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On June 05 2017 01:27 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2017 20:22 404AlphaSquad wrote:On June 04 2017 11:18 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 04 2017 08:24 404AlphaSquad wrote:
Here we go again with the superiority complex.
Personally I don't think that if someone is bad at BW, goes to SC2, and gets frustrated they lose to someone that never put in the hard work to develop BW-like mechanics, that it's necessarily elitism. But whatever. If you want to continue labeling people I'm done discussing it. Definition of elitism: the attitude or behavior of a person or group who regard themselves as belonging to an elite. How can anyone fault me for calling parts of bw community elitist if they call sc2 players "lesser players" and "inferior" and consider themselves superior to them (which is what you did in your original post). You may not want to see it as elitism, but it fits the definition perfectly. That's not elitism. I know you're not dumb. So stop trying to be. Elitism definition: the advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society. So no, your definition is completely wrong. An elitist is someone that advocates elite dominance. An elitist can be anyone, even a non-elite. An elite can also not be an elitist. Elite definition: a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities. So in our case, it would be those with strong BW mechanics. So to be an elitist one must advocate that the elite dominate a system or society. In our case the elite are those who spent time developing BW mechanics. But they aren't going around enslaving others, or banning them for certain forum posts. The only thing they are an elitist within is the system of playing BW. However I know that's not what you mean by elitism. When posters like you come along they conflate elitism of winning in BW/SC2 to elitism everywhere in the community. That type of conflation is just a dick move. Elitism within the system of StarCraft is exactly what an online ladder is about. People with BW mechanics spent an aweful lot of work developing those mechanics, so their elitism (advocacy that the elite should dominate within StarCraft 1v1) actually carries merit. So just blabbing around on the forums "oh boo hoo you're just an elitist waah that's my argument", is heavily implying A) people shouldn't be elitists at all; B) the elitism has no merit; C) the elitism extends beyond the system of StarCraft into the general forum society/BW community. The bottom line is it's totally rude to disrespect someone else's merit. Labeling someone an elitist like you and many other posters have been doing, is an asshole move. If someone really likes BW due to the mechanical nature, and expected that system to exist in SC2 and gets disappointed, that isn't elitism. They are talking about unmet expectations and frustration! Sure the frustration comes from their position as an elite in BW, but that's not even the point. By saying "oh you're an elitist and think SC2 players are inferior" that's A) a straw-man. Nobody said SC2 players are inferior, you did. The BW player is commenting about losing to a mechanically unskilled player at StarCraft - that is not labeling the SC2 player collective. B) You're showing you are also an elitist. You feel the elite at SC2 are not less than the elite in Brood War because the systems are different, and both elites have merit. So not only is calling this BW an elitist hypocritical, it is also asinine. All that's left are the implications the labeling brings, and I've already pointed out how rude those are. tl;dr Posters running around spouting "ELITISM": you look stupid, and you're not contributing positively to the forums
thanks for this post. I vote to put this in the OP of every "balance discussion" Thread in bold, red font. That "elitism" argument was nonsense when it was first brought up and things haven't changed.
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Germany1209 Posts
One point that I did not see yet but that is worth looking at is the aspect of "fun", both in playing and watching. After all this is a game. So what if I play a game and it's a really close one and come 30 minutes in there is a huge battle and then someone presses "i" instead of "o" and, without siege, the whole climax of this game becomes a one sided massacre. To no surprise the loser will be super frustrated. But even more important, the winner of such a game will most likely also be unhappy or even frustrated about this (if he learns the reason he won). It's still a win and still better than losing, but it's like winning because your enemy had a disconnect. It's just not very satisfying. It's a lose-lose situation. Same is true for watching a game. Sure, people will always lose because of one avoidable mistake, but those are the worst games to watch. Imagine the final game of chess world championship being lost because someone accidentally knocked over a piece. Yes, it's in the rules, yes it's part of the game. But it would kill ALL the fun for EVERYONE.
So to sum it up: yes this will slightly alter the game and I can completely understand anyone who wants to preserve as much as possible. So do I, in general. But aside from this general point of view every aspect should also be view by itself. And, imho, all you could gain from NOT allowing remapping is frustration. I could not come up with a single scenario in which NOT allowing it would lead to anyone having more fun/joy. If you have such an example please share it and I might change my view.
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On June 06 2017 12:23 CecilSunkure wrote:
You say some emotionally charged shit, and then make a wild conclusion that doesn't even follow.
you mean like the OP?
On May 27 2017 23:12 Endymion wrote:
Furthermore,the game won’t ask them to go and read up about “optimal hotkey” layouts
On May 29 2017 21:10 nanaoei wrote:
no-rebinds enthusiasts or whoever, go ahead and make a hotkey tutorial for all the budding starcraft players out there.
This is also a funny irony
On June 06 2017 22:32 Endymion wrote:
nah it's not entitlement, idra was saying that it's dumb that sc2 has such a low skill ceiling (as evident by him losing to mechanically inferior players in his eyes). he was unable to utilize his skillset because the game evens the playing field.
Citation needed. Also it is funny because at the time IdrA was playing and supposedly complaining the skill ceiling wasn't even close to reached, just as it isn't reached now. I also think you guys are really fucking pretentious. First you complain about the term elitism and then you use terms like "sc2 has such a low skill ceiling". As if anyone would have reached that skill ceiling yet. The only reason to use this word for the game is to imply that it doesn't require as much skill, since the skill ceiling is still unattainable. Only thing missing is some fucking "haha sc2 too ez for me".Fucking despicable attitude.
On June 06 2017 22:34 B-royal wrote:
Why are some people so clueless acting as if saying "you suddenly won't beat flash if you start using custom hotkeys" is an argument?
It matters for people that are otherwise equally skilled; so the situation where Flash plays Jaedong, while having a much superior hotkey set-up, will clearly affect the outcome of the game. Having siege mode and irradiate on much more accessible hotkeys will allow him to be even faster and even more precise. You're clueless if you think they don't make mistakes, or if you think that there's no difference between pressing I or O versus something like D or E. After all, your position IS that there's a huge difference between pressing those keys or you wouldn't care about needing custom hotkeys at all.
I don't understand how you can come to this conclusion. I guess you must have an attention deficiency.
My position is that it is a nice QOL change that wouldn't affect gameplay for 99,9999% of the player-base, while being mostly positive that it wouldn't affect professional play either (and even if it did, it doesn't have to be a negative influence). Please point out where I say that it would be tremendous and huge impactful difference if all I do in this thread is downplay the change. to BW purists. I will still play the game, no matter if they implement it or not.
On June 03 2017 20:12 404AlphaSquad wrote:
You can already rebind hotkeys on a lot of keyboards these days. I am sure you have faced people playing with custom hotkeys already, even though it might be technically still considered cheating. Did you notice a difference? Could you exactly tell who was using it? Probably not, so why make a big fuss about it when you are going to face such players on a regular basis now. If you like the extra-difficulty as a BW player to play with the original hotkeys, you can still do that you know. Nobody forces you to switch.
What if a progamer plays on a dvorak keyboard layout? Would he be at an advantage?
![[image loading]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/KB_United_States_Dvorak.svg/1280px-KB_United_States_Dvorak.svg.png)
Do I gain an unfair advantage by practicing on this keyboard?
What about Colemak?
![[image loading]](https://colemak.com/wiki/images/8/80/Colemak_layout_2.png)
It looks quite nice for Patrol/Pylon/Probe
+ Show Spoiler +
If thats ok, then what if I design my own keyboard with its own letter layout? for example like this (note I did this in a hurry to make a point) :
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZurLJae.png)
Do I gain an unfair advantage by practicing on my own keyboard?
If Jaedong plays with a logitech mouse g400 and Flash plays with a microsoft rollerball mouse. Does JD have an advantage? Should we implement a microsoft rollerball mouse only rule? What about gaming chairs/other equipment?
Or do we only allow AZERTY/QWERTZ/QWERTY/DVORAK keyboard layouts and call it a day? If Brood War was installed with a different language version (German, Spanish, French, Japanese...) the shortcuts are different. If this is such a big deal, why haven't we seen discussions about it in the past 20 years about what keyboards in which language for which race we should use? I guess it doesn't matter since we have the discussion now. Most modern keyboards allow you to change keys and even have special macro keys. What control mechanisms do you want to put in place to keep players from modifying their keyboards? That isnt even going into binding your mouse keys. "this mouse key works now as hotkey P, thus making patrol micro easier for me" I still haven't heard an answer to these questions.
This makes all these posts by the Endymion really fucking silly:
On May 30 2017 03:17 Endymion wrote:
and yes people have been doing it on iccup, and i think it's scummy to do it there too. i consider it on the same level as maphacking tbh, because there it's certainly providing you with an in-game benefit that i need a third party program to gain.
Yes, because everyone in the world plays with QWERTY hotkeys and has the english version of starcraft installed, making it an even playing field. lol. (I use QWERTZ btw, most people in France use AZERTY.) So Z is for me easier to reach, I guess I am a fucking maphacker in your eyes. Even though I bought the game and installed it and used my normal keyboard. Fucking ridiculous logic. Please, I didn't know I had the entire time this tremendously unfair advantage against all the other players I ever played in my life! Damn all this time, the last decade I was a cheater without even knowing it :O. This without third party software! No win was ever deserved and every loss even more humiliating!
Is it morally ambigious to play ladder in a different language than the english setting? If people prefer different keyboards to play BW and there is no "standard", what makes it morally ambiguous to make your own keyboard?
On May 29 2017 18:52 AbouSV wrote:
What about people that don't have qwerty keyboards, or some silly mouse (like with the numpad on the thumb)?
At which point can you include such 'strategical considerations if you don't even know what hardware your opponent has?
The only way to be fair in for everyone to play only on touchscreen, with the same resolution and size for everyone. Handy way to play.
On May 30 2017 03:17 Endymion wrote:
Again, i might be ignorant because i only play bw instead of watching, so please correct me if i'm wrong here: didn't all of the major korean tournies enforce players using only the english version of starcraft to standardize hotkeys across the language versions?? otherwise they would have just used KR for convenience sake. in all of the kr pc bangs that i have been i have never once seen a kr version of broodwar installed.
I dont think there is an official korean version of Brood War yet. It will come with the Remaster though. I guess that will ruin the game too.
Tbh I thought there would be a bigger uproar about the bigger aspect ratio, because these people actually do have a legitimate point about how this affects gameplay.
User was warned for this post
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On June 07 2017 21:55 Chosi wrote:
So to sum it up: yes this will slightly alter the game and I can completely understand anyone who wants to preserve as much as possible. So do I, in general. But aside from this general point of view every aspect should also be view by itself. And, imho, all you could gain from NOT allowing remapping is frustration. I could not come up with a single scenario in which NOT allowing it would lead to anyone having more fun/joy. If you have such an example please share it and I might change my view.
what about people who want to play games with legacy hotkeys that don't want to have to ask people to not rebind their keys before every game? like i said, i just don't consider 1.18.x broodwar because i feel like it removes an integral part of the stress of the ui, making it easier and less fun strategically because it makes the player matter less. that's where my frustration comes from. 1.16.1 and legacy hotkeys are being pushed to the side and will likely just die off in the wake of 1.18.x without proper support and or league/tourny customization
edit sorry 404, i think you're intentionally missing the point and flaming at this point. i have reiterated myself several times about where i draw the line, and it's exactly where the game has been for the past 19ish years. i'm not interested in making the game HARDER or EASIER like you imply with your different hardware analogy, i'm just annoyed that there is a change to the game that i don't think should be there. I see what you're trying to argue to a point (i think you think that it just doesn't make an impact on balance and that i'm just being elitist, and that there are bigger fish to fry), but I think my logic still stands. Additionally, i don't really care about aspect ratio. I wish that it wasn't there, but anyone above C already knows where everything in a 2 screen radius is already for the most part so i don't consider it to materially affect skill ceiling of the game. input matters are a completely different matter for me personally, but i can see why people would be upset about aspect ratios.
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On June 08 2017 01:32 Endymion wrote:
i'm not interested in making the game HARDER or EASIER like you imply with your different hardware analogy, i'm just annoyed that there is a change to the game that i don't think should be there. I see what you're trying to argue to a point (i think you think that it just doesn't make an impact on balance and that i'm just being elitist, and that there are bigger fish to fry), but I think my logic still stands.
....
i think you think that it just doesn't make an impact on balance and that i'm just being elitist....
Nah, I cant use that word anymore. You are a purist, even in aspects that don't make a slick of sense. Your standing logic being,"I don't want something to change. Change is bad. It is perfect now." The game might not have changed in the last 20 years. Every other hardware/OS has moved on. How do you move on with life. Change isn't necessarily a bad thing. Your position to halt change simply for the sake of halting change, doesn't hold its own ground when there are modern ways to go around that.
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One major reason to not want customizeable hotkeys is to discourage these kinds of posts (link 1, link 2, link 3). I could be wrong but I've always viewed these threads as a complete waste of celluloid. It's a bunch of low level players fooling themselves into thinking they are getting better by optimizing something of very low priority and importance.
In BW a refreshing aspect of the game is that the community could never have spawned such annoying topics.
I'm probably much more harsh than most people around here, because I took a lot of time in the past to actually write really high quality content that would legitimately help other nooby players improve. So seeing that kind of thread has always pissed me off.
Rebindable keys in BW will invite these kinds of morons over and clog the nice and pristine BW forum.
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I dont understand how 2 threads out of like 20 are a "major reason". That seems incredibly petty and insigifcant to even care about.
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What's insignificant about a large amount of energy dumping into something that won't improve player skill? Maybe it's just me but I would actually like the foreign community to not eternally suck compared to Korea.
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I'm almost certain things like the Core and the comparison between KR and not-KR are two completely unrelated topics.
I don't like the idea of using the Core for me either. Solution: I don't go there and practice what I wish instead. And in the end it's what everyone that could be on a competitive level with Korean is doing anyway.
If more people use things like the Core because they are not used to move around the keyboard and such use it kinda like a controller, with everything you need directly under your hand, then I'm perfectly ok with that. At least they are having interest in the same game than I, and more people means more chances to have events and such. So why not?
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I'm binding patrol to r, and there's nothing you can do about it, Endymion.
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On June 09 2017 12:05 CecilSunkure wrote:
What's insignificant about a large amount of energy dumping into something that won't improve player skill? Maybe it's just me but I would actually like the foreign community to not eternally suck compared to Korea.
First of all, too late for your second point. :-P
I mean, that's their prerogative ? That's kind of a discussion in any competitive game, what kind of settings they use, what dpi their mouse has, do they use macros etc. That's nothing to worked up about, even if you consider it a distraction to gitting gud.
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On June 09 2017 01:58 CecilSunkure wrote:One major reason to not want customizeable hotkeys is to discourage these kinds of posts ( link 1, link 2, link 3). I could be wrong but I've always viewed these threads as a complete waste of celluloid. It's a bunch of low level players fooling themselves into thinking they are getting better by optimizing something of very low priority and importance. In BW a refreshing aspect of the game is that the community could never have spawned such annoying topics. I'm probably much more harsh than most people around here, because I took a lot of time in the past to actually write really high quality content that would legitimately help other nooby players improve. So seeing that kind of thread has always pissed me off. Rebindable keys in BW will invite these kinds of morons over and clog the nice and pristine BW forum.
There we have an edgelord.
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WCS![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ngyybQc.png)
