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Here is my definate list of cheese:
4-6 pool. Anything above 7 pool is NOT cheese.
PROXY builds involving your first two production buildings. Such as building a rax to block in your main, then a quick proxy rax near their base.. Any Proxying past 3rd gateway/barracks is NOT cheese.
Manner Pylons and gas steals, although that is so common nowadays you really gotta understand how to anticipate it and defend it. Its borderline cheese, but I wouldnt consider it really cheese unless combined with the above two.
I think thats it honestly... Everything else is easily defendable if you scout it properly, or respond properly.. DT rush?? If you lose to that, you didnt scout properly.
ALL-IN's are NOT cheese unless requiring the above, Proxying or 4pools. All-in's without those two, are VERY harmful if held off and pretty much doom the player, which is why its called an All-in. If it isnt a proxy or 4pool, You should of scouted it and countered appropriately (any protoss or terran who bitchs about zergling all-ins needs to scout more.)
Now can we all stop bitching about cheese in EVERY game?? If its not a proxy or 4-pool, its likely that you just suck at adapting to anything other than "standard" builds.
Remember people, You cant win SOLELY based on copying the latest Jaedong/Flash/Bisu builds and letting "macro" take over.. At high level play, you need GAME SMARTS; That is the key to being good at Strategy games, Not this bullshit APM or blaming everything on cheese when you lose.
/rant
 
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And yes, this includes things such as 3-gate proxy DTing, and etc.. Because it follows the simple principle of using your first or 2nd gate as a Proxy..
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Cheese is something that makes your opponent lose in an embarassing manner and whine about it.
Hence why it's called cheese. Because it goes with the whine.
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Something you eat with wine
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You can add to the list:
Proxy robo reaver
4 probe harass with proxy gateway forge and in-your-base cannons PvT
Proxy gate, hidden tech DT
These are all cheese because they're effective, gay, easy things with little or no risk to the cheeser.
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I disagree with that Sadist, If thats the case, is Mass scouts considered cheese?? How about Using queens?
The Oldschool meaning of Cheese is short for Cheesy, as in something that is not really balanced/very hard to defeat, yet easy for the other opponent to do.. It has nothing to do with embarassing your opponent, unless your opponent is someone who gets frustrated easily and bitches about it. Its purely based on something that is just so out of whack in the balance (or cheesy) that its not really fair, and gives a significant advantage without having to do much (like a 4pool or early proxy)..
Every realistic and logical mention of Cheese happens with games that end within the first 10 minutes.. If its purely based on an Embarassing/whining standpoint, then EVERYTHING could be considered cheese.. Not paying attention to your dropship while you send it across a field of dragoons would be embarassing, hence cheese?? I dont think so.
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No such thing as cheese. There's strategy that makes you win or lose, period.
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On August 16 2009 21:05 Sadistx wrote:
No such thing as cheese. There's strategy that makes you win or lose, period.
Except some of those strategies make it so disgustingly easy for one player to win and so absurdly difficult for the cheesee to fend off, kind of a really lame thing to do IMO which removes all the fun from the game regardless of whether you're the one cheesing or being cheesed.
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On August 16 2009 21:10 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2009 21:05 Sadistx wrote:
No such thing as cheese. There's strategy that makes you win or lose, period. Except some of those strategies make it so disgustingly easy for one player to win and so absurdly difficult for the cheesee to fend off
LOL this is so not true
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On August 16 2009 21:10 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2009 21:05 Sadistx wrote:
No such thing as cheese. There's strategy that makes you win or lose, period. Except some of those strategies make it so disgustingly easy for one player to win and so absurdly difficult for the cheesee to fend off, kind of a really lame thing to do IMO which removes all the fun from the game regardless of whether you're the one cheesing or being cheesed.
Then its a problem of game design.
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On August 16 2009 21:28 Shauni wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2009 21:10 jello_biafra wrote:On August 16 2009 21:05 Sadistx wrote:
No such thing as cheese. There's strategy that makes you win or lose, period. Except some of those strategies make it so disgustingly easy for one player to win and so absurdly difficult for the cheesee to fend off LOL this is so not true
Sure it's not, you try fending off some of the ridiculous shit korean toss players do to a terran on destination at B ranks and above.
On August 16 2009 21:53 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2009 21:10 jello_biafra wrote:On August 16 2009 21:05 Sadistx wrote:
No such thing as cheese. There's strategy that makes you win or lose, period. Except some of those strategies make it so disgustingly easy for one player to win and so absurdly difficult for the cheesee to fend off, kind of a really lame thing to do IMO which removes all the fun from the game regardless of whether you're the one cheesing or being cheesed. Then its a problem of game design.
More to do with map design I think.
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I don't have to since I'm not a terran player. If you can't fend it off vs same ranked players odds are you wouldn't beat them 'normally' either.
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Shauni, I disagree.
If we played a game, and I 4pooled you and beat you (this is assuming you wern't expecting it obviously and went FE standard play).. Would that mean I could beat you normally also? So that means if I just 4pool everygame, chances are I will beat many people esp the first time I play them and they are unsuspecting of it, does that mean I am better than them??
And even if our ranks are different.. anyone above C- can micro 10 zerglings vs 13-14 probes.. If they cant, they are just plain horrible.
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On August 16 2009 22:33 Shauni wrote:
I don't have to since I'm not a terran player. If you can't fend it off vs same ranked players odds are you wouldn't beat them 'normally' either.
Are you fucking kidding me? Being a toss player has clearly clouded your vision. Like 75% at least of the TvPs I lose are due to ridiculous cheese, if the toss opens standard then I win about 75% of the time. Do you not understand the absurd amount of hassle that an early probe in your base, threatening your gas, delaying your rax, harassing the SCVs making things, building a pylon in your wall so you can't complete it and the zealot from the 8 gate that was made at your bridges can run right in? All the toss has to do is micro that probe around a bit and rally their zealots in, terran has to scramble to save his gas, which in turn delays his rax, struggle to just PUT THE RAX DOWN further delaying it, when your marine finally does pop out often you will have ~4 probes and 1 zealot in your base with 1 more zealot almost arriving, at this point you have to micro like your fucking life depends on it just to survive THE FIRST ZEALOT, then of course the toss already has there cyb almost complete and the goons will be coming while your still desperately trying to keep your 1-2 marines alive from the obscenely strong zealots fucking them up. If you seriously think such things are just as difficult for the toss then you don't have a clue what you're talking about. These builds are the newbiest no skill requiring things in BW.
And no one knows this better than iG.Randy, whoever the hell he is.
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glad to know you have a book that defines cheese.
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On August 16 2009 22:43 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2009 22:33 Shauni wrote:
I don't have to since I'm not a terran player. If you can't fend it off vs same ranked players odds are you wouldn't beat them 'normally' either. Are you fucking kidding me? Being a toss player has clearly clouded your vision. Like 75% at least of the TvPs I lose are due to ridiculous cheese, if the toss opens standard then I win about 75% of the time. Do you not understand the absurd amount of hassle that an early probe in your base, threatening your gas, delaying your rax, harassing the SCVs making things, building a pylon in your wall so you can't complete it and the zealot from the 8 gate that was made at your bridges can run right in? All the toss has to do is micro that probe around a bit and rally their zealots in, terran has to scramble to save his gas, which in turn delays his rax, struggle to just PUT THE RAX DOWN further delaying it, when your marine finally does pop out often you will have ~4 probes and 1 zealot in your base with 1 more zealot almost arriving, at this point you have to micro like your fucking life depends on it just to survive THE FIRST ZEALOT, then of course the toss already has there cyb almost complete and the goons will be coming while your still desperately trying to keep your 1-2 marines alive from the obscenely strong zealots fucking them up. If you seriously think such things are just as difficult for the toss then you don't have a clue what you're talking about. These builds are the newbiest no skill requiring things in BW. And no one knows this better than iG.Randy, whoever the hell he is.
If you're a high ranked player you should have learned to deal with it in the best way possible. It's the same for protoss players. If you haven't learned to cut an scv to get your rax down (the probe will never come earlier than that if you proxy gate), scout your entire main after supply, and be able to complete your wall even if he pylons it (it's possible on both positions) you definately deserve to lose to things like that. You're not a complete B player if you lose 75% of the time against 'ridiculous cheese'.
Yes, it's more difficult for the toss especially on higher levels because you have to come back from a huge disadvantage every game if you still do that vs B+ korean terrans.
Also, to the post above. Cheese might make the game rely more on luck, but you can judge a players skill from a 5 pool as much as from a 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra build. There is a huge difference between a top foreigner's 5pool and a progamers 5pool. Micro isn't just anything you can perfect if you're a C- player and above. That's totally bullshit.
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On August 16 2009 20:49 Skyze wrote:
Here is my definate list of cheese:
4-6 pool. Anything above 7 pool is NOT cheese.
PROXY builds involving your first two production buildings. Such as building a rax to block in your main, then a quick proxy rax near their base.. Any Proxying past 3rd gateway/barracks is NOT cheese.
Manner Pylons and gas steals, although that is so common nowadays you really gotta understand how to anticipate it and defend it. Its borderline cheese, but I wouldnt consider it really cheese unless combined with the above two.
I think thats it honestly... Everything else is easily defendable if you scout it properly, or respond properly.. DT rush?? If you lose to that, you didnt scout properly.
ALL-IN's are NOT cheese unless requiring the above, Proxying or 4pools. All-in's without those two, are VERY harmful if held off and pretty much doom the player, which is why its called an All-in. If it isnt a proxy or 4pool, You should of scouted it and countered appropriately (any protoss or terran who bitchs about zergling all-ins needs to scout more.)
Now can we all stop bitching about cheese in EVERY game?? If its not a proxy or 4-pool, its likely that you just suck at adapting to anything other than "standard" builds.
Remember people, You cant win SOLELY based on copying the latest Jaedong/Flash/Bisu builds and letting "macro" take over.. At high level play, you need GAME SMARTS; That is the key to being good at Strategy games, Not this bullshit APM or blaming everything on cheese when you lose.
/rant
are you kidding me? you know how easy it is for toss to proxy that. you know how easy it is for toss to block their ramp on a 4 person map thus you can't scout it. If terrans played 100% safe their expo would be crazy late and toss could just go 3 expand after blocking the first scout
also you need to stop crying about people bitching about cheese. its going to happen every time something lame happens. get over it.
cheese sometimes also results in boring matches. boxer vs yellow bunker rush 3 times, god that was fucken boring.
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On August 16 2009 23:02 Shauni wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2009 22:43 jello_biafra wrote:On August 16 2009 22:33 Shauni wrote:
I don't have to since I'm not a terran player. If you can't fend it off vs same ranked players odds are you wouldn't beat them 'normally' either. Are you fucking kidding me? Being a toss player has clearly clouded your vision. Like 75% at least of the TvPs I lose are due to ridiculous cheese, if the toss opens standard then I win about 75% of the time. Do you not understand the absurd amount of hassle that an early probe in your base, threatening your gas, delaying your rax, harassing the SCVs making things, building a pylon in your wall so you can't complete it and the zealot from the 8 gate that was made at your bridges can run right in? All the toss has to do is micro that probe around a bit and rally their zealots in, terran has to scramble to save his gas, which in turn delays his rax, struggle to just PUT THE RAX DOWN further delaying it, when your marine finally does pop out often you will have ~4 probes and 1 zealot in your base with 1 more zealot almost arriving, at this point you have to micro like your fucking life depends on it just to survive THE FIRST ZEALOT, then of course the toss already has there cyb almost complete and the goons will be coming while your still desperately trying to keep your 1-2 marines alive from the obscenely strong zealots fucking them up. If you seriously think such things are just as difficult for the toss then you don't have a clue what you're talking about. These builds are the newbiest no skill requiring things in BW. And no one knows this better than iG.Randy, whoever the hell he is. If you're a high ranked player you should have learned to deal with it in the best way possible. It's the same for protoss players. If you haven't learned to cut an scv to get your rax down (the probe will never come earlier than that if you proxy gate), scout your entire main after supply, and be able to complete your wall even if he pylons it (it's possible on both positions) you definately deserve to lose to things like that. You're not a complete B player if you lose 75% of the time against 'ridiculous cheese'. Yes, it's more difficult for the toss especially on higher levels because you have to come back from a huge disadvantage every game if you still do that vs B+ korean terrans. Also, to the post above. Cheese might make the game rely more on luck, but you can judge a players skill from a 5 pool as much as from a 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra build. There is a huge difference between a top foreigner's 5pool and a progamers 5pool. Micro isn't just anything you can perfect if you're a C- player and above. That's totally bullshit.
Sure it's possible to keep broadly your standard build and mitigate the damage by getting things down faster but this hinders you against someone who's playing standard and by no means guarantees you will stop the cheese, if someone is intent on gaying you up with their probe then it's still really hard to not let that happen, and if they're doing the korean style 7 pylon 8 gate at your bridges and sending down 3 more probes then you're still going to have a lot of trouble. Lately I've just been saying fuck it and opening with 2 rax and that seems to do the trick but if you're against standard play then you're boned.
And if you can't get away with the ridiculous cheese against B+ korean terrans then you have no hope in hell of beating them with standard play 
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cheese is awesome. If you can't handle cheese go play a game that doesn't take skill.
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EPT
