EPTPvT on Destination right now? I'll prove this shit to you...
People wondering what Cheese is?? - Page 2
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6634 Posts
PvT on Destination right now? I'll prove this shit to you... | ||
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
On August 16 2009 23:21 jello_biafra wrote: PvT on Destination right now? I'll prove this shit to you... i play zerg, and it wouldn't prove anything. | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6634 Posts
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6634 Posts
On August 16 2009 23:29 stroggos wrote: because your wrong? If cheese was so ridiculously advantageous we would see progamers cheesing 95% of the time pvt desti wouldn't we? We do see it quite often and I assume the reason we don't see it more is because some pros have a little self respect. Also the fact that they want to display more entertaining games. | ||
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
On August 16 2009 23:33 jello_biafra wrote: We do see it quite often and I assume the reason we don't see it more is because some pros have a little self respect. Also the fact that they want to display more entertaining games. self respect? wtf rofl. | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6634 Posts
Well I like to avoid gaying it up to max, not sure I could live with myself if I did that every game. | ||
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
I dont see why you guys find this so hard to understand.. if Bisu did proxy PvT everygame, he would probably win his first 10+ games in a row, but pretty soon every terran he faced would just start going super early rax to defend against it. Not to mention people would just say "omg bisu sucks he can only proxy" and it'd be bad for his reputation. Thats why its not done in pro leagues that often, but it is STILL done often enough that it works (like recently Bisu vs Fantasy, his proxy on Outsider really gave him that game, even tho the proxy itself didnt finish it, it was easy to win after that huge advantage) I still think if you are playing on iccup as a zerg player, doing 4pool everygame, if you can micro decently you could probably get to at least B+ easily just based on the fact you will be beating people unsuspecting of it, and not rematching them. Does that make you a B+ player?? No. | ||
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Shauni
4077 Posts
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Licmyobelisk
Philippines3682 Posts
 I assure this!But the hell, almost nobody goes 2 gates anymore so 2 gate is considered cheese by some D/D+ zergs! LOL at the irony... Man, I think cheese is really good with pizza and spaghetti, then if you can't find both you can just spread melted cheese on your toast. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://ruchii.files.wordpress.com/2006/07/bread-1.jpg) Nyom Nyom Nyom! | ||
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Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
but on iccup meeting a random player, when 70% go standard (which is why its called STANDARD) then someone does some really gay cheese like 4pool, its easy to take a game off someone. Hence why its called cheese. | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6634 Posts
On August 16 2009 23:55 Shauni wrote: Haha, biafra... I'm quite sure they value winning way more than 'self respect' or entertaining games in their important leagues. Cheese is quite common on 2 player maps even on progamer levels yes, the maps (like destination) are slightly advantageous to Protoss in PvT early game and to Terran in lategame. Just because you value winning in lategame more than early game doesn't mean you're more 'skilled' than the 'cheese' players you lose to. Cutting half an scv is a minimal disadvantage against a Protoss playing normal even for progamers, there is no real excuse not to do it on two player maps where this is common. The first part of your post is countering stroggos' point not mine ? o_O I said it did happen often and provided reasons why it doesn't happen 100% of the time. You're gonna have to cut more than half an SCV to get your rax down in time before a 6 probe scout is sitting in the place you want your rax to be, which is inevitably gonna hurt you against a raging macro toss. And these same cheese players that I lose to early game are for the most part tamed in the mid game when they go standard play -_- And Destination is more than slighly advantageous for PvT early game and TvP lategame which is why I don't cheese my half of the map up with a million turrets and mines and a huge line of tanks and simply wait the toss out, I play like a man and try and take them down midgame. And this thread is someone asking how to counter something that's easy for their opponent to do and hard for them to play against if ever I've seen one. | ||
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Shauni
4077 Posts
If you 6 scout and run directly to the terran's base to block his wall rax, how the hell are you supposed to proxy gate? Send a probe out just to block the rax in case he walls? Do you know how much that sets you behind? I told you that the reaction to the 7 pylon 7 gate build (if you want to wall) is to cut half an scv to get your rax up exactly when he's at your choke, I wasn't talking about anything else. A lot of good terrans doesn't even wall in on destination, so if you absolutely don't want any probe to delay your rax, place it by your CC instead. And what has that thread to do with this? I was simply stating that I had problems against that type of play, it's my weakness and my fault I lose to it. Don't you see the absurdity of blaming your opponent for your own weakness? | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6634 Posts
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Nytefish
United Kingdom4282 Posts
What I find funny is when people who do risky strategies against "better" players are called stupid and lack skills. Since the stupid thing to do would have been to play into the opponent's comfort zone. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 16 2009 22:39 Skyze wrote: And even if our ranks are different.. anyone above C- can micro 10 zerglings vs 13-14 probes.. If they cant, they are just plain horrible. How do you end up with 10 zerglings when you 4-pool? On August 16 2009 23:33 jello_biafra wrote: We do see it quite often and I assume the reason we don't see it more is because some pros have a little self respect. Also the fact that they want to display more entertaining games. Um, with as much money as there is on the line, if cheesing through a final was viable, I'm sure they'd do it. I'm pretty sure there's not as much stigma in Korea against cheesing as there is in the foreign community. Notice how in all the interviews, the term translates to "strategic play"? That doesn't seem to carry a negative connotation at all. | ||
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duckett
United States589 Posts
On August 17 2009 00:04 jello_biafra wrote: And Destination is more than slighly advantageous for PvT early game and TvP lategame which is why I don't cheese my half of the map up with a million turrets and mines and a huge line of tanks and simply wait the toss out, I play like a man and try and take them down midgame. This is totally absurd... If everyone in starcraft played with total disregard for the early game and late game, you would have only midgame timing pushes; just because that's the only way you know how to play doesn't mean its the only "legitimate" strategy (what the hell does "like a man" mean? if I scv rush because I have the retarded balls to assume that my 4 scvs will murder your 7 probes, does that make the strategy more manly?). The game's variations add meaningful depth, and if you choose to ignore them its your beef. Sadistx is right...Things people complain about as "cheese" are just strategies that exploit the current metagame and static play. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
Cheese in StarCraft is basically anything risky with a high reward. That's the only consistent definition I think we'll ever have. When JulyZerg 5pools, everyone is still going to call it cheese, no matter how good July's metagame and predicting of its success is. When someone does a new, but well thought out build, everyone is going to call it cute. There's no point in trying to list all the builds that are cheese, because half the readers on this forum don't understand what is actually risky, and what has reasonable and healthy transitions to the mid-game. | ||
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OverTheUnder
United States2929 Posts
On August 16 2009 23:06 StorrZerg wrote: are you kidding me? you know how easy it is for toss to proxy that. you know how easy it is for toss to block their ramp on a 4 person map thus you can't scout it. If terrans played 100% safe their expo would be crazy late and toss could just go 3 expand after blocking the first scout also you need to stop crying about people bitching about cheese. its going to happen every time something lame happens. get over it. cheese sometimes also results in boring matches. boxer vs yellow bunker rush 3 times, god that was fucken boring. i loved that, one of my favorite moments in pro gaming. | ||
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Zapdos_Smithh
Canada2620 Posts
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