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Between 2009 and 2011, Shinhan ProLeague held a unique platform for the players, where the winner-stays-on format was implemented.
It was called the Winner's League, and you cannot mention the Winner's League without mentioning this particular concept: the coveted all-kill.
An all-kill involved one player defeating all four members of the opposing team in a row. There was no better way to humiliate a team than to act on these very words with an all-kill performance:
"I don't care who which players your team has. You can send literally anybody to try to stop me, but it will be an act of futility."
Of course, the smart method was to thin the crop somewhat by sending the appropriate pawns to potentially eliminate threatening players from the enemy team. However, the Winner's League certainly had windows of opportunity for players to become the heroes seen in folklore, and single handily wipe-out the entire enemy roster without the fear of being sniped himself.
This blog will recall upon such memories with fondness, and I will categorize the successful, and not-so-successful all-kill attempts by some of the greatest Winner's League players of all-time.
With all four members of the enemy team fully intact, these are the following scenarios that could happen to the brave player attempting an all-kill:
1) Completes the all-kill with a record of 4:0
2) Fails an all-kill with a record of 3:1
3) Fails an all-kill with a record of 2:1
4) Fails an all-kill with a record of 1:1
5) Fails an all-kill with a record of 0:1
I will see how successful various players were in their all-kill attempts, and of course, if any teammates were successful in eliminating some members from the opposing team prior to the appearance of the player in question, any follow-up performances will not be discussed, since this topic focuses entirely on all-kills, and attempts to complete an all-kill.
Players who denied potential all-kills, or were efficient closers after the pawns have done their jobs are not going to be discussed here.
The following players had three or more successful all-kill attempts during their careers, and I will rank these five players by their overall success rate in their attempts to complete an all-kill under circumstances where an all-kill was possible:
Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Light, and Stats
Without further ado, here are the above five players ranked by their all-kill success rate:
1. Jaedong
![[image loading]](http://contents.dt.co.kr/images/201003/2010031702019971733005.jpg)
Total number of all-kill attempts: 13
Total number of successful all-kills: 5 (38.46%)
Number of failed attempts after 3 kills: 4
Number of failed attempts after 2 kills: 0
Number of failed attempts after 1 kill: 3
Number of failed attempts after 0 kills: 1
In 69% of the cases where Jaedong appeared in a Winner's League match with the intentions of all-killing the enemy team, Jaedong managed a minimum of three kills. This is why Jaedong was known as the all-kill king of Winner's League.
2. Bisu
![[image loading]](http://imgnews.naver.com/image/dailyesports/2011/01/22/20110122_f81b1704182729973d240bc3e7f814f1.jpg)
Total number of all-kill attempts: 17
Total number of successful all-kills: 5 (29.41%)
Number of failed attempts after 3 kills: 1
Number of failed attempts after 2 kills: 4
Number of failed attempts after 1 kill: 2
Number of failed attempts after 0 kills: 5
Bisu is tied with Jaedong for the most number of completed all-kills, but needed more attempts to do so. Bisu only managed to secure three kills or more, when he actively sought out an all-kill, only 35% of the time, and actually had multiple botched up attempts where he ended up with zero victories to his name.
3. Flash
![[image loading]](http://image.chosun.com/sitedata/image/201002/20/2010022000423_0.jpg)
Total number of all-kill attempts: 12
Total number of successful all-kills: 3 (25.00%)
Number of failed attempts after 3 kills: 2
Number of failed attempts after 2 kills: 2
Number of failed attempts after 1 kill: 3
Number of failed attempts after 0 kills: 2
In contrast to Jaedong, Flash tended to be more successful as a closer rather than an actual all-kill threat, and was not that successful when he actively attempted an all-kill, securing three or more victories only 42% of the time.
4. Light
![[image loading]](http://image.chosun.com/sitedata/image/201002/06/2010020600475_0.jpg)
Total number of all-kill attempts: 17
Total number of successful all-kills: 4 (23.53%)
Number of failed attempts after 3 kills: 1
Number of failed attempts after 2 kills: 5
Number of failed attempts after 1 kill: 5
Number of failed attempts after 0 kills: 2
Light was a terrific Winner's League player, and is the terran player with the most number of all-kills, but he actually had many more opportunities to complete an all-kill compared to Flash. His ability to secure three kills or more was pretty mediocre with a success rate of 24%.
Stats
![[image loading]](http://sccdn.chosun.com/news/html/2011/03/16/2011031600000000000101631.jpg)
Total number of all-kill attempts: 13
Total number of successful all-kills: 3 (23.08%)
Number of failed attempts after 3 kills: 1
Number of failed attempts after 2 kills: 1
Number of failed attempts after 1 kill: 3
Number of failed attempts after 0 kills: 5
As a trusty side-kick to Flash, Stats is one of five players to complete the coveted all-kill three or more times. However, it is noteworthy that the number of totally botched all-kill attempts (where Stats ended up with 0 kills) happened far more for Stats than any other player on the list.
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For those looking for entertainment from Shady Sands, the poster known for his vigour and the flight of ideas he has with obliquely related subjects, here is what might have happened if I didn't ban him:
"LOL another blog created to besmirch the greatness of God. This is obviously false propaganda created from false databases, and obviously I won't check the TLPD for its accuracy because I'm such a busy, busy man.
Don't you know Flash got KeSPA player of the year award in 2010? Also, this all-kill list is conveniently glossing over Flash's domination over Jaedong, and how he defeated him in the finals of Hana Daetoo MSL. Why don't you spend more time discussing the finals of Hana Daetoo MSL?
I don't care whether this blog is about all-kills, obviously Flash is the greatest of all-time, and any discussion involving subjects outside of that topic needs to be shut down, and Letmelose has obvious mental health issues because he has lists that has Jaedong placed higher than Flash, and although I cannot I personally cannot refute the topic with facts, I know it is wrong somehow, plus I bet he has TLPD scraper bots.
Obviously, any sane person would agree that Flash being ranked higher by KeSPA during March 2010 proves that Jaedong having a higher all-kill attempt success rate than Flash is wrong, or at least proves that he is gathering the wrong data, because obviously all blogs requires Flash being at the top of any list.
Most attractive Brood War player? Flash number one. Brood War players that I would like to insert myself into? Flash number one. Funniest Brood War personality? Flash number one. Players that make me swoon? Flash number one. Just have Flash number one for everything."
I wanted to spare myself the time of trying to understand the points he is trying to make other than he is upset with me, so I hope the above homage would be enough, even though I don't think I can ever fully mimic the hilarious range of his idiosyncrasies.
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United States1434 Posts
Were any of the opponents these guys all killed, namely not Flash, happen to be matchfixers? I think if we adjust the numbers enough, you can clearly see Flash gets to number 1.
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On May 03 2018 16:46 Ty2 wrote:
Were any of the opponents these guys all killed, namely not Flash, happen to be matchfixers? I think if we adjust the numbers enough, you can clearly see Flash gets to number 1.
But of course, I must redeem my honour by eliminating all data from games that match-fixer, YellOw[ArnC], ever played, who literally threw every professional match in his career (because what those pesky verdicts from the court of law said were all lies, and he didn't throw only one match during his career), and only eliminated Flash from Clubday MSL and Bacchus 2009 OGN StarLeague because Flash had too much honour to lose to such a disgraceful match-fixer. Flash obviously decided to deny him money by eliminating himself from the tournament.
Yes, it does all add up together. What am I doing with my life posting statistics when I could be devoting myself to celebrate Flash and his untouchable greatness, and how he meta-gamed a match-fixer by eliminating himself from the tournament multiple times just to deny YellOw[ArnC] that sweet match-fixing money.
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Another thing is that if you count Flash's all-kill against SKT as 4 all-kills, you can clearly see Flash gets to number 1.
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On May 03 2018 22:43 Djabanete wrote:
Another thing is that if you count Flash's all-kill against SKT as 4 all-kills, you can clearly see Flash gets to number 1.
One thing that I enjoyed about Shady Sands singling out that particular performance from Flash as if it was a divine intervention from god himself, is that it was done in the season where SK Telecom T1 performed the worst (finished 8th overall) out of the three available seasons of the Winner's League, in large part to their ProLeague ace Bisu having the single worst Winner's League season of his career (he ended up with a Winner's League record of 3-6 that particular season).
In fact, during Shinhan 2010 Winner's League (the season where Flash all-killed SK Telecom T1), Light was able to all-kill SK Telecom T1 that season too, and Hwaseung Oz defeated SK Telecom T1 without even having to use Jaedong (the combined forces of HiyA and Killer was enough). I mean, an all-kill is impressive no matter what the circumstances happened to be, but it wasn't even the most impressive all-kill performance against SK Telecom T1 in the short history of the Winner's League from an objective perspective (although Flash is a sexier protagonist than Stats for sure, from a narrative perspective).
The most impressive all-kill against SK Telecom T1 happened in Shinhan 2011 Winner's League (the season where SK Telecom T1 ended up winning in the finals), by Stats, who actually all-killed SK Telecom T1 when they were actually a play-offs material team within the Winner's League.
Considering there has been zero players who managed to all-kill a team that reached the play-off stages multiple times, I'll just expand the criteria to players who all-killed a team that finished in the top half of the table for that particular season of the Winner's League (regular ProLeague standings are ignored, since ProLeague strength and Winner's League strength are entirely different):
Jaedong: 3 times
1) All-kill versus KTF MagicNs in Shinhan 2009 Winner's League (3rd out of 12 teams)
2) All-kill versus HITE Sparkyz in Shinhan 2010 Winner's League (6th out of 12 teams)
3) All-kill versus Samsung Khan in Shinhan 2011 Winner's League (5th out of 10 teams)
Bisu: 0 times
Flash: 1 time
1) All-kill versus Hwaseung Oz in Shinhan 2009 Winner's League (2nd out of 12 teams)
Light: 0 times
Stats: 1 time
1) All-kill versus SK Telecom T1 in Shinhan 2011 Winner's League (1st out of 10 teams)
Unless we are going off by narratives based on name-value, there really isn't an argument to be made for a player who actually completed all-kills better than Jaedong between 2009 and 2011. Boasting about defeating SK Telecom T1 (a team that heavily relied on Bisu for the Winner's League), during Shinhan 2010 Winner's League is like boasting about being a better ProLeague player than Bisu in 2007. Sure cHalRengE did better, but does that make him a world-beater, or just another protoss who outpeformed Bisu when he was a non-factor within the ProLeague?
There is no other player who managed to all-kill teams that finished within the top five for the matcing Winner's League season more than once apart from Jaedong. Of course, Winner's League is more than one player trying to become the hero and all-killing the entire enemy roster, there's an art to designing the entries just right, and for each player to do their expected roles, and players such as Flash were incredible in terms of closing out the series once his pawns such as Stats removed a couple of threats from the enemy team, but in terms of actually attempting the impossible, and succeeding at all-killing the enemy team with nothing but sheer belief in himself, there was no better player than Jaedong according to the statistics.
But of course, if I didn't ban him, I think all of this information would just fly over Shady Sand's head, and he'll go back to mentioning why Flash defeating Jaedong in the finals of Hana Daetoo MSL is a much more relevant point to make when discussing all-kill mastery. Or why discussing all-kill mastery is something that should be banished from all future discussion involving Brood War, just in case somebody thinks lesser of Flash for it.
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There were also players who were on fine form in individual leagues who struggled with all-kills relatively speaking.
2009/01/17 ~ 2011/04/09
The above time-frame is the first match day for Shinhan 2009 Winner's League, and ends at the last ever match day for Shinhan 2011 Winner's League.
FanTaSy's top four placements in individual leagues that happened within the above mentioned time-frame:
Total number of times FanTaSy won a major championship within the mentioned time-frame: 1
Total number of times FanTaSy reached the finals within the mentioned time-frame: 2
Total number of times FanTaSy reached the top four within the mentioned time-frame: 4
FanTaSy was the third best individual league star after Flash and Jaedong during this time-frame (by some distance I might add), yet here is his every single one of his all-kill attempts:
Total number of all-kill attempts: 23
Total number of successful all-kills: 2 (8.70%)
Number of failed attempts after 3 kills: 3
Number of failed attempts after 2 kills: 5
Number of failed attempts after 1 kill: 4
Number of failed attempts after 0 kills: 9
While FanTaSy is one of the very few terran players to have two or more successful all-kill attempts, he actually had more opportunities to complete an all-kill than any other player discussed on the list thus far, partly due to SK Telecom T1's policies to save Bisu for later use.
FanTaSy actually totally botched up potential all-kill attempts with a 0-1 record an astonshing nine times during his professional career, and has less completed all-kills than any of the five player discussed in this blog despite having nearly twice as much opportunities to do so in some of the more extreme cases.
His teammate Bisu, who was suffering from a severe individual league drought during the same time-frame (only one top four finish to his name during this period, and even there he suffered a 0-3 shut-out loss), was able to churn out all-kills much more successfully than his teammate. Perhaps Bisu during this phase of his career flourished when there was less time to prepare in general.
FanTaSy only became a force to do reckoned with in both the ProLeague and the individual leagues towards the very end of professional Brood War, when the Winner's League had already been discarded as a ProLeague format. His need for thorough preparation may be one of the main reasons for this phenomenon.
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Like Ty2, I'm only kidding. I remember fondly the day when MustacheZerg, PirateZerg, and OzSucksBallsWithoutMe joined the Oz ranks when Jaedong handed the team a Winner's League championship on a silver platter (after all-killing KTF in the previous match) and they fumbled the platter... it was also the day with the dual mutalisk control groups versus Iris. It was a great accomplishment for Jaedong even though it didn't turn out well for Oz.
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I'm not arguing that Flash is the best or anything, but I do remember that KTF usually sent him out last or second to last (to reduce the possibility of getting sniped?), so that would mean he had to face a lot of pressure (if his team was already down 0:3) or his team already had a win or two (so maybe he had fewer chances to get all-kills).
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On May 04 2018 17:06 29 fps wrote:
I'm not arguing that Flash is the best or anything, but I do remember that KTF usually sent him out last or second to last (to reduce the possibility of getting sniped?), so that would mean he had to face a lot of pressure (if his team was already down 0:3) or his team already had a win or two (so maybe he had fewer chances to get all-kills).
Saving the ace player for last was a strategy that was deployed a lot of the teams. For example, HiyA, the second in command player for Hwaseung Oz, had a lot more all-kill opportunities than Jaedong did:
HiyA
Total number of all-kill attempts: 21
Total number of successful all-kills: 2 (9.52%)
Number of failed attempts after 3 kills: 4
Number of failed attempts after 2 kills: 8
Number of failed attempts after 1 kill: 1
Number of failed attempts after 0 kills: 8
Hwaseung Oz frequently saved Jaedong for last while HiyA did the dirty work, KT Rolster frequently saved Flash for last while Stats did the dirty work (he had more all-kill opportunities than Flash did despite playing in only two out of the three Winner's League seasons), and SK Telecom T1 frequently saved Bisu for last while FanTaSy did the dirty work.
Flash being saved up while his pawns did the dirty work was not a situation that was unique to him and him only. The fact that Jaedong and Flash had similar number of opportunities to complete an all-kill (13 opportunities versus 12) during their professional careers is a testament to that statement.
The disconnect you are seeing probably stems from the fact that Flash was a much superior closer in general compared to Jaedong, and as a result of that ability, had an overall superior Winner's League record. This is not a blog about overall Winner's League records, but rather a player's ability to all-kill, and in that specific regard, Flash couldn't touch Jaedong, just like Jaedong couldn't touch Flash's ability to close a series out after his pawns did work.
During the rare occasions where Flash attempted an all-kill without sending his pawns first, he never completed an all-kill. It is likely that Flash's failed attempts don't quite stick to mind for most people. During the occasions where Jaedong attempted an all-kill without sending his pawns first, he completed it on three separate occasions. It may seem like Jaedong was doing this all the time, but in reality, Hwaseung Oz gave more all-kill opportunities to send HiyA first of all.
Although it wasn't always the case, it was HiyA doing most of the dirty work, just like Stats was playing the part for KT Rolster. Their overall number of all-kill opportunities would differ by more if Jaedong had much more chances for an all-kill due to Hwaseung Oz's policies.
This is a baseball analogy I'd like to make although I have almost zero knowledge of the game. Jaedong would be the greatest home-run hitter of all-time. Flash would be the greatest overall hitter of all-time. I'm not denying Flash the title of the greatest Winner's League player, but it is quite obvious to me that Jaedong was the superior all-kill player, even if narratives thus far told a different tale.
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However, with all that being said, it is true that more of Flash's all-kill opportunities basically needed him to reverse sweep the opposing team. Flash just didn't function all that well as a front-runner, but he was indeed an awesome closer, and a great reverse-sweeper.
Flash had the same overall number of opportunities for an all-kill as Jaedong, but only all-killed under the following scenarios:
1) Completed one all-kill after two of his teammates were defeated.
2) Completed two reverse all-kills after three of his teammates were defeated.
Flash went out under scenarios where he was the front-runner, or appearing when only one of his teamates had been defeated, but in all those occasions, Flash failed to complete an all-kill.
Jaedong all-killed under the following scenarios:
1) Completed three all-kills after being the front-runner for his team.
2) Completed one all-kill after two of his teammates were defeated.
2) Completed one reverse all-kills after three of his teammates were defeated.
Jaedong never completed an all-kill after appearing after only one of his teammates had been defeated. In all three other possible scenarios, Jaedong managed to complete an all-kill.
Given that both players had similar number of all-kill opportunities, it seems like Jaedong was able to complete all-kills with more versatility, although Flash had one more occasion of completing a reverse all-kill. However, in terms of just completing an all-kill with the given opportunity, Jaedong was much more lethal of the two players.
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Since the topic of reverse all-kills came up (completing an all-kill with three teammates already down without having won a single match), I'll pay homage to the four players who succeeded in completing a reverse all-kill, and how often they rose up to the challenge when given the opportunity to complete a reverse all-kill. All other forms of all-kills will not be discussed.
Players who managed to complete a reverse all-kill (in order of who did it first): Jaedong, sKyHigh, Flash, and Stork
I'll rank the above four players by the success rate of completing a reverse all-kill given the opportunity to do so. In case of a tie, I will break the tie breaker by who had a higher success rate of completing three kills or more given the reverse all-kill ability. If there is still a tie after that, who ever totally botched up the reverse all-kill attempt with zero kills will be ranked lower:
1. Jaedong
Total number of reverse all-kill attempts: 3
Total number of successful reverse all-kills: 1 (33.33%)
Number of failed attempts after 3 kills: 1 (66.67% success rate of completing 3 kills or more)
Number of failed attempts after 2 kills: 0
Number of failed attempts after 1 kill: 1
Number of failed attempts after 0 kills: 0
2. Flash
Total number of reverse all-kill attempts: 6
Total number of successful reverse all-kills: 2 (33.33%)
Number of failed attempts after 3 kills: 1 (50.00% success rate of completing 3 kills or more)
Number of failed attempts after 2 kills: 1
Number of failed attempts after 1 kill: 1
Number of failed attempts after 0 kills: 1
3. Stork
Total number of reverse all-kill attempts: 3
Total number of successful reverse all-kills: 1 (33.33%)
Number of failed attempts after 3 kills: 0 (33.33% success rate of completing 3 kills or more)
Number of failed attempts after 2 kills: 1
Number of failed attempts after 1 kill: 1
Number of failed attempts after 0 kills: 0
4. sKyHigh
Total number of reverse all-kill attempts: 3
Total number of successful reverse all-kills: 1 (33.33%)
Number of failed attempts after 3 kills: 0 (33.33% success rate of completing 3 kills or more)
Number of failed attempts after 2 kills: 0
Number of failed attempts after 1 kill: 1
Number of failed attempts after 0 kills: 1 (more totally botched up reverse all-kill attempts than Stork)
Flash did have more reverse all-kills than Jaedong, but he also had more botched up reverse all-kill attempts (reverse all-kill attempts that ended up with less than three kills) than Jaedong. Plus Jaedong was far superior at completing all-kills under circumstances other than of a potential reverse all-kill.
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After some closer inspection, it seems like certain players had preferences for different types of all-kills:
Jaedong: completed three all-kills where he had all four teammates left alive
Bisu: completed three all-kills where he had three teammates left alive
Nobody completes multiple all-kills where he had two teammates left alive
Flash: completed two all-kills where he had zero teammates left alive
Bisu interestingly had three all-kill performances after the first SK Telecom T1 player had failed, and he had to play the role of the second SK Telecom T1 player to try an complete an all-kill if all went as planned. Strangely enough, both Jaedong and Flash never managed to complete an all-kill when facing this particular situation.
This is the break-down of the scenarios Bisu completed his all-kills:
1) Completed one all-kill after being the front-runner for his team.
2) Completed three all-kills after one of his teammates was defeated.
3) Completed one all-kill after two of his teammates were defeated.
Bisu also had good versatility in terms of completing all-kills, but never managed a reverse all-kill during his career. Further more, he had more overall number of opportunities to complete an all-kill (17) compared to both Jaedong (13) and Flash (12).
If I have the time, I may also try to break-down the all-kill attempts and success rate of players who managed two all-kills, which consisted of mostly terran players such as Leta, By.Sun, and FanTaSy (already wrote his tendencies in one of the posts).
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On May 03 2018 15:42 Letmelose wrote:For those looking for entertainment from Shady Sands, the poster known for his vigour and the flight of ideas he has with obliquely related subjects, here is what might have happened if I didn't ban him: "LOL another blog created to besmirch the greatness of God. This is obviously false propaganda created from false databases, and obviously I won't check the TLPD for its accuracy because I'm such a busy, busy man. + Show Spoiler +Don't you know Flash got KeSPA player of the year award in 2010? Also, this all-kill list is conveniently glossing over Flash's domination over Jaedong, and how he defeated him in the finals of Hana Daetoo MSL. Why don't you spend more time discussing the finals of Hana Daetoo MSL?
I don't care whether this blog is about all-kills, obviously Flash is the greatest of all-time, and any discussion involving subjects outside of that topic needs to be shut down, and Letmelose has obvious mental health issues because he has lists that has Jaedong placed higher than Flash, and although I cannot I personally cannot refute the topic with facts, I know it is wrong somehow, plus I bet he has TLPD scraper bots.
Obviously, any sane person would agree that Flash being ranked higher by KeSPA during March 2010 proves that Jaedong having a higher all-kill attempt success rate than Flash is wrong, or at least proves that he is gathering the wrong data, because obviously all blogs requires Flash being at the top of any list.
Most attractive Brood War player? Flash number one. Brood War players that I would like to insert myself into? Flash number one. Funniest Brood War personality? Flash number one. Players that make me swoon? Flash number one. Just have Flash number one for everything."
I wanted to spare myself the time of trying to understand the points he is trying to make other than he is upset with me, so I hope the above homage would be enough, even though I don't think I can ever fully mimic the hilarious range of his idiosyncrasies.
omg i am ded xDDD
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honestly, i think you should unban him and just never respond to anything he says. sorry. i don't know why i want this to escalate. i really am not that kind of person. i just love brood war and all great forms of competition and i love the reflection on what is 'hall of fame' and what is 'hall of fame trajectory' in other *sports." i feel like big feuds among journalists is something that drives sports so i think you should unban him be cause you two feuding only creates more questions, even if they are stupid ones. and you always put in the time to correct him to really he is just helping you broaden the topic.
that shit about how you don't own the thread so you can't guide the conversation will be something i
think about laugh at for time to come
<3
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All this fancy schmancy, meticulously researched and well-presented statistical data fails to account for the fact that Flash's all-kill games were clearly of massively higher quality than those of all the other players who achieved all-kills. It should be super obvious to even the most casual observer that Jaedong and Bisu's opponents in the Winner's League capitulated against them all too easily, because they spent all their practice time preparing for Flash.
These stats also elude the fact that Flash in his everlasting grace was benevolent enough to give mortals like Stats the chance to achieve great merits themselves, rather than simply sit back and bask in the God of Broodwar's reflected glory. And statistics are damned lies anyway. Therefore Flash is still number 1 by every metric in every category (including best hair, despite what the delusional Bisu fanboys might say).
+ Show Spoiler +Kidding of course. Letmelose's insightful analysis is highly commendable as always.
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Interesting stats and great bonus homage.
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I'm glad that skyhigh got a mention somewhere in this thread. Out of all the all-kills, his was probably the most memorable to me. A man possessed by the StarCraft gods for just one night.
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What about number of times a team was all killed?
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EPT
