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I can't believe how many cheesers there are on ICCup. I've been playing my off-race Terran for a while and looking for improving. I currently play on the motw Blue Storm. I don't know if it's the map that encourages people to cheese, or is it just the low ranked players that are looking to reach a higher rank.
At least 10 of my last 20 games have been cheesegames. I understand that cheesing is a part of the game and I sometimes do it myself too. However, currently my main goal is to improving and just play standard but it seems quite impossible. Are people really this obsessed about the points/ranks?
I have to say that Protosses are definitely the worst. God they cheese all the time. My main race is protoss too so I understand that it's fun sometimes, but some do it all the time. I played this one guy four times in a row and every single game he cheesed.
Do I just have bad luck with my opponents? Does it have to do with my race? When I play P only a handfull of games include cheese. What the hell is up?
 
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International Cheeser's Cup.
Yeah as Terran you'll get cheesed a lot especially by lower ranked Protoss players. There's not much you can really do except work on improving your anti-cheese I'm afraid >_>
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United States24701 Posts
I can tell you as a protoss that I rarely got cheesed when I played a decent number of ladder games.
I realize it sorta stands out when all these cheese games happen to you, but it's actually very common for people to make a post similar to yours so don't feel left out.
If you want to practice straight up, then either fly through the lower ranks or get in with a group/clan of similarly ranked players who aren't going to cheese you a lot.
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I don't think it's that bad, I play terran myself. I like blue storm but standard games tend to last so long there so I can understand people cheesing there. Also half of the protoss newbies try that double gate in your main trick which is always a free win so I don't mind.
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Well cheese is a part of the game too and, contrary to popular belief, does require skill both to execute and defend. So at least you're still getting a lot of practise with one game aspect. And at least it's usually over quickly one way or another.
I might sound like a cheese a lot; I don't, it's really rare for me. I've just always respected it as a tactic. It can make the game a lot more fun to watch. It does get really lame when someone cheeses over 50% of their games though.
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Dewis i used to lose to PvT bluestorm cheese alot. Here is an easy solution that cancels out all cheese. send your 7th scv to that little opening in the wall to block his probe, when he tries to micro the scv away just move back and attack it quickly, repeat over and over until he leaves or goes around. By the time he can get around your wall will be up. This stops pretty much everything because it prevents his probe from not being seen if he in base proxies you and if you dont see it come to the opening you can be sure he is proxying outside your base.
zlot cannon prevention:
I always freak out and overmicro like shit when i see a cannon being warped in outside my wall with 1-2 zlots but the actual way to stop this cheese is to make a semi wall just inside your base while you tech to tanks. Make a bunker and try to surround it by the new depots you will have to make (let him kill the one at your wall. Get siege and a tank asap then once u break out just double expo with turrets (standard tvp w/e). Dont let him kill your scvs. If you can make a proxy fac in his base (this works so much LOL) and hurt his econ while you macro. (thx to Sanity for this idea)
10/15 gate:
this is rare on bluestorm but a good counter is making a bunker and getting siege and a tank asap before your CC. keep 3 scvs at the bunker and float your rax over it until the tank is out then wall it with bunker/rax/depot (keep the rax and depot one matrix behind the bunker so non range goons cant hit it at first. expo and get dropship harass asap afterwards.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
I don't encounter cheese a lot in ICCUP. Maybe it's because I played python every single game. When I play on motw, I usually cheese because I have no idea how to play on that map.
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On January 28 2009 08:12 micronesia wrote:
I can tell you as a protoss that I rarely got cheesed when I played a decent number of ladder games.
I realize it sorta stands out when all these cheese games happen to you, but it's actually very common for people to make a post similar to yours so don't feel left out.
If you want to practice straight up, then either fly through the lower ranks or get in with a group/clan of similarly ranked players who aren't going to cheese you a lot.
Likewise, as protoss I actually have never been cheesed.
I guess playing against cheese does have its benefits though. Even though it's not as common at higher levels, you'll be more prepared if it ever does happen.
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On January 28 2009 08:16 Hypnosis wrote:
Dewis i used to lose to PvT bluestorm cheese alot. Here is an easy solution that cancels out all cheese. send your 7th scv to that little opening in the wall to block his probe, when he tries to micro the scv away just move back and attack it quickly, repeat over and over until he leaves or goes around. By the time he can get around your wall will be up. This stops pretty much everything because it prevents his probe from not being seen if he in base proxies you and if you dont see it come to the opening you can be sure he is proxying outside your base.
This only works on blue storm but it works really well
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Blue storm is particularly bad in TvP, but I haven't encountered much cheese. A lot of DT rushing in PvP, but it's not that risky (at my level), people usually play it into storm/cannons/expo or something.
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Part of learning to play standard is dealing with cheese. Not just learning how to play standard vs someone else who is also playing standard.
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I think I have been cheesed only once in about 200 iccup games. It was a 5pool by a guy that only 5pools. I looked at his record and he had 100 games that ended in about 5 minutes or less.
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On January 28 2009 08:16 Hypnosis wrote:
Dewis i used to lose to PvT bluestorm cheese alot. Here is an easy solution that cancels out all cheese. send your 7th scv to that little opening in the wall to block his probe, when he tries to micro the scv away just move back and attack it quickly, repeat over and over until he leaves or goes around. By the time he can get around your wall will be up. This stops pretty much everything because it prevents his probe from not being seen if he in base proxies you and if you dont see it come to the opening you can be sure he is proxying outside your base.
Thanks for all the tips you wrote. Regarding the text quoted: I wouldn't like to "prepare for cheese" as a part of my standard game. Of course you must always be prepared for it and check you main on Blue Storm for gates etc., and overall scout what is going on.
Well maybe I just have to suck it up and take it as a good anticheese lesson.
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On January 28 2009 08:38 sixghost wrote:
Part of learning to play standard is dealing with cheese. Not just learning how to play standard vs someone else who is also playing standard.
If you read my OP you can see that I agree with this. I'm just a pretty bad terran and would like to train my basic mechanics. And I've played like 4-5 hours straight without a single "standard" TvP.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
Serves you bunker terrans right.
I'm glad the protosses are cheesing you guys right back cuz the zergs obviously aren't 5pooling enuf.
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People cheese repeatedly simply because they're stat whores. They'll farm as many wins as they can with cheese builds to increase the size of their Bnet-peen (ie. their ICCUP rank).
But the timeless saying still follows: "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice....uhh
Well the point is you can't get fooled. Some people won't even re because they know you'll be prepared for their cheese the second game. Basically those players aren't going anywhere BW wise and eventually you'll grow as a player and be able to handle cheese strats far better and eventually find yourself at a rank where you'll only be cheesed a respectable amount of times.
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Depends what you call cheese. Do you consider a DT drop cheese and things of the like?
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Protoss have a pact with each other and zergs that they'll only cheese Terrans.
Bastards
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i dont even play my strongest race, terran on the motw anymore after being constantly taken down by proxy gates in my base
i dont even bother fighting it cuz they do w/e it takes to cheese. if i kill their first pylon before their gate, they'll make 2-3 more.
if they can't get lots out, they will cannon rush.
and lets not get into the topic of 5 pools.
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On January 28 2009 08:11 jello_biafra wrote:
International Crying Cup.
Fixed.
I cheese in about 80% of my games, be it small cheese or all-in. Why? I don't really play for improving because it would demand A LOT more time than I spend on playing SC, I just play for fun. Trying to pull out some of progamers' pimp moves or inventing my own builds, failing hard both of cases. But I enjoy it. I enjoy microing shuttle and reaver far more than going to 200/200 macro whore. I enjoy low eco games. I know I'm never gonna be more than D player but I don't care as long as I enjoy starcraft 
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I've switched to T this season (my main is P) and I haven't played vs any cheese. In previous seasons, I didn't feel that cheese was nearly as bad as a lot of people say. Maybe it was just me being P. But this season, the opponents either played standard or played bad. Well, one guy did a carrier rush, but I don't consider that too cheesy. I've played 15 games so far, so I know I've had extraordinary luck this season.
I think another thing is that I haven't played Blue Storm. That map is just so good for cheesing, if I played that map 15 times instead of random other maps, I'd probably be cheesed about 10 times
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On January 28 2009 08:44 Salv wrote:
Depends what you call cheese. Do you consider a DT drop cheese and things of the like?
No, I'm mainly talking about all kinds of proxygate and proxygate+cannon variations.
I just don't understand people who do it all the time, doesn't people want to improve or do they actually think they are when they win games with cheese only?
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On January 28 2009 08:44 [Fin]Vittu wrote:
i dont even play my strongest race, terran on the motw anymore after being constantly taken down by proxy gates in my base
i dont even bother fighting it cuz they do w/e it takes to cheese. if i kill their first pylon before their gate, they'll make 2-3 more.
if they can't get lots out, they will cannon rush.
and lets not get into the topic of 5 pools.
kill the gateways, not the pylons. just stick 4 scvs on the gate as it warps, get your first rine out, and go for the probe
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
I would 5 pool more often to counter those stupid 8 rax bunker rushes, but everytime I'm about to 5 pool I feel so gay and decide not to do it.
Why the hell do people even bother cheesing? It's so gay and it's not even worth the win.
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do a build with rax first, and you will kill it ez mode
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Too many ppl play for rank. Just today(actually yesterday at Finland) I played twice vs 7x-Justice build. Which is 4pool into disc while BM'ing. Every MU is timing games for me. PvT is T going for fe into 5fac timing push, PvP is 2g reaver -> go, PvZ is either 3 hatchling or 2/3/4 hatch hydra.
Seems like I only get standard games vs my friend, or vs some1 on cw who dosent play ladders, or every 10th game on iccup T__T...
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On January 28 2009 08:51 Tien wrote:Why the hell do people even bother cheesing? It's so gay and it's not even worth the win.
Referring to Incontrol's thread about not playing predictable, cheese can be good to use in a bo series, but at a massgaming ladder I don't really see the point either.
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Germany2762 Posts
i only cheese if i don't have time for a long game
so if i know that i have to go within the next 10 minutes i always do something like gates in the opponents main or smth like that :>
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I used to get really frustrated with this too, nothing you can do but get over it and just play. If you play someone four times in a row, and they've cheesed in every single game, you should assume they're going to cheese again. Just scout well, and if you notice anything odd, prepare for it. Normally you should have a very strong chance at winning the game if you've scouted the cheese. People are just obsessed with ranking up for many reasons, let them.
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On January 28 2009 08:55 TheSchwA wrote:
I used to get really frustrated with this too, nothing you can do but get over it and just play. If you play someone four times in a row, and they've cheesed in every single game, you should assume they're going to cheese again. Just scout well, and if you notice anything odd, prepare for it. Normally you should have a very strong chance at winning the game if you've scouted the cheese. People are just obsessed with ranking up for many reasons, let them.
True, I expected cheese from the guy already after the first game, and I'm sure that he knew that I would play more cautious too, yet he cheesed every game. Unbelievable.
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Maybe some people want to improve their cheese strategies. Gotta practice some how
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On January 28 2009 08:51 Tien wrote:
I would 5 pool more often to counter those stupid 8 rax bunker rushes, but everytime I'm about to 5 pool I feel so gay and decide not to do it.
Why the hell do people even bother cheesing? It's so gay and it's not even worth the win.
lol
once i got 4 pooled consecutively in a few ZvZ's, so the next game I 4 pool and the guy was just going for hatch in main
"i'm sorry i really thought you were gonna 4 pool me... re but standard?"
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On January 28 2009 08:55 Dewis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2009 08:51 Tien wrote:Why the hell do people even bother cheesing? It's so gay and it's not even worth the win. Referring to Incontrol's thread about not playing predictable, cheese can be good to use in a bo series, but at a massgaming ladder I don't really see the point either.
I agree with this.
I personally don't even feel satisfied with a victory that I earn via cheesing. I'd much rather out macro, micro and out play my opponent, as opposed to catching him with his pants around his ankles.
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I hardly get cheesed but whenever I do it's fun to play against. It really tests how sharp and clean you can micro your units in a high intensity situation.
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I cheese alot, I play T. It's not for points or stuff like that, I just like to cheese. I dont enjoy the long macrogames, and cheesing makes it alot more fun.
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uhh i just faced this korean fag who 5 pooled me 2 consecutive games in a row. second time around, i lost my cool and for the first time swore on iccup instead of just saying gg because i lost it due to one single micro mistake with my corsairs.
and to top it off, i've lost my 4 other games, and now i'm back to C from being in C+ with 5500~ points.
AND in addition, i asked for a re to that fag and he said ok, chose toss, and double proxy gated me. i won the game, but i hadn't realized he had set the game setting to like melee or something so i didn't get any points.
hahaha it was the most frustrating thing ever.
i'm laughing now, but i was ready to kill someone T_T
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Cheese is fun to play/play against sometimes.
I have a replay here of a pretty funny game (version 1.15.3). At the start of the game roughly 2 minutes in he said "I'm win" and i was lol yeah ok.......
Then I see a bunker and some marines and I was like ooohhh......
Inspired from the Tempest vs Light game http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=kd5tK9svnIQ
I decided to stay in the game even when he took out my pylon and such. Finally when I took out his bunkers and marines I typed "who win?" and he responded "me"
So i rocked up to his base killed his scvs, he backstabbed with some marines but I was rdy for them. GG no re, cheese games for the funnies
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Playing on iCCup really made me scout better due to all the cheese. The only matchup that seem to be devoid of "cheese" for is ZvZ.
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ICCup is essentially just a way to practice; with the ideal goal (in my opinion) being that it pays off in series or matches that 'matter'; clan wars and things of the like. My perspective is that in a best of five series, if I want to 9/10 gate rush a terran and follow up with DT or something like that, I'll need to practice it. I might play ten or fifteen games where I do the same rush over and over and find out where it's weak (or where I am weak, when using it) and then I can decide whether it's worth using.
I don't really do things like that, but I might start, considering when I cheese in a BO series, it's often a complete failure since I don't ever practice it.
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I read this is as "Chess on ICCUP" and was like whoa.....
Disappointing
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On January 28 2009 08:47 ondik wrote:Fixed. I cheese in about 80% of my games, be it small cheese or all-in. Why? I don't really play for improving because it would demand A LOT more time than I spend on playing SC, I just play for fun. Trying to pull out some of progamers' pimp moves or inventing my own builds, failing hard both of cases. But I enjoy it. I enjoy microing shuttle and reaver far more than going to 200/200 macro whore. I enjoy low eco games. I know I'm never gonna be more than D player but I don't care as long as I enjoy starcraft
So basically if you want to avoid this get to D+/C- or so and you won't encounter it as often.
Yes cheesing takes skill somestimes, yes it's part of the game, but I can understand how you want to train your "standard play". OP never said that he has a problem dealing with cheese, they just do it a lot. Maybe he has played it so much it almost never gets him, which is why he wants to practice standard a little more.
Your best bet is like micronesia said, get past the lower ranks where people don't do it as much or join a clan or play with friends and tell them what you are trying to do.
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Its all part of the practicing for being a good terran, if you can't handle the early game then you aren't cut out for long game, plain and simple. So its a stepping stone in skill levels, rightly so. Once you get to the higher ranks, everyone knows that you've been through the 'cheese ranks' and therefor can be trusted to be at least some what of a skilled player on merit alone.
PS- I dunno what the deal is with people calling it cheese and complaining, its all part of the game as I mentioned above.
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To learn how to play standard, you should play against people you know or with higher ranked players. The D ladder is full of cheesers. The main advantage of playing against cheesers is that you learn how to defend vs cheese, but it does get kinda boring after a while.
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I think most of people here have the wrong idea: this is a competitive game and a win is a win. What the opener calls cheese is not just a part of the game: is the game itself. What is not to cheese? to play normal? theres no normal game, or normal BO/strategy its just that you expect the game to go in a way because you think that everyone plays like that. Stop the crying, learn to deal with "cheese". If someone wants to 5 pool his way to A+, thats ok.
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I am a protoss. I don't cheese. I hope other people keep "high moral standards" by not doing somethign sneaky like cheese just to get more points or win quickly, BUT if they DO cheese, it's not that hard to scout and then get pissed off at/win because you can detect slight changes like when the scout comes, amount of units, gas taken or not, all those things O_o
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I don't understand why there's so much puff about "cheesing". It's part of the game, people have stated that it is fairly possible to easily deal with it if you look for it and know what to do. Adapt and move on to better things.
How can it be "honorable" to not "cheese"? I don't understand that at all, I think what people are meaning to say is, "You made me lose, so you're not honorable unless you make me lose the way I WANT to lose." A loss is a loss.
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Getting cheesed sucks (especially cannon rushed). But sometimes doing a successful proxy hatch makes you feel so warm and evil inside . Othello anyone?
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United States17042 Posts
On January 28 2009 11:03 AlphaxOmega wrote:Getting cheesed sucks (especially cannon rushed). But sometimes doing a successful proxy hatch makes you feel so warm and evil inside . Othello anyone?
proxy hat into proxy nydus is amazing. And the opponent thinks that you mass dropped, especially if you manage to pull it off 20 minutes into the game or so with ultra/ling.
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Yea I pretty much attempt gas steal into 3 gate all-inish attack or dt every PvT on blue storm. I'm not a bad person, I'm just bad at PvT...
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Its okay i go 2 fact a lot on python because i cant win late game 
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lol.. cheesers are funny. Like this guy. Tried to cannon rush on Tau Cross, but got his probe stuck behind the pylon. I spotted it like 10 secs later with him building a new pylon, canceled it and left a few seconds after. haha... Easy 130 points.
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Stopping 2 gate is easy on any map where you can wall and even then it's really easy to simcity your barracks/depot/factory next to your CC to hold off any 2 gate or 1 gate zealot rush. Letting your gas be stolen is your own fault so you shouldn't blame the other player and I think you're over exaggerating how often you've been cheesed.
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On January 28 2009 11:33 wurm wrote:lol.. cheesers are funny. Like this guy. Tried to cannon rush on Tau Cross, but got his probe stuck behind the pylon. I spotted it like 10 secs later with him building a new pylon, canceled it and left a few seconds after. haha... Easy 130 points.
HAHA
I remember my friend proxy 2 gated in this zerg's nat and his lots couldnt get out.
Kingdumb dejavu
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There was a game long time ago on b.net where some protoss guy cannon rushed me and FE'd... and I just ran my lings to his base and killed all his probes.
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I dunno I switched to Terran as well, but I find it much, much easier to defend cheese than as Protoss. It used to bother me, especially in PvP when 80% of the time my opponent would never even attempt to go for an expansion and just cheesed. As a Terran, you can wall-in, build turrets on the go, have scan, and a shitload of other deffensive options.
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If you guys watched JF's reppack of his iccup, he pulls the 5 different cheeses on this one poor kid on Blue Storm. I reckon he only did 1 cheese build to get through all of the D/C ranks.
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Define "cheese". I personally do a lot of early pressure builds if I scout them and they suck at D~C- level simply because I dont want to waste time playing vs random noobs. I don't see that much legitimate cheese, like 5pool or anything although maybe you got unlucky idk...
ps. I practice my terran on bnet, more fun becasue then I win :D
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I sometimes wonder how high a rank someone like Bisu or Stork could get if they started a new account and just 2-gated every single time, every matchup, every map, no matter what.
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If you get cheesed so often... shouldn't you be better at defending it?
And seriously, what good does this post do anyways?
Just work harder and get better. Or quit.
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On January 28 2009 13:01 Djabanete wrote:
I sometimes wonder how high a rank someone like Bisu or Stork could get if they started a new account and just 2-gated every single time, every matchup, every map, no matter what. They wouldn't necessarily always win with the 2-gate rush, but even if it failed they could probably win the game anyway up into even the middle B ranks. That's what I would say, anyway.
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On January 28 2009 08:43 FREEloss_ca wrote:
People cheese repeatedly simply because they're stat whores. They'll farm as many wins as they can with cheese builds to increase the size of their Bnet-peen (ie. their ICCUP rank).
But the timeless saying still follows: "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice....uhh
Well the point is you can't get fooled. Some people won't even re because they know you'll be prepared for their cheese the second game. Basically those players aren't going anywhere BW wise and eventually you'll grow as a player and be able to handle cheese strats far better and eventually find yourself at a rank where you'll only be cheesed a respectable amount of times.
This is sad but true. The ones who do re are awesome though IMO. Getting bunker rushed 5 times in a row is really valuable experience.
For the record, in my 66 games so far this season, I've cheesed twice (both 6pool ZvP, though whether or not that's cheese can be debated), and have been cheesed only 3 times (2 bunker rush, 1 cannon rush). All games at D level.
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every game for me at C is vs non-standard/cheese every time. Gets pretty annoying. what's up with 5pool/sunken whor3 on colloseum lol
i'd say iccup is not a good place to practice standard, it is good for anti-standard practice tho.
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Germany2762 Posts
the most annoying thing is pvp on luna... almost every toss on iccup tries to cannonrush the main with two pylons blocking the cannons behind the minerals. thank god luna is a four player map and it works not all the time -.-
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I'm a zerg player, I don't really know what you consider as cheese, but out of the 30 games i've played on iccup, i'd say i've only been cheesed a couple of times.
One time with a bunker rush, and one time with a cannon rush.
One time when i was playing a protoss, and opted for a 12 hatch/11 pool opening, his scouting probe came and stole the gas both at my main and at my natural before my pool was finished.
I thought that was pretty cheesy, but i don't really know what he hoped to gain from it, as he was just fast expanding like most of the tosses do.
Also one terran tried to pull off some sort of 4-port mass wraiths, but it didn't do so well against against my hydra-heavy army.
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How some of you manage to get cheesed just 3 of 66 games is sick. I love original or well-executed cheese, and get cheesed somewhat often at my ranks, I'm hovering betwen C and C-. I think I've been cheesed in 4 of my 6 last vT games. 2x bunkerrushes and two times proxyfactories at bluestorm, one being lifted into my main obviously.. one of those not cheeseing did a one base elevator strat ferrying into my main. I think it's fun.
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To be honest, the players that have cheesed me the less have been zerg players.
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Calgary25981 Posts
Play the game as it is, not as you imagine it to be.
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On January 28 2009 22:49 Chill wrote:
Play the game as it is, not as you imagine it to be.
So true, people are too caught up in "the better player is the one who can macro better".
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On January 28 2009 18:57 Marve wrote:
I'm a zerg player, I don't really know what you consider as cheese, but out of the 30 games i've played on iccup, i'd say i've only been cheesed a couple of times.
One time with a bunker rush, and one time with a cannon rush.
One time when i was playing a protoss, and opted for a 12 hatch/11 pool opening, his scouting probe came and stole the gas both at my main and at my natural before my pool was finished.
I thought that was pretty cheesy, but i don't really know what he hoped to gain from it, as he was just fast expanding like most of the tosses do.
Also one terran tried to pull off some sort of 4-port mass wraiths, but it didn't do so well against against my hydra-heavy army.
lmfao 4-port wraiths
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