On July 31 2008 04:11 Boblion wrote: The use of " we " in the poem makes me laught. I didnt know that " we " means members of the communist party.
Btw the huge nationalism surge in China is disgusting.
The only reason there's nationalism in China recently is because of certain pro-Tibet sentiments held by certain countries (i.e. France) that have been very antagonistic.
If a bunch of people started protesting everywhere that France is a bunch of lazy socialist unions incapable of running their economy or working hard, and proceed to use derogatory terms in the process, and suggest that certain natural disasters are “karma,” wouldn’t you feel some strong nationalism?
And himuraken, you’re right there. The Chinese government oppress a lot for certain. But they are growing just like Taiwan once did-brute force economical liberty with little-to-no civil and political liberties. What are they like today? Taiwan, according to some group I forgot, has a higher civil liberties rating than the United States. There will be a “revolution” although I doubt it would be a war but rather the rise of the next generation as the last of Mao’s cult dies off.
note: I am strongly opposed to the Chinese P.R.O.C. government, not the R.O.C.
The only reason there's nationalism in China recently is because of certain pro-Tibet sentiments held by certain countries (i.e. France) that have been very antagonistic.
LOL what ? antagonistic ? Facts ?
On July 31 2008 04:36 Caller wrote: If a bunch of people started protesting everywhere that France is a bunch of lazy socialist unions incapable of running their economy or working hard, and proceed to use derogatory terms in the process, and suggest that certain natural disasters are “karma,” wouldn’t you feel some strong nationalism?
Not at all. I would just laught. "Good-old" French-bashing has never made me feel nationalist nevertheless people stupidity has always amazed me.
Politics should be kept away from sports. Especially the olympic games. Jesus the whole purpose of the Games is for all the countries to come together, forget their differences, and compete amongst each other in a respectful, honorable way. Instead we have this Tibet crisis spewing it's bile everywhere. People have no respect for the Games anymore.
On July 31 2008 04:13 himurakenshin wrote: the chinese government is bad. i don't like it. why do they have to block history from their own people? like 6-4 tianamen square. most people don't know about it. even chinese ppl in canada think it was some stupid students. they don't know it was for democracy.
The Chinese government does censor information from citizens and if that makes it "bad", then yes, you're right. However, I doubt the censorship is as bad as most people think. I'm a Chinese Canadian and I'm fully aware that the students in Tiananmen square were protesting for democracy.
i think there will be a revolution soon. if they want to follow capitalism then there is no more communism. the government just doesn't want to give up their power. they assume the common chinaman is stupid, and shouldn't vote. that they don't know whats good for them.
Democracy doesn't instantly solve everything. You have a country slightly larger than the United States with more than 3 times the population and half as much resources. Ok, assume a revolution does occur, what will happen? Freedom? Liberty? That won't change the fact that half the population is in poverty.
india is the second most populous country in asia, and they have democracy. they have free press. they don't have the criticism that china has. their cultures are similar. so chinese ppl shouldn't say that democracy isn't possible for a large number of people.
When did someone say democracy isn't possible for a large number of people?
chinese ppl are too proud to admit their own faults. USA is the greatest nation to ever be established in the world to date. All other countries aren't even close. The difference in GDP is 10^12 = 1 trillion dollars difference between china and the US. people openly make fun of the leader and the government. people feel free to do so and I like it. i'm not afraid to say that I think the government is bad. but in china people are afraid to say it. they are afraid to critize the government. in many cases its illegal.
please chinese ppl don't support such a system, out of fear.
Just because there isn't free speech doesn't mean people aren't afraid to criticize the government. When I visited, people were far from afraid of commenting on the faults of the nation. However, people are also aware that there is little that can be done about it.
stop thinking that china is the next great country. stop thinking taht just because japan produces some anime that people are followign what u call "asian culture" there isn't such a thing. asian culture is just a knock off of american culture. plus asia isn't just china japan korea. there are other countries in asia. idontknow why yellow ppl use the term asian when there are other races other than yellow in asia.
lol. What does anime have to do with anything?
China is not as bad as most people seem to think. It's a developing nation and it's plagued by the same problems faced by every other developing nation. There aren't any officers patrolling the streets arresting anyone who slanders the communist party. People don't cower in their homes, praying that the thought police won't break in and make everyone disappear. As expected, however, the general quality of life is significantly lower than that in a developed nation. If you don't believe me, visit China for vacation some time. Chances are, you'll be pleasantly surprised.
The only reason there's nationalism in China recently is because of certain pro-Tibet sentiments held by certain countries (i.e. France) that have been very antagonistic.
On July 31 2008 04:36 Caller wrote: If a bunch of people started protesting everywhere that France is a bunch of lazy socialist unions incapable of running their economy or working hard, and proceed to use derogatory terms in the process, and suggest that certain natural disasters are “karma,” wouldn’t you feel some strong nationalism?
Not at all. I would just laught. "Good-old" French-bashing has never made me feel nationalist nevertheless people stupidity has always amazed me.
You or I may not react violently to racial remarks, but Chinese people tend to see themselves as fighting against the world. They, unlike the French, have been unwillingly oppressed (sorry, could not resist)too many times by foreigners, and thus Chinese people tend to be antagonistic to any sort of "imperialism" suggestion.
You cant say that France is antagonistic to China because of a demonstration by a small number of pro-Tibet activists lol moreover Sarkozy will be in China for the games ( Anyway i dont understand why it would be antagonistic if he would not come ).
But yea i understand Chinese people arent used to demonstrations so they think that the French government is clearly bad mannered. Those activists should be send in prison !
Protesters have burnt French flags in front of French-owned supermarkets in the eastern Chinese city of Qingdao, called for boycotts of French goods
Looks like Chinese people are more antagonistic ...
On July 31 2008 05:17 Caller wrote: You or I may not react violently to racial remarks, but Chinese people tend to see themselves as fighting against the world.
It isnt my fault if they have a retarded national ego thanks to propaganda.
On July 31 2008 05:17 Caller wrote: They, unlike the French, have been unwillingly oppressed (sorry, could not resist)too many times by foreigners, and thus Chinese people tend to be antagonistic to any sort of "imperialism" suggestion.
Rolf Please learn history.
edit: my last sentence makes me look like a pretentious douche but seriously what can i answer to the "French" joke + " omfg poor Chinese were opressed 60 years ago " combo ?
I find it ironic that the poem purports to be speak for all Chinese and is addressed to "the West" while complaining about generalizations and stereotypes made about China.
On July 31 2008 04:51 TheTyranid wrote: Politics should be kept away from sports. Especially the olympic games. Jesus the whole purpose of the Games is for all the countries to come together, forget their differences, and compete amongst each other in a respectful, honorable way. Instead we have this Tibet crisis spewing it's bile everywhere. People have no respect for the Games anymore.
Maybe that was the original purpose when they brought it back, but since the mid-1930s the Olympics have been largely political.
You cant say that France is antagonistic to China because of a demonstration by a small number of pro-Tibet activists lol moreover Sarkozy will be in China for the games ( Anyway i dont understand why it would be antagonistic if he would not come ).
But yea i understand Chinese people arent used to demonstrations so they think that the French government is clearly bad mannered. Those activists should be send in prison !
Of course it's not. But the Chinese take it as that because I don't know about you, but I don't see any counterprotestors that aren't Chinese.
Protesters have burnt French flags in front of French-owned supermarkets in the eastern Chinese city of Qingdao, called for boycotts of French goods
Looks like Chinese people are more antagonistic ...[/quote]
Did you actually pay attention to what had happened there? Did the Chinese start protesting the French first, or attack disabled people in wheelchairs?
It isnt my fault if they have a retarded national ego thanks to propaganda.
It isn't my fault either. But what makes you think a) Western media isn't propaganda free and b) other countries don't have retarded national egos? America for sure has one.
On July 31 2008 05:17 Caller wrote: They, unlike the French, have been unwillingly oppressed (sorry, could not resist)too many times by foreigners, and thus Chinese people tend to be antagonistic to any sort of "imperialism" suggestion.
Rolf Please learn history.
edit: my last sentence makes me look like a pretentious douche but seriously what can i answer to the "French" joke + " omfg poor Chinese were opressed 60 years ago " combo ?[/QUOTE]
mind you that's in 1937, not 1900.
And as for the french comment... a) it was rude i know but b)
please learn history is akin to nuclear launch detected in terms of internet debate.
On July 30 2008 19:31 Superiorwolf wrote: I've lived a wasted 15 years, but this has been something I've taken great offense in. You must be joking...? 'Omg, Tibet needs free human rights lolooolol yaya let's go bomb tha stupid crane's nest or wataever then we'll free Tibetans 4ever!!! ayayayaya!1!1!1shift+1!1!' In my stupidity, I feel like this is like, the most hypocritical thing I've heard of. 'They abused human rights! Let's go kill millions of innocent people!'
I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say.
"I don't get worked up that often, but this pisses me off, which makes it important and especially bad. This is um... click the links."
btw retrooper, it's only funny if you misinterpret my words in a way that agrees with standard grammar... apologies if you actually have a problem with my arguments and want a serious response.
On July 31 2008 01:35 {88}iNcontroL wrote: you wanna talk about terrorists and china as the victim but when people oppose your opinion you cry "derail" and ask that they leave.. awesome strategy.
Venerable elder, I am quite confused here. I was referring to Retrooper's posts that was derailing the thread - as they were almost totally impertinent to the topic itself. When my opinion was opposed by one of the well-spoken sirs on TL.net, I tried in my stupidity to respond as best I could. I don't know where you are coming from, so please forgive me. I have not much time so I'll read/respond the other posts when I get back.
On July 31 2008 04:13 himurakenshin wrote: the chinese government is bad. i don't like it. why do they have to block history from their own people? like 6-4 tianamen square. most people don't know about it. even chinese ppl in canada think it was some stupid students. they don't know it was for democracy.
I don't know where you get this information, reverend sir, but everyone that I know in China knows everything about the Tian An Men square and I feel like it's more like outsiders are more ignorant. For example, police were trying to stop the protest (without violence), until people threw rocks at them, and even one of the police officers was taken by ~10 people, had his guts gouged out, hung over a bridge and was set on fire. My dad was the chief general surgeon in one of Beijing's hospital at the time and he heard the gunshots and everything - and he had to treat many police officers and such BEFORE the shooting began. Although yes, Chinese was a but harsh and ruthless, some people don't know all the facts (you are true that most Chinese don't know all the facts either - such as the heroism of the tank man).
About the rest of your post - China has been experiencing a 15% growth rate per year (although now it's about 9%). When I came to China when I was 8 - the dollar was worth 8.25 Yuan, now the dollar is only worth 6.75 Yuan. A pretty big change imo. Secondly, the rest of your post is extremely biased, in my stupid opinion. I never referred to asian culture as korean/japan/china only - and I don't know where you get that asian culture is a knockoff of american culture? The history of China is WAYYYY longer than America - Japanese really took off the animation industry and koreans have their e-sports. America only started working on serious animation AFTER they saw what it could do by seeing Japan and still has yet to establish an e-sports community on par with Korea.
Yes, you are right about the Chinese government hiding many facts and censorship (although this happens to a smaller degree in other countries as well), but no one lives in fear here.
I just used CTRL+F and I saw that you were the first person to even use 'asian' in this thread. Forgive me for my opinion, reverend sir.
On July 31 2008 04:33 UmmTheHobo wrote: I am offended by OP. Not every american thinks china is some evil country. Now that I think about it, I don't know many people who do. The whole "free" tibet thing consists of: 2 million ignorant school girls and 2 activists that actually care. The news makes a big deal of it because it makes money. Don't be so damn racist.
Hello sir - I don't understand where you get this view either - I never mentioned americans or any other country at all. Although you guys are right - the poem is unnecessary and incites anger (which is why I'm making it note now ). Thank you for your opinion though, and if there is something I missed please point out what you were seriously offended by so I can remove it In my post I was just trying to refer to those few, radical people who take it upon themselves to inflict harm on others for their own beliefs.
@B1nary, I'm curious to when you've been to China? Are you Chinese or just like to travel? Thank you sincerely for your post in this thread. @TheTyranid - I think this is the most impartial post here - and the most sensible one at that. Thank you for your post here. @Caller and Boblion - I admit that in my life of 15 wasted years, I am, in my stupidity, not too familiar with French history (although starting AP European history next year, I've learned a little from the summer homework) and have not yet learned comprehensively the oppression in China (just know the basics, I guess), etc.
Thanks to everyone for their honest opinions here.
On July 31 2008 08:36 Caller wrote: Of course it's not. But the Chinese take it as that because I don't know about you, but I don't see any counterprotestors that aren't Chinese.
French people dont burn Chinese flags and dont demonstrate with this kind of slogan ( although i have to say it made me laught a lot ):
I just wonder China reaction if some people here demonstrate with a " Mao = gaylord " flag. I'm nearly sure that they would have asked an official apology.
On July 31 2008 08:36 Caller wrote: Did you actually pay attention to what had happened there? Did the Chinese start protesting the French first, or attack disabled people in wheelchairs?
Like if 100 activists = French people lol. You need to understand that you can demonstrate here, it isnt a dictatorship.
There were many policemen to protect the procession they did their best imo.
It isnt my fault if they have a retarded national ego thanks to propaganda.
It isn't my fault either. But what makes you think a) Western media isn't propaganda free and b) other countries don't have retarded national egos? America for sure has one.
I totally agree and i'm the first to bash national ego of any country ( mine too ofc ).
edit: my last sentence makes me look like a pretentious douche but seriously what can i answer to the "French" joke + " omfg poor Chinese were opressed 60 years ago " combo ?
mind you that's in 1937, not 1900.
2008 - 60 = 1948
i should have said 63 year ago because of Japanese occupation but it was close lol. Now listen, France was occuped by German soldiers 60 years ago too and guess what people have no problem with German people today.
On July 31 2008 05:17 Caller wrote: And as for the french comment... a) it was rude i know but b)
please learn history is akin to nuclear launch detected in terms of internet debate.
Yea my sentence was retarded but i was a bit tired yesterday. I will make a more constructive answer even if it is quite off topic. But people have to learn facts.
Demographic facts: France population in 1914: around 42 million inhabitants WW1 casualties: around 1.4 million soldiers ( all from the same gender ) + 300 000 civilians + around 4 million wounded. Germany had around 2.5 million casualties + 4 million wounded but well it had a way more important population. France birth rate was already bad compared to Germany before WW1 but after it was even worse. Dont forget the Spanish flu just after the war who killed more people than the whole WW1 ( around 400 K in France ). So France demography was completly crippled after WW1.
Military facts ( short version ): - France had not enought / planes / soldiers. France used Tanks as howitzer and support for infantry whereas Germany has Armored divisions ( ---> more mobility ----> Blitzkrieg and so on ). - France relied on Maginot line but German avoided a direct assault. - French generals were old-fashioned. - After WW1 trauma pacifism was way more important in France than among German sociopaths ----> morale was probably worse.
results: France got raped in one month. Usually French bashers dont even know the historical facts and just remember the good old equation: France got raped in one month = French are surrender monkeys.
Now lets take a look to casualties:
around 100K soldiers killed in one month. They would be happy to read that:
On July 31 2008 08:36 Caller wrote: they, unlike the French, have been unwillingly oppressed
Btw it is 1/4 of the US or UK casualties during the whole war. 100K more French soldiers died later fighting vs Allies or Axis. It is also around the same number than Poland ( populations were comparable ) so Polish people are pussies too ? Oh and dont tell me that million of Polish civilians died too because they died after the beginning of the German / Russian occupation.
If UK or US would have been neighbours with Germany in 1940 they would have been raped as hard than France because their armies were terrible in early 1940.
You posted a map of Vichy regime to mock me. But now lets look at the facts: Early june 1940 British troops fled back to their island. French government had to leave Paris for Bordeaux because of the German progression. French army suffered of heavy losses and complete disorganization. The North-East of France and Paris ( the richest and most industrious part of the country ) were lost. Petain ( an old marechal from the WW1 ) was named prime minister and he chose to negociate an armistice with Hitler and to collaborate. Maybe war should have lasted longer and with a few more kilo deads honor would have been safe. But anyway "conventional" war was already lost in metropolitan France. Some colonies joined the Allies whereas the biggest in North Africa + Indochine remained loyal to Vichy. I dont have any problem with people mocking the bad decisions made by French generals and politicians, and people denouncing the collaboration of Vichy government ( i'm one of them lol ) but your stupid and over-caricatural jokes make you look ignorant.
It is also around the same number than Poland ( populations were comparable ) so Polish people are pussies too ?
You don't want use this. Most people will undoubtedly say yes.
And yes, I understand the French military was heroic in WWI and the German's had the finest army in 1936. It was their conservative military leaders in the past 20 years that failed it more than anything else. It's like if Boxer and Yellow played eachother today. Yellow's style is still old, whereas Boxer has learned to macro.
SuperiorWolf, you need to understand that protesting is a part of French culture and history. They've done it for democracy more than any other country, sometimes with scary results.
On July 31 2008 08:36 Caller wrote: Of course it's not. But the Chinese take it as that because I don't know about you, but I don't see any counterprotestors that aren't Chinese.
French people dont burn Chinese flags and dont demonstrate with this kind of slogan ( although i have to say it made me laught a lot ):
I just wonder China reaction if some people here demonstrate with a " Mao = gaylord " flag. I'm nearly sure that they would have asked an official apology.
On July 31 2008 08:36 Caller wrote: Did you actually pay attention to what had happened there? Did the Chinese start protesting the French first, or attack disabled people in wheelchairs?
Like if 100 activists = French people lol. You need to understand that you can demonstrate here, it isnt a dictatorship. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mmff27Sn230&feature=related There were many policemen to protect the procession they did their best imo.
It isnt my fault if they have a retarded national ego thanks to propaganda.
It isn't my fault either. But what makes you think a) Western media isn't propaganda free and b) other countries don't have retarded national egos? America for sure has one.
I totally agree and i'm the first to bash national ego of any country ( mine too ofc ).
edit: my last sentence makes me look like a pretentious douche but seriously what can i answer to the "French" joke + " omfg poor Chinese were opressed 60 years ago " combo ?
mind you that's in 1937, not 1900.
2008 - 60 = 1948
i should have said 63 year ago because of Japanese occupation but it was close lol. Now listen, France was occuped by German soldiers 60 years ago too and guess what people have no problem with German people today.
On July 31 2008 05:17 Caller wrote: And as for the french comment... a) it was rude i know but b)
please learn history is akin to nuclear launch detected in terms of internet debate.
Yea my sentence was retarded but i was a bit tired yesterday. I will make a more constructive answer even if it is quite off topic. But people have to learn facts.
Demographic facts: France population in 1914: around 42 million inhabitants WW1 casualties: around 1.4 million soldiers ( all from the same gender ) + 300 000 civilians + around 4 million wounded. Germany had around 2.5 million casualties + 4 million wounded but well it had a way more important population. France birth rate was already bad compared to Germany before WW1 but after it was even worse. Dont forget the Spanish flu just after the war who killed more people than the whole WW1 ( around 400 K in France ). So France demography was completly crippled after WW1.
Military facts ( short version ): - France had not enought / planes / soldiers. France used Tanks as howitzer and support for infantry whereas Germany has Armored divisions ( ---> more mobility ----> Blitzkrieg and so on ). - France relied on Maginot line but German avoided a direct assault. - French generals were old-fashioned. - After WW1 trauma pacifism was way more important in France than among German sociopaths ----> morale was probably worse.
results: France got raped in one month. Usually French bashers dont even know the historical facts and just remember the good old equation: France got raped in one month = French are surrender monkeys.
Now lets take a look to casualties:
around 100K soldiers killed in one month. They would be happy to read that:
On July 31 2008 08:36 Caller wrote: they, unlike the French, have been unwillingly oppressed
Btw it is 1/4 of the US or UK casualties during the whole war. 100K more French soldiers died later fighting vs Allies or Axis. It is also around the same number than Poland ( populations were comparable ) so Polish people are pussies too ? Oh and dont tell me that million of Polish civilians died too because they died after the beginning of the German / Russian occupation.
If UK or US would have been neighbours with Germany in 1940 they would have been raped as hard than France because their armies were terrible in early 1940.
You posted a map of Vichy regime to mock me. But now lets look at the facts: Early june 1940 British troops fled back to their island. French government had to leave Paris for Bordeaux because of the German progression. French army suffered of heavy losses and complete disorganization. The North-East of France and Paris ( the richest and most industrious part of the country ) were lost. Petain ( an old marechal from the WW1 ) was named prime minister and he chose to negociate an armistice with Hitler and to collaborate. Maybe war should have lasted longer and with a few more kilo deads honor would have been safe. But anyway "conventional" war was already lost in metropolitan France. Some colonies joined the Allies whereas the biggest in North Africa + Indochine remained loyal to Vichy. I dont have any problem with people mocking the bad decisions made by French generals and politicians, and people denouncing the collaboration of Vichy government ( i'm one of them lol ) but your stupid and over-caricatural jokes make you look ignorant.
I apologize for the inflammatory pictures but I was in a bit of a sour mood at the time.
Let me bring up one example: The French-Italian Alps. There were two corps there that had just repelled a massive Italian attack for about 10 casualties. They easily could have held out for a long time. Militarily, it was a poor decision to give in like that, seeing just what would happen once Germany took over. The Maginot line, despite its tactical uselessness, was also able to hold out until the Vichy government gave in. That was at least 300,000 crack troops, untried by war, whereas the German troops, despite their high morale, were running low on supplies due to their fast advance and would be no longer facing half-strength or weak units. Had the French kept fighting, it is likely that the war would have been over sooner.
I'm not defending Chinese actions and especially not the Chinese government. But I don't think that some nationalist fever as a result of a seeming "wave" of people bashing China is really that unwarranted.
On July 31 2008 23:26 Caller wrote: Let me bring up one example: The French-Italian Alps. There were two corps there that had just repelled a massive Italian attack for about 10 casualties. They easily could have held out for a long time.
I think that Italian army was worse than French army and it is why the assault failed ( also it happened in a montainous region and the defensors have always the edge in this kind of situation ). Mussolini declared the war to France because he thought it would be an easy win and he wanted to conquer the South-East of France but he overated his army.
On July 31 2008 23:26 Caller wrote: Militarily, it was a poor decision to give in like that, seeing just what would happen once Germany took over.
In 1940 people didnt know that Nazis were that crazy. Anyway the best divisions ( with tanks ) and most of the French army were lost after being surrounded by German forces in the North of France. Most of the French and British air forces were destroyed and the German had conquered the capital and all the richest regions ( where planes and tanks were produced ) the rest of French army was disbanded and fled towards the South with millions of civilians while planes were bombing them. Morale was probably close to the absolute zero, logistical support was destroyed.
On July 31 2008 23:26 Caller wrote: The Maginot line, despite its tactical uselessness, was also able to hold out until the Vichy government gave in. That was at least 300,000 crack troops, untried by war, whereas the German troops, despite their high morale, were running low on supplies due to their fast advance and would be no longer facing half-strength or weak units. Had the French kept fighting, it is likely that the war would have been over sooner.
Some Maginot fortifications surrended one month after the armistice, but anyway they were doomed when the German had surrounded them.
The best solution would have been to not negociate an armistice, to send a maximum of soldiers ( those remaining in France would had to surrender because they were doomed ) + the somewhat large battle fleet to Algerie and to keep fighting from the colonies but it would have been really hard to move the whole remaning army to North Africa. But it happened somewhat because some colonies joined the Allies.
On July 31 2008 23:26 Caller wrote: I'm not defending Chinese actions and especially not the Chinese government. But I don't think that some nationalist fever as a result of a seeming "wave" of people bashing China is really that unwarranted.
I think we can agree and say that the average pro-Tibet activist is as toolish than the average Chinese nationalist .
EPT
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). Thank you for your opinion though, and if there is something I missed please point out what you were seriously offended by so I can remove it ![[image loading]](http://pix.nofrag.com/2/7/c/4d8114b9f5f66231c7cd0d3efcb6f.jpg)
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