough damage with it to make up for the fact that he has an incredibly late 3rd. The blackout occurs literally 30 seconds before Flash runs dry and crumbles. If the game had continued Flash's min only would have been forced to lift in 30 seconds from swarm + few lings + ultra and the game is over like that, leaving all the newbies in the audience scratching their heads "wtf!!!"
Hm sorry have a Question is there any rule about this. I mean if they do have rule that says the the winner has to be decided based on postion or something else. If there is then a re - match would be really wrong and the other way around is also truth.
Has there ever been a rematch duo to something similar or have they always annoused a winner?
I assume the FPVoD's exist due to the existance of the normal game VoD. (I could be wrong here)
This might sound like a silly question but:
Is there a possibility the FPVoD's will be made available? Who has control over them, the players or KESPA?
If it were up to Flash and JD on whether or not to release them, I wouldn't be suprised if they shared theirs with each other already. If they did and both agreed the situation sucked but the decision was fair, then all is well.
Who knows? we may hear about this in an interview in the future. Either way - as they are known to be friends with each other I'm sure they've reconciled it already.
My 2 cents (which no one probably cares about, and doesn't really matter) is that the situation sucked but the decision was fair. In the final 30 seconds, JD had just rocketed ahead through some really amazing clutch play, but 2 minutes earlier you couldn't have called it either way.
If there was a re-game awarded instead, it should definitely have been on another map. It isn't about map imbalance / map statistics, it's making JD replay the map he thumbed down that would make it unfair.
Also, it's pretty terrible that the last 30 seconds of the VoD were unable to be played by the commentators. At the point where they stop, you just don't have enough info to make any kind of decision. I'm sure this roiled Flash's dad as well.
EPT
