Flash seems unstoppable this season. My question to you guys is:
What advice would you give to the current progamers on what they need to DO/CHANGE in order to beat Flash? I'm personally most interested in TvZ but pick whatever matchup you wanna talk about.
Cheesy builds seem to be the natural way to surprise a superior opponent or compensate for an inferior mid/late game. But Flash seems SO on top of opponents' cheese with his game sense that he always can force a mid/late game where few can match him. Should Flash opponents try even cheesier builds and all-ins to try to win early and avoid long drawn out matches? Do you think simply standard play with better mechanics can beat Flash? Are there unit combos /builds that might force Flash to play him less comfortable builds (he seems so comfortable with his M&M right now)?
Play Protoss and don't die to early pushes off 2 bases? Or play Zerg and hope he forgets turrets.
I'll paraphrase some advice I saw in the STK vs KT LR thread: "Don't enter the booth. The kid is like 16, just tackle him! It would be madness to try to fight him with a keyboard and mouse."
2 hatch mutas is still pretty effective against him. Unfortunately for Clam, that isn't really his style.
Flash played a gorgeous game against BeSt last night, but we still haven't seen him (or really anybody else) beat a Protoss in lategame in a while. It just feels so impossible these days.
he looked into my eyes and i could feel the ages he has been living trough and gaining experience. He shivered a little and began to speak slowly: "but then again, how can you stop something that's unstoppable?"
Day Nine casted a game on Fighting Spirit where Best(toss) scouted him getting an early third.. because of that Best was able to expand wildly and make flash look like a newb with a HUGE late game army. So of course few Koreans are likely to beat Flash in a straight up macro game but he's still susceptible to Hard counters and econ driven builds especially on map with big open centers.
On January 01 2010 05:19 icemac wrote: In all seriousness, some sort of timing attack made just for beating flash.
In both matchups, but especialy in his v Z, he has so many damn good variations that he pulls off just as well. He cheeses as well as he plays standard.... Tough finding a consistent timing or getting a partner to be quite good enough.... got to factor in his ungodly macro.
Play Protoss and go carriers. While Flash`s TvZ/TvT has been looking spectacular, his TvP has not been up to his usual standards. I think he relied too much on Protoss not getting this far into the individual leagues and primarily practiced his TvZ.
For awhile, I thought that Flash weakness to his build at times was the fact that it took a while for his army to materialize. He opted for (what many considered to be non-cheesy build) a long game -- which plays to his macro ability strength. From that, we noticed that off his last 3 losses, the opponent clearly exploit that fact by being greedy and just kept going for more and more bases earlier than usual. (Hyun/Stork/Zero). If you noticed the last few games that Flash played, I think he clearly plays with the mental game to show his other opponents that I will not tolerate those ninja/early multiple expos no more. He went bunker rush against Jaedong, 2 barracks timing push against S2, and 2 facs timing push against Best.
I really like it how he knows that he has the upper edge on the mental game and he kept making his next game more and more unpredictable for his opponent. To me, more than his macro, that seems to be what is giving him his recent invincible aura.
I can't stop drooling over Flash's genius. He looks so invincible because he's always doing the right build against his opponent. Whether it is through preparation or a streak of good luck - he's constantly attacking at times when his opponent looks unbelievably unprepared to hold off the attack.
When someone is on a tear like him, it's understandable that some will feel the game is over before it even begins.
It happens in every sport, when someone/some team gets on a tear, you can tell that once the first conflict or two happens, they expect to lose, maybe subconsciously, maybe consciously, but Flash expects to win.
If they practiced correctly, went at it with a fresh mind, I think you'd see a fantastic game.
I think that until flash burns out from overwork/stress or makes a few horrible decisions that make him lose some of his faith in himself he will go nearly unbeaten by zergs.
TvP is doable by stork/best/jangbi/bisu
TvZ I think he will dominate jaedong on the current map pool effortlessly each time.
Tonight will be the test of what smart zergs can bring to the table. Calm is the only progamer to ever use a 3 hat muta build into a broodling/lurker midgame to defend against tanks and hold four gases. I assume that if something strategically can be brought to the table calm will.
Effort could beat him in a lategame but he would have to get there first ...
On January 01 2010 06:18 AttackZerg wrote: I think that until flash burns out from overwork/stress or makes a few horrible decisions that make him lose some of his faith in himself he will go nearly unbeaten by zergs.
TvP is doable by stork/best/jangbi/bisu
TvZ I think he will dominate jaedong on the current map pool effortlessly each time.
Tonight will be the test of what smart zergs can bring to the table. Calm is the only progamer to ever use a 3 hat muta build into a broodling/lurker midgame to defend against tanks and hold four gases. I assume that if something strategically can be brought to the table calm will.
Effort could beat him in a lategame but he would have to get there first ...
The best thing is, I dont think flash is going to burn out this time. KT's so good now, flash losing doesn't really matter. Hell kt losing doesnt matter, since they are so far in first. He can shrug off pl [and if forgg even becomes half decent, not play at all!] and its OK. Honestly, this is Flash in the best circumstance we could realistically hope for. This is him with 100% of skill and dedication. Really exciting to see what that can produce. Even if its failure, I'm happy that we will finally get to see what Flash can really do, as before there always seemed to be a readily available excuse. Potential unlocked, gogo!
On January 01 2010 06:04 lolaloc wrote: Force Flash to turtle, then expand like hell. The progamer must keep him contained at most 2 bases and 1 min only. Then transition to lategame.
Hyun would never have won if Flash didn't place his rax defending turrets in that position. You can notice it vs his games vs Zero on the same map. Flash knew his turret mistake and corrected it. The better placed turrets stops mutas from running inside the base (a hole Flash had missed) and also helps defending the natural.
There is no "strategy" with killing 20 scvsand there was no amazing play from Hyuns side. If you succeed to do that you win. GG. It's amazing Flash played it well from there anyway.
I have no idea but all I know is that I haven't seen him play for a long time and I saw him yesterday vs Best - everything about him seemed so perfect from the start. It will take loads of effort to bring him down. :\
God I pray that in MSL Jaedong vs flash Bo5 and flash loses because I don't think Flash will be able to cheese and win unless he wins 2 in a row then on his third cheeses. I honestly don't think Flash can beat Jaedong in a BO5 straight up. Of course if they do end up playing BO5 and Flash wins 3-0 or even wins I will be surprised regardless if he cheeses or not. Flash is good no doubt but I don't think he's "perfect" like you all seem to think ><.
Gotta bring something new to the table or overload his schedule enough so that he's not in peak condition on an important day. So long as his mental state remains intact Flash will not lose a series vs anyone even on these anti-T maps if they don't have a golden innovation.
On January 01 2010 06:54 blade55555 wrote: God I pray that in MSL Jaedong vs flash Bo5 and flash loses because I don't think Flash will be able to cheese and win unless he wins 2 in a row then on his third cheeses. I honestly don't think Flash can beat Jaedong in a BO5 straight up. Of course if they do end up playing BO5 and Flash wins 3-0 or even wins I will be surprised regardless if he cheeses or not. Flash is good no doubt but I don't think he's "perfect" like you all seem to think ><.
You say that like Jaedong vs Flash is a sure thing. Don't count out Kal, BeSt, or even Kwanro for the finals.
On January 01 2010 06:54 blade55555 wrote: God I pray that in MSL Jaedong vs flash Bo5 and flash loses because I don't think Flash will be able to cheese and win unless he wins 2 in a row then on his third cheeses. I honestly don't think Flash can beat Jaedong in a BO5 straight up. Of course if they do end up playing BO5 and Flash wins 3-0 or even wins I will be surprised regardless if he cheeses or not. Flash is good no doubt but I don't think he's "perfect" like you all seem to think ><.
You're out of your mind.
Jaedong's ZvT has been kinda questionable lately while Flash's TvZ is pretty much beyond reproach.
On January 01 2010 06:54 blade55555 wrote: God I pray that in MSL Jaedong vs flash Bo5 and flash loses because I don't think Flash will be able to cheese and win unless he wins 2 in a row then on his third cheeses. I honestly don't think Flash can beat Jaedong in a BO5 straight up. Of course if they do end up playing BO5 and Flash wins 3-0 or even wins I will be surprised regardless if he cheeses or not. Flash is good no doubt but I don't think he's "perfect" like you all seem to think ><.
You're out of your mind.
Jaedong's ZvT has been kinda questionable lately while Flash's TvZ is pretty much beyond reproach.
On January 01 2010 06:54 blade55555 wrote: God I pray that in MSL Jaedong vs flash Bo5 and flash loses because I don't think Flash will be able to cheese and win unless he wins 2 in a row then on his third cheeses. I honestly don't think Flash can beat Jaedong in a BO5 straight up. Of course if they do end up playing BO5 and Flash wins 3-0 or even wins I will be surprised regardless if he cheeses or not. Flash is good no doubt but I don't think he's "perfect" like you all seem to think ><.
You're out of your mind.
Jaedong's ZvT has been kinda questionable lately while Flash's TvZ is pretty much beyond reproach.
Indeed.
I would go even farther and say jaedongs early-midgame zvt has been HORRIBLE.
like I've said before effort is the only zerg playing solid early-midgame-lategame plans against terran. unfortunately he isn't as strong as jaedong in micro or lategame mechanics....
This is how a bonjwa is born.. ladies and gentelman we now think as flash as unbeatable.. he will win osl and msl.. if he plays at the top of HIS game..
this was savior when he had 80% in zvp this was oov when de went for his tvt run this was boxer when de was crushing everyone. this was nada.. this is the next bonjwa.. well if he wins..
you may like him or not but he really seems unbeatable in a straight up game when he is a the top of HIS game. his tvp may not be the best but it is good enough for getting him to the finals..
On January 01 2010 06:54 blade55555 wrote: God I pray that in MSL Jaedong vs flash Bo5 and flash loses because I don't think Flash will be able to cheese and win unless he wins 2 in a row then on his third cheeses. I honestly don't think Flash can beat Jaedong in a BO5 straight up. Of course if they do end up playing BO5 and Flash wins 3-0 or even wins I will be surprised regardless if he cheeses or not. Flash is good no doubt but I don't think he's "perfect" like you all seem to think ><.
LOL! So we think Flash is "perfect" while you think Jaedong would win despite him sucking like a n00b recently and Flash dominating everything? Makes perfectly sense!
On January 01 2010 09:13 Nal_rAwr wrote: in tvz, you need to guard your ramps with 2~3 lurkers, as flash has limited detection in the mid-game maybe put some stop lurkers around
also, scout well so you know when to build drones and expand, or when to go for units...
seriously i've seen what the zerg had to be doing in a game vs flash in order to win, and i'm sure he could be beaten someday....
I agree kinda, I thought the zerg who recently played Flash opened very good with 2-3 lurks and then mutas right after. Too bad he failed.
A single period of dominance is not enough to consider someone a bonjwa. If that were the case, both Bisu and Jaedong should have qualified by now.
Besides which, people were saying the same thing about Flash after he won Bacchus and not much came out of that. Let us wait and see if he actually wins another title before we continue this discussion.
On January 01 2010 09:20 Tom Phoenix wrote: A single period of dominance is not enough to consider someone a bonjwa. If that were the case, both Bisu and Jaedong should have qualified by now.
Besides which, people were saying the same thing about Flash after he won Bacchus and not much came out of that. Let us wait and see if he actually wins another title before we continue this discussion.
Neither Bisu nor Jaedong were ever as dominant as Flash currently is.
That's actually true. Flash is doing better in PL than Jaedong was, and while last season Jaedong was in a very similar position of being in the OSL semis and MSL ro8 split Bo5, the only, ONLY difference here is that when Jaedong was in both leagues like this, he was DOWN a game vs his MSL opponent (Canata) and Flash, on the other hand, happens to be up a game.
The real question is, how badly can Flash dominate Calm? If he can 3-1 him then he remains ahead of Jaedong in all technicality's sake. If he 3-0's him then he's definitively ahead. And obviously if he beats Best he atleast breaks even (Jaedong won 3-2, though it was a handily won 3-2 with losses only to canata's rushes)
It's funny because their tournaments are similar, too. Jaedong didn't have to play a protoss in OSL round of 8 last season either.
On January 01 2010 09:20 Tom Phoenix wrote: A single period of dominance is not enough to consider someone a bonjwa. If that were the case, both Bisu and Jaedong should have qualified by now.
Besides which, people were saying the same thing about Flash after he won Bacchus and not much came out of that. Let us wait and see if he actually wins another title before we continue this discussion.
Neither Bisu nor Jaedong were ever as dominant as Flash currently is.
uhhhh, what? The period of time when Jaedong won his 2nd and 3rd OSLs? Taek-Bang era?
Flash's most recent domination hasn't even lasted a league yet.
On January 01 2010 09:20 Tom Phoenix wrote: A single period of dominance is not enough to consider someone a bonjwa. If that were the case, both Bisu and Jaedong should have qualified by now.
Besides which, people were saying the same thing about Flash after he won Bacchus and not much came out of that. Let us wait and see if he actually wins another title before we continue this discussion.
Neither Bisu nor Jaedong were ever as dominant as Flash currently is.
uhhhh, what? The period of time when Jaedong won his 2nd and 3rd OSLs? Taek-Bang era?
Flash's most recent domination hasn't even lasted a league yet.
Well you have to take into account the period. Syncing up this season with last season (Jaedong has been most successful this year so that's fair to say), Flash is slightly ahead. He has to CONTINUE to win though to beat Jaedong's crushing wins last season.
Amusingly, the only people with more dominant seasons than Jaedong were the Bonjwas. It'd be cute if Flash crushed that dominance.
On January 01 2010 09:20 Tom Phoenix wrote: A single period of dominance is not enough to consider someone a bonjwa. If that were the case, both Bisu and Jaedong should have qualified by now.
Besides which, people were saying the same thing about Flash after he won Bacchus and not much came out of that. Let us wait and see if he actually wins another title before we continue this discussion.
Neither Bisu nor Jaedong were ever as dominant as Flash currently is.
uhhhh, what? The period of time when Jaedong won his 2nd and 3rd OSLs? Taek-Bang era?
Flash's most recent domination hasn't even lasted a league yet.
While true that it hasn't been very long, it has been more intense than Jaedong/Bisu ever were. Flash is 90% since the start of October, and he hasn't been playing bad players either.
I absolutely LOVE Flash but please let's stop throwing out the b-word
He needs to win both leagues and not slump immediately afterward to even start being considered. He feels really strong right now but you have to establish that feeling where it's just "there's no way he loses this series" and you have to keep it for a long, long time.
If he wins OSL and gets to the MSL finals and dominates JD we might be able to start talking, and even then just barely. I need to see him trounce Bisu/Stork too....
Just because Flash plays in an era where there are another incredible gamers:
Bisu, Jaedong, Stork, etc..
doesn't mean he can't be considered one of the best ever. It's like Tennis. Federer is constantly winning tournaments because there's no one in the field to stop him. He's surely the greatest ever right? Or maybe not.. Nadal shows up.
Just because he has super strong competition doesn't make him any less impressive than savior for instance.
On January 01 2010 10:19 Fzero wrote: Just because Flash plays in an era where there are another incredible gamers:
Bisu, Jaedong, Stork, etc..
doesn't mean he can't be considered one of the best ever. It's like Tennis. Federer is constantly winning tournaments because there's no one in the field to stop him. He's surely the greatest ever right? Or maybe not.. Nadal shows up.
Just because he has super strong competition doesn't make him any less impressive than savior for instance.
I don't disagree with you, but this is the argument used by legions of Jaedong anti-fans as to why he wasn't at that level during his run of dominance. The rabid anti-fans of this era make it damn near impossible to reach a consensus on a great player.
Incontrol would brutally rape that kid with his bare fist, i guess u just beat him up the same way as u would to other high school kid when ur at that age?
On January 01 2010 06:54 blade55555 wrote: God I pray that in MSL Jaedong vs flash Bo5 and flash loses because I don't think Flash will be able to cheese and win unless he wins 2 in a row then on his third cheeses. I honestly don't think Flash can beat Jaedong in a BO5 straight up. Of course if they do end up playing BO5 and Flash wins 3-0 or even wins I will be surprised regardless if he cheeses or not. Flash is good no doubt but I don't think he's "perfect" like you all seem to think ><.
With the map pool for the MSL, Flash could probably 3-0 Jaedong very easily.
On January 01 2010 11:39 Shizuru~ wrote: Incontrol would brutally rape that kid with his bare fist, i guess u just beat him up the same way as u would to other high school kid when ur at that age?
Or you are just a normal person who doesn't beat anyone up.
Beat Violet, Luxury constantly, and KT will have to abuse Flash again. Then MAYBE, just maybe you'll have a slight chance to knock him off. Other than that, he's Jesus.
On January 01 2010 10:19 Fzero wrote: Just because Flash plays in an era where there are another incredible gamers:
Bisu, Jaedong, Stork, etc..
doesn't mean he can't be considered one of the best ever. It's like Tennis. Federer is constantly winning tournaments because there's no one in the field to stop him. He's surely the greatest ever right? Or maybe not.. Nadal shows up.
Just because he has super strong competition doesn't make him any less impressive than savior for instance.
He's already one of the best players of all time (and definitely the greatest player ever to only win one league though that will hopefully change soon). He'll probably end up as the greatest Terran ever.
I'm just saying that he's not a bonjwa, which he isn't.
Bonjwa does not mean the best. Bonjwa is one of the weird and rare things that requires a lot of things to happen, many of which are out of a player's control.
On January 01 2010 05:08 lac29 wrote: Flash seems unstoppable this season. My question to you guys is:
What advice would you give to the current progamers on what they need to DO/CHANGE in order to beat Flash? I'm personally most interested in TvZ but pick whatever matchup you wanna talk about.
Cheesy builds seem to be the natural way to surprise a superior opponent or compensate for an inferior mid/late game. But Flash seems SO on top of opponents' cheese with his game sense that he always can force a mid/late game where few can match him. Should Flash opponents try even cheesier builds and all-ins to try to win early and avoid long drawn out matches? Do you think simply standard play with better mechanics can beat Flash? Are there unit combos /builds that might force Flash to play him less comfortable builds (he seems so comfortable with his M&M right now)?
Jump on him while he is not expectng it break all of his fingers and toes and pocke his eyes out after shoot him in the knee and maybe you will have a chance to beat him
well if he's playing TvP i would guess that the toss player would have to do some weird pushes and harrassment before flash gets out his usual timing push...
Seriously, just be a progamer who plays protoss. His TvP is only 58% in 09 and he's lost to BackHo, Shuttle, and Much, not to mention he's only 5-12 vs dragons this year.
As a Terran. Not possible. TvT is the most forgiving of matchups. In the end, the stronger players with the stronger mechanics and game sense wins. There is no Terran in existence that can match Flash in pure ability.
As a Zerg. Not possible. Have you seen Flash's TvZ? Every single last one of them were one sided rapes. In the two games that he lost, he screwed himself up due to incorrect turret placements, something that he pointed out himself.
The only possibility left is Protoss. PvT seems to favor P. As Flash has stated in his interview, he has lost his touch on TvP due to the lack of practice. But to be honest, the way that Flash is playing right now, I think only Stork, Bisu, Movie and Best are capable of taking games off Flash, and perhaps only Stork, the greatest PvT, is capable of defeating Flash in a BO5.
Right now, Flash is in Bonjwa mode. Very scary. If he overcomes Best, his chance of seizing double title is well in his favor.
Yeah I'm getting pretty sick of this insane Terran domination, when even newbies like Flash are making OSL finals then you know there's something seriously wrong with this race.
On January 01 2010 21:27 AzureEye wrote: Let Jaedong switch race to Terran and Flash turn his race into Zerg. Jaedong will beat him 100% then T >>>>>> Z
This is funny because Flash would trash any Protoss in existence easily if he could switch his and his opponent's races before-game. His Protoss vs Terran play is sublime. Or maybe PvT is just easy, you'll have to ask Flash about that.
Flash plays so sick TVZ im actually dumbfounded as to how you would beat him -.-. My suggestion is practice perfect muta vs marine control so you can hold him off til lategame then go hyper aggressive cause nothing zerg can do lategame beats the vesselclouds :p
On January 01 2010 21:27 AzureEye wrote: Let Jaedong switch race to Terran and Flash turn his race into Zerg. Jaedong will beat him 100% then T >>>>>> Z
Well that wouldn't be fair since Jaedong plays a pretty decent terran and I don't think Flash knows how to play zerg.
A better example would be Jaedong going terran and Flash going protoss since both players know how to play these races pretty well.
On January 01 2010 21:27 AzureEye wrote: Let Jaedong switch race to Terran and Flash turn his race into Zerg. Jaedong will beat him 100% then T >>>>>> Z
On January 01 2010 21:27 AzureEye wrote: Let Jaedong switch race to Terran and Flash turn his race into Zerg. Jaedong will beat him 100% then T >>>>>> Z
u have no fucking clue =)
damnit stop saying mean things while using smilies... I always cringe when I see that >.<
The only way I see someone beating Flash right now in TvZ is to set lurker traps in unexpected places and attack on multiple fronts. The minute he pushes out you do a doom drop or harass with mutas. Early Muta pressure is also probably the best idea like what Calm did on HBR.
On January 01 2010 21:27 AzureEye wrote: Let Jaedong switch race to Terran and Flash turn his race into Zerg. Jaedong will beat him 100% then T >>>>>> Z
This is funny because Flash would trash any Protoss in existence easily if he could switch his and his opponent's races before-game. His Protoss vs Terran play is sublime. Or maybe PvT is just easy, you'll have to ask Flash about that.
On January 01 2010 21:56 G3nXsiS wrote: The only way I see someone beating Flash right now in TvZ is to set lurker traps in unexpected places and attack on multiple fronts. The minute he pushes out you do a doom drop or harass with mutas. Early Muta pressure is also probably the best idea like what Calm did on HBR.
A strong protoss playing standart will beat him of course . If you are zerg you have to play perfect if you are a terran BBS and hope you scout him and Flash doesn't scout you ...
And people saying that Flash's streak of domimants is better then Jaedong's that is not true by a mile . Jaedong's dominant streak started around winners league last season , almost winning it by himself and at the same time winning OSL against fantasy . He then continued to dominate PL next round up until the finals and was also in the MSL semis and won his second consecutive OSL at the same time .
Flash i will give him credit last season he was toe to toe with Jaedong and at some point doing even better then him up until he droped the leagues and his team sadly didn't make it through the PL's final stages . While i do agree that Flash when he plays at his top he looks more unbeatable then Jaedong , but JD seems to carry the momentum a long way even when his streak of dominance seem's to be gone he isn't completely off the map and wins a league . If Flash can keep it up and win both leagues he would probably surpass Jaedong's streak of dominance .
That's why i think it is to early to compare their dominance and let Flash win at least the OSL which will happen unless Movie / Shine pull some kind of a miracle .
On January 01 2010 21:01 Heimatloser wrote: hidden expos, this is the answer. atleast thats what jeadong and best tried after stork was successfull with it.
Well Jaedong was the first to win against him with a hidden expo thought on rush hour 3 . Hidden expo is not really the answer . Flash already showed it against Best . Maybe it will get you a couple of wins , but Flash is to good of a player to fall for it twise . Like on iccup at low levels with my experience - protoss terrans and even in ZvZ players seem to go for the hidden expanion , banking on their expo not geting scouted and this kind of play pisses me the most , because why bother making an expansion if you don't have the units to defend it or you will not have them in a couple of minutes it is the same as cheesing to get an advantage .
On January 01 2010 23:19 raga4ka wrote: A strong protoss playing standart will beat him of course . If you are zerg you have to play perfect if you are a terran BBS and hope you scout him and Flash doesn't scout you ...
But that doesn't work! See Flash vs Iris in the GOM S3 grand-finals, where Iris cheesed all 4 games and somehow, Flash scouted each cheese almost instantly.
On January 01 2010 23:19 raga4ka wrote: A strong protoss playing standart will beat him of course . If you are zerg you have to play perfect if you are a terran BBS and hope you scout him and Flash doesn't scout you ...
But that doesn't work! See Flash vs Iris in the GOM S3 grand-finals, where Iris cheesed all 4 games and somehow, Flash scouted each cheese almost instantly.
Iris did't BBS or so i don't remember i don't know other cheese in TvT and i certainly don't remember Iris cheesing 2 fac is a standart build in TvT .
or best (i think it was) vs flash on fighting spirit
they won completely straight up and played better than flash
hes not immortal and hes not a working computer xDD he practices just like the other progamers. to be honest im just as impressed with bisu as i am with flash, and thats huge cause im almost never impressed with a toss gamer
On January 02 2010 02:06 7mk wrote: btw how did hyun beat flash? didnt catch that game
Flash's last three TvZ losses, including that game, were mainly due to slipups in his muta defense (or, if you will, very sharp muta play by his opponents). Hyun also took a ninja expo.
On January 01 2010 05:13 lac29 wrote: So you think the only way Flash will lose this season is if he beats himself or makes mistakes?
I predict that if he makes no mistakes, he will win.
That pretty much applies to any player. It's not possible to lose without making mistakes unless it's just a complete build order win (in which case the mistake was choosing the wrong build).
For those who claim that TvZ imbalanced: the combined TvZ win rate for this season's OSL, MSL and Proleague games so far is 52.8% if you count Flash's games and 46.3% if you don't. Essentially, Flash is single-handedly responsible for the balance of this matchup right now.
If anything, TvZ is very slightly zerg favored at the moment and any terran nerfing would make the matchup impossible for everyone except Flash. The big question is whether other terrans can rise to Flash's level? Given how a number of zergs almost caught up with Jaedong in 2009, I wouldn't call it impossible. But they better get on it soon.
Always the top player who's dominating makes the game imbalanced. You just need to play better than Flash in every aspect of the game. Not just use gimmick nuild. You need to have innovative build, great decision making, game sense, control, macro and win the mind games with Flash. The only problem is that Flashis currently playing at such level that it is really hard to outplay/outsmart him...
On January 02 2010 02:32 okum wrote: For those who claim that TvZ imbalanced: the combined TvZ win rate for this season's OSL, MSL and Proleague games so far is 52.8% if you count Flash's games and 46.3% if you don't. Essentially, Flash is single-handedly responsible for the balance of this matchup right now.
If anything, TvZ is very slightly zerg favored at the moment and any terran nerfing would make the matchup impossible for everyone except Flash. The big question is whether other terrans can rise to Flash's level? Given how a number of zergs almost caught up with Jaedong in 2009, I wouldn't call it impossible. But they better get on it soon.
Well, what's the stats after you take off the best ZvT player as well?
PvT try to get into late game and eat the map, trade bases if you have to and recall your ass off. ZvT I;m not so sure but id say really good muta harass would mess with him as i saw when he played ... wow, I forgot who he played i think it was on tornado? TvT i have no idea, dont follow that matchup really
On January 02 2010 09:39 SynC[gm] wrote: Was there the same thread like this when Jaedong was owning everyone, including FlaSh? I don't think so, so what is the point of this thread...?
Jaedong wasn't owning as bad as Flash is. Flash is sth like 35 out of 40 and is close to break 2400 elo.
But yeah... The time will come eventually and someone will beat Flash... I just hope it won't be Jaedong (at least not this season) as Jaedong fans would go into crazy fanboy mode and will pick again at Flash for eliminating Jaedong from OSL.
I'd say bring back the good old fashion 1 Hatch Lurker against Flash before he get Scans up, place Lurkers at his Barracks so it kills units as it spawns.
Flash is just on fire, obviously people will catch on sooner or later but right now? Only by PvT, and Flash's TvP is still better than most Terrans even at a suboptimal level.
On January 02 2010 03:47 Avidkeystamper wrote: Well, what's the stats after you take off the best ZvT player as well?
I'd be interested in knowing this as well.
Well the funny thing is I can't even call to mind who the best ZvT is right now. Effort? JD? It's not even close to as dominant as Flash I don't think.
On January 02 2010 11:42 AraqirG wrote: I keep hearing people mention flash's protoss is pretty sick. Are there any replays or vods?
On January 02 2010 03:47 Avidkeystamper wrote: Well, what's the stats after you take off the best ZvT player as well?
I'd be interested in knowing this as well.
Well the funny thing is I can't even call to mind who the best ZvT is right now. Effort? JD? It's not even close to as dominant as Flash I don't think.
according to TLPD the order is: JD effort Yarnc Calm ZerO
but yarnc is playing like complete garbage right now and just hasnt played a lot in a while to bring his ELO down.
I would probably agree with those rankings for the most part, although effort is not nearly as good vs mech as the others, and ZerO/Calm both played extremely impressively vs Flash. I would like to see how effort would do vs flash right now (as playing vs flash is without a doubt the best way to judge how someone is vs Terran). I think Calm is only the 4th best in a single game but probably the 2nd best in a series.
well, he just crushed jd, zero and calm. with the exception of maybe effort, flash has just recently destroyed all the top zergs. i got the impression that jds zvt isnt in top shape atm, so maybe if he improves it a bit he could be a threat to flash in a possible msl finals, but other than that, i dont think any zerg could beat flash in a bo3/bo5 right now.
ok, so zerg is not the answer. in tvt he is unbeatable anyway, so the only option left is to play protoss. but maybe flashs current "suboptimal performance" against toss is simply the result of facing almost no tosses? who says his tvp is inherently deficient? i can very well imagine its as strong as his tvz if he invests enough practice time into it. he just didnt have to do so thus far, as he was almost exclusively tearing through terrans and zergs.
i think Best in the msl might be the best chance left to beat flash this season + Show Spoiler +
despite being one game down!
, but in general i think the best bet would be stork and bisu. both eliminated though, so imho not much is standing between flash and a double starleague win this season.
If you're a Zerg, beat him in the early game. When July ended oov's TvZ dominance he always won before oov took a 3rd. Once Flash's macro starts up it's unstoppable.
honestly i think flash looks so unbeatable right now because when a terran is playing so far above everyone else it just looks far more unbeatable than if a protoss(bisu) or zerg(JD) were doing the same. I think that inheriently it's harder for a zerg to beat a better terran player than the other way around.
a few months ago when flash 1st started his streak I didnt think much of it because he didnt really have to play any of the top zergs and they were all in individual games. after last night though he's totally proven to me that he just truly is at another level right now. it's back to where he was 20 months ago where he just completely crushed everyone he played with his macro, except now thanks to fantasy's "late game mass tank" strat he's even more unstoppable.
On January 02 2010 12:38 lavion wrote: the best way for a zerg to beat flash is to STOP BEING SO BLOODY GREEDY.
dont' skip sunk fast hatch fast hive
just play standard and hope for the best
best player wins... which is most likely flash at the moment
People need every advantage they can get vs flash, so I wholeheartedly disagree with this. Also I dont think getting a fast hive means being greedy And what do you mean with "dont fast hatch" dont go 12 hatch? get your 3rd hatch later? both probably bad advice
On January 02 2010 12:38 lavion wrote: the best way for a zerg to beat flash is to STOP BEING SO BLOODY GREEDY.
dont' skip sunk fast hatch fast hive
just play standard and hope for the best
best player wins... which is most likely flash at the moment
People need every advantage they can get vs flash, so I wholeheartedly disagree with this. Also I dont think getting a fast hive means being greedy And what do you mean with "dont fast hatch" dont go 12 hatch? get your 3rd hatch later? both probably bad advice
what i meant was something like set 4 of calm vs flash
Alright first post time. I watched a recent game where flash scouted a greater spire and went for three port wraiths against (I forgot the name of the zerg). Thats when I got the idea that what if instead of actually morphing the mutas into gaurdians just leave the greater spire there as a fake and go for lurkers and some scourge because flash will have used up a lot of minerals building wraiths to counter what he thought were going to be gaurdians. Of course this only works if he actually goes for the wraiths
On January 02 2010 02:32 okum wrote: For those who claim that TvZ imbalanced: the combined TvZ win rate for this season's OSL, MSL and Proleague games so far is 52.8% if you count Flash's games and 46.3% if you don't. Essentially, Flash is single-handedly responsible for the balance of this matchup right now.
If anything, TvZ is very slightly zerg favored at the moment and any terran nerfing would make the matchup impossible for everyone except Flash. The big question is whether other terrans can rise to Flash's level? Given how a number of zergs almost caught up with Jaedong in 2009, I wouldn't call it impossible. But they better get on it soon.
First off, Flash is a fucking beast. Overall this season in the MSL, OSL and PL, he is 20-3 making for an ungodly 87% TvZ win rate this season.
Anyway, As okum pointed out, overall, TvZ is around 52.8% this season. If you remove Flash and Jaedong from the data, its 47.4% but that isn't really fair considering how many more TvZs Flash played than Jaedong. Additionally, Jaedong wasn't great at TvZ this season, going 4-3. Effort did much better with a 7-2 record in TvZ. If we exclude effort instead, TvZ this season would be 48.2%
Note: I'm not great with numbers so someone might wanna check my math.
On January 02 2010 12:38 lavion wrote: the best way for a zerg to beat flash is to STOP BEING SO BLOODY GREEDY.
dont' skip sunk fast hatch fast hive
just play standard and hope for the best
best player wins... which is most likely flash at the moment
People need every advantage they can get vs flash, so I wholeheartedly disagree with this. Also I dont think getting a fast hive means being greedy And what do you mean with "dont fast hatch" dont go 12 hatch? get your 3rd hatch later? both probably bad advice
what i meant was something like set 4 of calm vs flash
Still doesn't make sense. Calm was the opposite of greedy in set four.
On January 02 2010 02:32 okum wrote: For those who claim that TvZ imbalanced: the combined TvZ win rate for this season's OSL, MSL and Proleague games so far is 52.8% if you count Flash's games and 46.3% if you don't. Essentially, Flash is single-handedly responsible for the balance of this matchup right now.
If anything, TvZ is very slightly zerg favored at the moment and any terran nerfing would make the matchup impossible for everyone except Flash. The big question is whether other terrans can rise to Flash's level? Given how a number of zergs almost caught up with Jaedong in 2009, I wouldn't call it impossible. But they better get on it soon.
Looking at just this season's data doesn't mean anything. You have to look at the bigger picture, look at the entire 10 years of TvZ. Because metagame will always evolve. And Terrans have raped Zergs in the past, the rape is just temporarily gone for now
From looking at how long Zergs have been getting dominated, despite their new ways to change up the game by creating new styles, Zergs have never dominated Terrans for as long as Terrans have dominated Zergs.
Unless Blizzard miraculously decides to change the actual units or gameplay of Terran and Zerg, TvZ will always remain imbalanced. That imbalance is reduced when a better Zerg player (i.e. Jaedong) plays a Terran or a map that heavily favors Zerg but it will always be there. This is why players like Effort or JD have to fight uphill battles vs. Terrans
Still doesn't make sense. Calm was the opposite of greedy in set four.
did you see how few lurkers he had against flash's push? did you see how few zerglings he had too? calm tried to power extremely hard by adding more hatcheries and tech, but not enough units to stop flash's push.
the 'opposite of greedy' would have overproduced zerglings + lurkers, foregoing additional tech and drones.
watch the VOD. the standard 3tank/1vessel hanbang from the terran smashed calm in the face cause he didnt have nearly enough units to stop it.
On January 02 2010 02:32 okum wrote: For those who claim that TvZ imbalanced: the combined TvZ win rate for this season's OSL, MSL and Proleague games so far is 52.8% if you count Flash's games and 46.3% if you don't. Essentially, Flash is single-handedly responsible for the balance of this matchup right now.
If anything, TvZ is very slightly zerg favored at the moment and any terran nerfing would make the matchup impossible for everyone except Flash. The big question is whether other terrans can rise to Flash's level? Given how a number of zergs almost caught up with Jaedong in 2009, I wouldn't call it impossible. But they better get on it soon.
Looking at just this season's data doesn't mean anything. You have to look at the bigger picture, look at the entire 10 years of TvZ. Because metagame will always evolve. And Terrans have raped Zergs in the past, the rape is just temporarily gone for now
From looking at how long Zergs have been getting dominated, despite their new ways to change up the game by creating new styles, Zergs have never dominated Terrans for as long as Terrans have dominated Zergs.
Unless Blizzard miraculously decides to change the actual units or gameplay of Terran and Zerg, TvZ will always remain imbalanced. That imbalance is reduced when a better Zerg player (i.e. Jaedong) plays a Terran or a map that heavily favors Zerg but it will always be there. This is why players like Effort or JD have to fight uphill battles vs. Terrans
ya lets look at statistics from before muta micro and hive abuse to determine modern balance! that makes perfect sense! zergs used to do badly because their innovators came later than the terran's. nada and oov showed t's relatively modern tvz years before savior/ggplay/jaedong came and fixed zvt. looking at statistics from pre-muta micro and pre-hive abuse games in order to talk about current zvt is fucking retarded.
and theres absolutely no reason to assume the metagame will swing back in terrans favor as the improvements in zvt are not something fragile or counterable, theyre solid improvements in general gameplay that will not go away. its like terran going from one base openings to fe. people just got flat out better at the matchup.
EPT
