• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:20
CEST 22:20
KST 05:20
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Ro4 Recap : The Peak11DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Info & Preview19herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2025)17Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, GuMiho, Classic, Cure6Code S RO8 Preview: Classic, Reynor, Maru, GuMiho4
Community News
[BSL20] RO20 Group Stage0EWC 2025 Regional Qualifiers (May 28-June 1)7Weekly Cups (May 12-18): Clem sweeps WardiTV May3Code S Season 2 (2025) - Qualifier Results212025 GSL Season 2 (Qualifiers)14
StarCraft 2
General
herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2025) DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Info & Preview Power Rank: October 2018 Code S Season 2 (2025) - Qualifier Results Code S RO8 Preview: Classic, Reynor, Maru, GuMiho
Tourneys
DreamHack Dallas 2025 Last Chance Qualifiers for OlimoLeague 2024 Winter $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) EWC 2025 Regional Qualifiers (May 28-June 1)
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance Mutation # 473 Cold is the Void Mutation # 472 Dead Heat Mutation # 471 Delivery Guaranteed
Brood War
General
[ASL19] Ro4 Recap : The Peak BW General Discussion Cwal.gg not working BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Artosis baned on twitch ?
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL19] Semifinal B [BSL20] RO20 Group Stage Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Grand Theft Auto VI Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Plays: Diplomacy TL Mafia: Generative Agents Showdown Survivor II: The Amazon
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL.net Ten Commandments
Blogs
Yes Sir! How Commanding Impr…
TrAiDoS
Poker
Nebuchad
Info SLEgma_12
SLEgma_12
SECOND COMMING
XenOsky
WombaT’s Old BW Terran Theme …
WombaT
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 14745 users

The Greatest ProLeague Players of Each Generation - Page 2

Blogs > Letmelose
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 All
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-02-04 00:17:42
January 31 2018 02:56 GMT
#21
If the overall progression of the game results in rookies taking longer to win their first championship, it is kind of odd that people like Bisu and Jaedong took the least amount of time to gain their first ever major championship after trying their luck in the offline preliminaries for the first time out of all the players of their race except for the players who were competing around 1999 (when the concept of a professional debut becomes very blurred). Surely the game was more advanced, and more difficult to master for those two players, yet they required to least amount of developmental period as professionals.

Overall number of days it took for a zerg prodigy/all-timer to win a major championship after taking part in their first ever offline preliminaries:

July: 677 days
sAviOr: 752 days
Jaedong: 636 days

Overall number of days it took a protoss prodigy/all-timer to win a major championship after taking part in their first ever offline preliminaries:

Reach: 495 days
Nal_rA: 491 days
Bisu: 464 days

Overall number of days it took for a terran prodigy/all-timer to win a major championship after taking part in their first ever offline preliminaries:

NaDa: 383 days
iloveoov: 288 days
Flash: 367 days

As you can see, regardless of their era, almost all prodigies/all-time talent have extremely similar time-frame needed to blossom into a championship material player. It differs from race to race (with terran players needing the least amount of time, to zerg players needing more time for growth in general), but the thing that remains constant is that all-time level talent for each of the races mirror one another extremely well in terms of initial growth patterns, and it is more of a racial disparity that categorizes these players, rather than their year of debut.

The pattern breaks after the Taek-Beng-LeeSsang era. Yet the accumulation of knowledge wasn't much of a hinderance for Taek-Beng-LeeSsang when they made their impressions on the big stage as rookies. Either these players are the biggest outliers who required similar or less experience as professionals to succeed despite needing much more time to master the game in theory, or they simply followed the expected timeline for an all-time great as seen by previous generations of all-time greats. I tend to believe in the latter.

The moment after the first draft of 2007 ends, it becomes quite hard to find players who would break into the round of 16 (nevermind winning the championship) given the same number of days it took for players to win the championship after making their professional debut. Before early 2007, it really didn't take that long for the next wave of superstars to come along. From late 2007 to 2012, there's almost a five year drought in terms of superlative levels of prodigies, and considering how periodic the turnover rate of bonjwas used to be, and how short it took for these kind of players to come along for such a long time, it is really odd to explain it purely from a game advancement perspective.

To discover an all-time level geniuses at the game, I personally believe there is a minimal talent pool required, unless you are looking for extreme outliers. There used to be so many gaming geniuses at the game, and I believe 2007 marks the end of that rapid turn-over rate of geniuses, and the start of a more incestuous era where the talent who made their debut around early 2007 or even years before that (Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Stork, and FanTaSy) battled it out amongst themselves, instead of battling out between themselves as well as future generations of unspeakable Brood War geniuses (as was the case before).

Competitive Brood War as of today has seen more development purely within the game itself, as could be expected of any craft that has been worked on for nearly two decades. However, the incestuous nature of the competition is more pronounced than ever before, and the turn-over rate for the very top end of the players is basically slowed down to a snail's pace. I wanted to pin point the era where that trend started, and I think there is a strong case that such a trend started right after the likes of Flash, FanTaSy, and EffOrt made their debuts.
TL+ Member
Lorch
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany3673 Posts
February 03 2018 15:26 GMT
#22
Good job disproving my point. I certainly do agree with what you have to say, great job looking up all those statistics! I really love your blog posts, please keep'em coming!

Though there is something that I am quiet unsure about: From what I believe to know, 2007 is also a bit of a turning point in Brood War. You still have old legends like oov, savior and nada competing, but it's when TBLS were on the rise and took over as the top players of the game. From what I understand, a lot of older players fell off, because they struggled to adapt to the ever changing meta game. Part of what makes Nada and July impressive is that they were able to keep up with the meta for so long. Whether it's the meta or fatigue, it is a fact that pros tend to fall off sooner or later.
However, I'd argue that those who rose to the top in 07 continued to be on top till the end. Jaedong had a fantastic 2010, and I'd argue that Oz being disbanded was the major reason behind his slump at the very end of professional brood war. Flash was still a god at the very end, being a monster in PL and reaching the round of 4 of the final OSL. Bisu inspite of slacking in individual leagues ever since his transfer to SKT, was still the ace player in the final Proleague game of all time. Fantasy made it to what, the last 3 OSL finals? Jangbi, the final OSL champion, also started of in 06 and did have some initial success as one of the dragons. I guess stork is a bit of an enigma, but he still had an impressive ~70% winrate in the final proleague season. What I'm trying to say is this: What if the 06/07 generation of rookies was simply better at keeping up with the meta and staying on top? So while in 07, these guys could take down some washed out pro to reach the ro8 of the OSL, maybe there weren't as many washed out pros during the very end of Brood War for rookies to take down.

So how do you feel about that sort of argument? I mean I guess all of that could also be attributed to the quality of rookies going down, making it harder for the established pros to get upset.
Letmelose
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Korea (South)3227 Posts
February 04 2018 10:41 GMT
#23
It certainly is a possibility, but here's another way to look at it.

Just from the major championships of the two most famous Brood War television broadcasting companies (Ongamenet and MBC Game), here are the years listed with the first semi-final appearance of a player who managed to reach multiple semi-finals.

Since there has never been a league where all four members of Taek-Beng-LeeSsang made the semi-finals simultaneously, the ability to reach multiple semi-finals would surely be within the reach of an all-time level new talent even if Taek-Beng-LeeSsang somehow had a miraculous ability to stay on top regardless of which talent was being added to the mix.

Each year of professional Brood War and the first ever semi-final appearance of a multiple semi-finalist

2000: GARIMTO, Grrrr..., H.O.T-Forever, ChRh (4)
2001: BoxeR, Kingdom, YellOw, JinNam, TheMarine (5)
2002: NaDa, Reach, ChoJJa (3)
2003: iloveoov, Nal_rA. XellOs, GoodFriend, ZeuS, Junwi (6)
2004: July, JJu, Silent_Control (3)
2005: sAviOr, Anytime, GoRush, PuSan (4)
2006: Casy, Midas (2)
2007: Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Stork, GGPlay, Mind, Iris (7)
2008: FanTaSy, JangBi, Luxury, Kal, free, BeSt (6)
2009: Calm, ZerO, Kwanro (3)
2010:
2011: Hydra (1)
2012:

From 2010 onward, there's basically zero new talent (excluding Hydra), and that's because people who made their debuts alongside Taek-Beng-LeeSsang such as FanTaSy (2007), JangBi (2006), Calm (2005), and Luxury (2005) were late bloomers, rather than being superlative new talents who were ready to overthrow the existing order.

In fact, out of five years' worth of drafting (late 2007 to early 2012), we saw the rise of one multiple semi-finalist.

That basically means that after the natural rise and fall of various legends, the scene was stuck in a rut of incestuous competition starting from 2010, when literally every single finalist aside from Hydra was a product of the talent pool created before early 2007.

Imagine if after NaDa overthrew BoxeR as the greatest player in the scene circa 2002, he would go on to compete versus only his predecessors and peers such as GARIMTO, ChoJJa, TheMarine, and YellOw for the rest of time. No iloveoov, no July, no Anytime, no sAviOr, all of whom were opponents NaDa would face in the finals. Instead, imagine if he only faced the likes of Reach and Kingdom for all those finals, and subpar rookies who would struggle to even reach the semi-finals after years of attempting to do so.

There's no question that Taek-Beng-LeeSsang had superlative staying power. But that was in the face of decreasing influx of godlike talent, and incestuous competition between themselves and their peers (for the most part). That was always my feelings on the matter anyhow. There's multiple sides to a story, and I believe this particular narrative has rarely been told.

I think it is very telling that the player that ended Flash's reign at the top was the likes of FanTaSy and JangBi, instead of a new face that redefined professional Brood War as we know it. The incestuous nature of competitive Brood War is more pronounced than ever before, and it is a factor that played into the longevity of players who made their name towards the end of professional Brood War, in my opinion.
TL+ Member
Prev 1 2 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL 2v2 ProLeague S3
19:00
Day 2
ZZZero.O97
Liquipedia
Road to EWC
15:00
DreamHack Dallas Group Stage
ewc_black2379
ComeBackTV 1745
SteadfastSC1155
CranKy Ducklings619
Rex115
CosmosSc2 102
EnkiAlexander 95
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SteadfastSC 1155
Rex 115
CosmosSc2 102
Livibee 29
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 17932
Calm 4493
EffOrt 804
Shuttle 684
Dewaltoss 140
ZZZero.O 97
ggaemo 95
Aegong 34
HiyA 23
Sacsri 19
[ Show more ]
Backho 18
Dota 2
420jenkins349
NeuroSwarm54
febbydoto3
Counter-Strike
fl0m3602
Stewie2K427
Foxcn286
flusha202
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang0209
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu569
Khaldor165
Other Games
gofns12947
tarik_tv11510
FrodaN4198
summit1g3945
Grubby3518
mouzStarbuck161
KnowMe7
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• kabyraGe 220
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 34
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• FirePhoenix0
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota2915
League of Legends
• Doublelift3475
• TFBlade1058
Other Games
• imaqtpie1680
• Scarra994
• Shiphtur288
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
13h 40m
SC Evo League
15h 40m
Road to EWC
18h 40m
Afreeca Starleague
1d 8h
BeSt vs Soulkey
Road to EWC
1d 17h
Wardi Open
2 days
SOOP
3 days
NightMare vs Wayne
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
GSL Code S
4 days
Cure vs Zoun
Solar vs Creator
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
4 days
Online Event
4 days
Clem vs ShoWTimE
herO vs MaxPax
GSL Code S
5 days
GuMiho vs Bunny
ByuN vs SHIN
Online Event
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-05-16
2025 GSL S1
Calamity Stars S2

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
ASL Season 19
YSL S1
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
China & Korea Top Challenge
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
DreamHack Dallas 2025
Heroes 10 EU
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025
ESL Pro League S21

Upcoming

Rose Open S1
Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLAN 2025
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2025
2025 GSL S2
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.