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This is a rant blog. You've been warned.
This is really kind of getting ridiculous. This forum's community has largely destroyed TL, in my opinion. I can't stand hanging around anywhere but the SC2 and BW strategy forums, blogs, and SC2 custom maps forum.
The BW general forum has become depressing. Every other article is something new about the whole Blizzard vs KeSPA thing or some other progamer retiring and/or going to SC2. Just by skimming through the titles, you can feel BW's pro scene's vitality slowly slipping away.
The SC2 general forum is absolutely terrible. There are so many idiot posters there. If there's some bad thread proposing some change to make the game even easier to play and thus make it a more "strategic" and "thinking" game, then it turns into a 20 page shitfest between the SC2 fanboys who've never played BW, and the BW fans like myself who can't help but speak out against such shortsightedness. Somehow, it even feels like the innocent threads with interviews or news articles in them end up with small little shitfests as well. It's ridiculous.
I'm going to talk about myself as a fan of StarCraft. I started following the pro scene in fall 2007 (pretty recent, I know). I'd started playing the game again with some of my Korean friends, who were fiercely competitive with one another over it. While playing with them, they showed me pro VODs. Then the GOM Star Invitational happened, and thanks to Tasteless, I found TL as well as the jon747 channel. This was when everything exploded. I was watching half a dozen VODs a day and started lurking on TL. God, remember the old TL front page? lol. It totally turned me off to the site for a while before I got used to it (mad props to everyone who made the new one possible way back when, btw).
Anyway, BW largely dominated my interest after that. I stopped following other sports and really just kept up with BW, even, lol. What's funny is that my parents didn't even mind, whenever I went back to stay with them. They could tell listening to the Korean commentating was improving my terrible Korean.
Then the bomb dropped: SC2.
I know how everyone felt when SC2 was announced. It was a mix of excitement, anticipation, and, most importantly, a surprise and severe disappointment that it wouldn't be a 3d port of Brood War.
The newer players coming in don't really seem to realize how important BW is to SC2, and just how important and foundational BW is to this community. It's really disappointing to see this community, which was built on BW, turn into one where any members at all would daresay BW should just die, or ignore the great influence of the game. Nazgul himself put it best in another thread:
On November 14 2010 12:23 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
If you see people saying they want BW to just die let me know it's not a comment we appreciate on here. This site has built everything it is with BW for people to just come in and make comments like that is ridiculous.
I'll forgive his lack of punctuation for the frank truth in his words.
Despite that, I get replies back in threads calling me an old-timer who can't let go of the past and for not being able to let go of a ten-year-old game that's lived its course and is being succeeded by a superior game...
It's actually starting to get very irritating, so I'm going to spell out exactly why we always compare SC2 to BW.
For some on this side of the community, competitive level BW has been a part of their gaming lives for nearly ten years. Most probably went in and out of the scene. I've been following it for the past three years or so. It's an amazing game. I used to be a more or less avid gamer. But then BW made me stop playing other games. Even now, SC2 and watching BW VODs pretty much makes up the gaming aspect of my life.
There is no denying BW is a great game. It's lasted for ten years, has the most developed competitive scene of any game, even now, and is just an incredibly fun game no matter how you look at it. It's fun to play, and is apparently still fun to play even after ten years.
When SC2 was announced, there was at first quite a bit of excitement here at TL. Lots of new people came pouring in and the community, which had been pretty small, suddenly grew (I guess I'm part of this group, since I registered well after SC2 was announced). However, people quickly began to realize what the release of SC2 would mean. SC2 means, eventually, no more BW. SC2 is not just the sequel, but the successor to BW. It's the game that's somehow supposed to replace BW, and we see that slowly happening now.
Unfortunately, and rather tragically, there's really no stopping this. From what I've gathered, the BW community outside of Korea was dying, and it was only the announcement of SC2 that really revitalized foreign interest in BW. However, now that the game has actually been released, we're seeing all the players, even myself, stop playing BW and start playing SC2. Let's face it, it's a lot easier to play the game, and it's a hell of a lot easier to find matches (bnet2.0 matchmaking is amazing). Plus it's shiny.
Now we approach my big point: this is precisely why the BW camp is so critical of SC2. It's exactly, and for no other reason than, because SC2 is going to replace BW that we both hate it so much and want it to succeed so badly. It HAS to be as good as BW. No old BW fan loves SC2 yet. It hasn't been out long enough. It's a good and fun game, so we like it. On the other hand, we love BW. When we argue against the SC2 fanboys in those terrible SC2 general shitfests, we're arguing for implementing into SC2 the things that set BW apart and made it great. Sure, we can't just port over the entire game, but we can hope the other things that made it great can make SC2 great as well.
SC2 has a lot riding on it. Every major game reviewer out there mentions this in their articles. They all talk about the big shoes SC2 has to fill, being the next generation of BW. One review I read even went as far as to say that SC2 will never have the lasting impact and influence BW had. BW was just that big. + Show Spoiler +(This is probably why I (and probably we all) are so hostile to the SC2 fanboy camp - to be honest, it's borderline offensive to be told off by a bunch of kids who've never extensively played BW about how SC2 should play...)
If SC2 doesn't end up lasting for ten years before getting killed off by the announcement of SC3, it will truly be a tragedy. It will not only be the death of a decent game (from what my early impressions of the game have told me), but it will have taken BW with it.
SC2 is, whether any of us like it or not, set to be the new BW. BW is going to die. KeSPA is at the breaking point. I can't even delude myself into thinking there will be an '11-'12 proleague. MSL is done and who knows how many more OSLs there will be.
And so, as an avid BW fan, let me just go ahead and say that StarCraft 2 had better end up being a worthy replacement to BW, and not just be a decent game in and of itself.
Mini-rant.+ Show Spoiler + This is just a quick and messy mini-rant about what I think is holding SC2 back atm.
To be completely honest, it's actually really just two things: the dumbed down to hell mechanics, and the hard counter unit balancing.
The game is not hard to play. In BW, there were only a few Quarks out there, who could get to B+ with clever gameplay to make up for low APM. In SC2, macro is just a matter of mashing some buttons after hitting a hotkey. You don't see many people asking for help with macro techniques, which was nearly every other thread back in the day in the BW strategy section. With automine, setting up your economy is just, again, a matter of pressing a few keys.
This has essentially devolved SC2, in my opinion, into what is pretty much just a timing game. Everything is about timing now, and not much else. Everyone macros well. If you can't macro near perfectly, then, to be frank, you're bad. Further, with the way many of the unit balances play out, your micro really isn't as important as many are saying it is (referring to arguments that SC2 being a "micro-oriented game" makes it a better spectator game or whatever nonsense). The counters are much harder in SC2 than they were in BW. Sure, they're a lot softer than in other games, but I really can't think of a single real hard counter to anything in BW. Even lings could be used effectively against firebats, and vultures had to be intensely micro'd against lings and zealots. In fact, lurkers, which I imagine were implemented as a deterrent measure against bio, ended up with bio as the preferred method to deal with them. How funny is that? And so, with unit counters and army composition being the type of thing that gets figured out within weeks of a game's release, we're left with nothing really all that brainy other than timing.
That's all SC2 is. BW was just as much timing, but then also unforgiving micromanagement and truly intense macro that separated the good players from the bad.
...and people dare say SC2's UI improvements make it a superior game...
This is all my own opinion, though, of course, and hardly a formal one at that. You're free to disagree and to argue against it, if you wish. It's not all there is to it, but it's a big part of it, I think.
 
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Give it time. SCII is still a very young game. People haven't found out the best way to utilize all units yet. Remember, at this stage in the game, SCI was pretty much one-base all-ins too. Hopefully as time wears on, we will see some sort of play emerge that is reminiscent of the great BW moments.
Though, I do think SCII is hard to watch. The GSL finals in particular was absolute trash. It was just all-ins followed by desperate attempts to build the proper counter. Doesn't stop SCII from being a much less frustrating game to play, though.
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I'm an avid brood war fan, and wanted nothing to do with SC2, and then I watched the MGL Dallas stream
It was pretty amazing, I had loads of fun spamming IRC/LR rooting for Liquids to make it through. Although the final was anticlimatic, everything else was worth watching.
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5/5 man, truer words have yet to be spoken
I crossed over to sc2 (and have mass-gamed it ;; ) because the state of the bw community is just so empty right now. Maybe one day we'll see an exodus of people going back, or newbies will show interest in the roots of sc2.
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This is just a quick and messy mini-rant about what I think is holding SC2 back atm.
I don´t see anything holding it back, the growth has been steady and quite rapid IMO.
As a Terran player I´ve only found two "hard counters" in the game, other is immortal to mech and other is corruptors to BC´s.
The game is not hard to play.
I really don´t know where this comes from, you´d think we´d see more top players with no previous progaming experience. IMO it´s still hard. Timings may be more important than in BW and macro easier but why not it´s a different game after all.
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On November 16 2010 08:24 PH wrote:
Anyway, BW largely dominated my interest after that. I stopped following other sports and really just kept up with BW, even, lol. What's funny is that my parents didn't even mind, whenever I went back to stay with them. They could tell listening to the Korean commentating was improving my terrible Korean.
That's what happened to me too :D
Now back on topic: Well said, man. Well said. Couldn't have put it any better myself.
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On November 16 2010 08:24 PH wrote:
Now we approach my big point: this is precisely why the BW camp is so critical of SC2. It's exactly, and for no other reason than, because SC2 is going to replace BW that we both hate it so much and want it to succeed so badly. It HAS to be as good as BW. No old BW fan loves SC2 yet.
This was my favourite part, very true. Nice rant.
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PH, I salute you!
(and not just because you help me determine the acidity of a substance)
I want SC2 to succeed as a game, and perhaps one day surpass BW (doubtful...), but I too am sick of being told how a game that holds the "Starcraft" title should be when there are so many who have never even given the original the time of day.
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This year's proleague has been pretty good, the OSL and MSL have been meh but they're still in the early stages so we might see good games in the Ro16 and later.
But I've been playing and watching SC2 a lot and it's quite a fantastic game. TvZ in SC2 is as good as any BW mirror, it's just that the other matchups haven't evolved into non-boringness yet.
But yeah, if TvZ can turn from MMM ball vs Hydra-Roach ball a-move to dodging and splitting marines and banelings then I'm sure stuff can happen with the other matchups. Phoenixes could be deadly in the hands of a high-APM player, it's just that there's not much to transition to now that Void Rays are nerfed.
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and, most importantly, a surprise and severe disappointment that it wouldn't be a 3d port of Brood War.
Was it? I mean, if you think about it, why on earth would blizzard even think about releasing an exact copy of a 10 year old game with just better technical backings like 3d graphics? I think its 300% obvious, that a new game will benefit not only from better technical surroundings, but also from technical improvements within. what would be the point of a 3d broodwar? Making the game not run anymore on old computers? there is even a ton of people who say "you can't play professionally without graphics on ultra low settings". Why should they even think about using a copy of their game with better graphics?
i think its completely obvious that an exact reimplementation of an old game would just completely fail. The "old school" folks would still rant because they don't need it, and the "new school" folks would rant aswell because two out of five AIs for just pathfinding are horribly bugged, which is just completely unjustifiable for a top notch game producer like blizzard.
So from me a question for you: Why on earth should blizzard have made sc2 as an identical copy of broodwar with just better graphics, or what are the things you would have liked to see changed from broodwar for sc2, so that you would like the game?
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Braavos36390 Posts
Personally, I hate the SC2 guys that post about wishing BW to just die. But I also hate all the BW elitists who go into SC2 threads talking about how BW is better and how SC2 is ruining ESPORTS. Both groups are bad for TL. There's no need to rant about why you believe BW is better, just like there's no need for SC2 fanboys to do the same. Both opinions are completely legitimate -- some like BW better and some like SC2. I don't see why people from either group needs to impose their beliefs on others. People need to stop comparing the games.
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Hi, used to be avid Starcraft gamer back around 2000 when it was not as big. Lost interest because of school. SC2 has revived my interest in not just SC2, but I also find myself once again watching BW.
I havent touched BW in years(probably has been atleast 3 years since I even last had it installed), and I hardly know the current strats but Proleague is still entertaining. BW was really crisp in comparison to SC2. The sounds design and how the whole game came together was very clean. Listening to your zerglings or zealots pound something to death was extremely pleasing to the eyes and the ears, in SC2 in the same situation, I find a feeling of "meh".
SC2 has a lot to live up to and currently I feel it lacks in comparison to BW as a spectator experience. There have been moments in the GSL where you could really see the potential of SC2, and it has been getting better. The quality from GSL1 to GSL2 was a huge jump, I hope the trend continues to GSL3. SC2 is still young and has yet to grow, also balance wise it also has not yet reached stability. Once the game is out for a bit and after a few more balance tweaks, we will hopefully see less balance whine and fantasies, and more constructive posts on the game itself.
Personally I view SC2 and BW, much how i viewed WC3 and BW. They are different games, that call for different playstyles. While SC2 may be a successor to BW, it will not be like BW. It will succeed or fail on its own merits.
I just hope the SC series does not turn out to be call of duty, where every new title essentially kills the old ones, while bringing an arguably worse game to the table. CoD4 is still the best competetive CoD in the series for most people, but its popularity in the general public is very low.
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I found the mini rant to be completely hypocritical. You rant about the two divides in TL community, and then start bashing SC2...So, You are in one of those groups that you were just ranting about...What? makes no sense
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You've failed before you've even started.
Dividing the community into SC2 fanboys assaulting holy ground and BW veterans defending their game... what made you think that that would be a good idea?
Ignoring your 'mini-rant'; what are you even trying to accomplish? If it's getting the two 'sides' to come to some sort of peace, you're not helping. Please stop. Honestly, I don't see anything of worth that this blog adds to the debate.
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On November 16 2010 08:48 OpRaider wrote:
I found the mini rant to be completely hypocritical. You rant about the two divides in TL community, and then start bashing SC2...So, You are in one of those groups that you were just ranting about...What? makes no sense
To this day, there is almost always a bias, in a writing. It is almost impossible to write up a full rant, without showing your own true colors. (Even though I see where you are coming from)
To be on topic, that was a good read. I really hope that both games can go both survive. I JUST WANT PROLEAGUE! I must say, scii has yet to show its true colors of excitement, TO ME, YET.
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I have been following the Brood War scene since  BoxeR vs  YellOw Coca-Cola OSL, or before with knowledge of Grrrr... and I disagree on nearly all points.
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I like both games although BW will forever remain in a special place for me. The issue with SC2 at the moment is that we still need to give it more time to develop into a true e-sports experience. I would definitely say that the BW scene is dwindling, or at least the foreign scene is, but I'm not exactly sure if we can say it'll die out.
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On November 16 2010 08:44 Hot_Bid wrote:
Personally, I hate the SC2 guys that post about wishing BW to just die. But I also hate all the BW elitists who go into SC2 threads talking about how BW is better and how SC2 is ruining ESPORTS. Both groups are bad for TL. There's no need to rant about why you believe BW is better, just like there's no need for SC2 fanboys to do the same. Both opinions are completely legitimate -- some like BW better and some like SC2. I don't see why people from either group needs to impose their beliefs on others. People need to stop comparing the games.
Comparing the games is inevitable though. I think that when BW fans transition into SC2, one would hope that they compare the two to see if SC2 lives up to the expectations that BW has set for the last decade. I think it's totally fair to compare the games....
But on the other hand, it's not as ok for everyone to just be flaming one another. To be honest though, the occasional light hearted joke makes me laugh.......
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On November 16 2010 08:37 Microlisk wrote:
5/5 man, truer words have yet to be spoken
I crossed over to sc2 (and have mass-gamed it ;; ) because the state of the bw community is just so empty right now.
It was during the off season since there weren't any games to follow and Blizzard/Gretech were pulling all kinds of shit, but ever since the new season started the BW forums have once again resumed the good old times. That point aside, I largely agree with the OP.
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On November 16 2010 08:37 HwangjaeTerran wrote:Show nested quote +This is just a quick and messy mini-rant about what I think is holding SC2 back atm. I don´t see anything holding it back, the growth has been steady and quite rapid IMO. As a Terran player I´ve only found two "hard counters" in the game, other is immortal to mech and other is corruptors to BC´s.
The game's growth has been steady and quite rapid for sure. I never said SC2 was a bad game. In fact, I'll go ahead and say it's one of the best games to come out in recent years. I'm just hoping and praying it holds up to what BW has accomplished, which will happen (or not happen) only with time.
Also, I spoke of the hard counters in a relative sense compared to BW.
I really don´t know where this comes from, you´d think we´d see more top players with no previous progaming experience. IMO it´s still hard. Timings may be more important than in BW and macro easier but why not it´s a different game after all.
I define a progamer as someone whose actual lifestyle and life is devoted to the game - someone whose occupation could easily and without doubt be "progamer". Within that framework, all foreign players with the exception of Idra, Nony (or Tyler, I guess) and Ret (and I think a couple others from way back before my time) fit the bill.
The best players from BW are doing well in SC2 in part because their mechanics are already set and overdeveloped for SC2. However, this isn't the real reason. The main and real reason they're doing so well is that they have the discipline to be at that top level of the game. I know that if you ask any of them who were competitive BW players, they'll tell you just how hard it was to practice and prepare for any kind of a match. They're applying that same ethic to SC2, and it's obviously paying off.
I never said timings were more important in SC2 than in BW. Actually, I said that timing is just as important to both games. SC2 simply has less distracting from that. It is indeed a different game, but it's still SC2. The game is still hard, but is not very mechanically demanding at all, in comparison to BW.
On November 16 2010 08:44 MisterD wrote:Show nested quote +and, most importantly, a surprise and severe disappointment that it wouldn't be a 3d port of Brood War. Was it? I mean, if you think about it, why on earth would blizzard even think about releasing an exact copy of a 10 year old game with just better technical backings like 3d graphics? I think its 300% obvious, that a new game will benefit not only from better technical surroundings, but also from technical improvements within. what would be the point of a 3d broodwar? Making the game not run anymore on old computers? there is even a ton of people who say "you can't play professionally without graphics on ultra low settings". Why should they even think about using a copy of their game with better graphics? i think its completely obvious that an exact reimplementation of an old game would just completely fail. The "old school" folks would still rant because they don't need it, and the "new school" folks would rant aswell because two out of five AIs for just pathfinding are horribly bugged, which is just completely unjustifiable for a top notch game producer like blizzard. So from me a question for you: Why on earth should blizzard have made sc2 as an identical copy of broodwar with just better graphics, or what are the things you would have liked to see changed from broodwar for sc2, so that you would like the game?
It was a whimsical statement.
On November 16 2010 08:44 Hot_Bid wrote:
Personally, I hate the SC2 guys that post about wishing BW to just die. But I also hate all the BW elitists who go into SC2 threads talking about how BW is better and how SC2 is ruining ESPORTS. Both groups are bad for TL. There's no need to rant about why you believe BW is better, just like there's no need for SC2 fanboys to do the same. Both opinions are completely legitimate -- some like BW better and some like SC2. I don't see why people from either group needs to impose their beliefs on others. People need to stop comparing the games.
I can agree with what you're saying, but I still can't help it. I don't want BW to die, but SC2 will kill it. With that said, I want SC2 to be great, and I want it to be great for reasons similar to why BW was great. That's probably too much to ask for, but I still want to ask for it.
On November 16 2010 08:48 OpRaider wrote:
I found the mini rant to be completely hypocritical. You rant about the two divides in TL community, and then start bashing SC2...So, You are in one of those groups that you were just ranting about...What? makes no sense
I never said I wasn't in either group. In fact, if you really read any of my post, you should find pretty clearly and obviously that I'm on the BW side. I never said the two sides have to get along, so I don't see why I'm being hypocritical. I'm just shedding light on why I and many of the others in the BW camp feel the way we do and speak out the way we do.
On November 16 2010 08:54 Redmark wrote:
You've failed before you've even started.
Dividing the community into SC2 fanboys assaulting holy ground and BW veterans defending their game... what made you think that that would be a good idea?
Ignoring your 'mini-rant'; what are you even trying to accomplish? If it's getting the two 'sides' to come to some sort of peace, you're not helping. Please stop. Honestly, I don't see anything of worth that this blog adds to the debate.
There's a clear polarization in the community. If you don't see it, you're deluding yourself. I merely referenced it, I didn't make anything up.
I never said I wanted the two sides to come to peace, either. This is a rant and a blog. I posted this in blogs because it's nothing more than that. I'm not trying to help anybody or anything, just expressing how I feel.
If you don't like it, then, quite frankly, too bad.
On November 16 2010 08:56 rift wrote:I have been following the Brood War scene since BoxeR vs YellOw Coca-Cola OSL, or before with knowledge of Grrrr... and I disagree on nearly all points.
I would love to hear why.
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