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On November 30 2008 09:48 3clipse wrote:this No being is capable of consciously doing something that does not provide benefit to itself either physically or psychologically.
Why? You've never done something solely for the sake of your friends? Or family? You wouldn't help a stranger out ever?
You've never done anything solely for the benefit of someone else?
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On November 30 2008 09:52 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2008 09:28 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 04:31 travis wrote:
I think the ultimate drive force for good and a higher morality is the understanding that the only thing separating your experiences and the experiences of another is "when" and "where". So you believe nurture creates our personalities and by nature were all the same? EDIT: clarification EDIT 2: If so, how did you arrive at this belief? Because I believe intelligence, at the very least, exists to some extent. That changes decisions, and thereby changes experiences. Other things, such as emotional quotient are also pre-determined to some extent. They can be developed, but your base talent (for lack of a better word) at these subjects comes in to play + Show Spoiler +yadyadya just my opinion, not trying to pick a fight, just truly wondering how you arrived at your conclusion I don't think I am a body or a brain. Sure, intelligence - in whatever terms it is defined - exists. And you can say that it determines [x]. Or you can say that genetics determines [y]. Or that your upbringing determines [z]. But none of these things are me. My experiences are linked to them, sure. But they are not those things theirselves. I am not my body or my brain. I am my experiences.
But... Your experiences are different then others who would be in the same circumstances aa x y and z. So that would mean what seperates you from someone else is not only the when or the where.
And try as you might you ARE your brain or your body, as your perception changes your experience.
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On November 30 2008 09:31 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2008 06:44 travis wrote:
not "could just as well have been you"
rather "is you". well that isn't quite right either but it's closer than "could just as well have been you"
So, what "new age" crap is this?
who the fuck are you?
Also I am was not looking into contradictions in your statements, I was just trying to take the same logic further.
Like:
1: People are good with each other due to them understanding that in a way other people are them.
2: From 1 follows that being good is treating everyone equally no matter who, where or when they are, since a random person in south Africa is as much you as your best friend.
2 would be better as "treat others as you would have them treat you". But that isn't quite right either. Close enough I guess.
The problem comes then of course with the notion of evil, if a guy gets attacked, should you then assume that the attackers are right since you are in a way the attackers or should you assume that the victim is innocent for the same reason?
I would have others help me from harm and so I would help others from harm, with few exceptions.
So it is between "Could as well have been" and "Is", is it a religious thing like the holy spirit? Or is it a perverted version of quantum theory? Please explain more. Edit: Or is it like the guy above says?
Q: What's the difference between me and you?
A: Circumstance
just because my experiences in this circumstance do not include your experiences does not mean that I am not the same experiencer that you are.
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On November 30 2008 09:52 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2008 09:48 3clipse wrote:On November 30 2008 01:42 RaGe wrote:
altruism doesn't exist this No being is capable of consciously doing something that does not provide benefit to itself either physically or psychologically. Why? You've never done something solely for the sake of your friends? Or family? You wouldn't help a stranger out ever? You've never done anything solely for the benefit of someone else?
Well it's a fact that when humans do something to help others they always want others to know about it, this makes up for a great deal of our self esteem. So yes it does benefit us in some way.
I know it's harsh because it seems to take away a lot from what seem noble motives but just remember that doing something good should be judged on how much good it does, not how good the intentions are.
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On November 30 2008 09:54 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2008 09:52 travis wrote:On November 30 2008 09:28 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 04:31 travis wrote:
I think the ultimate drive force for good and a higher morality is the understanding that the only thing separating your experiences and the experiences of another is "when" and "where". So you believe nurture creates our personalities and by nature were all the same? EDIT: clarification EDIT 2: If so, how did you arrive at this belief? Because I believe intelligence, at the very least, exists to some extent. That changes decisions, and thereby changes experiences. Other things, such as emotional quotient are also pre-determined to some extent. They can be developed, but your base talent (for lack of a better word) at these subjects comes in to play + Show Spoiler +yadyadya just my opinion, not trying to pick a fight, just truly wondering how you arrived at your conclusion I don't think I am a body or a brain. Sure, intelligence - in whatever terms it is defined - exists. And you can say that it determines [x]. Or you can say that genetics determines [y]. Or that your upbringing determines [z]. But none of these things are me. My experiences are linked to them, sure. But they are not those things theirselves. I am not my body or my brain. I am my experiences. But... Your experiences are different then others who would be in the same circumstances aa x y and z.
what? why is that?
if someone else was in my circumstance they would experience what I experience.
And try as you might you ARE your brain or your body, as your perception changes your experience.
try as I might? 
no I am not my brain or my body. I am experiences. my experiences are not my brain and my body, they are just linked to them.
you cannot say conclusively that the experiences come from the brain or the body. there is no proof of this. there isn't even any evidence of this. all there is evidence of is linkage.
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On November 30 2008 10:01 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2008 09:54 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 09:52 travis wrote:On November 30 2008 09:28 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 04:31 travis wrote:
I think the ultimate drive force for good and a higher morality is the understanding that the only thing separating your experiences and the experiences of another is "when" and "where". So you believe nurture creates our personalities and by nature were all the same? EDIT: clarification EDIT 2: If so, how did you arrive at this belief? Because I believe intelligence, at the very least, exists to some extent. That changes decisions, and thereby changes experiences. Other things, such as emotional quotient are also pre-determined to some extent. They can be developed, but your base talent (for lack of a better word) at these subjects comes in to play + Show Spoiler +yadyadya just my opinion, not trying to pick a fight, just truly wondering how you arrived at your conclusion I don't think I am a body or a brain. Sure, intelligence - in whatever terms it is defined - exists. And you can say that it determines [x]. Or you can say that genetics determines [y]. Or that your upbringing determines [z]. But none of these things are me. My experiences are linked to them, sure. But they are not those things theirselves. I am not my body or my brain. I am my experiences. But... Your experiences are different then others who would be in the same circumstances aa x y and z. what? why is that? if someone else was in my circumstance they would experience what I experience. Show nested quote +
And try as you might you ARE your brain or your body, as your perception changes your experience.
try as I might? no I am not my brain or my body. I am experiences. my experiences are not my brain and my body, they are just linked to them. you cannot say conclusively that the experiences come from the brain or the body. there is no proof of this. there isn't even any evidence of this. all there is evidence of is linkage.
Sorry, i'm bad at the quote thing! I'm just gonna use roman numerals
I. Because they would react differently. They are more or less intelligent then you. Their feelings are different than your, their experiences inevitable change, they can't possibly have the exact same experiences as you because they are different than you.
II.Yeah, but experiences are linked to who you are. Not everyone reacts the same way, and you play a part in forming your experiences. Therefore you help shape your experiences.
EDIT: For example we are living identical lives. We both make the decision to take the SAT. We study the same amount. Our experiences are exactly the same EXCEPT you are smarter than me. You score higher. At that point the experience chang
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On November 30 2008 09:52 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2008 09:28 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 04:31 travis wrote:
I think the ultimate drive force for good and a higher morality is the understanding that the only thing separating your experiences and the experiences of another is "when" and "where". So you believe nurture creates our personalities and by nature were all the same? EDIT: clarification EDIT 2: If so, how did you arrive at this belief? Because I believe intelligence, at the very least, exists to some extent. That changes decisions, and thereby changes experiences. Other things, such as emotional quotient are also pre-determined to some extent. They can be developed, but your base talent (for lack of a better word) at these subjects comes in to play + Show Spoiler +yadyadya just my opinion, not trying to pick a fight, just truly wondering how you arrived at your conclusion I don't think I am a body or a brain. Sure, intelligence - in whatever terms it is defined - exists. And you can say that it determines [x]. Or you can say that genetics determines [y]. Or that your upbringing determines [z]. But none of these things are me. My experiences are linked to them, sure. But they are not those things theirselves. I am not my body or my brain. I am my experiences.
So how is this different from spirituality or any other kind of new age crap?
Fact is, we can erase your memory and you will still be you, just without your "experiences".
On November 30 2008 10:09 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2008 10:01 travis wrote:On November 30 2008 09:54 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 09:52 travis wrote:On November 30 2008 09:28 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 04:31 travis wrote:
I think the ultimate drive force for good and a higher morality is the understanding that the only thing separating your experiences and the experiences of another is "when" and "where". So you believe nurture creates our personalities and by nature were all the same? EDIT: clarification EDIT 2: If so, how did you arrive at this belief? Because I believe intelligence, at the very least, exists to some extent. That changes decisions, and thereby changes experiences. Other things, such as emotional quotient are also pre-determined to some extent. They can be developed, but your base talent (for lack of a better word) at these subjects comes in to play + Show Spoiler +yadyadya just my opinion, not trying to pick a fight, just truly wondering how you arrived at your conclusion I don't think I am a body or a brain. Sure, intelligence - in whatever terms it is defined - exists. And you can say that it determines [x]. Or you can say that genetics determines [y]. Or that your upbringing determines [z]. But none of these things are me. My experiences are linked to them, sure. But they are not those things theirselves. I am not my body or my brain. I am my experiences. But... Your experiences are different then others who would be in the same circumstances aa x y and z. what? why is that? if someone else was in my circumstance they would experience what I experience.
And try as you might you ARE your brain or your body, as your perception changes your experience.
try as I might? no I am not my brain or my body. I am experiences. my experiences are not my brain and my body, they are just linked to them. you cannot say conclusively that the experiences come from the brain or the body. there is no proof of this. there isn't even any evidence of this. all there is evidence of is linkage. Sorry, i'm bad at the quote thing! I'm just gonna use roman numerals I. Because they would react differently. They are more or less intelligent then you. Their feelings are different than your, their experiences inevitable change, they can't possibly have the exact same experiences as you because they are different than you. II.Yeah, but experiences are linked to who you are. Not everyone reacts the same way, and you play a part in forming your experiences. Therefore you help shape your experiences. EDIT: For example we are living identical lives. We both make the decision to take the SAT. We study the same amount. Our experiences are exactly the same EXCEPT you are smarter than me. You score higher. At that point the experience chang
You are crap at arguing, let me help you:
The way we perceive the world is 100% linked to physical traits, without eyes you can't see and without ears you can't hear. Therefore even though two persons have exactly the same experience if one were blind and the other not they would experience the same situation extremely differently. In the same way by having different brain structures and different chemical concentrations in your blood will also fundamentally change the way you experience your surroundings.
The reactions to what you are currently experiencing is partly a sum of what you have experienced, however since different people forget different things and have different memory capabilities even if two people have experienced exactly the same things in exactly the same way their experiences will still differ due to their different ways of memorization.
But if you take all things together, what you have experienced and in what ways, what if that you remember and with what are you currently experiencing the world you can get the personality. However that's just a dumb workaround for saying that a person as a whole is a person as a whole.
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On November 30 2008 10:09 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2008 10:01 travis wrote:On November 30 2008 09:54 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 09:52 travis wrote:On November 30 2008 09:28 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 04:31 travis wrote:
I think the ultimate drive force for good and a higher morality is the understanding that the only thing separating your experiences and the experiences of another is "when" and "where". So you believe nurture creates our personalities and by nature were all the same? EDIT: clarification EDIT 2: If so, how did you arrive at this belief? Because I believe intelligence, at the very least, exists to some extent. That changes decisions, and thereby changes experiences. Other things, such as emotional quotient are also pre-determined to some extent. They can be developed, but your base talent (for lack of a better word) at these subjects comes in to play + Show Spoiler +yadyadya just my opinion, not trying to pick a fight, just truly wondering how you arrived at your conclusion I don't think I am a body or a brain. Sure, intelligence - in whatever terms it is defined - exists. And you can say that it determines [x]. Or you can say that genetics determines [y]. Or that your upbringing determines [z]. But none of these things are me. My experiences are linked to them, sure. But they are not those things theirselves. I am not my body or my brain. I am my experiences. But... Your experiences are different then others who would be in the same circumstances aa x y and z. what? why is that? if someone else was in my circumstance they would experience what I experience.
And try as you might you ARE your brain or your body, as your perception changes your experience.
try as I might? no I am not my brain or my body. I am experiences. my experiences are not my brain and my body, they are just linked to them. you cannot say conclusively that the experiences come from the brain or the body. there is no proof of this. there isn't even any evidence of this. all there is evidence of is linkage. Sorry, i'm bad at the quote thing! I'm just gonna use roman numerals I. Because they would react differently. They are more or less intelligent then you. Their feelings are different than your, their experiences inevitable change, they can't possibly have the exact same experiences as you because they are different than you.
I think you misinterpret what I mean by circumstances. I consider everything outside of my control to be circumstances.
Everything I was born with is circumstances.
My body is circumstances. My intelligence is circumstances. My attitudes and behaviors are circumstances. It's all circumstances.
everything on the surface in this physical realm is circumstances. and I am not even sure if there is anything more, I am not sure if we transcend anything or have any control whatsoever. do you believe we have any control over what we do, beyond the mere experiencing of control?
anyways, the point I was making is pretty basic I think I can safely assume that you understood what I meant now.
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On November 30 2008 10:18 travis wrote:
Everything I was born with is circumstances.
My body is circumstances. My intelligence is circumstances. My attitudes and behaviors are circumstances. It's all circumstances.
So a cow should be considered a fellow experiencer and therefore have the same rights as a human?
Your logic actually do not hold, now that I see what exactly you are trying to say.
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On November 30 2008 10:13 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2008 09:52 travis wrote:On November 30 2008 09:28 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 04:31 travis wrote:
I think the ultimate drive force for good and a higher morality is the understanding that the only thing separating your experiences and the experiences of another is "when" and "where". So you believe nurture creates our personalities and by nature were all the same? EDIT: clarification EDIT 2: If so, how did you arrive at this belief? Because I believe intelligence, at the very least, exists to some extent. That changes decisions, and thereby changes experiences. Other things, such as emotional quotient are also pre-determined to some extent. They can be developed, but your base talent (for lack of a better word) at these subjects comes in to play + Show Spoiler +yadyadya just my opinion, not trying to pick a fight, just truly wondering how you arrived at your conclusion I don't think I am a body or a brain. Sure, intelligence - in whatever terms it is defined - exists. And you can say that it determines [x]. Or you can say that genetics determines [y]. Or that your upbringing determines [z]. But none of these things are me. My experiences are linked to them, sure. But they are not those things theirselves. I am not my body or my brain. I am my experiences. So how is this different from spirituality or any other kind of new age crap?
dude what does that even mean. look up the word "spirituality". what you are saying is incredibly vague.
Fact is, we can erase your memory and you will still be you, just without your "experiences".
You don't understand what I mean.
Yes, there is a physical world that is measurable.
Yes, each human being has the form of a body, with organs and systems and a brain that has measurable activity that corresponds with our thoughts and emotions.
No, I do not believe we are that body, nor do I believe we are that brain, nor do I believe we are the activity in that brain.
You can erase my memory and I will still be me, yes. You can remove my arms and legs and I will still be me. You can replace parts of my brain with artificial parts and I will still be me. You can put me to sleep with a tranquilizer and I will still be me. This is not relevant to what I am saying.
I am not saying that the physical realm does not exist. What I am saying is that we are not a part of it. What I am saying is what buddhism is.
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On November 30 2008 10:13 Klockan3 wrote:
You are crap at arguing, let me help you:
maybe he isn't trying to win the gigantic e-penis award? ever think about that?
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On November 30 2008 10:21 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2008 10:18 travis wrote:
Everything I was born with is circumstances.
My body is circumstances. My intelligence is circumstances. My attitudes and behaviors are circumstances. It's all circumstances.
So a cow should be considered a fellow experiencer and therefore have the same rights as a human? Your logic actually do not hold, now that I see what exactly you are trying to say.
a cow is a fellow experiencer yes.
same rights as a human?
a cow is not a human
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On November 30 2008 10:18 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2008 10:09 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 10:01 travis wrote:On November 30 2008 09:54 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 09:52 travis wrote:On November 30 2008 09:28 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 04:31 travis wrote:
I think the ultimate drive force for good and a higher morality is the understanding that the only thing separating your experiences and the experiences of another is "when" and "where". So you believe nurture creates our personalities and by nature were all the same? EDIT: clarification EDIT 2: If so, how did you arrive at this belief? Because I believe intelligence, at the very least, exists to some extent. That changes decisions, and thereby changes experiences. Other things, such as emotional quotient are also pre-determined to some extent. They can be developed, but your base talent (for lack of a better word) at these subjects comes in to play + Show Spoiler +yadyadya just my opinion, not trying to pick a fight, just truly wondering how you arrived at your conclusion I don't think I am a body or a brain. Sure, intelligence - in whatever terms it is defined - exists. And you can say that it determines [x]. Or you can say that genetics determines [y]. Or that your upbringing determines [z]. But none of these things are me. My experiences are linked to them, sure. But they are not those things theirselves. I am not my body or my brain. I am my experiences. But... Your experiences are different then others who would be in the same circumstances aa x y and z. what? why is that? if someone else was in my circumstance they would experience what I experience.
And try as you might you ARE your brain or your body, as your perception changes your experience.
try as I might? no I am not my brain or my body. I am experiences. my experiences are not my brain and my body, they are just linked to them. you cannot say conclusively that the experiences come from the brain or the body. there is no proof of this. there isn't even any evidence of this. all there is evidence of is linkage. Sorry, i'm bad at the quote thing! I'm just gonna use roman numerals I. Because they would react differently. They are more or less intelligent then you. Their feelings are different than your, their experiences inevitable change, they can't possibly have the exact same experiences as you because they are different than you. I think you misinterpret what I mean by circumstances. I consider everything outside of my control to be circumstances. Everything I was born with is circumstances. My body is circumstances. My intelligence is circumstances. My attitudes and behaviors are circumstances. It's all circumstances. everything on the surface in this physical realm is circumstances. and I am not even sure if there is anything more, I am not sure if we transcend anything or have any control whatsoever. do you believe we have any control over what we do, beyond the mere experiencing of control? anyways, the point I was making is pretty basic I think I can safely assume that you understood what I meant now.
The fact is, a lot of what happens with us is determined by things outside our control. But, we must not allow that to rule our lives, or we allow our predetermined selves to be evil. We must therefore prove that we are not destined to be killers or muderers or this or that, but instead people who are productive.
Anyways back to the point, the very first one you made. We have innate personality features. Your intelligence and everything else is not determined by experience. So what separates you from another person could be your moral fiber and intelligence not your experiences.
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On November 30 2008 10:31 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2008 10:18 travis wrote:On November 30 2008 10:09 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 10:01 travis wrote:On November 30 2008 09:54 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 09:52 travis wrote:On November 30 2008 09:28 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 04:31 travis wrote:
I think the ultimate drive force for good and a higher morality is the understanding that the only thing separating your experiences and the experiences of another is "when" and "where". So you believe nurture creates our personalities and by nature were all the same? EDIT: clarification EDIT 2: If so, how did you arrive at this belief? Because I believe intelligence, at the very least, exists to some extent. That changes decisions, and thereby changes experiences. Other things, such as emotional quotient are also pre-determined to some extent. They can be developed, but your base talent (for lack of a better word) at these subjects comes in to play + Show Spoiler +yadyadya just my opinion, not trying to pick a fight, just truly wondering how you arrived at your conclusion I don't think I am a body or a brain. Sure, intelligence - in whatever terms it is defined - exists. And you can say that it determines [x]. Or you can say that genetics determines [y]. Or that your upbringing determines [z]. But none of these things are me. My experiences are linked to them, sure. But they are not those things theirselves. I am not my body or my brain. I am my experiences. But... Your experiences are different then others who would be in the same circumstances aa x y and z. what? why is that? if someone else was in my circumstance they would experience what I experience.
And try as you might you ARE your brain or your body, as your perception changes your experience.
try as I might? no I am not my brain or my body. I am experiences. my experiences are not my brain and my body, they are just linked to them. you cannot say conclusively that the experiences come from the brain or the body. there is no proof of this. there isn't even any evidence of this. all there is evidence of is linkage. Sorry, i'm bad at the quote thing! I'm just gonna use roman numerals I. Because they would react differently. They are more or less intelligent then you. Their feelings are different than your, their experiences inevitable change, they can't possibly have the exact same experiences as you because they are different than you. I think you misinterpret what I mean by circumstances. I consider everything outside of my control to be circumstances. Everything I was born with is circumstances. My body is circumstances. My intelligence is circumstances. My attitudes and behaviors are circumstances. It's all circumstances. everything on the surface in this physical realm is circumstances. and I am not even sure if there is anything more, I am not sure if we transcend anything or have any control whatsoever. do you believe we have any control over what we do, beyond the mere experiencing of control? anyways, the point I was making is pretty basic I think I can safely assume that you understood what I meant now. The fact is, a lot of what happens with us is determined by things outside our control. But, we must not allow that to rule our lives, or we allow our predetermined selves to be evil. We must therefore prove that we are not destined to be killers or muderers or this or that, but instead people who are productive.
what is within our control?
Anyways back to the point, the very first one you made. We have innate personality features. Your intelligence and everything else is not determined by experience. So what separates you from another person could be your moral fiber and intelligence not your experiences.
What I am saying is that "your intelligence and everything else" is like descriptions of what you are. They are not what you are.
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To Klochan3: The point here isn't to be the 'best arguer'
Do I disagree with what Travis says?
Often times yes.
Does that mean I should insult him out of hand and try to categorically disprove what he has to say not matter what it is?
Of course not.
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On November 30 2008 10:38 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2008 10:31 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 10:18 travis wrote:On November 30 2008 10:09 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 10:01 travis wrote:On November 30 2008 09:54 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 09:52 travis wrote:On November 30 2008 09:28 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 04:31 travis wrote:
I think the ultimate drive force for good and a higher morality is the understanding that the only thing separating your experiences and the experiences of another is "when" and "where". So you believe nurture creates our personalities and by nature were all the same? EDIT: clarification EDIT 2: If so, how did you arrive at this belief? Because I believe intelligence, at the very least, exists to some extent. That changes decisions, and thereby changes experiences. Other things, such as emotional quotient are also pre-determined to some extent. They can be developed, but your base talent (for lack of a better word) at these subjects comes in to play + Show Spoiler +yadyadya just my opinion, not trying to pick a fight, just truly wondering how you arrived at your conclusion I don't think I am a body or a brain. Sure, intelligence - in whatever terms it is defined - exists. And you can say that it determines [x]. Or you can say that genetics determines [y]. Or that your upbringing determines [z]. But none of these things are me. My experiences are linked to them, sure. But they are not those things theirselves. I am not my body or my brain. I am my experiences. But... Your experiences are different then others who would be in the same circumstances aa x y and z. what? why is that? if someone else was in my circumstance they would experience what I experience.
And try as you might you ARE your brain or your body, as your perception changes your experience.
try as I might? no I am not my brain or my body. I am experiences. my experiences are not my brain and my body, they are just linked to them. you cannot say conclusively that the experiences come from the brain or the body. there is no proof of this. there isn't even any evidence of this. all there is evidence of is linkage. Sorry, i'm bad at the quote thing! I'm just gonna use roman numerals I. Because they would react differently. They are more or less intelligent then you. Their feelings are different than your, their experiences inevitable change, they can't possibly have the exact same experiences as you because they are different than you. I think you misinterpret what I mean by circumstances. I consider everything outside of my control to be circumstances. Everything I was born with is circumstances. My body is circumstances. My intelligence is circumstances. My attitudes and behaviors are circumstances. It's all circumstances. everything on the surface in this physical realm is circumstances. and I am not even sure if there is anything more, I am not sure if we transcend anything or have any control whatsoever. do you believe we have any control over what we do, beyond the mere experiencing of control? anyways, the point I was making is pretty basic I think I can safely assume that you understood what I meant now. The fact is, a lot of what happens with us is determined by things outside our control. But, we must not allow that to rule our lives, or we allow our predetermined selves to be evil. We must therefore prove that we are not destined to be killers or muderers or this or that, but instead people who are productive. what is within our control? Show nested quote +
Anyways back to the point, the very first one you made. We have innate personality features. Your intelligence and everything else is not determined by experience. So what separates you from another person could be your moral fiber and intelligence not your experiences.
What I am saying is that "your intelligence and everything else" is like descriptions of what you are. They are not what you are.
I. Nothing is within our control. Except our decisions now. Whether they are pre-determined or not, it does not diminish the worth of making good decisions and bad decisions.
II. This is where, I think, we are going to have to agree to disagree. Your personality, your intelligence, your emotional capacity, that is what you are. Your experiences are an expression of that persona.
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On November 30 2008 10:28 travis wrote:
What I am saying is what buddhism is.
Couldn't you have said that from the start?
On November 30 2008 10:39 DamageControL wrote:
To Klochan3: The point here isn't to be the 'best arguer'
I do not try to be the best arguer, I try to get points across, do not matter if its mine, yours, travis or anyone else arguing. For me argumentations are about learning, and nothing hurts more than seeing a person lay out interesting points but leaving a ton of holes in it which means that the recipient will just poke hole in the points and once again stalling the discussion.
I want to see how others see things, and to do that you need to get them to stop rehashing the mantras of their opinions sides and instead start actually talking about their own personal beliefs on the matter. And usually the only way to remove all the generic arguments in one go, either by crushing them instantly or laying all of them out and thus showing that you are not ignorant on the subject and instead wants to talk to them and not their pamphlet.
And excuse my tone, it is just that trying to argue with a religious person is like trying to bang your head against a wall and I did not this time expect it which made me a bit frustrated.
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On November 30 2008 11:01 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2008 10:28 travis wrote:
What I am saying is what buddhism is. Couldn't you have said that from the start?
it is my ideas, it is just coincidence that it is also what buddhism believes.
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On November 30 2008 10:42 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2008 10:38 travis wrote:On November 30 2008 10:31 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 10:18 travis wrote:On November 30 2008 10:09 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 10:01 travis wrote:On November 30 2008 09:54 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 09:52 travis wrote:On November 30 2008 09:28 DamageControL wrote:On November 30 2008 04:31 travis wrote:
I think the ultimate drive force for good and a higher morality is the understanding that the only thing separating your experiences and the experiences of another is "when" and "where". So you believe nurture creates our personalities and by nature were all the same? EDIT: clarification EDIT 2: If so, how did you arrive at this belief? Because I believe intelligence, at the very least, exists to some extent. That changes decisions, and thereby changes experiences. Other things, such as emotional quotient are also pre-determined to some extent. They can be developed, but your base talent (for lack of a better word) at these subjects comes in to play + Show Spoiler +yadyadya just my opinion, not trying to pick a fight, just truly wondering how you arrived at your conclusion I don't think I am a body or a brain. Sure, intelligence - in whatever terms it is defined - exists. And you can say that it determines [x]. Or you can say that genetics determines [y]. Or that your upbringing determines [z]. But none of these things are me. My experiences are linked to them, sure. But they are not those things theirselves. I am not my body or my brain. I am my experiences. But... Your experiences are different then others who would be in the same circumstances aa x y and z. what? why is that? if someone else was in my circumstance they would experience what I experience.
And try as you might you ARE your brain or your body, as your perception changes your experience.
try as I might? no I am not my brain or my body. I am experiences. my experiences are not my brain and my body, they are just linked to them. you cannot say conclusively that the experiences come from the brain or the body. there is no proof of this. there isn't even any evidence of this. all there is evidence of is linkage. Sorry, i'm bad at the quote thing! I'm just gonna use roman numerals I. Because they would react differently. They are more or less intelligent then you. Their feelings are different than your, their experiences inevitable change, they can't possibly have the exact same experiences as you because they are different than you. I think you misinterpret what I mean by circumstances. I consider everything outside of my control to be circumstances. Everything I was born with is circumstances. My body is circumstances. My intelligence is circumstances. My attitudes and behaviors are circumstances. It's all circumstances. everything on the surface in this physical realm is circumstances. and I am not even sure if there is anything more, I am not sure if we transcend anything or have any control whatsoever. do you believe we have any control over what we do, beyond the mere experiencing of control? anyways, the point I was making is pretty basic I think I can safely assume that you understood what I meant now. The fact is, a lot of what happens with us is determined by things outside our control. But, we must not allow that to rule our lives, or we allow our predetermined selves to be evil. We must therefore prove that we are not destined to be killers or muderers or this or that, but instead people who are productive. what is within our control?
Anyways back to the point, the very first one you made. We have innate personality features. Your intelligence and everything else is not determined by experience. So what separates you from another person could be your moral fiber and intelligence not your experiences.
What I am saying is that "your intelligence and everything else" is like descriptions of what you are. They are not what you are. I. Nothing is within our control. Except our decisions now. Whether they are pre-determined or not, it does not diminish the worth of making good decisions and bad decisions.
well said
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travis destroyed poor swede. let him breathe lol
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EPT
