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On January 24 2010 17:27 Vasoline73 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 17:14 Letmelose wrote:On January 24 2010 16:57 Vasoline73 wrote:On January 24 2010 16:49 SuperArc wrote:On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote:
Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_- I wonder if they were willing to rematch if they were IN JD's position? I'd bet a lot of money that they would take the win. It's always easy to say "rematch is fair" if the decision doesnt affect you at all. Kespa is supposed to make the most fair choice, for both the players and the sport as a whole. I really doubt that anyone who was arguing that it was fair would suddenly change their minds in JD's shoes. Forcing a guaranteed loss on someone who had a chance to win (in my opinion) is much worse than forcing a rematch that the advantaged player in the previous can still win. It affects the series flow much less than making a random call that goes against all previous calls made by Kespa. If JD was the one losing the game when the blackout occurred I would still call for a rematch, even as a Flash fan, that's how I feel about it. Calling an unwon game in a finals is horrible and kills the dynamic much worse than a rematch, and there's plenty of people who agree. Jaedong would most likely have won game three. This is out of debate. Judging from their starting BO in game four (Jaedong totally predicting Flash's bunker rush in his least favourite map), Jaedong was in a very good shape to close up the series there. I don't think things would have been very different had we done the "fair" thing to do which restart the game from where they left off; Jaedong on the brink of taking Flash down. Now. Gifting Jaedong the win in game three totally screwed up the series, but the series was unsalvagable the moment the game crashed anyhow. But you are fucking kidding yourself if you think that a rematch would have done both players any justice. The dynamic of the series would have been changed completely in Flash's favour. Which is what you wanted. Which is what you expected. Something you didn't get and have been bitching about ever since. Flash was screwed over, but we all know that things probably wouldn't have been different, but you just want to take that 5% chance of "but things might have been different" and skew it so far in Flash's favour. Then you pretend that would have been "more fair" and "would have saved the dynamic of the series more". Bullshit. It would have wrecked the series, but would have had Flash in a solid position to take the series instead of on the brink of defeat. That's why you are so livid about it. Don't pretend otherwise. Hmm, someone is really angry. If it was JD in Flash's position I would call for a rematch regardless. It's what Kespa has always done, why is it wrong to be surprised? Do you really think Plexa, Chill or Fakesteve would suddenly change their minds if Jaedong was the one who was losing but still had a chance? Take a couple deep breaths before you post again and start accusing.
I'm sorry. I just got incredibly frustrated with some of the nonsense thrown about. It looks to me some people are just asking for a rematch simply because they themselves couldn't see the obvious in the game. If you truly believe that all games that ends with a crash should be replayed, then okay, I don't agree with you, but sure, to each his own. I simply don't see how replaying the game would have salvaged the series any more than the decision made by the referee simply because it had been done before.
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I wonder, why do people think they are in a better position to judge who has the advantage than kespa. These people do it for a living. They watch and judge starcraft games almost every day and get paid to judge it fairly. They've seen so many games they probably think it's boring. They are constantly exposed to the progamers, coaches, leagues, and anything pertaining to pro starcraft.
Sure sometimes they make bad decisions like the one with typing errors, but when it comes to calling a game for the advantageous player upon a stoppage, they are only following the convention of the sports world.
When some casual players, or even "hardcore" players cuss at kespa for not knowing how starcraft works, it makes me wonder if they'd think they know infantry tactics better than the guys at West Point just because they play Call of Duty.
If Kespa says Jaedong had a significant advantage, unless you want to start accusing them of bribery and corruption, I suggest you realize that you are just an amateur to the game starcraft compared to these guys.
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On January 24 2010 17:40 LostWraithSC wrote:
I wonder, why do people think they are in a better position to judge who has the advantage than kespa. These people do it for a living. They watch and judge starcraft games almost every day and get paid to judge it fairly. They've seen so many games they probably think it's boring. They are constantly exposed to the progamers, coaches, leagues, and anything pertaining to pro starcraft.
Sure sometimes they make bad decisions like the one with typing errors, but when it comes to calling a game for the advantageous player upon a stoppage, they are only following the convention of the sports world.
When some casual players, or even "hardcore" players cuss at kespa for not knowing how starcraft works, it makes me wonder if they'd think they know infantry tactics better than the guys at West Point just because they play Call of Duty.
If Kespa says Jaedong had a significant advantage, unless you want to start accusing them of bribery and corruption, I suggest you realize that you are just an amateur to the game starcraft compared to these guys.
Do you believe that the people working for kespa understand lategame situations better then the average b level gamer? If so you are wrong.
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On January 24 2010 17:47 AttackZerg wrote:
Do you believe that the people working for kespa understand lategame situations then the average b level gamer? If so you are wrong.
How so? Professional sports coachs, former players, and judges have a much better understanding of their sport than an average player from a mediocre college team, that's the kind of comparison you are drawing here.
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I think he's dissing Kespa more than sport coaches in general.
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On January 24 2010 17:32 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 17:27 FireGuyX wrote:On January 24 2010 17:14 Letmelose wrote:On January 24 2010 16:57 Vasoline73 wrote:On January 24 2010 16:49 SuperArc wrote:On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote:
Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_- I wonder if they were willing to rematch if they were IN JD's position? I'd bet a lot of money that they would take the win. It's always easy to say "rematch is fair" if the decision doesnt affect you at all. Kespa is supposed to make the most fair choice, for both the players and the sport as a whole. I really doubt that anyone who was arguing that it was fair would suddenly change their minds in JD's shoes. Forcing a guaranteed loss on someone who had a chance to win (in my opinion) is much worse than forcing a rematch that the advantaged player in the previous can still win. It affects the series flow much less than making a random call that goes against all previous calls made by Kespa. If JD was the one losing the game when the blackout occurred I would still call for a rematch, even as a Flash fan, that's how I feel about it. Calling an unwon game in a finals is horrible and kills the dynamic much worse than a rematch, and there's plenty of people who agree. Jaedong would most likely have won game three. This is out of debate. Judging from their starting BO in game four (Jaedong totally predicting Flash's bunker rush in his least favourite map), Jaedong was in a very good shape to close up the series there. I don't think things would have been very different had we done the "fair" thing to do which restart the game from where they left off; Jaedong on the brink of taking Flash down. Now. Gifting Jaedong the win in game three totally screwed up the series, but the series was unsalvagable the moment the game crashed anyhow. But you are fucking kidding yourself if you think that a rematch would have done both players any justice. The dynamic of the series would have been changed completely in Flash's favour. Which is what you wanted. Which is what you expected. Something you didn't get and have been bitching about ever since. Flash was screwed over, but we all know that things probably wouldn't have been different, but you just want to take that 5% chance of "but things might have been different" and skew it so far in Flash's favour. Then you pretend that would have been "more fair" and "would have saved the dynamic of the series more". Bullshit. It would have wrecked the series, but would have had Flash in a solid position to take the series instead of on the brink of defeat. That's why you are so livid about it. Don't pretend otherwise. 5% chance? You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, more like 50% chance because Flash got his 3rd up, not to mention Flash had 3 armor and 3 weapons upgraded. If Flash gged legitimately than there would of been no uproar from Flash's dad or his coach. Flash had an advantage, but then Jaedong slightly was ahead economically later on in the game. We don't know how the results would of turned out because of the black out, an automatic win was bull shit. No, you don't know what you're talking about, and you never do. Why do you even bother posting? Everyone agrees that Jaedong was significantly ahead in that game, including Kespa's referees, who not only understand the game better than you but had access to more information about it. The only questions are exactly how much Jaedong was ahead by and whether that was enough of a reason to award the game to him.
Everyone? From the way I see it many people have said that Jaedong was guaranteed to win, many fans have said that Flash could of won despite being behind economically. Flash's 3rd expansion was done and he was 3/3 in upgrades. Also the decision was made based off of remaining minerals and the number of base, nothing about unit composition, who or who wasn't winning what battle, etc. And since when were you a programmer? You're just a fan observing a match.
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On January 24 2010 17:39 samachking wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 17:27 FireGuyX wrote:On January 24 2010 17:14 Letmelose wrote:On January 24 2010 16:57 Vasoline73 wrote:On January 24 2010 16:49 SuperArc wrote:On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote:
Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_- I wonder if they were willing to rematch if they were IN JD's position? I'd bet a lot of money that they would take the win. It's always easy to say "rematch is fair" if the decision doesnt affect you at all. Kespa is supposed to make the most fair choice, for both the players and the sport as a whole. I really doubt that anyone who was arguing that it was fair would suddenly change their minds in JD's shoes. Forcing a guaranteed loss on someone who had a chance to win (in my opinion) is much worse than forcing a rematch that the advantaged player in the previous can still win. It affects the series flow much less than making a random call that goes against all previous calls made by Kespa. If JD was the one losing the game when the blackout occurred I would still call for a rematch, even as a Flash fan, that's how I feel about it. Calling an unwon game in a finals is horrible and kills the dynamic much worse than a rematch, and there's plenty of people who agree. Jaedong would most likely have won game three. This is out of debate. Judging from their starting BO in game four (Jaedong totally predicting Flash's bunker rush in his least favourite map), Jaedong was in a very good shape to close up the series there. I don't think things would have been very different had we done the "fair" thing to do which restart the game from where they left off; Jaedong on the brink of taking Flash down. Now. Gifting Jaedong the win in game three totally screwed up the series, but the series was unsalvagable the moment the game crashed anyhow. But you are fucking kidding yourself if you think that a rematch would have done both players any justice. The dynamic of the series would have been changed completely in Flash's favour. Which is what you wanted. Which is what you expected. Something you didn't get and have been bitching about ever since. Flash was screwed over, but we all know that things probably wouldn't have been different, but you just want to take that 5% chance of "but things might have been different" and skew it so far in Flash's favour. Then you pretend that would have been "more fair" and "would have saved the dynamic of the series more". Bullshit. It would have wrecked the series, but would have had Flash in a solid position to take the series instead of on the brink of defeat. That's why you are so livid about it. Don't pretend otherwise. 5% chance? You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, more like 50% chance because Flash got his 3rd up, not to mention Flash had 3 armor and 3 weapons upgraded. If Flash gged legitimately than there would of been no uproar from Flash's dad or his coach. Flash had an advantage, but then Jaedong slightly was ahead economically later on in the game. We don't know how the results would of turned out because of the black out, an automatic win was bull shit. You shouldnt be allowed to post on anything related to strategy, most of your posts regarding situations is completely biased assessments with no clue whatsoever and is basically churning out incomprehensible garbage. 50% really? What game have you been watching, and have you ever played TvZ late game? I assure you that pumping 4rax MnM with 1 port off 6 mineral patches has no chance at all of beating 5gas(soon 6) ultra/filer/ling that are fully upgraded. Anyone who thinks Flash had even a slight advantage in that game is ridiculously misinformed. You are a Flash/Movie fanboy but stop spamming garbage strategical appraisals when they lose okay? No one is arguing that Flash is ahead, but whether a re should be allowed or not, everyone knows that Flash was extremely behind that game.
Extremely behind? Yet Flash for about 70% of the game had a pretty good lead winning some battles and taking out at least 3 hatcheries. Yes Flash was behind economically, but his third was about to be up and was ahead in tech compared to Jaedong. As for my post being garbage, no more then yours, and you know that. Also Jaedong hardly had any drones mining in either of his expansions. You can dissect and analyze this match all you want, but you're not completely right and neither is KeSpa.
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On January 24 2010 17:40 LostWraithSC wrote:
I wonder, why do people think they are in a better position to judge who has the advantage than kespa. These people do it for a living. They watch and judge starcraft games almost every day and get paid to judge it fairly. They've seen so many games they probably think it's boring. They are constantly exposed to the progamers, coaches, leagues, and anything pertaining to pro starcraft.
Sure sometimes they make bad decisions like the one with typing errors, but when it comes to calling a game for the advantageous player upon a stoppage, they are only following the convention of the sports world.
When some casual players, or even "hardcore" players cuss at kespa for not knowing how starcraft works, it makes me wonder if they'd think they know infantry tactics better than the guys at West Point just because they play Call of Duty.
If Kespa says Jaedong had a significant advantage, unless you want to start accusing them of bribery and corruption, I suggest you realize that you are just an amateur to the game starcraft compared to these guys.
Because Kespa has proven a hundred times that they were the worst responsible possible for the esports in general. Kespa has no idea about what is good and bad for the game, what is good and bad for the players, what is good an bad for esports.
Kespa is a structure of power and money. And they really really suck.
Now problem is not that the game was lost or not. The game was lost. But losing a game because you gg or losing a game because the game crashed and you had a disadvantage are two things radically different. Now nobody asks "Why did the game crashed". How the fuck can theses people not be able to secure a lan between three computers? That's amazing. It happens just when they install this retarded studio which cut the players from their audience.
The serie was screwed when the game crashed. I don't even care who won, it was shit.
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On January 24 2010 15:58 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 15:55 Creationism wrote:On January 24 2010 14:41 blade55555 wrote:On January 24 2010 13:44 Creationism wrote:
I think the whole difference in the game is that you have no replay, you have no supply and no actual mineral count to base off of except what the commentators decided to look at. Even at the end, whether those ultras survived is also the question, the amount of health they had left. Even if Jaedong was taking another expansion, it was far from being done, and further from being mined.
The way the game went was left with what Flash could do. I really don't like people quoting other people on their opinion of the advantage and using it to convince people that Jaedong was massively ahead. Do they know the game better or does Flash know the game better? Seeing the way he gged in the first game, the very fact that he stayed in the game means to me he believed he still had a fighting chance.
And the argument that Jaedong had showed his build on this map and therefore was at a disadvantage is a flawed argument simply because both players obviously had specific BOs and both showed them. The racial imbalance on fighting spirit is very debatable because it is based off of past games, which do not number in the thousands, but simply in tens. Can't even law of large numbers that shit.
Even given all that I'm pretty torn between a rematch and the given victory, but I pretty much believe a rematch should be given in all situations of this type. Being a competition I think the trend should go towards allowing players to compete instead of taking away someone's ability to compete. so if you were playing a 20 minute game in a tournament like this in game 3 on a terran favored map (70% correct?) and actually winning with a build that would only work once you wouldn't be pist if you had to do a rematch? Think about it Flash is just doing standard 1 rax fe as expected while jaedong did 3 hatch before pool into fast ultra which is way different and riskier. Do you really think if they rematched jaedong could/would do that same build? He would be at a disadvantage because he had that build specifically in mind for that game and would have been utter bullshit if they had to re it. Now while I was rooting for jaedong I unlike most people look at this through 2 different views. For starters I do know that for Flash he may have had a chance (a very small one mind you) but he still thought he had a chance or he was just hoping Jaedong would fuck up and he would be able to win who knows but it would be more devestating for jaedong if there was a re as what would he do? 2 hatch muta all in? Yeah thats awesome because of MBC's stupid computers Jaedong has to do that strategy or lose as what else can he do? He can't do that 3 hatch before pool Flash wouldn't allow that so again think of it in Jaedongs perspective as well not just flash's. While I do think this was the best decision I do hate how its a lose/lose either way as had they said Re I would be surprised if Jaedong somehow won considering the map and he would have to do some different strategy. That game was epic and I still after watching the end of the vod, the threads with why it looked like flash was going to lose I still hold to Kespa's decision. It just sucks it had to happen in game 3 why couldn't it have happened in game 1 or something its very ironic it happens in the best game of the series so far T_T. I can honestly say that I would not be pissed if Flash was winning n had to rematch due to a blackout and even LOSING the rematch. I would not be pissed at all. Actually, I would think thats proper competition. I don't think the spirit of competition is EVER to take away a person's ability to compete and fight. If JD can do it once, he can do it again. I didn't say if it was flash. I said if it was YOU in the position for xxx amount of money. I doubt you would say "yeah lets rematch even though now you know my build I just did so I have to do something more, sure its favored for my opponents race". No just no you wouldn't but since you will never be (nor me or anyone else here) you'll say "nah I would still rematch" but I bet if it happened you wouldn't if you were given the choice. On note to the guy who just saw the MSL I do have to say most people were saying Flash was going to 3-0 3-1 jaedong if jaedong was lucky. Its why I was really really hoping Jaedong would win just because people tend to forget how good Jaedong really is and I am glad he proves again why he is still considered the best player 
I would take the rematch. Given the choice and the instance, I would obviously WANT the given win, being in the position means I would want whats completely best for me, disregarding ALL other circumstances. That's the way it works. But had Kespa asked me to allow a rematch I wouldn't complain. I actually believe in the nature of competition and allowing a contest for the best even if I had lost my initial advantage.
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On January 24 2010 19:24 FireGuyX wrote:
Extremely behind? Yet Flash for about 70% of the game had a pretty good lead winning some battles and taking out at least 3 hatcheries. Yes Flash was behind economically, but his third was about to be up and was ahead in tech compared to Jaedong.
he took out the hatch at 1. empty hatch at 2 and empty hatch at 7 before it was set up and defended...
flash lost the big battle after taking out the hatch at 2..
and please explain how flash's tech was ahead of jaedong? (not been patronising)
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I completely agree with the OP.
I think the frustrations of Flash fans got extremely high during the games because a lot apprently did not see the last 30 seconds where Flash backed up and let JD have his 2 gas expansion (giving him 5 gas total, three of which were fresh).
I have never seen a pro game where a terran have comeback with a mineral only, a handful of marines, no tanks (or machine shop) and a very low vessel count, vs a zerg with 5 gas, fully carapace ultras, nydus canals and defilers. I mean, it just does not happen.
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I was cheering for JD and I think the decision in game 3 was correct BUT it still doesn`t feel right for the audience aswell as for JD and Flash and that just makes me sad KeSpa done the right thing(never toguht I would say that one day ^^) but in my opinion MSL just proved to us that it holds the title of dipshit league number one I mean those guys once in a lifetime got a good final it`s not only a good one it`s the best finale you could think of at the moment and they really manage to screw it up with this ridicouls looking virtual studio and you can throw facts like hell at me set 4 was just the result of all this MSL drama everything happening after set 2 was just sad sad sad and BIIIIIIIIIG FU at the MostShittyLeague
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On January 24 2010 19:24 FireGuyX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 17:39 samachking wrote:On January 24 2010 17:27 FireGuyX wrote:On January 24 2010 17:14 Letmelose wrote:On January 24 2010 16:57 Vasoline73 wrote:On January 24 2010 16:49 SuperArc wrote:On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote:
Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_- I wonder if they were willing to rematch if they were IN JD's position? I'd bet a lot of money that they would take the win. It's always easy to say "rematch is fair" if the decision doesnt affect you at all. Kespa is supposed to make the most fair choice, for both the players and the sport as a whole. I really doubt that anyone who was arguing that it was fair would suddenly change their minds in JD's shoes. Forcing a guaranteed loss on someone who had a chance to win (in my opinion) is much worse than forcing a rematch that the advantaged player in the previous can still win. It affects the series flow much less than making a random call that goes against all previous calls made by Kespa. If JD was the one losing the game when the blackout occurred I would still call for a rematch, even as a Flash fan, that's how I feel about it. Calling an unwon game in a finals is horrible and kills the dynamic much worse than a rematch, and there's plenty of people who agree. Jaedong would most likely have won game three. This is out of debate. Judging from their starting BO in game four (Jaedong totally predicting Flash's bunker rush in his least favourite map), Jaedong was in a very good shape to close up the series there. I don't think things would have been very different had we done the "fair" thing to do which restart the game from where they left off; Jaedong on the brink of taking Flash down. Now. Gifting Jaedong the win in game three totally screwed up the series, but the series was unsalvagable the moment the game crashed anyhow. But you are fucking kidding yourself if you think that a rematch would have done both players any justice. The dynamic of the series would have been changed completely in Flash's favour. Which is what you wanted. Which is what you expected. Something you didn't get and have been bitching about ever since. Flash was screwed over, but we all know that things probably wouldn't have been different, but you just want to take that 5% chance of "but things might have been different" and skew it so far in Flash's favour. Then you pretend that would have been "more fair" and "would have saved the dynamic of the series more". Bullshit. It would have wrecked the series, but would have had Flash in a solid position to take the series instead of on the brink of defeat. That's why you are so livid about it. Don't pretend otherwise. 5% chance? You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, more like 50% chance because Flash got his 3rd up, not to mention Flash had 3 armor and 3 weapons upgraded. If Flash gged legitimately than there would of been no uproar from Flash's dad or his coach. Flash had an advantage, but then Jaedong slightly was ahead economically later on in the game. We don't know how the results would of turned out because of the black out, an automatic win was bull shit. You shouldnt be allowed to post on anything related to strategy, most of your posts regarding situations is completely biased assessments with no clue whatsoever and is basically churning out incomprehensible garbage. 50% really? What game have you been watching, and have you ever played TvZ late game? I assure you that pumping 4rax MnM with 1 port off 6 mineral patches has no chance at all of beating 5gas(soon 6) ultra/filer/ling that are fully upgraded. Anyone who thinks Flash had even a slight advantage in that game is ridiculously misinformed. You are a Flash/Movie fanboy but stop spamming garbage strategical appraisals when they lose okay? No one is arguing that Flash is ahead, but whether a re should be allowed or not, everyone knows that Flash was extremely behind that game. Extremely behind? Yet Flash for about 70% of the game had a pretty good lead winning some battles and taking out at least 3 hatcheries. Yes Flash was behind economically, but his third was about to be up and was ahead in tech compared to Jaedong. As for my post being garbage, no more then yours, and you know that. Also Jaedong hardly had any drones mining in either of his expansions. You can dissect and analyze this match all you want, but you're not completely right and neither is KeSpa.
You and some others seem to disregard the mechanics of TvZ. What you try to accomplish in ZvT as zerg is get more than 3 gas, get ultra +5 armor, get defilers at all your expansions and nydus canals. Once this is accomplished you have so much gas you can mass ultras, build defilers and ofcourse mass lings, you have extreme map mobility and without tanks, terran can never attack your bases (invinsible units under swarm).
For terran this is the worst case senario. All games (with a few exeptions which I will comeback to) terrans wins against zerg in these macro games revolve around denieing a forth or even 3rd gas, because if you succeed in this you can irradiate such a large portion of the ultras and defilers that zerg can get, that your m&m army can beat the immortal ultras. Even Flash losses to lesser zergs when he does not keep the zerg under 4 gas AND let them have ultras and defilers securing the zergs bases (look at 09-12-14 Shinhan 09-10 Proleague game vs Hyun).
Terrans that have won against a +3 gas zerg that have all tech (including flash) have had +3 gas themselves and then MASSED tanks. Like the game of calm vs flash in their recent series.
Now lets take a look at this game. Flash had 1½ minerals mining bases. He had two gas of which both were depleted. He did NOT have machineshop therefore could not suddently get mass tanks ( and did not have the gas for it either).
JD had 3 fresh gasses, he had the coverted defiler/ultra/crackling/nydus +3 carapace tech in the game. How can he lose this? If Flash cannot even beat Hyun in a situation where he was actually better of, how in the world should he ever beat JD.
Here is a scenario I would like to point out:
What should flash do to the innevitable attack on his fresh min only, with a couple of defilers, a couple of ultras and some lings, when he DOES NOT have tanks OR map control. This would mean he would after a few seconds loose his min only and be starved.
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Korea (South)922 Posts
In all reality, it wasnt 99.9% sure flash would lose, 0.1% being a comeback, it was 99.9% of us agree that unfinished game or finished game, jaedong had it, and thats that. that 0.1% (kt coaches and maybe flash) stuck to the old fashioned honor of a game restart. but its actually them with a "if a game is discontinued it must be restarted which means it gives a chance for flash to redeem a win when its given" facade, which would be a preposterous decision even if flash had the opportunity to comeback. i actually for once support kespa's decision of arbritrarily calling the game rather than sticking it to the thumb and do shit the "correct" way. stuff like that ended up as gorush and leta being in unhappy terms.
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Its so easy to forget that they're so young, its no wonder flash played so so shakily in game 4, you'd need iron in your veins to not be crushed by those kind of fucked up circumstances.
But yeah, flash had pretty much no chance of winning game 3, even if it hadnt gotten screwed
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On January 24 2010 19:24 FireGuyX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 17:39 samachking wrote:On January 24 2010 17:27 FireGuyX wrote:On January 24 2010 17:14 Letmelose wrote:On January 24 2010 16:57 Vasoline73 wrote:On January 24 2010 16:49 SuperArc wrote:On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote:
Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_- I wonder if they were willing to rematch if they were IN JD's position? I'd bet a lot of money that they would take the win. It's always easy to say "rematch is fair" if the decision doesnt affect you at all. Kespa is supposed to make the most fair choice, for both the players and the sport as a whole. I really doubt that anyone who was arguing that it was fair would suddenly change their minds in JD's shoes. Forcing a guaranteed loss on someone who had a chance to win (in my opinion) is much worse than forcing a rematch that the advantaged player in the previous can still win. It affects the series flow much less than making a random call that goes against all previous calls made by Kespa. If JD was the one losing the game when the blackout occurred I would still call for a rematch, even as a Flash fan, that's how I feel about it. Calling an unwon game in a finals is horrible and kills the dynamic much worse than a rematch, and there's plenty of people who agree. Jaedong would most likely have won game three. This is out of debate. Judging from their starting BO in game four (Jaedong totally predicting Flash's bunker rush in his least favourite map), Jaedong was in a very good shape to close up the series there. I don't think things would have been very different had we done the "fair" thing to do which restart the game from where they left off; Jaedong on the brink of taking Flash down. Now. Gifting Jaedong the win in game three totally screwed up the series, but the series was unsalvagable the moment the game crashed anyhow. But you are fucking kidding yourself if you think that a rematch would have done both players any justice. The dynamic of the series would have been changed completely in Flash's favour. Which is what you wanted. Which is what you expected. Something you didn't get and have been bitching about ever since. Flash was screwed over, but we all know that things probably wouldn't have been different, but you just want to take that 5% chance of "but things might have been different" and skew it so far in Flash's favour. Then you pretend that would have been "more fair" and "would have saved the dynamic of the series more". Bullshit. It would have wrecked the series, but would have had Flash in a solid position to take the series instead of on the brink of defeat. That's why you are so livid about it. Don't pretend otherwise. 5% chance? You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, more like 50% chance because Flash got his 3rd up, not to mention Flash had 3 armor and 3 weapons upgraded. If Flash gged legitimately than there would of been no uproar from Flash's dad or his coach. Flash had an advantage, but then Jaedong slightly was ahead economically later on in the game. We don't know how the results would of turned out because of the black out, an automatic win was bull shit. You shouldnt be allowed to post on anything related to strategy, most of your posts regarding situations is completely biased assessments with no clue whatsoever and is basically churning out incomprehensible garbage. 50% really? What game have you been watching, and have you ever played TvZ late game? I assure you that pumping 4rax MnM with 1 port off 6 mineral patches has no chance at all of beating 5gas(soon 6) ultra/filer/ling that are fully upgraded. Anyone who thinks Flash had even a slight advantage in that game is ridiculously misinformed. You are a Flash/Movie fanboy but stop spamming garbage strategical appraisals when they lose okay? No one is arguing that Flash is ahead, but whether a re should be allowed or not, everyone knows that Flash was extremely behind that game. Extremely behind? Yet Flash for about 80% of the game had a pretty good lead winning many battles and taking out at least 3 hatcheries. Yes Flash was behind economically, but his third was about to be up and was ahead in tech compared to Jaedong. As for my post being garbage, no more then yours. Also Jaedong hardly had any drones mining in the 3 o'clock expansion. Jaedong was ahead, but it wasn't a guaranteed to win.
I''m sorry if I'm being repetitive now. But this is important to say: everyone that knows anything of the game knows that Flash was extremely behind. I don't think you can find anyone that contradicts this that is not a random poster (and Flash fanboy).
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United Arab Emirates5091 Posts
after browsing this thread, it just showed me that sc is not dying at all. so many newbs don't see that jaedong was absolutely in the lead there.
don't even try to argue, anyone who has any knowledge about sc will immediately know that you have fought way too few battles.
awww how cute. so many younglings. you have a lot to learn. welcome to sc.
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I'm pretty sure Flash himself knew he had lost that game. His retreating marines certainly indicate that.
I'm also pretty sure that his shakiness in game 4 can and should be attributed to the drama and the 1 hour wait, not the lost game 3. Who you want to blame for that, is your call.
Ps: Some ppl post here without even reading/comprehending the Op and should get slapped silly.
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United States42259 Posts
On January 24 2010 19:24 FireGuyX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2010 17:39 samachking wrote:On January 24 2010 17:27 FireGuyX wrote:On January 24 2010 17:14 Letmelose wrote:On January 24 2010 16:57 Vasoline73 wrote:On January 24 2010 16:49 SuperArc wrote:On January 24 2010 16:39 Vasoline73 wrote:
Preach it Fakesteve. When you have people like Last Romantic, Plexa, Idra, Fakesteve and Chill all saying a rematch was the correct course of action... well then it's not as clear cut as people are pretending it is -_- I wonder if they were willing to rematch if they were IN JD's position? I'd bet a lot of money that they would take the win. It's always easy to say "rematch is fair" if the decision doesnt affect you at all. Kespa is supposed to make the most fair choice, for both the players and the sport as a whole. I really doubt that anyone who was arguing that it was fair would suddenly change their minds in JD's shoes. Forcing a guaranteed loss on someone who had a chance to win (in my opinion) is much worse than forcing a rematch that the advantaged player in the previous can still win. It affects the series flow much less than making a random call that goes against all previous calls made by Kespa. If JD was the one losing the game when the blackout occurred I would still call for a rematch, even as a Flash fan, that's how I feel about it. Calling an unwon game in a finals is horrible and kills the dynamic much worse than a rematch, and there's plenty of people who agree. Jaedong would most likely have won game three. This is out of debate. Judging from their starting BO in game four (Jaedong totally predicting Flash's bunker rush in his least favourite map), Jaedong was in a very good shape to close up the series there. I don't think things would have been very different had we done the "fair" thing to do which restart the game from where they left off; Jaedong on the brink of taking Flash down. Now. Gifting Jaedong the win in game three totally screwed up the series, but the series was unsalvagable the moment the game crashed anyhow. But you are fucking kidding yourself if you think that a rematch would have done both players any justice. The dynamic of the series would have been changed completely in Flash's favour. Which is what you wanted. Which is what you expected. Something you didn't get and have been bitching about ever since. Flash was screwed over, but we all know that things probably wouldn't have been different, but you just want to take that 5% chance of "but things might have been different" and skew it so far in Flash's favour. Then you pretend that would have been "more fair" and "would have saved the dynamic of the series more". Bullshit. It would have wrecked the series, but would have had Flash in a solid position to take the series instead of on the brink of defeat. That's why you are so livid about it. Don't pretend otherwise. 5% chance? You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, more like 50% chance because Flash got his 3rd up, not to mention Flash had 3 armor and 3 weapons upgraded. If Flash gged legitimately than there would of been no uproar from Flash's dad or his coach. Flash had an advantage, but then Jaedong slightly was ahead economically later on in the game. We don't know how the results would of turned out because of the black out, an automatic win was bull shit. You shouldnt be allowed to post on anything related to strategy, most of your posts regarding situations is completely biased assessments with no clue whatsoever and is basically churning out incomprehensible garbage. 50% really? What game have you been watching, and have you ever played TvZ late game? I assure you that pumping 4rax MnM with 1 port off 6 mineral patches has no chance at all of beating 5gas(soon 6) ultra/filer/ling that are fully upgraded. Anyone who thinks Flash had even a slight advantage in that game is ridiculously misinformed. You are a Flash/Movie fanboy but stop spamming garbage strategical appraisals when they lose okay? No one is arguing that Flash is ahead, but whether a re should be allowed or not, everyone knows that Flash was extremely behind that game. Extremely behind? Yet Flash for about 70% of the game had a pretty good lead winning some battles and taking out at least 3 hatcheries. Yes Flash was behind economically, but his third was about to be up and was ahead in tech compared to Jaedong. As for my post being garbage, no more then yours, and you know that. Also Jaedong hardly had any drones mining in either of his expansions. You can dissect and analyze this match all you want, but you're not completely right and neither is KeSpa.
FireGuyX, bringing the knowledge.
Flash wasn't just behind economically. He had 12 mineral squares total, 6 of which were <200 minerals. That's not enough to keep his barracks running. He was dead economically. In one minute he'd be down to 6 mineral squares. By comparison JaeDong had 4 mining bases with at least 25 drones seen mining minerals. I don't know people are still not getting this. How was he up in tech? He had mnm tech and vessel tech along with 3-3 upgrades. By comparison JaeDong had 5-2 ultralisks and defilers. That's zerg behind ahead in tech, Terran needs some mech tech to block that.
You just don't know shit about shit. Terran went 2 base allin and it looked impressive and idiots who see nothing but flashy lights and pretty colours think that because Flash was making lots of marines he was winning. However everyone who knows anything about bw understands that when you go allin and that allin fails, you lose. Don't believe me?
Idra believes the game was over (but supports rematch for the sake of it)
Ret believes the game was over 99.9%
Nazgul believes the game was over 99%
I believe the game was over (A- high)
Lalush believes the game was over (A- high)
Oystein believes the game was over (A- high)
Ahzz believes the game was over (B+ high I think)
Upon reviewing the last 30 seconds Chill agreed the game was over
Fakesteve believes the game was over (but again supports a rematch)
Attackzerg believes the game was over (B high)
Incontrol "jaedong's win (was going to happen) is forever tainted"
Fantasy "jaedong win" (thanks Romad)
And those are just the I can think of people off the top of my head. You are FireGuyX, renowned for being one of the worst posters in the strategy forum when it comes to general ignorance. Maybe you could let this one go.
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