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I will start with Shinhan 2008 ProLeague, because that's the oldest season of ProLeague that I could find information on the overall scores for all of the teams, and I don't want to spend six hours counting the overall scores of every team for five years worth of ProLeague schedule.
The first thing I will look into is the players with a good performance in the regular season and the play-offs, and will look into how much their team won without the gamer in question playing for the team.
1. Flash in Shinhan 2008 ProLeague
Flash's total number of victories: 17
KT Rolster's total number of victories without Flash (one-versus-one games only): 20
Flash's contributions to the total number of his team's victories: 45.95%
This was the season that gave birth to the nickname, "Child Labour Terran". Flash had absolutely zero support from his team as his ProLeague heroics failed to launch his lackluster team to the play-off rounds.
2. Jaedong in Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague
Jaedong's total number of victories: 63
Hwaseung Oz's total number of victories without Jaedong: 79
Jaedong's contributions to the total number of his team's victories: 44.37%
In perhaps one of the most heart-breaking tale of one superlative player failing miserably in his attempt to overthrow an empire. Jaedong dragged his lifeless team to second place in the 2009 Winners League, and to second place in ProLeague.
3. Jaedong in Shinhan 2009/2010 ProLeague
Jaedong's total number of victories: 52
Hwaseung Oz's total number of victories without Jaedong: 73
Jaedong's contributions to the total number of his team's victories: 41.6%
Jaedong had a dip in form the following year, but his team also did even worse without him than the year before.
4. Flash in Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague
Flash's total number of victories: 54
KT Rolster's total number of victories without Flash: 76
Flash's contributions to the total number of his team's victories: 41.54%
Flash slaved away for his useless team, but accomplished nothing due to his less than stellar teammates.
5. Leta in Shinhan 2009/2010 ProLeague
Leta's total number of victories: 43
HITE Sparkyz's total number of victories without Light: 64
Light's contributions to the total number of his team's victories: 40.19%
HITE Sparkyz was plagued by key members of the match-fixing scandal, and people were leaking replays left and right in order to fix matches. Leta somehow still managed to maintain his form despite having his key strategies leaked by backstabbing teammates who sold out for financial reasons.
6. Pure in Shinhan 2008 ProLeague
Pure's total number of victories: 14
WeMade Fox's total number of victories without Pure (one-versus-one games only): 22
Pure's contributions to the total number of his team's victories: 38.89%
Pure had the performance of his lifetime in this season of the ProLeague, but it was ultimately all a fruitless endeavour, especially since nobody cares about what Pure did in the past.
7. Flash in Shinhan 2009/2010 ProLeague
Flash's total number of victories: 61
KT Rolster's total number of victories without Flash: 96
Flash's contributions to the total number of his team's victories: 38.85%
A story of a one man team with a happy ending for once. Flash put his mediocre team on his back, and carried them all the way to glory in both the 2010 Winners League, and the entire ProLeague season versus the SK Telecom T1 empire. A somewhat stark contrast to the year before when SK Telecom T1 was able to break Jaedong.
8. Bisu in Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague
Bisu's total number of victories: 55
SK Telecom T1's total number of victories without Bisu: 101
Bisu's contributions to the total number of his team's victories: 35.26%
This was the period, in my opinion, when Bisu was at the peak of his powers. Bisu was doing fantastic in the ProLeague, and was able to accompany that with respectable individual leagues placings. Bisu played a huge part in SK Telecom T1 revival as a top level team before FanTaSy had yet to establish himself as a carrying force for the team.
9. Light in Shinhan 2009/2010 ProLeague
Light's total number of victories: 49
MBC Game HERO's total number of victories without Light: 97
Light's contributions to the total number of his team's victories: 33.56%
Light was at the peak of his powers, making MBC Game HERO relevant once again, and although Sea was decent, Light was the true driving force behind his team's resurgence.
10. Leta in Shinhan 2008/2009 ProLeague
Leta's total number of victories: 49
OGN Sparkyz's Rolster's total number of victories without Leta: 99
Leta's contributions to the total number of his team's victories: 33.11%
The "Miracle Boy" worked his magic in an unprecedented thirteen ACE-match victories in this season, a number that has never been seen before, or since. Leta was literally the only reason why OGN Sparkyz managed to reach the play-off rounds this season.
11. Jaedong in Shinhan 2010/2011 ProLeague
Jaedong's total number of victories: 51
Hwaseung Oz's total number of victories without Jaedong: 105
Jaedong's contributions to the total number of his team's victories: 32.69%
Jaedong slaved away for yet another season, but his team was not a high-calibre team by any means. Hwaseng Oz would disband after this season, and Jaedong would never again find his original form after being moved to Team 8, a hastily created joke of a team with zero infrastructure.
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I'll add some players who played when both one-versus-one and two-versus-two games were played more of a role in the ProLeague, one step at a time.
Reach in KTF EVER Cup ProLeague
Reach's total number of victories: 16 (both one-versus-one, and two-versus-two victories added)
KTF MagicNs' total number of victories without Reach: 8
Reach's contributions to the total number of his team's victories: 66.67%
July in SKY 2005 ProLeague R2
July's total number of victories: 20 (both one-versus-one, and two-versus-two victories added)
POS' total number of victories without July: 21
July's contributions to the total number of his team's victories: 48.78%
NaDa in SKY 2005 ProLeague R2
NaDa's total number of victories: 19 (both one-versus-one, and two-versus-two victories added)
Pantech and Curitel Curriors's total number of victories without NaDa: 22
NaDa's contributions to the total number of his team's victories: 46.34%
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Part about JD is a lie. He was supported all season by PirateZerg, MustacheZerg and OzSucksBallsWithoutMeZerg.
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As an OZ fan, the reverse all kill in the WL finals and the personal tragedy of JDs performance in the PL final 2008/9 still hurts :[ Hmm, I think I need to watch the 2007 finals again.
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This is obviously purely hypothetical but i always wondered if JD would have been better/worse/same if he was on another team back then. Not even talking about his team8 days, that one seems clear enough.
But even his OZ days, sure he was the star and thus probably got better treatment, but other teams could have maybe had more ressources or better practice in general. Though iirc SKT and KT had a gentlemen's agreement to not get him? I think i heard something like that.
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On September 07 2017 21:54 Keniji wrote:
As an OZ fan, the reverse all kill in the WL finals and the personal tragedy of JDs performance in the PL final 2008/9 still hurts :[ Hmm, I think I need to watch the 2007 finals again.
You just reopened a wound that never healed. Ugh.
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Edit: thanks, good job 
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I forgot all about "child labor terran"... ah the memories.
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Jaedong should have pulled a Durant and just joined KT.
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On September 07 2017 23:22 The_Red_Viper wrote:
This is obviously purely hypothetical but i always wondered if JD would have been better/worse/same if he was on another team back then. Not even talking about his team8 days, that one seems clear enough.
But even his OZ days, sure he was the star and thus probably got better treatment, but other teams could have maybe had more ressources or better practice in general. Though iirc SKT and KT had a gentlemen's agreement to not get him? I think i heard something like that.
. . . I really question why people make these type of comments. I know you started posting stuff around SC2 bud, but come on. Just because they are on a separate team man doesn't mean they don't practice with other players from other teams. In fact, if you were watching PL back then you would notice players thanking other players from other teams all the time.
Koreans are so modest that more often than not when asked about rivalries they would laugh and say I didn't even know I had a rivalry. It wasn't until players like Jaedong and Flash were battling it out head to head that they would take notice of a rivalry.
So no.. team has little to do with it. There are countless of examples of teams with players who made it and they would say they didn't just scrimmage with their teammates all the time just like they would say in SC2.
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I never said that players couldn't play against people from other teams. But just from watching the JD documentary and the nalra series, etc it seems like they still mostly practiced with teammates.
It's also not only about practicing directly, there are different coaches, just talking with your teammates, etc.
So i rather question why you would quote me here, i don't think my hypothetical is that absurd at all.
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On September 07 2017 23:22 The_Red_Viper wrote:
This is obviously purely hypothetical but i always wondered if JD would have been better/worse/same if he was on another team back then. Not even talking about his team8 days, that one seems clear enough.
But even his OZ days, sure he was the star and thus probably got better treatment, but other teams could have maybe had more ressources or better practice in general. Though iirc SKT and KT had a gentlemen's agreement to not get him? I think i heard something like that.
We're in the land of make-believe here. There's nothing of value of what I'm about to say, but for fun, let's look into the all the teams that ever existed:
CJ Entus
An upgrade in terms of infrastructure and quality of practice partners. It would have been interesting to see the dynamic between Jaedong, EffOrt, and hydra.
Estro
Hell no.
KT Rolster
Flash was the alpha of the team. Jaedong's experience as a player for KT Rolster would hinge on his dynamic with Flash, and I'm not certain how that would play out.
Alpha-males don't always co-operate with the introduction of another alpha. When Didi came to Real Madrid after winning the World Cup, thes were the first words Di Stefano had to say to him.
“They say you’ve come to replace me. Well, you’re too old and not good enough.”
Di Stefano proceeded to freeze Didi out of the team, making it as difficult as possible for Didi to play his game.
MBC Game HERO
Hell no.
OGN Sparkyz
Hell no.
Samsung Khan
The team didn't have a rigorous training culture. So no.
SK Telecom T1
SK Telecom T1 reminds me of Manchester United under the rule of Alex Ferguson. They are a well-oiled machine, and brings forth great results, but I always got the impression that no player was bigger than the team itself (maybe except for BoxeR).
SK Telecom T1 definitely would have done better with Jaedong. I'm not so certain if Jaedong would have done better with SK Telecom T1.
STX SouL
A decent team, but the funding from the team dwindled as the company itself struggled. Being part of a sinking ship is not always good for a player's psychological well being. Even though Hwaseung was another company that bailed out as they struggled to keep up financially, they at least did what they could to keep Jaedong happy with the limited resources they had, I'm not sure if STX SouL would have been enough of an upgrade to abandon all that.
WeMade Fox
Hell no.
Woongjin Stars
The head coach of the team was said to be a huge admirer of Jaedong, and may have done his best to help Jaedong reach his full potential. Jaedong actually could have gone to Woongjin Stars, but ZerO probably would not have stayed at the team had that trade taken place. If ZerO, a player that could have been the ace player on a lot of teams, found a way to co-exist with Jaedong, I believe it is a possibility that Jaedong might have had even more depth to his game.
What I think is of interest, is that if Woongjin Stars were in posession of Jaedong, ZerO, and Soulkey, Flash would have had severe trouble finding the necessary high calibre practice partners to help him prepare for Jaedong. I already posted the story of how the Woongjin Stars zergs played a vital role in Flash being able to overcome Jaedong.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/517700-the-story-of-late-mech-translated-from-ygosu
So in my opinion, the only trade that would have been beneficial for Jaedong's career might have been a trade to Woongjin Stars. It definitely would have been an ideal situation for Jaedong in particular had ZerO stayed on the team even after Jaedong's arrival, but that would have never happened.
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So next blog "Players that teamkilled/were teamkilled in maior tournaments" maybe? 
I remmember some beeing notorious team killers (Fantasy was probably one of the biggest offender, lol)
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On September 07 2017 20:06 hitthat wrote:
Part about JD is a lie. He was supported all season by PirateZerg, MustacheZerg and OzSucksBallsWithoutMeZerg.
Bahaha!
Actually the blog confused me at first. I thought it was counting team victories, but it makes more sense as individual victories... So the second number is all wins of everyone else on the team combined.
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On September 08 2017 08:51 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I never said that players couldn't play against people from other teams. But just from watching the JD documentary and the nalra series, etc it seems like they still mostly practiced with teammates.
It's also not only about practicing directly, there are different coaches, just talking with your teammates, etc.
So i rather question why you would quote me here, i don't think my hypothetical is that absurd at all.
sure, practice partners existed. That doesn't mean they were playing against each other all the time. It's not just here say they flat out say it and they play against each other a lot.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36938 Posts
On September 07 2017 20:06 hitthat wrote:
Part about JD is a lie. He was supported all season by PirateZerg, MustacheZerg and OzSucksBallsWithoutMeZerg.
I don't think BW TL people understand this reference.
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On September 09 2017 11:56 Seeker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 20:06 hitthat wrote:
Part about JD is a lie. He was supported all season by PirateZerg, MustacheZerg and OzSucksBallsWithoutMeZerg. I don't think BW TL people understand this reference.
Why not? Everybody knows OZ's new players
![[image loading]](http://i39.tinypic.com/dey6id.jpg)
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United States10081 Posts
On September 09 2017 11:56 Seeker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 20:06 hitthat wrote:
Part about JD is a lie. He was supported all season by PirateZerg, MustacheZerg and OzSucksBallsWithoutMeZerg. I don't think BW TL people understand this reference.
wait what why wouldnt they? unless you mean that all the old BW TLers had already left the site by now.
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LOL I never saw that picture before.
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Japan11285 Posts
On September 09 2017 11:56 Seeker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 20:06 hitthat wrote:
Part about JD is a lie. He was supported all season by PirateZerg, MustacheZerg and OzSucksBallsWithoutMeZerg. I don't think BW TL people understand this reference.
Errr what? Unless every started reading the site after 2012 o.o
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
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Lol, the last post in that thread renew my anger so much that I feel schadenfreude warmth again when realising what happened in last 2 years ^^
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On September 11 2017 00:10 hitthat wrote:Lol, the last post in that thread renew my anger so much that I feel schadenfreude warmth again when realising what happened in last 2 years ^^
I actually would have less resentment in my heart, if the Starcraft 2 scene actually delivered on its promise, and the demise of professional Brood War gave birth to something the Brood War scene could only hope to be. If that was so, even if I personally didn't follow Starcraft 2, I could at least tell myself that my heroes had their careers ended for something much greater.
Instead, what I saw was a bunch of annoying little twats arguing about how many Korean players were in the brackets, and I was left to wonder about an alternate timeline where the global community didn't care whether Korea participated in Starcraft 2 or not, and everybody would just let each other be. The bitter irony of seeing people calling for the end of professional Brood War in order to force more Korean professionals into the Starcraft 2 scene, while at the same time witnessing people complaining about the influx of additional Korean players, probably by those who didn't even pause for a second to realize the level of the unnecessary catastrophic degradation of the most magnificent professional e-Sports scene the world ever saw just to make that exact situation come to be, was just too much for me.
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On September 11 2017 00:34 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 00:10 hitthat wrote:Lol, the last post in that thread renew my anger so much that I feel schadenfreude warmth again when realising what happened in last 2 years ^^ I actually would have less resentment in my heart, if the Starcraft 2 scene actually delivered on its promise, and the demise of professional Brood War gave birth to something the Brood War scene could only hope to be. If that was so, even if I personally didn't follow Starcraft 2, I could at least tell myself that my heroes had their careers ended for something much greater. Instead, what I saw was a bunch of annoying little twats arguing about how many Korean players were in the brackets, and I was left to wonder about an alternate timeline where the global community didn't care whether Korea participated in Starcraft 2 or not, and everybody would just let each other be. The bitter irony of seeing people calling for the end of professional Brood War in order to force more Korean professionals into the Starcraft 2 scene, while at the same time witnessing people complaining about the influx of additional Korean players, probably by those who didn't even pause for a second to realize the level of the unnecessary catastrophic degradation of the most magnificent professional e-Sports scene the world ever saw just to make that exact situation come to be, was just too much for me.
sc2 fans never cared about bw players on an individual level.
"flash bisu jaedong" and that's the end of the list, not counting other big names in the bingo book
even then, only hyperbole was given about taekbangleesang.
although blizzard carries the most blame for forcing the switch, it was just sad seeing how little sc2 fans cared about the amazing players forced to play their game
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the real tragedy for me were the careers of soulkey, bogus, wooki, by.sun/rain
although bogus and wooki have found success in sc2, i would have loved to have seen what they could have accomplished in a continuing bw scene.
and soulkey and rain no one seems to shed a tear for their departure
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On September 11 2017 02:10 CHEONSOYUN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 00:34 Letmelose wrote:On September 11 2017 00:10 hitthat wrote:Lol, the last post in that thread renew my anger so much that I feel schadenfreude warmth again when realising what happened in last 2 years ^^ I actually would have less resentment in my heart, if the Starcraft 2 scene actually delivered on its promise, and the demise of professional Brood War gave birth to something the Brood War scene could only hope to be. If that was so, even if I personally didn't follow Starcraft 2, I could at least tell myself that my heroes had their careers ended for something much greater. Instead, what I saw was a bunch of annoying little twats arguing about how many Korean players were in the brackets, and I was left to wonder about an alternate timeline where the global community didn't care whether Korea participated in Starcraft 2 or not, and everybody would just let each other be. The bitter irony of seeing people calling for the end of professional Brood War in order to force more Korean professionals into the Starcraft 2 scene, while at the same time witnessing people complaining about the influx of additional Korean players, probably by those who didn't even pause for a second to realize the level of the unnecessary catastrophic degradation of the most magnificent professional e-Sports scene the world ever saw just to make that exact situation come to be, was just too much for me. sc2 fans never cared about bw players on an individual level. "flash bisu jaedong" and that's the end of the list, not counting other big names in the bingo book even then, only hyperbole was given about taekbangleesang. although blizzard carries the most blame for forcing the switch, it was just sad seeing how little sc2 fans cared about the amazing players forced to play their game
People care about them in a historical context, which is exactly why flash got hyped every time he showed a little bit of promise. JD got to be one of the most liked korean players in the foreign scene as well, i still remember his blizzcon finals and how basically everyone wanted him to win it. I get that you guys are frustrated but these descriptions here are incredibly unfair.
Rain is definitely a player who is missed a lot in the sc2 scene, soulkey less so because he left less of an impression besides his big final win vs innovation (bogus) in gsl.
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On September 11 2017 02:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 02:10 CHEONSOYUN wrote:On September 11 2017 00:34 Letmelose wrote:On September 11 2017 00:10 hitthat wrote:Lol, the last post in that thread renew my anger so much that I feel schadenfreude warmth again when realising what happened in last 2 years ^^ I actually would have less resentment in my heart, if the Starcraft 2 scene actually delivered on its promise, and the demise of professional Brood War gave birth to something the Brood War scene could only hope to be. If that was so, even if I personally didn't follow Starcraft 2, I could at least tell myself that my heroes had their careers ended for something much greater. Instead, what I saw was a bunch of annoying little twats arguing about how many Korean players were in the brackets, and I was left to wonder about an alternate timeline where the global community didn't care whether Korea participated in Starcraft 2 or not, and everybody would just let each other be. The bitter irony of seeing people calling for the end of professional Brood War in order to force more Korean professionals into the Starcraft 2 scene, while at the same time witnessing people complaining about the influx of additional Korean players, probably by those who didn't even pause for a second to realize the level of the unnecessary catastrophic degradation of the most magnificent professional e-Sports scene the world ever saw just to make that exact situation come to be, was just too much for me. sc2 fans never cared about bw players on an individual level. "flash bisu jaedong" and that's the end of the list, not counting other big names in the bingo book even then, only hyperbole was given about taekbangleesang. although blizzard carries the most blame for forcing the switch, it was just sad seeing how little sc2 fans cared about the amazing players forced to play their game People care about them in a historical context, which is exactly why flash got hyped every time he showed a little bit of promise. JD got to be one of the most liked korean players in the foreign scene as well, i still remember his blizzcon finals and how basically everyone wanted him to win it. I get that you guys are frustrated but these descriptions here are incredibly unfair. Rain is definitely a player who is missed a lot in the sc2 scene, soulkey less so because he left less of an impression besides his big final win vs innovation (bogus) in gsl.
Jaedong is one of the most storied professional gamers to ever come out of the Korea. If I am supposed to be honoured by the fact that he got more support than sHy did when he met him in the finals, perhaps I have not made myself clear.
Professional Brood War isn't composed of a couple of stars that are appreciated even by the most generic fan of other e-Sports titles. It was scene that had thousands of talented players, dozens of professional teams, and a half a dozen dedicated television stations dedicated towards it. Not all of them made it throughout the years, but Jaedong was one of the stand-out stars that was born from the ecosystem.
I don't think you understand the scale of the destruction if you think I would be soothed by the fact a random Starcraft 2 fan was delighted to hear that the greatest legends from another game was "trying" their game out. From what I gather, Starcraft 2 was doing just fine before the forced merge with the professional Brood War scene. I'm sure there were those who appreciated the unbelievable legacies some of the Brood War players built up for themselves over the years, but I believe that one of the most forced narratives rooted in Starcraft 2 was whether people could "overcome" the Koreans at "Starcraft", of course the recruitment of the best Brood War players that ever existed would be an exciting addition.
It was like a bunch of table tennis players being giddy at the fact that Roger Federer at the peak of his powers was joining their ranks. Surely if everyone were fully appreciative of the exact extent of Flash, or Jaedong's magnificence, the undeserved end to their Brood War career would have been met with at least some level of remorse, not the kind of dickhead posts that we saw. It got even worse when hundreds of people gathered to complain about the number of Koreans after the forced narrative of people "overcoming" the Koreans at "Starcraft" dried up real quick.
Considering the vibrant state of Starcraft 2 before it swallowed the professional Brood War scene, and how the recruitment of literally every active KeSPA Brood War professional who didn't opt for immediate retirement didn't really pan out as planned, I am left to wonder if it was all worth it. I'm sure there were wonderful moments in Starcraft 2 as well, but you can have wonderful moments without swallowing an entire scene that had clearly shown its intentions to stay independent for years before Blizzard finally broke their will. Professional Brood War had built up their legends from the ground up. Professional Starcraft 2, from what I've heard, had their own stars, and there was no need for Blizzard to artificially transfer legends from another game over to their scene of choice, simply for the narrative value. That level of dedication towards the destruction of another scene should have birthed something more meaningful than more people cheering for Jaedong than sHy at the Blizzcon finals.
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Don't get me wrong, i am not saying it was "worth it" by any means! I simply think it is unfair to imply that the people who got into rts games with sc2 had an obligation to be incredibly thankful that these players joined their scene / or to imply that people didn't care about it at all.
Again, people got excited about the possibilites, people talked about the historical context of these players. Flash got overhyped all the time in sc2 because of his broodwar success. Jaedong was a big fan favorite because of his legacy and later because he was joining a foreign team/learning english.
I am not saying that the switch created something more meaningful, not even close. But saying that people in the sc2 scene didn't value the players enough seems absurd. Being a legend in one game also can only get you so far. I know that bw fans in general have a clear opinion about what game is the more legit one and thus they like to downplay the fact that JD, Flash, Bisu and Stork simply didn't produce great results in sc2 (or rather imply it is the "fault" of the game) but it is definitely relevant to consider this. Especially when players like Bogus delivered and are now basically sc2 "legends" (not to the same extent as TBLS in BW, but you get the point)
Were there dickheads back then who had to tease bw fans with the switch? Yeah sure. But there are always trolls who do stuff like that. In general the sc2 scene simply tried to enjoy their games, players and at the end their historical players. It's sad that bw lost the chance to find out what would have happened after Jangbi's OSL wins. Would Soulkey, Rain and Bogus have been the next big players? Seems likely considering that they were stars in sc2. Would Flash have broken all the records? Maybe. We will never know and i also think that sucks even though i only got to watch bw at the very end (i think my first bw game i watched "live" was Shine vs Flash, the one where he built the hatch + nydus in Flash's base). I know you are very passionate about bw and that's why i enjoy your posts so much so i don't wanna offend you by any means, but as i said it's still weird to me to basically say "sc2 fans didn't appreciate it enough".
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On September 11 2017 10:27 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Don't get me wrong, i am not saying it was "worth it" by any means! I simply think it is unfair to imply that the people who got into rts games with sc2 had an obligation to be incredibly thankful that these players joined their scene / or to imply that people didn't care about it at all.
Again, people got excited about the possibilites, people talked about the historical context of these players. Flash got overhyped all the time in sc2 because of his broodwar success. Jaedong was a big fan favorite because of his legacy and later because he was joining a foreign team/learning english.
I am not saying that the switch created something more meaningful, not even close. But saying that people in the sc2 scene didn't value the players enough seems absurd. Being a legend in one game also can only get you so far. I know that bw fans in general have a clear opinion about what game is the more legit one and thus they like to downplay the fact that JD, Flash, Bisu and Stork simply didn't produce great results in sc2 (or rather imply it is the "fault" of the game) but it is definitely relevant to consider this. Especially when players like Bogus delivered and are now basically sc2 "legends" (not to the same extent as TBLS in BW, but you get the point)
Were there dickheads back then who had to tease bw fans with the switch? Yeah sure. But there are always trolls who do stuff like that. In general the sc2 scene simply tried to enjoy their games, players and at the end their historical players. It's sad that bw lost the chance to find out what would have happened after Jangbi's OSL wins. Would Soulkey, Rain and Bogus have been the next big players? Seems likely considering that they were stars in sc2. Would Flash have broken all the records? Maybe. We will never know and i also think that sucks even though i only got to watch bw at the very end (i think my first bw game i watched "live" was Shine vs Flash, the one where he built the hatch + nydus in Flash's base). I know you are very passionate about bw and that's why i enjoy your posts so much so i don't wanna offend you by any means, but as i said it's still weird to me to basically say "sc2 fans didn't appreciate it enough".
Would you agree that a significant enough number of Starcraft 2 fans place the over-abundance of Korean players as one of the major reasons for the downfall of Starcraft 2?
There is nothing more gut-wrenching than seeing somebody to take away something you care for deeply, only to throw it away broken and morphed irreversibly, as if he didn't want any of it in the first place.
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Yes i would definitely say these people exist, mainly more "casual" people who only got into the starcraft scene through the early weekend tournaments like MLG. BW never had the same global presence as far as i understand (not saying there was nothing, but comparatively) so you basically got introduced to the korean scene naturally. In sc2 that wasn't necessarily the case, my first tournaments i watched also were ones where only foreigners played. I got into it because of Idra and Dimaga.
It's also not surprising that if you have a bigger english speaking audience that this audience might favor english speaking players. Personally i never had this pov because i found the way to korean starcraft rather fast, but it doesn't surprise me and i also don't blame people for thinking that way tbh. I think it is natural.
I can totally see that it would make people who were deeply invested into the bw scene and thus the korean scene would feel otherwise though. I still think it is really hard to blame the average fan who simply wants to enjoy what he has. It might be ignorance on their part but for some watching these esports tournaments was just lighthearted fun, we who are investing more time into it are pretty "hardcore" in that respect and not everyone has to reach the same involvement i think.
Just a thought
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On September 11 2017 11:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Yes i would definitely say these people exist, mainly more "casual" people who only got into the starcraft scene through the early weekend tournaments like MLG. BW never had the same global presence as far as i understand (not saying there was nothing, but comparatively) so you basically got introduced to the korean scene naturally. In sc2 that wasn't necessarily the case, my first tournaments i watched also were ones where only foreigners played. I got into it because of Idra and Dimaga.
It's also not surprising that if you have a bigger english speaking audience that this audience might favor english speaking players. Personally i never had this pov because i found the way to korean starcraft rather fast, but it doesn't surprise me and i also don't blame people for thinking that way tbh. I think it is natural.
I can totally see that it would make people who were deeply invested into the bw scene and thus the korean scene would feel otherwise though. I still think it is really hard to blame the average fan who simply wants to enjoy what he has. It might be ignorance on their part but for some watching these esports tournaments was just lighthearted fun, we who are investing more time into it are pretty "hardcore" in that respect and not everyone has to reach the same involvement i think.
Just a thought
There are groupies who just want to get it on with people who appear on television without even having the remotest understanding of the actual game displayed on screen. There are those who just want to milk as much money from the industry for their own personal advancement. There are people who enjoy competition at the most base level and having nothing to cheer for but flags. There are those who take sick pleasure in taking away what is treasured by others. These are all natural human behaviours, and it's something we have put up with everyday.
Sometimes, we witness the creation of something that seems to be more just that. Something that doesn't magnify natural human flaws, but actually represents some of the best qualities found in mankind. Dedication, passion, and ingenuity. It wasn't just the players, but the viewerbase too. People with genuine interest over who was the best at competitive Brood War. There was something special here. Of course you still had the brain-dead groupies who just wanted some time with somebody who appeared on television, and sell-outs like sAviOr who just saw the scene as a means to fill his pockets, but the good found in the scene was overwhelmed the bad, in my opinion.
If all that had to come to end, for what countless number of people told me, a brighter future of e-Sports, there would have been a part of me that would have accepted such a fate. That is, if I didn't come across such degenerate plebs with such frequency. People who had zero interest in who actually was the best at the game. People who were totally reliant on base narratives, and were quick to express their displeasure if those forced narratives did not come into fruition. People who were more sensitive to the Twitch viewercount, and their "rivalry" with League of Legends, than what was actually happening on screen. I know it doesn't help anyone, but I couldn't help myself from thinking:
"So much for the future of e-Sports"
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On September 07 2017 20:06 hitthat wrote:
Part about JD is a lie. He was supported all season by PirateZerg, MustacheZerg and OzSucksBallsWithoutMeZerg.
100% right
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On September 09 2017 11:56 Seeker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 20:06 hitthat wrote:
Part about JD is a lie. He was supported all season by PirateZerg, MustacheZerg and OzSucksBallsWithoutMeZerg. I don't think BW TL people understand this reference.
the sc2 version with taeja is based on a bw post with jaedong
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49626 Posts
On September 09 2017 11:56 Seeker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2017 20:06 hitthat wrote:
Part about JD is a lie. He was supported all season by PirateZerg, MustacheZerg and OzSucksBallsWithoutMeZerg. I don't think BW TL people understand this reference.
its a BW TL reference
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36938 Posts
On September 12 2017 16:00 -NegativeZero- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 11:56 Seeker wrote:On September 07 2017 20:06 hitthat wrote:
Part about JD is a lie. He was supported all season by PirateZerg, MustacheZerg and OzSucksBallsWithoutMeZerg. I don't think BW TL people understand this reference. the sc2 version with taeja is based on a bw post with jaedong
On September 13 2017 00:32 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 11:56 Seeker wrote:On September 07 2017 20:06 hitthat wrote:
Part about JD is a lie. He was supported all season by PirateZerg, MustacheZerg and OzSucksBallsWithoutMeZerg. I don't think BW TL people understand this reference. its a BW TL reference
OMFG... How did I forget about that... I should just keep my mouth shut.
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On September 11 2017 13:31 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 11:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Yes i would definitely say these people exist, mainly more "casual" people who only got into the starcraft scene through the early weekend tournaments like MLG. BW never had the same global presence as far as i understand (not saying there was nothing, but comparatively) so you basically got introduced to the korean scene naturally. In sc2 that wasn't necessarily the case, my first tournaments i watched also were ones where only foreigners played. I got into it because of Idra and Dimaga.
It's also not surprising that if you have a bigger english speaking audience that this audience might favor english speaking players. Personally i never had this pov because i found the way to korean starcraft rather fast, but it doesn't surprise me and i also don't blame people for thinking that way tbh. I think it is natural.
I can totally see that it would make people who were deeply invested into the bw scene and thus the korean scene would feel otherwise though. I still think it is really hard to blame the average fan who simply wants to enjoy what he has. It might be ignorance on their part but for some watching these esports tournaments was just lighthearted fun, we who are investing more time into it are pretty "hardcore" in that respect and not everyone has to reach the same involvement i think.
Just a thought There are groupies who just want to get it on with people who appear on television without even having the remotest understanding of the actual game displayed on screen. There are those who just want to milk as much money from the industry for their own personal advancement. There are people who enjoy competition at the most base level and having nothing to cheer for but flags. There are those who take sick pleasure in taking away what is treasured by others. These are all natural human behaviours, and it's something we have put up with everyday. Sometimes, we witness the creation of something that seems to be more just that. Something that doesn't magnify natural human flaws, but actually represents some of the best qualities found in mankind. Dedication, passion, and ingenuity. It wasn't just the players, but the viewerbase too. People with genuine interest over who was the best at competitive Brood War. There was something special here. Of course you still had the brain-dead groupies who just wanted some time with somebody who appeared on television, and sell-outs like sAviOr who just saw the scene as a means to fill his pockets, but the good found in the scene was overwhelmed the bad, in my opinion. If all that had to come to end, for what countless number of people told me, a brighter future of e-Sports, there would have been a part of me that would have accepted such a fate. That is, if I didn't come across such degenerate plebs with such frequency. People who had zero interest in who actually was the best at the game. People who were totally reliant on base narratives, and were quick to express their displeasure if those forced narratives did not come into fruition. People who were more sensitive to the Twitch viewercount, and their "rivalry" with League of Legends, than what was actually happening on screen. I know it doesn't help anyone, but I couldn't help myself from thinking: "So much for the future of e-Sports"
Have you considered the possibility that you're a bit of a delusional BW groupie yourself?
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On September 18 2017 04:49 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 13:31 Letmelose wrote:On September 11 2017 11:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Yes i would definitely say these people exist, mainly more "casual" people who only got into the starcraft scene through the early weekend tournaments like MLG. BW never had the same global presence as far as i understand (not saying there was nothing, but comparatively) so you basically got introduced to the korean scene naturally. In sc2 that wasn't necessarily the case, my first tournaments i watched also were ones where only foreigners played. I got into it because of Idra and Dimaga.
It's also not surprising that if you have a bigger english speaking audience that this audience might favor english speaking players. Personally i never had this pov because i found the way to korean starcraft rather fast, but it doesn't surprise me and i also don't blame people for thinking that way tbh. I think it is natural.
I can totally see that it would make people who were deeply invested into the bw scene and thus the korean scene would feel otherwise though. I still think it is really hard to blame the average fan who simply wants to enjoy what he has. It might be ignorance on their part but for some watching these esports tournaments was just lighthearted fun, we who are investing more time into it are pretty "hardcore" in that respect and not everyone has to reach the same involvement i think.
Just a thought There are groupies who just want to get it on with people who appear on television without even having the remotest understanding of the actual game displayed on screen. There are those who just want to milk as much money from the industry for their own personal advancement. There are people who enjoy competition at the most base level and having nothing to cheer for but flags. There are those who take sick pleasure in taking away what is treasured by others. These are all natural human behaviours, and it's something we have put up with everyday. Sometimes, we witness the creation of something that seems to be more just that. Something that doesn't magnify natural human flaws, but actually represents some of the best qualities found in mankind. Dedication, passion, and ingenuity. It wasn't just the players, but the viewerbase too. People with genuine interest over who was the best at competitive Brood War. There was something special here. Of course you still had the brain-dead groupies who just wanted some time with somebody who appeared on television, and sell-outs like sAviOr who just saw the scene as a means to fill his pockets, but the good found in the scene was overwhelmed the bad, in my opinion. If all that had to come to end, for what countless number of people told me, a brighter future of e-Sports, there would have been a part of me that would have accepted such a fate. That is, if I didn't come across such degenerate plebs with such frequency. People who had zero interest in who actually was the best at the game. People who were totally reliant on base narratives, and were quick to express their displeasure if those forced narratives did not come into fruition. People who were more sensitive to the Twitch viewercount, and their "rivalry" with League of Legends, than what was actually happening on screen. I know it doesn't help anyone, but I couldn't help myself from thinking: "So much for the future of e-Sports" Have you considered the possibility that you're a bit of a delusional BW groupie yourself?
I'm certain of it. I've yet to come across a person without delusional thoughts. Delusional thoughts are best thwarted with sound logic and irrefutable facts, however, rather than pointing out the obvious fact that human perception of reality is essentially warped to our own liking.
Snide comments aside, if you actually want to discuss the topic at hand, feel free to do so. It seems my post irked you. Surely you have more to say on the matter than meaningless one-liners.
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You invite ridicule with your pretensious phrasing and theatric account of the BW gods' demise at the hands of a nefarious SC2 empire. SC2 has been out for 7 years, there are fresh BW leagues and a Remastered edition, too many legends streaming for even your BW hipster libido to handle and yet here I am, reading paragraphs of your veiled whining in random blogs, contemplating the crimes of reality. You're exactly the kind of degenerate groupie you're satirizing and I didn't have the mental fortitude to keep myself from hitting Post, my loss.
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On September 19 2017 03:05 Saechiis wrote:
You invite ridicule with your pretensious phrasing and theatric account of the BW gods' demise at the hands of a nefarious SC2 empire. SC2 has been out for 7 years, there are fresh BW leagues and a Remastered edition, too many legends streaming for even your BW hipster libido to handle and yet here I am, reading paragraphs of your veiled whining in random blogs, contemplating the crimes of reality. You're exactly the kind of degenerate groupie you're satirizing and I didn't have the mental fortitude to keep myself from hitting Post, my loss.
you should re-read this post when you've calmed down
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Thanks. Some advice for you, stop the "SC2 killed BW" circlejerk in random blogs that don't pertain to SC2. The fact that you're still crying after 7 years when there's a bunch of legends streaming BW remastered and ASL is a thing shows that you don't care about BW half as much as you care about whining about SC2 and Blizzard. As an actual fan of Starcraft I've gotten tired of reading your shit posts, keep it to yourself.
User was warned for this post
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On September 19 2017 05:59 Saechiis wrote:
Thanks. Some advice for you, stop the "SC2 killed BW" circlejerk in random blogs that don't pertain to SC2. The fact that you're still crying after 7 years when there's a bunch of legends streaming BW remastered and ASL is a thing shows that you don't care about BW half as much as you care about whining about SC2 and Blizzard. As an actual fan of Starcraft I've gotten tired of reading your shit posts, keep it to yourself.
Are you for real? letmelose is one of the best posters on this site. Yes i also disagreed with the bit about how random fans are not thankful enough, but that's just a tiny part.
I actually reported you for this because it is so absurd.
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On September 19 2017 05:59 Saechiis wrote:
Thanks. Some advice for you, stop the "SC2 killed BW" circlejerk in random blogs that don't pertain to SC2. The fact that you're still crying after 7 years when there's a bunch of legends streaming BW remastered and ASL is a thing shows that you don't care about BW half as much as you care about whining about SC2 and Blizzard. As an actual fan of Starcraft I've gotten tired of reading your shit posts, keep it to yourself.
User was warned for this post
Pity. I was actually waiting for something much more poignant. Remember that bit about shattering delusional thoughts? Try that route a bit more next time you try to belittle someone, it makes them feel really bad, if that happens to be your intention. If you do not have the will power to not click on my blogs despite getting tired of them, and insist on having verbal arguments about the very topic that tilted you to resort to this kind of hilarious behaviour, what I can do is ban you from my blogs. For your sake.
On October 23 2010 19:22 Saechiis wrote:
I think most people here choose KeSPA's side because they don't want Proleague to come to an end. When you think about it objectively though, Blizzard has every right to own the game they made. You can look at this from the "it's been 12 years, why would they suddenly care now?" -side. Or you can look at it from the perspective that Blizzard was nice enough to not shut down Proleague when it began all those years ago.
Some advice for you, as an actual fan of Starcraft who saw professional Brood War merely as some kind of a temporary, disposable thing that Blizzard was nice enough to let slide as long as it suited their benefits, I wouldn't pretend to be the voice of reason when you can't even tell the difference between professional Brood War that was on aired on prime time television, with Brood War internet communities literally being the single largest internet entity in Korea for over a decade, when such a phenomenon wasn't seen anywhere else in the world, and one of the many niche games that is available as a streaming content. You were just fine with the death of professional Brood War. I wasn't.
The fact that you lost your cool way more when a random, insignificant blog post was written, than when one of the most catostrophic moments for professional Brood War took place, seems to be very telling of your own predilections. It seems easy for you to order others around to let go, or stay objective and be reasonable when you have no eggs in the basket, but the same rule cannot be applied for yourself. Hypocrite much?
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I didn't realise this was your blog, I thought you and Cheonsoyun where going off on a rant about BW getting killed by SC2 in a random thread, which given the good state of both games at this moment seems like a ridiculous thing to do. I suppose if it's in your own blog then that's keeping it to yourself, my apologies.
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On September 19 2017 23:53 Saechiis wrote:
I didn't realise this was your blog, I thought you and Cheonsoyun where going off on a rant about BW getting killed by SC2 in a random thread, which given the good state of both games at this moment seems like a ridiculous thing to do. I suppose if it's in your own blog then that's keeping it to yourself, my apologies.
The irony of you calling something ridiculous, after literally tunnel-visioning on your little imaginary warfare so hard, that you somehow discovered a post on my blog without evening knowing it was my own is just precious. Thanks for the laughs, and keep the hypocrisy coming.
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There was nothing imaginary about my "warfare", it's just that in your own blog you have the right to be as delusional and whiny as you wish. If I had noticed I wouldn't have wasted my time arguing with someone who thinks resenting SC2 7 years after it's release is a rational thing to do.
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On September 20 2017 00:44 Saechiis wrote:
There was nothing imaginary about my "warfare", it's just that in your own blog you have the right to be as delusional and whiny as you wish. If I had noticed I wouldn't have wasted my time arguing with someone who thinks resenting SC2 7 years after it's release is a rational thing to do.
If there's one thing I can do to help your poor soul, it would be to ban you from my blogs so you don't have to waste any more time, since your own will power is severely lacking. What you lack in sound logic, facts, and simple things like recognizing your surroundings, you make up with vitriol and determination. A terrible combination to have, really.
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EPT
