The feature of rebinding hotkeys is removing an important aspect of strategy in broodwar.
There are two main aspects of strategy in starcraft that impact decision making: first, the obvious one, build orders/timings/troop movements/mind games/expansion timings/cheese/potential for cheese/ etc, or “game strategy.” All starcraft players, including AI, are restrained by the same things with regard to game variables (time, damage, speed, range, health, tech trees, resources, etc). If you only have 2 zerglings against 12 zealots, there’s next to nothing that you can do unless Blizzard was to give those zerglings +300 damage and +300 hp.. Likewise, on a more nuanced note, if you 14 CC and then 15 CC when your opponent 9pools, you’re pretty much dead given equal player skill/knowledge/etc. Blizzard is trying to not change this aspect of broodwar which is a no brainer, because the dev team (rightfully so) doesn’t want to impact balance/strategy between 1.16.1 and 1.18.x.
However, the second aspect of strategy in starcraft is what I’ll call “player strategy,” which changes from player to player and is somewhat absent when considering AI. Player strategy includes considerations with regard to apm, eapm, comfort with the UI, ability to think and execute under pressure, etc. As you’re aware, flashpoints in discussion like MBS and unlimited unit selection and unit pathing have been discussed to death prior to SC2’s release, throughout SC2’s life, and now in 1.18.x. Personally, I think that the lack of Blizzard’s understanding of this part of starcraft lead to SC2 being an inferior game. Now 1.18.x is threatened by the same ignorance, which I hope this post will somewhat alleviate. Oddly enough, day9 also mentioned the importance of this aspect of broodwar in one of his recent videos (right after or before 1.18.x was announced), although he wasn’t specifically talking about hotkeys. He was more referring to the importance of mechanical requirements and playing under pressure, from how I interpreted it.
You consciously or unconsciously temper your builds with understandings of your own mechanical abilities. An obvious example of this is playing against a godlike player and wanting to rush them to try to end the game as soon as possible so that your mechanical deficiency is limited to a shorter time span, decreasing its overall affect on your winrate vs the player (if you only go to 18 supply vs flash, you only have the chance to mess up building 2 overlords instead of trying to go to 100 supply, which would require more opportunities to make macro mistakes). Even playing vs players of your own skill level though, you choose builds that you feel most comfortable with. If you’re a player that excels at micro, you’ll focus on more aggressive builds that put your skill set at an advantage while disadvantaging your opponent relative to yourself. Likewise, if you’re the same micro player that has issues macroing off of 12 hatcheries, you’re probably not often going to try to 5 hatch hydra open vs protoss then transition into a macro heavy build because it just doesn’t suit your play style.. ESPECIALLY if that protoss is a strong macro protoss, because your skill set will be inferior in that sort of engagement of builds. This build choosing (and decision choosing, too) applies to ALL ‘player strategy’ considerations, not just hotkeys. I think that’s why in SC2 you didn’t see much differentiation between players, the mechanical considerations were so non-existent that everyone pretty much ended up playing the same optimal build. Broodwar has optimal builds as well, but player considerations have a much more noticeable effect on decision making, leading to more diverse games. Again, apm and eapm allocation, flavored with ui comfort and pressure considerations. I think the easiest way to get my point across is to give a few examples of some areas of strategy/skill differentiation that will be eliminated from the game if hotkey rebinding is implemented.
When you’re playing 1.16.1 and you can’t hit 5so6so7so8so reliably, your macro as a zerg is severely limited. Some people might say “dude, you don’t need to be able to make overlords from 4 hatches at once using only hotkeys!! Also, you can just click the icons too after hitting 5s!”, but I honestly believe that fluency in hotkeys is one of the most key features of a successful player’s repertoire. You might not need to hit 5so6so7so8so, but maybe you need to do 5sz6sz7sz8so, or 5sz6sz7so8sz depending on game conditions.. and if you end up missing the ‘o’ key on any of those rotations, and don’t notice, you are supply blocked, and will be behind as a result of your lack of practice/fluency with your hotkeys. Thus, you don’t just need to know “hey, ‘o’ is overlord,” you need to be ready to execute and allocate your practice accordingly. However, if you can just use a grid hotkey layout, I think your overlord would end up being ‘e,’ which even the noobest player could hit with near 100% accuracy on all hatchery macro rotations.. 5se6se7se8se,5se6sz7sz8sz, 5sz6se7sz8se, so you’re artificially a better player than a 1.16.1 player in that regard. You no longer have to really worry about fucking up your macro because Blizzard gave you an out in the form of rebinding overlord from ‘o’ to ‘e.’ I have been playing broodwar since release and I still miss ‘o’ at least once a game in the mentioned macro rotations, so I can only imagine that newer zergs have the same issue as well, which adds strategic considerations to their build and macro decisions.
Another common example even at high levels is ‘o’ for seiging/unseiging tanks.. if you’re stressed out in game and you miss the o key to seige, or if you DOUBLE click o, you’re at a significant disadvantage when juxtaposed with a mechanically superior player.. again, if your siege/unsiege is ‘e,’ the playing field is artifically leveled completely, alleviating this aspect of the game. some people might think that that mechanical superiority is an asinine distinction derived from archaic systems, but THAT’S WHAT STARCRAFT IS.. at least half of your skill as a broodwar player is your understanding of these stupid potential little mistakes that you yourself make, which better players don’t make (and worse players make more often).. your ability to play around your mistakes and operate in stressful situations is what makes you stand out compared to the guy sitting across from you and adds a lot to the nuance and strategy of the game.
Just so that protoss isn’t left out: hitting 5p6p7p8p is a pain. So is building pylons with bpbpbpbp etc. I really don’t play protoss much so i’m not sure about other considerations, but I know whenever I play hunters I have a hard time reliably building probes and pylons given the hotkeys, which gives mechanically superior protosses an advantage over me.
I’m sorry if a lot of this is common knowledge, it’s just frustrating seeing so many “broodwar players” ready to throw the heart of the game out the window for seemingly no reason.. you might think it’s not a huge deal, and it’s certainly not as massive as adding MBS or other assists. However, it’s still removing an aspect of skill, differentiation between players, and strategy from the game. Why is this being added in, for new players? New players should understand that while broodwar’s mechanics might seem outdated and restrictive, they as players are treated with the same respect by the game that the best of the best are. Additionally, new players can enjoy the benefit of throwing other new players off of form by owning them, leading them to fuck up their overlord macro.. they aren’t the only ones that suffer from this, they can use it to their advantage like everyone else already does. Furthermore,the game won’t ask them to go and read up about “optimal hotkey” layouts more than they already have to with vision hotkeys and control group layouts, allowing them to focus on improving at the game itself and enjoy broodwar in all its glory. That’s the appeal of starcraft for me at least.
Some people subscribe to the school of thought that making execution as easy as possible is always better and that games should be purely about decision making. I do not agree! Having "arbitrary" hard to execute things can be a good thing and can make games more fun and rewarding! However, it really depends on a case by case basis.
In your case I think you're wrong. Being able to rebind hotkeys won't hurt the game or the spirit of the game. Training yourself to have fluid, well organized execution will still be extremely important, highly rewarding and take plenty of time and effort. It's just going to make it more comfortable to play - especially for newer players.
In my view: the real reason people are getting upset over rebindable hotkeys - it's just this feeling off: "back in my day I had to learn to hit O to siege tanks damnit and now why shouldn't you!!". Please, have some compassion for the new generation of players. We will still have a very hard time catching up to oldschool people and we don't want to dumb down the game either. Being able to rebind awkward hotkeys does not dumb down the game.
On May 27 2017 23:14 ldv wrote: This is so pretentious.
Do people really think this? Kind of baffles me. I guess the really baffling thing is why would someone feel threatened that an older player really likes the way the game used to work, and is sad to see something deemed as important or unique sort of trampled upon. Do new players really feel like they need to remap hotkeys to play, and thus feel unwelcome by older players?
Here's Day9 talking about the sort of stuff Endymion is talking about:
Rebinding hotkeys is changing strategy? Man that is so overblown it's ridiculous at this point. I would completely understand this if MBS or instead of 12 there were 24 units allowed to be selected or something like that. But Hotkeys? I promise you this isn't going to change the game in anyway lol. I bet a month or 2 after the hotkeys are in you won't notice a difference in player skill and the game will look the same exact as it has.
Obviously Koreans aren't as against this as some foreigners on here as Blizzard seems to be taking Korean feedback seriously and if all the Koreans were as against this as you were, I don't think Blizzard would do it.
On May 28 2017 03:53 blade55555 wrote: Rebinding hotkeys is changing strategy? Man that is so overblown it's ridiculous at this point. I would completely understand this if MBS or instead of 12 there were 24 units allowed to be selected or something like that. But Hotkeys? I promise you this isn't going to change the game in anyway lol. I bet a month or 2 after the hotkeys are in you won't notice a difference in player skill and the game will look the same exact as it has.
Obviously Koreans aren't as against this as some foreigners on here as Blizzard seems to be taking Korean feedback seriously and if all the Koreans were as against this as you were, I don't think Blizzard would do it.
it removes an aspect of stress from the game, how exactly is that not changing the strategy of the game? i really don't see what is so ridiculous about what i have said, could you please explain?
On May 27 2017 23:14 ldv wrote: This is so pretentious.
Do people really think this? Kind of baffles me. I guess the really baffling thing is why would someone feel threatened that an older player really likes the way the game used to work, and is sad to see something deemed as important or unique sort of trampled upon. Do new players really feel like they need to remap hotkeys to play, and thus feel unwelcome by older players?
Here's Day9 talking about the sort of stuff Endymion is talking about:
What you're saying and what Day9 is saying is perfectly valid and reasonable and I agree! That's why no MBS, no infinite unit selection, etc. But the hotkey rebinding thing is about physical health. The rapid side to side wrist motions are extremely bad for your hands and wrist.
This cannot be argued. This elitism has to have a boundary, and the health of your hands and wrist is a great place for that boundary.
On May 27 2017 23:14 ldv wrote: This is so pretentious.
Do people really think this? Kind of baffles me. I guess the really baffling thing is why would someone feel threatened that an older player really likes the way the game used to work, and is sad to see something deemed as important or unique sort of trampled upon. Do new players really feel like they need to remap hotkeys to play, and thus feel unwelcome by older players?
Here's Day9 talking about the sort of stuff Endymion is talking about:
What you're saying and what Day9 is saying is perfectly valid and reasonable and I agree! That's why no MBS, no infinite unit selection, etc. But the hotkey rebinding thing is about physical health. The rapid side to side wrist motions are extremely bad for your hands and wrist.
This cannot be argued. This elitism has to have a boundary, and the health of your hands and wrist is a great place for that boundary.
That's a stupid argument. Even though I'm in favor of rebinds, I'm not going to pretend like the fate of my wrist is in peril from not having keybinds. I mean, if your wrists hurt, literally just stop playing for a bit and get some rest. Just walk away from your computer.
On May 27 2017 23:14 ldv wrote: This is so pretentious.
Do people really think this? Kind of baffles me. I guess the really baffling thing is why would someone feel threatened that an older player really likes the way the game used to work, and is sad to see something deemed as important or unique sort of trampled upon. Do new players really feel like they need to remap hotkeys to play, and thus feel unwelcome by older players?
Here's Day9 talking about the sort of stuff Endymion is talking about:
What you're saying and what Day9 is saying is perfectly valid and reasonable and I agree! That's why no MBS, no infinite unit selection, etc. But the hotkey rebinding thing is about physical health. The rapid side to side wrist motions are extremely bad for your hands and wrist.
This cannot be argued. This elitism has to have a boundary, and the health of your hands and wrist is a great place for that boundary.
That's a stupid argument. Even though I'm in favor of rebinds, I'm not going to pretend like the fate of my wrist is in peril from not having keybinds. I mean, if your wrists hurt, literally just stop playing for a bit and get some rest. Just walk away from your computer.
Whatever you say. If you had >80 apm, you'd probably agree with me.
Actually I would agree with you Idv, except I took a page from Kawaiirice a long time ago and moved 1a2a3a to 4a5a6a (as in moved main army controls over a little). I'm pretty sure that forming an angle with your wrist is what hurts the wrist, not moving left to right rapidly. To hit 1a2a3a the left wrist has to be bent to the left very harshly. With 4a5a6a the wrist can sit more or less straight in line with the arm. Rapid left to right movement can be down with the arm itself, leaving the wrist joint more or less stable during left and right movements. But if you use 1a2a3a, and constantly tilt the wrist, this is horrible posture.
I would argue that letting players rebind hotkeys will result in some players sticking everything around QWER so they can continue to use 1a2a3a. This will let them keep their wrist in an aweful position without moving it at all. Joints are made to be moved, rapid movement left and right is good for joints. Joints need to sit in their natural alignment at rest, and have freedom to move in and out of more extreme angles. That's why when we sit in the car for long drives, or get off an airplane, we stand up and stretch out those poor joints.
The only way 1a2a3a is OK is if the player tilts the entire keyboard askew. Then the wrist can rest in a straight posture.
Edit: Also nina is a pretty old BW player from around here. Pretty sure she'd rock u in a 1v1 with way more than 80 apm...
my elitism has bounds, it's keeping broodwar the way it was made way back when and not making unnecessary changes that imo degrade the experience. most of my kr practice partners still only play on 1.16 too, albeit for different reasons, which is a stupid solution.. i just think it would be easier to keep the community together by keeping the game the same instead of even getting into arguments about what is impacting balance and what isn't impacting balance. like, the fact that they're not letting people change the vision hotkeys and ctrl groups is indicative that even they believe that the rebindings have a balance impact, they just feel like the other keys are more negligible. however, the fact that they don't have as much impact doesn't mean there isn't an impact at all, so they just shouldn't be there in the first place.
On May 28 2017 05:44 ninazerg wrote: hit f2, drag a box over larvae, hit "o"
On May 28 2017 05:16 ldv wrote:
On May 28 2017 02:11 CecilSunkure wrote:
On May 27 2017 23:14 ldv wrote: This is so pretentious.
Do people really think this? Kind of baffles me. I guess the really baffling thing is why would someone feel threatened that an older player really likes the way the game used to work, and is sad to see something deemed as important or unique sort of trampled upon. Do new players really feel like they need to remap hotkeys to play, and thus feel unwelcome by older players?
Here's Day9 talking about the sort of stuff Endymion is talking about:
What you're saying and what Day9 is saying is perfectly valid and reasonable and I agree! That's why no MBS, no infinite unit selection, etc. But the hotkey rebinding thing is about physical health. The rapid side to side wrist motions are extremely bad for your hands and wrist.
This cannot be argued. This elitism has to have a boundary, and the health of your hands and wrist is a great place for that boundary.
That's a stupid argument. Even though I'm in favor of rebinds, I'm not going to pretend like the fate of my wrist is in peril from not having keybinds. I mean, if your wrists hurt, literally just stop playing for a bit and get some rest. Just walk away from your computer.
Whatever you say. If you had >80 apm, you'd probably agree with me.
On May 28 2017 06:11 CecilSunkure wrote: Actually I would agree with you Idv, except I took a page from Kawaiirice a long time ago and moved 1a2a3a to 4a5a6a (as in moved main army controls over a little). I'm pretty sure that forming an angle with your wrist is what hurts the wrist, not moving left to right rapidly. To hit 1a2a3a the left wrist has to be bent to the left very harshly. With 4a5a6a the wrist can sit more or less straight in line with the arm. Rapid left to right movement can be down with the arm itself, leaving the wrist joint more or less stable during left and right movements. But if you use 1a2a3a, and constantly tilt the wrist, this is horrible posture.
I would argue that letting players rebind hotkeys will result in some players sticking everything around QWER so they can continue to use 1a2a3a. This will let them keep their wrist in an aweful position without moving it at all. Joints are made to be moved, rapid movement left and right is good for joints. Joints need to sit in their natural alignment at rest, and have freedom to move in and out of more extreme angles. That's why when we sit in the car for long drives, or get off an airplane, we stand up and stretch out those poor joints.
The only way 1a2a3a is OK is if the player tilts the entire keyboard askew. Then the wrist can rest in a straight posture.
Edit: Also nina is a pretty old BW player from around here. Pretty sure she'd rock u in a 1v1 with way more than 80 apm...
That is interesting and I might play around with the 3-7 army hotkeys.
Also it was stupid of me to make the comment about ninazerg, knowing absolutely nothing about her.
My apologies, ninazerg. But I think my argument is still valid, especially because I consider the only arguments against hotkey rebinding to be utterly nonsensical.
I don't like the rebinding of hot keys at all. Broodwar is incredible to watch as a spectator sport and I don't know if you and Day 9 are right that the nature of the games and builds might change, I hope not. But it is however undeniably making the game easier to rebind keys and as a result that makes it (however small the difference) slightly less impressive to watch.
I don't want future tournament winners having to face accusations of it been easier to do what they did than back when player X did it.
On May 28 2017 05:44 ninazerg wrote: hit f2, drag a box over larvae, hit "o"
On May 28 2017 05:16 ldv wrote:
On May 28 2017 02:11 CecilSunkure wrote:
On May 27 2017 23:14 ldv wrote: This is so pretentious.
Do people really think this? Kind of baffles me. I guess the really baffling thing is why would someone feel threatened that an older player really likes the way the game used to work, and is sad to see something deemed as important or unique sort of trampled upon. Do new players really feel like they need to remap hotkeys to play, and thus feel unwelcome by older players?
Here's Day9 talking about the sort of stuff Endymion is talking about:
What you're saying and what Day9 is saying is perfectly valid and reasonable and I agree! That's why no MBS, no infinite unit selection, etc. But the hotkey rebinding thing is about physical health. The rapid side to side wrist motions are extremely bad for your hands and wrist.
This cannot be argued. This elitism has to have a boundary, and the health of your hands and wrist is a great place for that boundary.
That's a stupid argument. Even though I'm in favor of rebinds, I'm not going to pretend like the fate of my wrist is in peril from not having keybinds. I mean, if your wrists hurt, literally just stop playing for a bit and get some rest. Just walk away from your computer.
Whatever you say. If you had >80 apm, you'd probably agree with me.
your responses are so silly and pretentious its impossible to even reason with you.
On May 28 2017 16:10 ETisME wrote: visual clarity difference and different aspect ratio that makes for wider FOV are ok?
again, if it was me i would say the changes are material, but i would rank them below input changes like hotkeys. I thought that they for sure weren't changing FOV/aspect ratio though?
On May 28 2017 15:53 Greg_J wrote: I don't want future tournament winners having to face accusations of it been easier to do what they did than back when player X did it.
yep, this is what i'm really anxious about too.. although for me personally not so much the pro scene since i play a lot more than i watch, i'm more worried about getting mad about losing and having an easy out saying "oh she just changed her hotkeys, if this was 1.16.1 i would have owned her" which is really not in the spirit of broodwar at all..
Being able to hit 4swhatever5swhatever6swhatever7swhatever is much more of a learning curve than whatever the key is. Change it to E and you'd probably miss it and hit R once or twice a game.
I can understand being salty about losing that unique extra little bit of difficulty, but I highly doubt it will compress skill levels much at all. There are so many much, much harder things than hitting key combos with far keys. I don't bat an eye at making overlords and I'm a D+ player.
Double-tapping O is the same mistake as double-tapping E. That doesn't change.
On May 28 2017 16:10 ETisME wrote: visual clarity difference and different aspect ratio that makes for wider FOV are ok?
again, if it was me i would say the changes are material, but i would rank them below input changes like hotkeys. I thought that they for sure weren't changing FOV/aspect ratio though?
On May 28 2017 15:53 Greg_J wrote: I don't want future tournament winners having to face accusations of it been easier to do what they did than back when player X did it.
yep, this is what i'm really anxious about too.. although for me personally not so much the pro scene since i play a lot more than i watch, i'm more worried about getting mad about losing and having an easy out saying "oh she just changed her hotkeys, if this was 1.16.1 i would have owned her" which is really not in the spirit of broodwar at all..
You have a wider FOV in 16 than BW classic. go to the terran one and you can see one more SCV to the left that previously cannot and the production facilities to the right.
On May 28 2017 05:44 ninazerg wrote: hit f2, drag a box over larvae, hit "o"
On May 28 2017 05:16 ldv wrote:
On May 28 2017 02:11 CecilSunkure wrote:
On May 27 2017 23:14 ldv wrote: This is so pretentious.
Do people really think this? Kind of baffles me. I guess the really baffling thing is why would someone feel threatened that an older player really likes the way the game used to work, and is sad to see something deemed as important or unique sort of trampled upon. Do new players really feel like they need to remap hotkeys to play, and thus feel unwelcome by older players?
Here's Day9 talking about the sort of stuff Endymion is talking about:
What you're saying and what Day9 is saying is perfectly valid and reasonable and I agree! That's why no MBS, no infinite unit selection, etc. But the hotkey rebinding thing is about physical health. The rapid side to side wrist motions are extremely bad for your hands and wrist.
This cannot be argued. This elitism has to have a boundary, and the health of your hands and wrist is a great place for that boundary.
That's a stupid argument. Even though I'm in favor of rebinds, I'm not going to pretend like the fate of my wrist is in peril from not having keybinds. I mean, if your wrists hurt, literally just stop playing for a bit and get some rest. Just walk away from your computer.
Whatever you say. If you had >80 apm, you'd probably agree with me.
your responses are so silly and pretentious its impossible to even reason with you.
This coming from, inarguably, the most elitist and pretentious member of the entire forum. I'm bamboozled. You also (unsurprisingly) seemed to miss the post where I rescinded my statement and said it was a stupid thing to say. But, nobody really expects you to read the content before throwing your attitude into the ring.
EPT
than BW classic. go to the terran one and you can see one more SCV to the left that previously cannot and the production facilities to the right.
