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Am I being selfish? - Page 2

Blogs > kdog3683
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HeadBangaa
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States6512 Posts
November 29 2008 16:50 GMT
#21
Altruism is apparent in the animal kingdom, even in contexts that have no potential for reciprocity. It's an evolved trait and a basic sign of culture; when the individuals begin to think more like a collective, that gives them an advantage.
To says altruism doesn't exist makes me think strange of you, since you've apparently never felt the warm-fuzzies of helping someone just because they needed it =[
People who fail to distinguish Socratic Method from malicious trolling are sadly stupid and not worth a response.
Archaic
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States4024 Posts
November 29 2008 17:08 GMT
#22
On November 30 2008 01:01 SayaSP wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2008 00:33 inReacH wrote:
you are talking about fallout 3 right?

.................. lol

^^

Karma doesn't exist, my friend.
DamageControL
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States4222 Posts
November 29 2008 17:27 GMT
#23
On November 29 2008 22:22 niteReloaded wrote:
There is no good or bad.

Show nested quote +
On November 29 2008 19:40 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
On November 29 2008 19:39 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
cause if you look at it like that every selfless act is selfish and the word selfless has no meaning anymore because it does not exist

sounds kinda corny when i think about it, but theres a difference between doing it because it feels good and doing it because it feels right

former selfish, latter selfless

im not saying selfish is bad either..

Doing something because it feels right (when it doesn't feel good) is wrong IMO. Because you still do it for SOME reason. To be perceived as a good guy? lame...

No....not necessarily.
For example, I got this girl i like with this guy i also like. Not to be perceived as a good guy, but because they would be happier this way. And everyone has situations like those, where they give up something because it makes people they care about happier, or because its just the right thing to do.

Haven't you ever done something because it was right, not because it was fun for you?
Liquid | SKT
jgad
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada899 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-29 17:38:27
November 29 2008 17:34 GMT
#24
On November 30 2008 01:50 HeadBangaa wrote:
Altruism is apparent in the animal kingdom, even in contexts that have no potential for reciprocity. It's an evolved trait and a basic sign of culture; when the individuals begin to think more like a collective, that gives them an advantage.
To says altruism doesn't exist makes me think strange of you, since you've apparently never felt the warm-fuzzies of helping someone just because they needed it =[


The point is that those warm fuzzies are nothing more than genetically encoded responses which have evolved on the sole basis that cooperation is mutually beneficial. In other words, your genes have built such responses into your brain because, in human society, it increases your chances of survival to be nice to other people - a selfish motive. More properly, I suppose, is to say that genes which did not build such responses into their hosts failed to create hosts which survived to reproduce. It's not something we have to cultivate - there's no work involved to get the warm fuzzy feeling. It happens automatically.

I'm interested to hear these examples of pure altrusm in the animal kingdom, though. Aside from kin selection - parents or siblings of animals giving their life for each other - I don't think pure altruism exists in nature. Even kin selection is essentially selfish if, like Dawkins, we consider the gene to be the fundamental unit. Parents protecting children is still an act of self-preservation, since the children represent the legacy of the family genes. There is always something gained by both parties in nature, I think.
콩까지마
DamageControL
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States4222 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-29 17:39:06
November 29 2008 17:37 GMT
#25
On November 30 2008 02:34 jgad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2008 01:50 HeadBangaa wrote:
Altruism is apparent in the animal kingdom, even in contexts that have no potential for reciprocity. It's an evolved trait and a basic sign of culture; when the individuals begin to think more like a collective, that gives them an advantage.
To says altruism doesn't exist makes me think strange of you, since you've apparently never felt the warm-fuzzies of helping someone just because they needed it =[


The point is that those warm fuzzies are nothing more than genetically encoded responses which have evolved on the sole basis that cooperation is mutually beneficial. I'm interested to hear these examples of pure altrusm in the animal kingdom, though. Aside from kin selection - parents or siblings of animals giving their life for each other - I don't think pure altruism exists in nature. Even kin selection is essentially selfish if, like Dawkins, we consider the gene to be the fundamental unit. Parents protecting children is still an act of self-preservation, since the children represent the legacy of the family genes. There is always something gained by both parties in nature, I think.

Monkeys take care of the disable who give no benefit to their society.
EDIT: My debate coach did her thesis on this, and essentially the idea is that because altruism is beneficial, those communities which have the capacity to be altruistic have survived.
Liquid | SKT
Frits
Profile Joined March 2003
11782 Posts
November 29 2008 17:42 GMT
#26
there is no such thing as karma
jgad
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada899 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-29 17:47:20
November 29 2008 17:45 GMT
#27
In those cases I would expect monkeys to be somewhat deficient in their capacity to assess the economics of the situation. More likely it is a fundamental parental instinct which reflexively cares for the lame. Humans do the same thing - consider pet owners who treat their animals like children. It's a misfiring of a programmed animal response. Modern conditions are such that these people are not risking starvation or death by overinvestment in a non-productive pet, so there is no driving force to quell the instinct, even when misdirected. In monkeys it could be much the same. The circumstances would be more telling. Even if it is merely an act of pleasure-seeking, the drive to experience "that warm fuzzy feeling" is ultimately selfish anyway. We can only be selfish. Our genes merely manipulate our selfishness in order to maximise our potential for productivity and success. In general, this means being cooperative, so we are.
콩까지마
clazziquai
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
6685 Posts
November 29 2008 17:47 GMT
#28
I don't believe in karma.........:D
#1 Sea.Really Fan / #1 Nesh Fan / Terran Forever~
cgrinker
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3824 Posts
November 29 2008 18:23 GMT
#29
Stop play Kojima video games it will make you feel better about life.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
November 29 2008 18:26 GMT
#30
the primary factor for karmic results is volition

if you aren't being put to a decision in the first place there won't be much karmic result
Physician *
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
United States4146 Posts
November 29 2008 18:39 GMT
#31
morality is often shaped by self-interest but I believe we will all give sometimes, not because of self-interest but because there is a drive in us to do so; this goes beyond simply self-interest
"I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...."
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
November 29 2008 18:53 GMT
#32
and people who say we can only be selfish don't actually know that. decisions driven by ego can only be selfish. but this does not mean all decisions are selfish.
Physician *
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
United States4146 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-29 19:27:31
November 29 2008 19:26 GMT
#33
related ~
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/robert_wright_on_optimism.html
~ he makes a case for "self interest" as the ultimate drive force for good and a higher morality.
"I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...."
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
November 29 2008 19:31 GMT
#34
I think the ultimate drive force for good and a higher morality is the understanding that the only thing separating your experiences and the experiences of another is "when" and "where".
Frits
Profile Joined March 2003
11782 Posts
November 29 2008 19:39 GMT
#35
On November 30 2008 04:31 travis wrote:
I think the ultimate drive force for good and a higher morality is the understanding that the only thing separating your experiences and the experiences of another is "when" and "where".


If you mean empathy just say so. You're always making stuff much more complicated than it is.
Klockan3
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Sweden2866 Posts
November 29 2008 19:41 GMT
#36
On November 30 2008 01:50 HeadBangaa wrote:
Altruism is apparent in the animal kingdom, even in contexts that have no potential for reciprocity. It's an evolved trait and a basic sign of culture; when the individuals begin to think more like a collective, that gives them an advantage.
To says altruism doesn't exist makes me think strange of you, since you've apparently never felt the warm-fuzzies of helping someone just because they needed it =[

Then you do it since your brain gives you marijuana afterwards, which is still a selfish goal.
ManBearPig
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Belgium207 Posts
November 29 2008 19:53 GMT
#37
Just because an act is followed by a pleasant feeling doesn't mean you did it because of that.
And yeah travis jesus if you wanna convey a thought try to make it as clear as possible, stop with the enigmas already lol
RoieTRS
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States2569 Posts
November 29 2008 19:55 GMT
#38
Is the president selfish if he kisses the baby just to make himself look good?
konadora, in Racenilatr's blog: "you need to stop thinking about starcraft or anything computer-related for that matter. It's becoming a bad addiction imo"
Klockan3
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Sweden2866 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-29 20:09:06
November 29 2008 20:04 GMT
#39
On November 30 2008 04:53 ManBearPig wrote:
Just because an act is followed by a pleasant feeling doesn't mean you did it because of that.

Yes it does, the intention of doing it from the start was because you are after that feeling.

Selfishness or selflessness have nothing to do with intentions, its just that you are being "selfish" when others are hurt in some way by your actions while "selfless" is when your actions also helps others. However all actions are done to get the best results for themselves, and therefore can be seen as selfish.

If you seriously thought that you would be happier if you killed a lot of people you would kill those people, but due to our emotions and a lot of such things we get a lot of negative feedback from killing people and thus you do not get happier from it.

Our emotions rewards us for helping those who we see as important for us.(Aka they help you in some way)

These actions can seem selfless but they really aren't, they are just a part of the game everyone is playing called "Trying to get the most mental rewards as possible in life", and everyone do their best to try to maximize their score in that game, none is doing anything which they themselves see as sub optimal ways to achieve that, that is an impossibility.

Being lazy just means that in your eyes the extra rest is worth more than the rewards given by working etc.
Physician *
Profile Blog Joined January 2004
United States4146 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-29 20:21:42
November 29 2008 20:11 GMT
#40
On November 30 2008 04:39 Frits wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2008 04:31 travis wrote:
I think the ultimate drive force for good and a higher morality is the understanding that the only thing separating your experiences and the experiences of another is "when" and "where".


If you mean empathy just say so. You're always making stuff much more complicated than it is.


Well because he didn't mean "empathy" but something more basic and simple.. in fact he actually is tacitly implying empathy is redundant. i.e. he is implying we are all essentially similar, or the same, and under the same circumstances our experiences would be similar, thus making empathy redundant. The opposite of course is also tacitly implied - that under different circumstances, our experiences are obviously different, making empathy ever more valid.. and hence his claim that the ultimate drive force for good and a higher morality is understanding.. in his example, understanding of circumstance and the fact that we are all the same i.e. humans bound by our nature.


"I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...."
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