PuMa to hite SPARKYZ

On December 30 2009 16:20 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
lotsa pro teams interested in this guy he is hella good

On December 30 2009 16:40 Empyrean wrote:
If he finds breaking into the A team because of Upmagic and Really difficult, why does he think it'll be any easier competing against go.go and Leta?

On December 30 2009 16:46 Artosis wrote:


because it will be. you cant compare those 2 to upmagic and really.
despite what any foreigner's impression of the 2 estro terrans is, really is considered by every progamer in korea as top 5 terran in the world, and upmagic is like leta, except hes better.

puma is actually one of the most asked-for players to practice vs by top progamers.

On December 30 2009 16:46 Artosis wrote:
despite what any foreigner's impression of the 2 estro terrans is, really is considered by every progamer in korea as top 5 terran in the world

On December 30 2009 16:55 EvilTeletubby wrote:


I know you have a lot of estro bias Dan, but... seriously??

Edit - Not trying to doubt you or take away anything from Really, he's actually been one of my favorite's to watch recently, but I just find that really hard to believe (no pun intended).

On December 30 2009 16:59 IdrA wrote:

protip:
when people who know something about gaming have opinions, and yours differ from theirs, you should reevaluate your opinions before questioning theirs.

On December 30 2009 17:02 GTR wrote:


Sea
i like Really but when he loses to players like MuJuK it makes me go

On December 30 2009 17:22 Whiplash wrote:
You guys seem to be forgetting Fantasy.

On December 30 2009 16:46 Artosis wrote:


because it will be. you cant compare those 2 to upmagic and really.
despite what any foreigner's impression of the 2 estro terrans is, really is considered by every progamer in korea as top 5 terran in the world, and upmagic is like leta, except hes better.

puma is actually one of the most asked-for players to practice vs by top progamers.

On December 30 2009 17:24 Artosis wrote:
leta cannot be listed with players like fantasy, sea, flash, etc.

leta....he did so well on the back of gimicy build orders. yes, he did well, congrats to him for that. but if he faces an S class player in a bo5, hes should fall every single time.

On December 30 2009 17:28 motbob wrote:

But Really hadn't even been in a Bo5 with an s-class progamer.

Hell, he hasn't even made it into the Ro16 of any leagues.

Also, Leta beat Really twice in the same day very recently.

On December 30 2009 17:31 rei wrote:
Artosis leta was the one pwned flash last OSL yes?

On December 30 2009 17:33 Artosis wrote:


what kind of build did he end the series with? was it one that showed he was a better player, or one that double underlined what i said about him?

On December 30 2009 17:14 EvilTeletubby wrote:


Hey Greg,

No shit. Was it that hard to figure out I was looking for him to elaborate (which he immediately did)? buthnxforyourprotipthoughgreatlyappreciatedkk.

On December 30 2009 17:35 Chaos- wrote:


I think it was one that won the game

On December 30 2009 17:36 IdrA wrote:

you say he has estro bias
"seriously??"
"i just find that really hard to believe"
ya you werent questioning him at all.

if you wanted him to elaborate you would say "well thats interesting could you explain why you think that?" not "well i find that hard to believe and you're biased"

On December 30 2009 17:38 We Are Here wrote:
i think youre missing his point

On December 30 2009 17:40 o[twist] wrote:
the point is one can reasonably say it's better to play gimmicky and win then to play the preferred macro style and lose

On December 30 2009 17:41 EvilTeletubby wrote:
Yes, because you're the example we all turn to when asking for things in a straight forward and polite manner.

On December 30 2009 17:43 bluemanrocks wrote:

i think the point is that this is only true in a very temporary sense, whereas artosis/others are referring to macro styles as more solid in the long run--you can work the kinks out of standard play, but quirky play is built on kinks, so you can never solidify, standardize, or guarantee longstanding high level performance based on gimmicks and gimmicks alone.

On December 30 2009 17:43 bluemanrocks wrote:

i think the point is that this is only true in a very temporary sense, whereas artosis/others are referring to macro styles as more solid in the long run--you can work the kinks out of standard play, but quirky play is built on kinks, so you can never solidify, standardize, or guarantee longstanding high level performance based on gimmicks and gimmicks alone.

edit: RIGHT sorry to contribute to derailing, i just got caught up in this little debacle that seems to be going on. good for puma! moving up in the world is a good thing, and imo thats what hes doing by moving from estro to hite. glhf puma!

On December 30 2009 17:40 o[twist] wrote:
the point is one can reasonably say it's better to play gimmicky and win then to play the preferred macro style and lose

On December 30 2009 17:43 bluemanrocks wrote:

i think the point is that this is only true in a very temporary sense, whereas artosis/others are referring to macro styles as more solid in the long run--you can work the kinks out of standard play, but quirky play is built on kinks, so you can never solidify, standardize, or guarantee longstanding high level performance based on gimmicks and gimmicks alone.

edit: RIGHT sorry to contribute to derailing, i just got caught up in this little debacle that seems to be going on. good for puma! moving up in the world is a good thing, and imo thats what hes doing by moving from estro to hite. glhf puma!

On December 30 2009 17:43 bluemanrocks wrote:

i think the point is that this is only true in a very temporary sense, whereas artosis/others are referring to macro styles as more solid in the long run--you can work the kinks out of standard play, but quirky play is built on kinks, so you can never solidify, standardize, or guarantee longstanding high level performance based on gimmicks and gimmicks alone.

On December 30 2009 17:47 o[twist] wrote:


this sounds great logically but i'm not sure it's supported by any evidence. macro players are just as streaky in terms of their actual performance, whereas a truly gimmicky player burns out much more quickly than e.g. leta (think horang2 or lucifer imo). i think this is above all a way to carry a banner for players who don't put up good numbers and put down players who do

On December 30 2009 17:48 Artosis wrote:


actually, every bonjwa, ever, was an entirely macro oriented player. this includes foreigner bonjwas.

On December 30 2009 17:44 rei wrote:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

On December 30 2009 17:48 Artosis wrote:
actually, every bonjwa, ever, was an entirely macro oriented player. this includes foreigner bonjwas.

On December 30 2009 17:49 EvilTeletubby wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm


And no Greg, I wasn't attempting to be overly polite, just matter-of-factly if nothing else. Anyways, Artosis seemed to know exactly what I was looking for, and responded in kind.

On December 30 2009 17:49 o[twist] wrote:


good thing nobody in this thread is suggesting either leta or really will be bonjwa then. or are you saying puma will be lol

On December 30 2009 17:58 EvilTeletubby wrote:
Right - So you butting in served no purpose. Anyways, I don't want to derail the thread any further... if you want to respond please PM me.

On December 30 2009 17:57 We Are Here wrote:
his suggesting that a strong macro oriented player is a better overall player than a player that relies on gimmicky builds. his using the past bonjwas to prove this points, so what are you on about

On December 30 2009 17:58 Ganfei wrote:
lol "sc is far too complex for such a simple rating system"

yeah, well word of mouth and inhouse results may be more complex but nobody gives a shit. put up or shutup. no results = nobody cares. Yeah, some little Romanian kid might be the next bonjwa, he has potential, doesn't mean he's top 5 world of all time.

On December 30 2009 18:15 IdrA wrote:
actually it means that theyre really good players. which is what we're talking about here.

also really isnt like the practice bonjwas who are held back by nerves. hes simply a player with a solid style and massive mechanical skill with some rough edges on his play. as you can see by improved results and cleaner games hes refining his play, so in his case the massive skill is very likely to translate into results in the future.

On December 30 2009 17:48 Artosis wrote:


actually, every bonjwa, ever, was an entirely macro oriented player. this includes foreigner bonjwas.

On December 30 2009 18:26 darktreb wrote:
Artosis and Idra - if you guys were forced to put all your money on a Terran being better than Flash a year from now, who would you put it on?

On December 30 2009 18:26 darktreb wrote:
Artosis and Idra - if you guys were forced to put all your money on a Terran being better than Flash a year from now, who would you put it on?

On December 30 2009 18:48 d(O.o)a wrote:
I like how this thread about puma is about really and leta.

On December 30 2009 18:27 icystorage wrote:

any proof of that? O.o

On December 30 2009 19:07 MuffinDude wrote:
Hite really needs a better protoss lineup.

On December 30 2009 19:16 2minutevictory wrote:


no they don't
horang2 is good. good at abusing carriers and dts that is.

which is all the good you need imo.

anyways, i hope puma can play some PL matches over at hite, i wanna see how good he is

On December 30 2009 19:16 2minutevictory wrote:


no they don't
horang2 is good. good at abusing carriers and dts that is.

which is all the good you need imo.

anyways, i hope puma can play some PL matches over at hite, i wanna see how good he is

On December 30 2009 19:17 IdrA wrote:
or you could, you know, watch him play.

On December 30 2009 20:21 GTR wrote:
IIRC wasn't Leta an oG merc (before he came super known) along with Jang (Up's Brother) and Up himself?

On December 30 2009 20:40 MYM.Testie wrote:


Yes. He even beat me in a game on 815 where he predicted my build. And despite me knowing how to stop his build he did something previous opponents hadn't. He went m/m but stimmed his marines all the way across the map so that they reached me with red hp but just seconds before my cannon morphed to win him the game. If they had arrived seconds later, he would have been utterly crushed. Afterwards I thought, 'oh you clever devil.' At that time, Really didn't have the game smarts or the know how to exploit and predict builds like that. He simply would not have thought of stimming his marines across the map asap and entering an opponents base with low hp marines.

On December 30 2009 20:56 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:

This sounds crazy. If you can find this rep that would be awesome.

On December 30 2009 19:35 icystorage wrote:


oh sure, you do know what happens when sparkyz players practice and what build leta uses during practice

On December 30 2009 22:39 Piy wrote:
Hey remember that Puma guy? I've heard he's pretty good and going to Hite.

On December 30 2009 22:08 vnlegend wrote:
Nada also stimmed his marines across Arkanoid to take a game off of Savior in OSL finals.

On December 30 2009 17:14 EvilTeletubby wrote:


Hey Greg,

No shit. Was it that hard to figure out I was looking for him to elaborate (which he immediately did)? buthnxforyourprotipthoughgreatlyappreciatedkk.

On December 31 2009 00:52 Mortality wrote:


Yes, but there's a reason why NaDa is called the "Genius Terran" and it's not for nothing.



Idra and Artosis: hearsay is fine for when you're talking about who you think is on the up and who you think is going down, but rating the better players off it?

Back around 2006 already there was a lot of hearsay about NaDa not being so great anymore. Who won an OSL in late 2006? Who was the first Terran to beat Savior in a bo5?


Lately I think Really is starting to show potential -- after years of being a punching bag in proleague. Leta's performance has not been the same since the proleague finals last summer and we'll have to see if this is a bump in the road or if he's going to fail, but this little "crash" is happening after spending a year as one of the top -- if not THE top -- proleague ace and a lot of excited talk about Leta being "the next big thing" in e-sports magazines.

I have a serious question for you two: can you offer up any evidence besides hearsay to support your claim or are you just hating on Leta's style?

On December 30 2009 17:44 Garnet wrote:
Really is a macro beast. Leta is like an A player that pwn all D,C,B players easy but could never reach A+ for some reason. Probably A is his maximum already.

On December 31 2009 01:14 GreEny K wrote:


Lol... Are you seriously that Leta can't get A+ on iCCup... No offense to idra but if he can, I think it's a safe assumption that Leta can. Or even worse, leta is not the same rank as mOrrow, Octzerg or whoever else made it to A rank on ladder.

On December 31 2009 01:29 heyoka wrote:


How did this joke get no love? Best part of the thread by far.

On December 30 2009 16:46 Artosis wrote:


because it will be. you cant compare those 2 to upmagic and really.
despite what any foreigner's impression of the 2 estro terrans is, really is considered by every progamer in korea as top 5 terran in the world, and upmagic is like leta, except hes better.

puma is actually one of the most asked-for players to practice vs by top progamers.

On December 31 2009 01:17 We Are Here wrote:
what he means is that leta probably has already hit the ceiling, his already peaked in terms of skill and wont ever become S-Class or win a starleague. whereas really is still rising through the ranks (not saying he will become s-class or anything, but time will tell)

On December 31 2009 01:47 Zozma wrote:
But you've also said that you think Leta's mechanics are weak. Setting aside whether that's true or not, accepting the proposition that his mechanics are weak means that he can still improve further by working on his mechanics, right? So you can't have it both ways.

On December 31 2009 02:05 roMAD wrote:
I always thought that Leta would never be something really good, because of his weak mechanics. Really's TvP is insane, although his TvZ seems rather bad. Same goes to PuMa actually. He has solid TvT and good TvP, but his TvZ seems really bad.

On December 31 2009 02:12 We Are Here wrote:
well it comes down to who has more room for improvement, really polishing his flaws in game and leta improving his mechanics. its of my opinion that really has more potential to improve and this discussion is going nowhere -_-

On December 31 2009 02:12 We Are Here wrote:
well it comes down to who has more room for improvement, really polishing his flaws in game and leta improving his mechanics. its of my opinion that really has more potential to improve and this discussion is going nowhere -_-

i havent seen pumas tvsp, but i managed to watch a few of his tvsts and it seemed real good. does he have any notable games vs p?

On December 31 2009 02:18 o[twist] wrote:


room for improvement is not a standard measure of skill; maybe we can say one player is better than the other once the improvement is actualized

Well, i only watched his replays, but even in TLPD he has wins vs really good opponents.

On December 31 2009 02:22 yhnmk wrote:
I can def see why puma would be intimidated by Really, whos a fucking beast. But upmagic? Dude just a mediocre gimmicky player. Hes not a better leta, hes a worse leta. Oh well, if Puma is actually respected and seen to have potential, then I suppose he does have a valid chance of taking spots from go.go who is kinda meh.

On December 31 2009 02:21 We Are Here wrote:
i tried searching puma in the replays section and nothing showed, any idea where i can find these replays?

On December 30 2009 17:41 EvilTeletubby wrote:


Yes, because you're the example we all turn to when asking for things in a straight forward and polite manner.

On December 31 2009 02:22 yhnmk wrote:
But upmagic? Dude just a mediocre gimmicky player.

On December 30 2009 17:24 Artosis wrote:
leta cannot be listed with players like fantasy, sea, flash, etc.

leta....he did so well on the back of gimicy build orders. yes, he did well, congrats to him for that. but if he faces an S class player in a bo5, hes should fall every single time.

On December 31 2009 03:29 Silentness wrote:


*head explodes* Upmagic is mediocre? I don't think so...

On December 31 2009 04:05 GreEny K wrote:


Definition of Mediocre : of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad
Which is is, he isnt anything special...

On December 31 2009 08:11 Neivler wrote:
Thought it said PutMe to hite SPARKYZ

On December 31 2009 02:12 We Are Here wrote:
well it comes down to who has more room for improvement, really polishing his flaws in game and leta improving his mechanics. its of my opinion that really has more potential to improve and this discussion is going nowhere -_-

On December 31 2009 05:31 rei wrote:
Both IdrA and artosis see themselves as the same Style as Really, and they are using their personal experience to support their claim that if Leta goes up against Really, the later is surely going to win more games over a spend of 20 games let's say.

However the rest of us does not see that evidence, we have no personal experience to watch him first hand. The closest we can come to what idra and artosis experienced is to watch Really's live matches on youtube, then again we still can not make an informed assessment on his play because we just do not process the knowledge to distinguish the difference in mechanics between Leta and Really. Therefore, the only logical argument the rest of us can make without the experience of idra and artosis is from their record on TLPD. Which suggest to us Leta is the better player. Like testie said, Leta's records are better, and against better competition, that is fact. What do we do when we have credible evidence on both sides of an argument? We find a way to come up with a theory that incorporates both side of the argument and create a scenario that the evidences are no longer opposing each other (Famous example is quantum mechanic and Eistine's relativity)

That being said, i like to go along with testie's theory in which leta is better in the past, but really has improved to a point where everybody thinks he's the next big thing, but still hasn't achieve his rightful places on the OSL and MSL. Which satisfies both evidences of being top 5 terran right now, and yet inferior to leta on the TLPD.

On December 31 2009 17:17 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
leta's a chump by the way

On December 31 2009 17:17 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
leta's a chump by the way

On December 31 2009 18:15 tonight wrote:
what's this thread about again? Oh, it's about Puma. Yeah, he's an ok kid in my books. Get get 'em, Puma.

On December 31 2009 17:47 Imagist wrote:
I'm a bit more curious as to why we keep seeing these player transfers rather than trades - similarly to CJ sending Kwanro to Woongjin, what's Estro's interest in shipping PuMa off to the Sparkyz in exchange for nothing but a salary reduction on the team?

On December 31 2009 17:47 Imagist wrote:
I'm a bit more curious as to why we keep seeing these player transfers rather than trades - similarly to CJ sending Kwanro to Woongjin, what's Estro's interest in shipping PuMa off to the Sparkyz in exchange for nothing but a salary reduction on the team?

On January 10 2010 14:47 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Well, might as well bump this too. >_>

On January 10 2010 14:47 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Well, might as well bump this too. >_>

On January 11 2010 13:04 ThunderGod wrote:

Poll: Who is most deserving to be ranked in the top 5 Terrans right now?
(Vote): Fantasy
(Vote): Sea
(Vote): Really
(Vote): Leta
(Vote): Hwasin
(Vote): Light