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On August 29 2008 16:55 0xDEADBEEF wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2008 16:06 H_ wrote:
It's true, TvZ is horribly imbalanced and nobody should be playing it because it is impossible for the Zerg to win No, silly. It just means that most maps will have stats showing T>Z, and that the Zerg has to put in more effort into his play than the Terran. The imbalance is small enough so that it doesn't mean that no Zerg will ever have a chance, but it is still there and noticeable when you look at map stats (the chance for Zerg to win is like 40-45%, as opposed to 50% which SHOULD be the case). The result are map stats of like 20-10 or 20-15 in favor of T. Which is nearly the case with every modern map, except Blue Storm. You want hard proof? See TLPD: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hot-mapsOn every map except Blue Storm (Zerg leads, yay) and Return of the King (tied, 2-2), Terran leads the statistics of TvZ. And on former maps it was exactly like that, too. Python is considered very balanced, right? TvZ 45-31 (59.2%)
The number of good Terran progamers is far greater that the number of Zergs residing in the same skill area. This is an alternate explanation that you should consider, not just blame all on maps.
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And to counter that argument you could say that the reason there are more good terrans than zergs is because it's much easier to reach that status with terran than with zerg
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lurkers... get them 
Ive lost count of how many MnM ive lost because i didnt see the lurks in time 
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Zerg is definitely vulnerable Early and mid game till lurkers come for a while and you become safe. Then Vessels come, well once that happens you should already have THE MOST useful spell caster of all time!! Defiler, terran army evaporates with it! Plague DS, Then the most horrifying crazy COWS come!! As a Zerg I think once you have the skill to survive till mid game, once you reach late game you really gain a huge advantage!
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On August 29 2008 21:10 minus_human wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2008 16:55 0xDEADBEEF wrote:On August 29 2008 16:06 H_ wrote:
It's true, TvZ is horribly imbalanced and nobody should be playing it because it is impossible for the Zerg to win No, silly. It just means that most maps will have stats showing T>Z, and that the Zerg has to put in more effort into his play than the Terran. The imbalance is small enough so that it doesn't mean that no Zerg will ever have a chance, but it is still there and noticeable when you look at map stats (the chance for Zerg to win is like 40-45%, as opposed to 50% which SHOULD be the case). The result are map stats of like 20-10 or 20-15 in favor of T. Which is nearly the case with every modern map, except Blue Storm. You want hard proof? See TLPD: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hot-mapsOn every map except Blue Storm (Zerg leads, yay) and Return of the King (tied, 2-2), Terran leads the statistics of TvZ. And on former maps it was exactly like that, too. Python is considered very balanced, right? TvZ 45-31 (59.2%) The number of good Terran progamers is far greater that the number of Zergs residing in the same skill area. This is an alternate explanation that you should consider, not just blame all on maps.
True, but maybe they're only better *because* of this slight imbalance. 
And about lurkers or dark swarm: they're very effective at "low" levels (foreigner) but in pro games the Terrans can handle them damn well. You're not seeing marines carelessly wander into lurker spines unless the player *wants* to engage them (of course he'll spread the marines properly then) or it was a lurker trap he couldn't see yet b/c of no vessels.
The better the Terran's multitasking, the better they are against lurkers and swarm. They'll simply outmicro the lurkers or step back from the swarm with *minimal* losses. And that's a problem.
Lurkers *are* very good against marines - but only if they are able to hit them. 
Same with swarm: while powerful at lower levels, pros are very good at dodging them and not letting the defilers come close to the base entrance. The Terran can "simply" improve his multitasking in order to dodge lurkers, while the Zerg can't do anything to improve his lurkers. They're slow in shooting and burrowing, and then they are then *stationary* and the marines need to run into them. That's the biggest problem. Swarm is stationary too. The worse Terran's multitasking/reaction is, the more powerful swarm/lurkers are because T will lose a great deal of M&M in it. Mere seconds matter and can decide a game.
But as your multitasking/reaction improves, the Zerg will just sit in his nice clouds and hit nothing. And while he's sitting there not hitting anything and waiting for reinforcements, his defilers get irradiated. And maybe his base dropped.
When skill levels were lower, in around 2004-2005, we saw much more lurker/ling attacks or attacks on the T base with swarms. These days, Z won't even get so far anymore (usually). Lurkers and swarms are used mostly as a defense, while the Z tries to secure his 2 needed expansions for ultras (not counting the FE), because only then he can start being truly offensive.
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totally unfair what about stop lurkers? terran makes 1 mistake and his army is gone :O
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On August 29 2008 13:15 Luddite wrote:
I can't believe how rigged tvz is. Everytime he makes a mistake, I get s small advantage. But if I make any mistakes, BOOM, gg.
It's like, oh, 12 speedlings in his base? Well, if I dance them around very well I can pick off a few scvs, great. Of course I can't directly attack his scvs, because his giant robot workers will completely dominate my fragile little dogs.
But if he gets a small force of M and M in my base, all my workers go pop pop pop done. I'm like, oh shit, better send all my zerglings to stop them. Double the supply, should be enough, right? Except that if I don't time the flank perfectly, all my poor zerglings die before doing ANY DAMAGE AT ALL.
GRRRRR this is frustrating. So tired of losing games where I build up a huge early game advantage, only to lose it all to some stupid micro blunder.
ur biased as fuck. have you ever seen mutas rip terrans apart? do you have any idea how gay a defiler is?
12 speedlings in his base is a LOT of trouble for terran. you could probably kill up to 6 scvs if you are careful about it. marines are weak as fuck. if terran doesnt build a bunker and does 1 rax FE, 3 hatch speedlings will most likely end the game. have you ever seen defiler usage? put a fucking nydus linkin from main to third. place 2 lurks at third. if terran goes to third, saend defiler thru nydus and swarm over lurks. teran can only irradiate now. no problem, scourges.
do you have any idea how gay zerg backstabs are? terran moves out, zerg goes in, omfg what a gay game.
stop lurker anyone?
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rofl good thing i play toss
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On August 30 2008 01:14 ramen247 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2008 13:15 Luddite wrote:
I can't believe how rigged tvz is. Everytime he makes a mistake, I get s small advantage. But if I make any mistakes, BOOM, gg.
It's like, oh, 12 speedlings in his base? Well, if I dance them around very well I can pick off a few scvs, great. Of course I can't directly attack his scvs, because his giant robot workers will completely dominate my fragile little dogs.
But if he gets a small force of M and M in my base, all my workers go pop pop pop done. I'm like, oh shit, better send all my zerglings to stop them. Double the supply, should be enough, right? Except that if I don't time the flank perfectly, all my poor zerglings die before doing ANY DAMAGE AT ALL.
GRRRRR this is frustrating. So tired of losing games where I build up a huge early game advantage, only to lose it all to some stupid micro blunder. ur biased as fuck. have you ever seen mutas rip terrans apart? do you have any idea how gay a defiler is? 12 speedlings in his base is a LOT of trouble for terran. you could probably kill up to 6 scvs if you are careful about it. marines are weak as fuck. if terran doesnt build a bunker and does 1 rax FE, 3 hatch speedlings will most likely end the game. have you ever seen defiler usage? put a fucking nydus linkin from main to third. place 2 lurks at third. if terran goes to third, saend defiler thru nydus and swarm over lurks. teran can only irradiate now. no problem, scourges. do you have any idea how gay zerg backstabs are? terran moves out, zerg goes in, omfg what a gay game. stop lurker anyone?
I think that if Zerg were any weaker (defilers for example, because many complain about how "gay" they are), the games at pro level would be Terran raping Zergs 95% of the time.
Defilers are only "overpowered" for low-level play, but they're almost UNDERpowered on pro level these days.
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Try a three hatch ling break. You would be amazed how often terrans are unprepared for 40 lings early game (especially when they 1 rax fe).
12 hatch
11 pool
13 hatch
6 lings - - > gas
100 gas only, then stop mining.
After your initial ling are out, start pumping drones. You MUST kill his scouting SCV before starting to make lings. The thing is that most lower level terrans won's suspect the ling break, will see the three hatch economy, and assume they'll be safe with a bunker and a control group of M&M. Then BAM! 40 lings hit and gg.
Two other things to keep in mind. If he sends another scout, make sure to kill it off with 8ish lings and don't let him see that you're massing lings.
Also, when you attack, make sure to surround effeciently. move click one group of lings to the back left of his M&M, one to the back right, then attack move a third right in the front. If he has firebat(s), make special care not to clump them.
ZvT made easy
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On August 29 2008 13:32 Luddite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2008 13:22 DeathByMonkeys wrote:
Lol, and when I go back to macro for 2 seconds in my base my 36 MnM run into 3 lurks and poof... Not to mention invincibility swarm in my base = dead, and its damn near impossible to set up a 3rd, lets not forget imbalisks: when you get over 6 im essentially fucked
Edit will continue rant later after a couple more TvZ losses You don't have to move your MnM, just park them next to your seige tanks and let them rape the zergs base from 200 miles away. Swarms are like, "oh he cast a swarm, I guess i'll move back a few steps". And why do you even need a 3rd? Terrans don't even need to expand, they can easily win off of 2 or even 1 base. Imbalisks are like, the reward you get for surviving such bullshit before that in the matchup.
Personally I hate it when I am trying to kill an expo, and then the zerg casts swarm on top of my siege tanks. Zerglings run in, and my tanks pop like balloons. There goes my plan of raping the zerg's base 200 miles away
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EPT
