EPTPlayers Who Were Held Back By Teammates - Page 2
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
On September 09 2017 11:56 Seeker wrote: I don't think BW TL people understand this reference. Errr what? Unless every started reading the site after 2012 o.o | ||
Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
On September 09 2017 14:09 Starlightsun wrote: LOL I never saw that picture before. Here's the brilliant thread for the newtimers: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/90341-pics-hwaseung-oz-new-recruits | ||
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hitthat
Poland2335 Posts
On September 10 2017 19:56 Carnac wrote: Here's the brilliant thread for the newtimers: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/90341-pics-hwaseung-oz-new-recruits Lol, the last post in that thread renew my anger so much that I feel schadenfreude warmth again when realising what happened in last 2 years ^^ | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 11 2017 00:10 hitthat wrote: Lol, the last post in that thread renew my anger so much that I feel schadenfreude warmth again when realising what happened in last 2 years ^^ I actually would have less resentment in my heart, if the Starcraft 2 scene actually delivered on its promise, and the demise of professional Brood War gave birth to something the Brood War scene could only hope to be. If that was so, even if I personally didn't follow Starcraft 2, I could at least tell myself that my heroes had their careers ended for something much greater. Instead, what I saw was a bunch of annoying little twats arguing about how many Korean players were in the brackets, and I was left to wonder about an alternate timeline where the global community didn't care whether Korea participated in Starcraft 2 or not, and everybody would just let each other be. The bitter irony of seeing people calling for the end of professional Brood War in order to force more Korean professionals into the Starcraft 2 scene, while at the same time witnessing people complaining about the influx of additional Korean players, probably by those who didn't even pause for a second to realize the level of the unnecessary catastrophic degradation of the most magnificent professional e-Sports scene the world ever saw just to make that exact situation come to be, was just too much for me. | ||
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CHEONSOYUN
566 Posts
On September 11 2017 00:34 Letmelose wrote: I actually would have less resentment in my heart, if the Starcraft 2 scene actually delivered on its promise, and the demise of professional Brood War gave birth to something the Brood War scene could only hope to be. If that was so, even if I personally didn't follow Starcraft 2, I could at least tell myself that my heroes had their careers ended for something much greater. Instead, what I saw was a bunch of annoying little twats arguing about how many Korean players were in the brackets, and I was left to wonder about an alternate timeline where the global community didn't care whether Korea participated in Starcraft 2 or not, and everybody would just let each other be. The bitter irony of seeing people calling for the end of professional Brood War in order to force more Korean professionals into the Starcraft 2 scene, while at the same time witnessing people complaining about the influx of additional Korean players, probably by those who didn't even pause for a second to realize the level of the unnecessary catastrophic degradation of the most magnificent professional e-Sports scene the world ever saw just to make that exact situation come to be, was just too much for me. sc2 fans never cared about bw players on an individual level. "flash bisu jaedong" and that's the end of the list, not counting other big names in the bingo book even then, only hyperbole was given about taekbangleesang. although blizzard carries the most blame for forcing the switch, it was just sad seeing how little sc2 fans cared about the amazing players forced to play their game | ||
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CHEONSOYUN
566 Posts
although bogus and wooki have found success in sc2, i would have loved to have seen what they could have accomplished in a continuing bw scene. and soulkey and rain no one seems to shed a tear for their departure | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 11 2017 02:10 CHEONSOYUN wrote: sc2 fans never cared about bw players on an individual level. "flash bisu jaedong" and that's the end of the list, not counting other big names in the bingo book even then, only hyperbole was given about taekbangleesang. although blizzard carries the most blame for forcing the switch, it was just sad seeing how little sc2 fans cared about the amazing players forced to play their game People care about them in a historical context, which is exactly why flash got hyped every time he showed a little bit of promise. JD got to be one of the most liked korean players in the foreign scene as well, i still remember his blizzcon finals and how basically everyone wanted him to win it. I get that you guys are frustrated but these descriptions here are incredibly unfair. Rain is definitely a player who is missed a lot in the sc2 scene, soulkey less so because he left less of an impression besides his big final win vs innovation (bogus) in gsl. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 11 2017 02:19 The_Red_Viper wrote: People care about them in a historical context, which is exactly why flash got hyped every time he showed a little bit of promise. JD got to be one of the most liked korean players in the foreign scene as well, i still remember his blizzcon finals and how basically everyone wanted him to win it. I get that you guys are frustrated but these descriptions here are incredibly unfair. Rain is definitely a player who is missed a lot in the sc2 scene, soulkey less so because he left less of an impression besides his big final win vs innovation (bogus) in gsl. Jaedong is one of the most storied professional gamers to ever come out of the Korea. If I am supposed to be honoured by the fact that he got more support than sHy did when he met him in the finals, perhaps I have not made myself clear. Professional Brood War isn't composed of a couple of stars that are appreciated even by the most generic fan of other e-Sports titles. It was scene that had thousands of talented players, dozens of professional teams, and a half a dozen dedicated television stations dedicated towards it. Not all of them made it throughout the years, but Jaedong was one of the stand-out stars that was born from the ecosystem. I don't think you understand the scale of the destruction if you think I would be soothed by the fact a random Starcraft 2 fan was delighted to hear that the greatest legends from another game was "trying" their game out. From what I gather, Starcraft 2 was doing just fine before the forced merge with the professional Brood War scene. I'm sure there were those who appreciated the unbelievable legacies some of the Brood War players built up for themselves over the years, but I believe that one of the most forced narratives rooted in Starcraft 2 was whether people could "overcome" the Koreans at "Starcraft", of course the recruitment of the best Brood War players that ever existed would be an exciting addition. It was like a bunch of table tennis players being giddy at the fact that Roger Federer at the peak of his powers was joining their ranks. Surely if everyone were fully appreciative of the exact extent of Flash, or Jaedong's magnificence, the undeserved end to their Brood War career would have been met with at least some level of remorse, not the kind of dickhead posts that we saw. It got even worse when hundreds of people gathered to complain about the number of Koreans after the forced narrative of people "overcoming" the Koreans at "Starcraft" dried up real quick. Considering the vibrant state of Starcraft 2 before it swallowed the professional Brood War scene, and how the recruitment of literally every active KeSPA Brood War professional who didn't opt for immediate retirement didn't really pan out as planned, I am left to wonder if it was all worth it. I'm sure there were wonderful moments in Starcraft 2 as well, but you can have wonderful moments without swallowing an entire scene that had clearly shown its intentions to stay independent for years before Blizzard finally broke their will. Professional Brood War had built up their legends from the ground up. Professional Starcraft 2, from what I've heard, had their own stars, and there was no need for Blizzard to artificially transfer legends from another game over to their scene of choice, simply for the narrative value. That level of dedication towards the destruction of another scene should have birthed something more meaningful than more people cheering for Jaedong than sHy at the Blizzcon finals.  | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Again, people got excited about the possibilites, people talked about the historical context of these players. Flash got overhyped all the time in sc2 because of his broodwar success. Jaedong was a big fan favorite because of his legacy and later because he was joining a foreign team/learning english. I am not saying that the switch created something more meaningful, not even close. But saying that people in the sc2 scene didn't value the players enough seems absurd. Being a legend in one game also can only get you so far. I know that bw fans in general have a clear opinion about what game is the more legit one and thus they like to downplay the fact that JD, Flash, Bisu and Stork simply didn't produce great results in sc2 (or rather imply it is the "fault" of the game) but it is definitely relevant to consider this. Especially when players like Bogus delivered and are now basically sc2 "legends" (not to the same extent as TBLS in BW, but you get the point) Were there dickheads back then who had to tease bw fans with the switch? Yeah sure. But there are always trolls who do stuff like that. In general the sc2 scene simply tried to enjoy their games, players and at the end their historical players. It's sad that bw lost the chance to find out what would have happened after Jangbi's OSL wins. Would Soulkey, Rain and Bogus have been the next big players? Seems likely considering that they were stars in sc2. Would Flash have broken all the records? Maybe. We will never know and i also think that sucks even though i only got to watch bw at the very end (i think my first bw game i watched "live" was Shine vs Flash, the one where he built the hatch + nydus in Flash's base). I know you are very passionate about bw and that's why i enjoy your posts so much so i don't wanna offend you by any means, but as i said it's still weird to me to basically say "sc2 fans didn't appreciate it enough". | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 11 2017 10:27 The_Red_Viper wrote: Don't get me wrong, i am not saying it was "worth it" by any means! I simply think it is unfair to imply that the people who got into rts games with sc2 had an obligation to be incredibly thankful that these players joined their scene / or to imply that people didn't care about it at all. Again, people got excited about the possibilites, people talked about the historical context of these players. Flash got overhyped all the time in sc2 because of his broodwar success. Jaedong was a big fan favorite because of his legacy and later because he was joining a foreign team/learning english. I am not saying that the switch created something more meaningful, not even close. But saying that people in the sc2 scene didn't value the players enough seems absurd. Being a legend in one game also can only get you so far. I know that bw fans in general have a clear opinion about what game is the more legit one and thus they like to downplay the fact that JD, Flash, Bisu and Stork simply didn't produce great results in sc2 (or rather imply it is the "fault" of the game) but it is definitely relevant to consider this. Especially when players like Bogus delivered and are now basically sc2 "legends" (not to the same extent as TBLS in BW, but you get the point) Were there dickheads back then who had to tease bw fans with the switch? Yeah sure. But there are always trolls who do stuff like that. In general the sc2 scene simply tried to enjoy their games, players and at the end their historical players. It's sad that bw lost the chance to find out what would have happened after Jangbi's OSL wins. Would Soulkey, Rain and Bogus have been the next big players? Seems likely considering that they were stars in sc2. Would Flash have broken all the records? Maybe. We will never know and i also think that sucks even though i only got to watch bw at the very end (i think my first bw game i watched "live" was Shine vs Flash, the one where he built the hatch + nydus in Flash's base). I know you are very passionate about bw and that's why i enjoy your posts so much so i don't wanna offend you by any means, but as i said it's still weird to me to basically say "sc2 fans didn't appreciate it enough". Would you agree that a significant enough number of Starcraft 2 fans place the over-abundance of Korean players as one of the major reasons for the downfall of Starcraft 2? There is nothing more gut-wrenching than seeing somebody to take away something you care for deeply, only to throw it away broken and morphed irreversibly, as if he didn't want any of it in the first place. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
It's also not surprising that if you have a bigger english speaking audience that this audience might favor english speaking players. Personally i never had this pov because i found the way to korean starcraft rather fast, but it doesn't surprise me and i also don't blame people for thinking that way tbh. I think it is natural. I can totally see that it would make people who were deeply invested into the bw scene and thus the korean scene would feel otherwise though. I still think it is really hard to blame the average fan who simply wants to enjoy what he has. It might be ignorance on their part but for some watching these esports tournaments was just lighthearted fun, we who are investing more time into it are pretty "hardcore" in that respect and not everyone has to reach the same involvement i think. Just a thought | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 11 2017 11:37 The_Red_Viper wrote: Yes i would definitely say these people exist, mainly more "casual" people who only got into the starcraft scene through the early weekend tournaments like MLG. BW never had the same global presence as far as i understand (not saying there was nothing, but comparatively) so you basically got introduced to the korean scene naturally. In sc2 that wasn't necessarily the case, my first tournaments i watched also were ones where only foreigners played. I got into it because of Idra and Dimaga. It's also not surprising that if you have a bigger english speaking audience that this audience might favor english speaking players. Personally i never had this pov because i found the way to korean starcraft rather fast, but it doesn't surprise me and i also don't blame people for thinking that way tbh. I think it is natural. I can totally see that it would make people who were deeply invested into the bw scene and thus the korean scene would feel otherwise though. I still think it is really hard to blame the average fan who simply wants to enjoy what he has. It might be ignorance on their part but for some watching these esports tournaments was just lighthearted fun, we who are investing more time into it are pretty "hardcore" in that respect and not everyone has to reach the same involvement i think. Just a thought There are groupies who just want to get it on with people who appear on television without even having the remotest understanding of the actual game displayed on screen. There are those who just want to milk as much money from the industry for their own personal advancement. There are people who enjoy competition at the most base level and having nothing to cheer for but flags. There are those who take sick pleasure in taking away what is treasured by others. These are all natural human behaviours, and it's something we have put up with everyday. Sometimes, we witness the creation of something that seems to be more just that. Something that doesn't magnify natural human flaws, but actually represents some of the best qualities found in mankind. Dedication, passion, and ingenuity. It wasn't just the players, but the viewerbase too. People with genuine interest over who was the best at competitive Brood War. There was something special here. Of course you still had the brain-dead groupies who just wanted some time with somebody who appeared on television, and sell-outs like sAviOr who just saw the scene as a means to fill his pockets, but the good found in the scene was overwhelmed the bad, in my opinion. If all that had to come to end, for what countless number of people told me, a brighter future of e-Sports, there would have been a part of me that would have accepted such a fate. That is, if I didn't come across such degenerate plebs with such frequency. People who had zero interest in who actually was the best at the game. People who were totally reliant on base narratives, and were quick to express their displeasure if those forced narratives did not come into fruition. People who were more sensitive to the Twitch viewercount, and their "rivalry" with League of Legends, than what was actually happening on screen. I know it doesn't help anyone, but I couldn't help myself from thinking: "So much for the future of e-Sports" | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2356 Posts
On September 07 2017 20:06 hitthat wrote: Part about JD is a lie. He was supported all season by PirateZerg, MustacheZerg and OzSucksBallsWithoutMeZerg. 100% right | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2142 Posts
On September 09 2017 11:56 Seeker wrote: I don't think BW TL people understand this reference. the sc2 version with taeja is based on a bw post with jaedong | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50749 Posts
On September 09 2017 11:56 Seeker wrote: I don't think BW TL people understand this reference. its a BW TL reference | ||
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37066 Posts
On September 12 2017 16:00 -NegativeZero- wrote: the sc2 version with taeja is based on a bw post with jaedong OMFG... How did I forget about that... I should just keep my mouth shut. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On September 11 2017 13:31 Letmelose wrote: There are groupies who just want to get it on with people who appear on television without even having the remotest understanding of the actual game displayed on screen. There are those who just want to milk as much money from the industry for their own personal advancement. There are people who enjoy competition at the most base level and having nothing to cheer for but flags. There are those who take sick pleasure in taking away what is treasured by others. These are all natural human behaviours, and it's something we have put up with everyday. Sometimes, we witness the creation of something that seems to be more just that. Something that doesn't magnify natural human flaws, but actually represents some of the best qualities found in mankind. Dedication, passion, and ingenuity. It wasn't just the players, but the viewerbase too. People with genuine interest over who was the best at competitive Brood War. There was something special here. Of course you still had the brain-dead groupies who just wanted some time with somebody who appeared on television, and sell-outs like sAviOr who just saw the scene as a means to fill his pockets, but the good found in the scene was overwhelmed the bad, in my opinion. If all that had to come to end, for what countless number of people told me, a brighter future of e-Sports, there would have been a part of me that would have accepted such a fate. That is, if I didn't come across such degenerate plebs with such frequency. People who had zero interest in who actually was the best at the game. People who were totally reliant on base narratives, and were quick to express their displeasure if those forced narratives did not come into fruition. People who were more sensitive to the Twitch viewercount, and their "rivalry" with League of Legends, than what was actually happening on screen. I know it doesn't help anyone, but I couldn't help myself from thinking: "So much for the future of e-Sports" Have you considered the possibility that you're a bit of a delusional BW groupie yourself? | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 18 2017 04:49 Saechiis wrote: Have you considered the possibility that you're a bit of a delusional BW groupie yourself? I'm certain of it. I've yet to come across a person without delusional thoughts. Delusional thoughts are best thwarted with sound logic and irrefutable facts, however, rather than pointing out the obvious fact that human perception of reality is essentially warped to our own liking. Snide comments aside, if you actually want to discuss the topic at hand, feel free to do so. It seems my post irked you. Surely you have more to say on the matter than meaningless one-liners. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
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