rebinding hotkeys in broodwar - Page 4
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
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SkrollK
France580 Posts
Why should I be banned ? I merely stated that what he said was kinda stupid, and it is : stating that all the people who are not against remastered hotkeys “just want things to be easy and instantaneous”… Then I just extended his argument, saying that basically using hotkeys in the first place (aka “shortcuts” : it means what it means…) instead of pure mouse clicking was already “want[ing] things to be easy and instantaneous”. So that even he falls into the category he just claims to be bad for the game. The comparison and extensive use of the word “gosu” was a mere tentative to sound like an old schooler puritain for the laugh (it has miserably failed apparently). You could oppose me the argument that “the game was designed this way in the first place so it should stay how it is”, but that argument is fallacious. The game was definitively designed this way (even tho that is debatable since all version have different hotkeys setups depending of the language you use…). BUT the game designers in NO WAY foresaw what would become of their game (aka greatest and hardest to master esport game ever made). So saying that changing that will even change the essence and core of the game… A majority of the people against the remastered hotkeys are against because they believe it could impact the balance of the game (in terms of MU) : that, I respect. That’s what I stated at the end of the post : MU should not be impacted by those changes. If they are, I think it MUST be removed. I happen to think it will not be. BW is mechanically so hard that putting marines production on A instead of M won’t turn a good player into a bad one and vice versa. But what seems to be a small part of the against are against because they think newbie and newcomers that want a little flexibility on the hotkeys should NOT be allowed to play, because changing hotkeys allocation will strip them of their skill. If you seriously believe that player A wins 100% of his games against player B now, and by allowing player B to change hotkeys it will turn the tide so that player B now wins 100% of his games against player A, then… It is laughable. | ||
Chef
10810 Posts
Then I just extended his argument Yeah, don't do that. You can morph any position in the world to the extreme and it will be a bad position, and it will not be the original position. "I think commerce is good and makes the world better" "So you like the slave trade?" I get that you're reacting to the ungentle "people just want things easy." But the spirit of that is not that we shouldn't have any conveniences, it's that a part of what makes BW special is its precise balance of mechanical difficulty, and upsetting that balance (saying nothing of race statistics) makes BW into a different game. Not even pros can do everything perfect, but even new players can move their whole army across the map. You also can't make up arguments for other people and then bat them down, like you're doing with "that's the way the game was designed." I think most BW fans accept the game as a massive fluke. And by that token, a lot of long time players who appreciate that idea don't particularly think messing with it is going to be a good thing. Better to accidentally have something perfect than to design something and be thwarted. Screwing up the design now could mess up BW's rise back into popular culture, so most BW fans, even if they aren't sure a change would be bad, take a conservative perspective because it ain't really broke as is ![]() That last paragraph is basically reiterating what the OP said, and it's how I feel. I can't actually speak for Th1rdEye, but I can speak kind of generally about the experience of people who played the heck out of BW. Very few BW players really lamented the hotkeys, and those that did just changed them behind the scenes and played casually, which didn't really upset many people either. Making it the standard though, that's controversial for a good reason. Some people really don't care about being able to miss 'o' in a battle, other people think it's an integral part of the BW experience. My personal ambivalence about it is that I care about the health of professional players, and I think it might be worth sacrificing this part of the game that I genuinely like if it means less injuries among players I like. But I also don't know if that's more the mouse hand or something else, or if changing hotkeys would really even do much. | ||
404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On May 29 2017 02:42 Endymion wrote: jaedong could also probably go 50-0 against iccup d players without a monitor, does that mean having a monitor doesn't influence balance? Right, you lost all your rights to be taken seriously with this comment for me ^^. Its a stupid comment that makes no fucking sense. What are you trying to achieve with it or do you want to look like a moron on purpose? Comparing sc2 tournament wins to "playing against d players" makes you look like an arrogant ass. What is that supposed to achieve? Like I would change my mind and go: " Oh well yes, playing with custom hotkeys is as devastating for my enemy as if he would have no monitor at all." I am w8ing for all of these teamliquid/reddit elitists who are fighting so vehemently to keep something this insignificant out of the game to go full pro and beat jeadong and flash when the remastered with custom hotkeys comes out. The "undeniable advantage" that's supposed to be this groundbreaking like playing against someone without a monitor should make it easy for you. See you in the next ASL finals in Korea endymion! On June 01 2017 20:52 SkrollK wrote: But what seems to be a small part of the against are against because they think newbie and newcomers that want a little flexibility on the hotkeys should NOT be allowed to play, because changing hotkeys allocation will strip them of their skill. I think this is what the discussion boils down to. Noone actually believes it will happen, but a minority of the BW community does not want to be newcomer friendly and want them to learn the "hard" way like they did. So they use "skill" as a vicious argument to justify outdated design and keep newbies away. If newcomers dont want to put up with this bullshit, they are "softies", "lazy" and "casual shits" and elitists have yet another reason to feed their superiority complex over any other game/player out there. EDIT: Btw like in your op, it is not MBS/automine/unlimited select that made SC2 the "inferior" game to BW. I don't understand why this OP even got featured, when it is all just slander and a rant without any evidence to back any statement up, especially something that is this subjective. Calling custom hotkeys the heart of BW is also fucking stupid. | ||
L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On June 02 2017 06:22 404AlphaSquad wrote: Right, you lost all your rights to be taken seriously with this comment for me ^^. Its a stupid comment that makes no fucking sense. What are you trying to achieve with it or do you want to look like a moron on purpose? Comparing sc2 tournament wins to "playing against d players" makes you look like an arrogant ass. What is that supposed to achieve? Like I would change my mind and go: " Oh well yes, playing with custom hotkeys is as devastating for my enemy as if he would have no monitor at all." I am w8ing for all of these teamliquid/reddit elitists who are fighting so vehemently to keep something this insignificant out of the game to go full pro and beat jeadong and flash when the remastered with custom hotkeys comes out. The "undeniable advantage" that's supposed to be this groundbreaking like playing against someone without a monitor should make it easy for you. See you in the next ASL finals in Korea endymion! I think this is what the discussion boils down to. Noone actually believes it will happen, but a minority of the BW community does not want to be newcomer friendly and want them to learn the "hard" way like they did. So they use "skill" as a vicious argument to justify outdated design and keep newbies away. If newcomers dont want to put up with this bullshit, they are "softies", "lazy" and "casual shits" and elitists have yet another reason to feed their superiority complex over any other game/player out there. EDIT: Btw like in your op, it is not MBS/automine/unlimited select that made SC2 the "inferior" game to BW. I don't understand why this OP even got featured, when it is all just slander and a rant without any evidence to back any statement up, especially something that is this subjective. Calling custom hotkeys the heart of BW is also fucking stupid. Ehm, he lays out premises and then goes on to derive conclusions from them. It's a logical argument. It sounds like you just don't agree with his initial premises. I am w8ing for all of these teamliquid/reddit elitists who are fighting so vehemently to keep something this insignificant out of the game to go full pro and beat jeadong and flash when the remastered with custom hotkeys comes out. The "undeniable advantage" that's supposed to be this groundbreaking like playing against someone without a monitor should make it easy for you. See you in the next ASL finals in Korea endymion! This is a ridiculously egregious straw-man. Absolutely nobody in this thread is asserting they will beat Flash or Jaedong with custom hotkeys allowed. and you know it. Btw like in your op, it is not MBS/automine/unlimited select that made SC2 the "inferior" game to BW. It is not the only reason, but it is certainly a significant component of why SC2 wasn't as enjoyable to play or watch, especially for people who appreciated the emphasis BW players on the "TS" part of RTS. | ||
404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On June 02 2017 07:57 L_Master wrote: This is a ridiculously egregious straw-man. Absolutely nobody in this thread is asserting they will beat Flash or Jaedong with custom hotkeys allowed. and you know it. Ofc it is ridiculous. It is equally ridiculous to suggest that customisable hotkeys affect balance as bad as playing against somebody without a monitor. On June 02 2017 07:57 L_Master wrote: It is not the only reason, but it is certainly a significant component of why SC2 wasn't as enjoyable to play or watch, especially for people who appreciated the emphasis BW players on the "TS" part of RTS. This is entirely subjective. I refuse to just settle with the mindset that sc2 was just bound to fail because it didn't blindly copy BW. A successful RTS doesn't hinge on having no MBS/automine/unlimited select and no customisable hotkeys. There are other ways to build a great RTS, even though ( It was clear from the get go (2007) that sc2 was gonna have these things and that it would focus on other aspects (sped up game-play etc.), which would make it by definition a different game from BW. This did not make it a failure before its release, and everyone who played BW should have known that the game would be vastly different and would require a different skillset. Now there are a lot of (subjective) reasons of why sc2 is actually not good in terms of design such as the economy system, pathing problems and lacking unit interactions. With each of these categories you could write an essay on why sc2 isn't satisfying to play. | ||
Moopower
127 Posts
Now we know how far mechanically progamers can go when it comes to multitasking,apm,etc. Now think of an analogy of BW being a musical score, where players have to hit the keys at the right times, so by letting people customize their own keys, that changes the musical score to what they are playing and could therefore play a much easier song to master than a much more complex due to the finger distance of the keys. I think that's what people that are against customizing hotkeys are getting at. When you are a progamer who is moving 350-400+ apm with fingers tapping their keyboards fast and furiously, you think that letting them compose their own key notes is not going to make a difference? I think it will. Progamers even look like they are playing the piano with their keyboard. If in BW we could select unlimited amount of units, which race do you think that will benefit the most? Obviously Zerg, then terran, and then Protoss. There isn't a progamer that fully maximizes a zerg army bc of limited hotkeys and the physical limitations of that, so it isn't much of a leap to compare and say to redefine the physical limitations of even shorter distances between keys or positions even if it improves a split second faster for certain actions, could definitely influence the balance. Also I can point out logically how redefining the hotkeys will affect balance, based on your own preferences. Here's a dialogue. Why do you guys want to redefine the hotkeys to w/e custom you want? -Your Answer: To make it easier on myself. If it is easier to redefine the hotkeys does that not imply that it makes your tasks much easier and therefore affect balance? (Premise being apm affects balance) And if you are saying you want customizable hotkeys just because you are used to another hotkey, than you can just learn the proper hotkeys, saying you are used to one hotkey isn't a good argument anyways when it could potentially harm the balance of the game. The risk is not worth the reward in this scenario, risk being the balance, and the reward being your convenience of learning the game which isn't so hard to learn the old hotkeys. -Your answer: Well everyone else can do it, so it's balanced! Well just because all races can have unlimited unit selection doesn't mean each race benefits equally from that same standpoint, therefore redefining hotkeys for everyone to customize doesn't necessarily benefit all races equally, because some are meant to be more mechanically taxing otherwise that race would be more OP. If blizzard wants to keep the spirit of keeping BW core values the same, they should not hamper with the hotkeys, because like my argument above I believe it can make an impact. Hotkeys I believe isn't such a big deal for new gamers but the reverse wouldn't be true. New gamers to BW can just learn, but to sacrifice possibly the balance of the game just to appease the new gamers is greedy of blizzard and short sighted imo. When you first learned of BW, I don't think anyone complained about any hotkeys, they just accepted the hotkeys and learned. I agree with the notion that balance in BW was a great fluke so the hotkeys in question shouldn't necessarily be considered the most optimal for balance. I can accept this as a valid argument, because I too believe this game isn't necessarily the most balanced it could be, it is merely the closest racial balance we accept, so if you can come up with a theory that makes a certain new hotkeys that everyone must follow to balance the races even further than before than I'm open for that, but for now, let's not fix what isn't broken, it is nearly perfect in balance, so unless you have something better in mind and can prove it, let's keep it the way it is. For those arguing that rehotkeys in SC2 didn't make a difference, I think it's a bad comparison to talk about SC2 rehotkeys with broodwar because sc2 is much less mechanically demanding with the MBS,etc. Unless Blizzard gets a lot of heat for making hotkeys customizable, I believe we are going to get this change whether we like it or not because the majority of fans aren't complaining enough. So if it comes to pass, I predict Protoss will fall off the map slightly more than they are now. Protoss are the least mechanically inclined race, they are the race that is less apm spam with keyboards and more of precision spells like storm, stasis, positioning,etc. For this reason I believe Protoss will be more of a disadvantage because their skill ceiling is slightly lower. You can even observe this in all the match ups. PvT is pretty even because both races have to have good positioning, and can't just mechanically spam their keyboard and win like zerg does. Now when it's ZvT, the roles are reversed and Terran is the one that can just mechanically spam and Zerg has to be more precise with their swarm, plague positioning, flanks,etc. ZvP you see protoss struggling because Zerg if they increase their apm ceiling a bit more, they can control more units a little better, they can overwhelm protoss, because protoss all they have is a big ball of units that can't really have much more return of investment of their apm time focused on their army vs a zerg army. You see zealots dying to lings more effectively, lings can be microed so much more than a zealot can ever hope to be microed. A ling's speed just increases their potential ceiling against zealots, bc of ling dps and microing away dmged lings with a fresh one in early game, and when it comes down to numbers, zealots have less in numbers so there is much less to micro and take adv of. In late game yes, lings become a pool of blood against zealot archon ht/reaver army. But I'd argue that is just inefficiency with the Zerg player, if they were microing their units to their max potential and tested their physical constraints/limits of how many zerg units they could control at a time, even if slightly to improve their speed and accuracy and flanking, or spreading out to dodge storms or splash dmg, zerg has more room to grow in a skill ceiling vs whereas protoss doesn't have that same opportunity of growth, all they can do is try to predict and position their units well. Think of this way as well, if you see a zerg player succumbing to zealot pressure that kills drones when lings were there to defend, do you think that progamer thought "wow that protoss player just outplayed me and I literally couldn't do anything!" OR do you think he's saying to himself "WHY didn't I MICRO my LINGS and DRONES BETTER?" He instinctively knows that zerg has room to micro and deal with zealots unless he got caught by surprise by a strategy he didn't expect which shame on him he should have all the scouting he could want early game with ol, lings, and then later scourge,etc. How does protoss lose almost every PvZ? They didn't position zealots to block ramp/choke point,etc. They didn't predict zerg's movements or strategy/drop or defend bases fast enough against cracklings. That's why again Protoss has to predict, anticipate, and position well, while zerg has the initiative almost all the time if the zerg isn't passive. | ||
-NegativeZero-
United States2140 Posts
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On June 02 2017 17:57 Moopower wrote:+ Show Spoiler + I would argue that it does make sense to believe that making hotkeys customizable is a step away from a core value of BW mechanics. At lower levels it would probably not make any significant difference with regards to racial balance, but what I think most people are arguing about is the top tier levels of play. Now we know how far mechanically progamers can go when it comes to multitasking,apm,etc. Now think of an analogy of BW being a musical score, where players have to hit the keys at the right times, so by letting people customize their own keys, that changes the musical score to what they are playing and could therefore play a much easier song to master than a much more complex due to the finger distance of the keys. I think that's what people that are against customizing hotkeys are getting at. When you are a progamer who is moving 350-400+ apm with fingers tapping their keyboards fast and furiously, you think that letting them compose their own key notes is not going to make a difference? I think it will. Progamers even look like they are playing the piano with their keyboard. If in BW we could select unlimited amount of units, which race do you think that will benefit the most? Obviously Zerg, then terran, and then Protoss. There isn't a progamer that fully maximizes a zerg army bc of limited hotkeys and the physical limitations of that, so it isn't much of a leap to compare and say to redefine the physical limitations of even shorter distances between keys or positions even if it improves a split second faster for certain actions, could definitely influence the balance. Also I can point out logically how redefining the hotkeys will affect balance, based on your own preferences. Here's a dialogue. Why do you guys want to redefine the hotkeys to w/e custom you want? -Your Answer: To make it easier on myself. If it is easier to redefine the hotkeys does that not imply that it makes your tasks much easier and therefore affect balance? (Premise being apm affects balance) And if you are saying you want customizable hotkeys just because you are used to another hotkey, than you can just learn the proper hotkeys, saying you are used to one hotkey isn't a good argument anyways when it could potentially harm the balance of the game. The risk is not worth the reward in this scenario, risk being the balance, and the reward being your convenience of learning the game which isn't so hard to learn the old hotkeys. -Your answer: Well everyone else can do it, so it's balanced! Well just because all races can have unlimited unit selection doesn't mean each race benefits equally from that same standpoint, therefore redefining hotkeys for everyone to customize doesn't necessarily benefit all races equally, because some are meant to be more mechanically taxing otherwise that race would be more OP. If blizzard wants to keep the spirit of keeping BW core values the same, they should not hamper with the hotkeys, because like my argument above I believe it can make an impact. Hotkeys I believe isn't such a big deal for new gamers but the reverse wouldn't be true. New gamers to BW can just learn, but to sacrifice possibly the balance of the game just to appease the new gamers is greedy of blizzard and short sighted imo. When you first learned of BW, I don't think anyone complained about any hotkeys, they just accepted the hotkeys and learned. I agree with the notion that balance in BW was a great fluke so the hotkeys in question shouldn't necessarily be considered the most optimal for balance. I can accept this as a valid argument, because I too believe this game isn't necessarily the most balanced it could be, it is merely the closest racial balance we accept, so if you can come up with a theory that makes a certain new hotkeys that everyone must follow to balance the races even further than before than I'm open for that, but for now, let's not fix what isn't broken, it is nearly perfect in balance, so unless you have something better in mind and can prove it, let's keep it the way it is. For those arguing that rehotkeys in SC2 didn't make a difference, I think it's a bad comparison to talk about SC2 rehotkeys with broodwar because sc2 is much less mechanically demanding with the MBS,etc. Unless Blizzard gets a lot of heat for making hotkeys customizable, I believe we are going to get this change whether we like it or not because the majority of fans aren't complaining enough. So if it comes to pass, I predict Protoss will fall off the map slightly more than they are now. Protoss are the least mechanically inclined race, they are the race that is less apm spam with keyboards and more of precision spells like storm, stasis, positioning,etc. For this reason I believe Protoss will be more of a disadvantage because their skill ceiling is slightly lower. You can even observe this in all the match ups. PvT is pretty even because both races have to have good positioning, and can't just mechanically spam their keyboard and win like zerg does. Now when it's ZvT, the roles are reversed and Terran is the one that can just mechanically spam and Zerg has to be more precise with their swarm, plague positioning, flanks,etc. ZvP you see protoss struggling because Zerg if they increase their apm ceiling a bit more, they can control more units a little better, they can overwhelm protoss, because protoss all they have is a big ball of units that can't really have much more return of investment of their apm time focused on their army vs a zerg army. You see zealots dying to lings more effectively, lings can be microed so much more than a zealot can ever hope to be microed. A ling's speed just increases their potential ceiling against zealots, bc of ling dps and microing away dmged lings with a fresh one in early game, and when it comes down to numbers, zealots have less in numbers so there is much less to micro and take adv of. In late game yes, lings become a pool of blood against zealot archon ht/reaver army. But I'd argue that is just inefficiency with the Zerg player, if they were microing their units to their max potential and tested their physical constraints/limits of how many zerg units they could control at a time, even if slightly to improve their speed and accuracy and flanking, or spreading out to dodge storms or splash dmg, zerg has more room to grow in a skill ceiling vs whereas protoss doesn't have that same opportunity of growth, all they can do is try to predict and position their units well. Think of this way as well, if you see a zerg player succumbing to zealot pressure that kills drones when lings were there to defend, do you think that progamer thought "wow that protoss player just outplayed me and I literally couldn't do anything!" OR do you think he's saying to himself "WHY didn't I MICRO my LINGS and DRONES BETTER?" He instinctively knows that zerg has room to micro and deal with zealots unless he got caught by surprise by a strategy he didn't expect which shame on him he should have all the scouting he could want early game with ol, lings, and then later scourge,etc. How does protoss lose almost every PvZ? They didn't position zealots to block ramp/choke point,etc. They didn't predict zerg's movements or strategy/drop or defend bases fast enough against cracklings. That's why again Protoss has to predict, anticipate, and position well, while zerg has the initiative almost all the time if the zerg isn't passive. Making an argument against customisable hotkeys because you are worried about the balance of the game by the top 1% of players is at least understandable/relateable and a discussion that is warranted. + Show Spoiler + However let me point out the following: -thus far, no conclusive evidence and thus no reason to believe that hotkeys will indeed affect balance. -no actual unit interaction will change in the game, making by theory the game not any different as it was before. -balance in BW is far from perfect anyways and balancing is mostly done through maps -so even if we go from the standpoint that it will have a very tiny effect on balance on the top 1% of the players (which I don't believe), it might not necessarily be bad. -the patch that made it possible to right click rally points, also did not make the game worse. Now I don't really want to actually discuss the possible impact of hotkeys on balance, because I don't think anyone on this forum is really on that level to fully grasp how much of an impact hotkeys have on this level anyways. However this is not the point of the OP and not what I am arguing against. The point the OP is trying to make is that the implementation of custom hotkeys is removing an aspect of skill, differentiation between players, and strategy from the game. and that BW hotkeys are the heart of the game (even though every region has its own set of hotkeys) And among the many poor arguments he provides to keep this archaic system is "Well I had to learn it, so new players should as well!", which is just an attitude I cant get behind. It is unnecessarily vicious to new players without reason other than "separating the wheat from the chaff" and to maintain the feeling of superiority towards players not willing put up with this bullshit.This sentence pretty much sums his rant up: On May 28 2017 20:47 Endymion wrote: I'm more worried about getting mad about losing and having an easy out saying "oh she just changed her hotkeys, if this was 1.16.1 i would have owned her" which is really not in the spirit of broodwar at all.. | ||
Moopower
127 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + However let me point out the following: -thus far, no conclusive evidence and thus no reason to believe that hotkeys will indeed affect balance. -no actual unit interaction will change in the game, making by theory the game not any different as it was before. -balance in BW is far from perfect anyways and balancing is mostly done through maps -so even if we go from the standpoint that it will have a very tiny effect on balance on the top 1% of the players (which I don't believe), it might not necessarily be bad. -the patch that made it possible to right click rally points, also did not make the game worse. Now I don't really want to actually discuss the possible impact of hotkeys on balance, because I don't think anyone on this forum is really on that level to fully grasp how much of an impact hotkeys have on this level anyways. However this is not the point of the OP and not what I am arguing against. The point the OP is trying to make is that the implementation of custom hotkeys is removing an aspect of skill, differentiation between players, and strategy from the game. and that BW hotkeys are the heart of the game (even though every region has its own set of hotkeys) And among the many poor arguments he provides to keep this archaic system is "Well I had to learn it, so new players should as well!", which is just an attitude I cant get behind. It is unnecessarily vicious to new players without reason other than "separating the wheat from the chaff" and to maintain the feeling of superiority towards players not willing put up with this bullshit.This sentence pretty much sums his rant up: On May 28 2017 20:47 Endymion wrote: I'm more worried about getting mad about losing and having an easy out saying "oh she just changed her hotkeys, if this was 1.16.1 i would have owned her" which is really not in the spirit of broodwar at all.. [/QUOTE] Of course there isn't sufficient evidence to say with 100% certainty that customizable hotkeys will affect racial balance, I was careful in stating that it COULD affect balance, not a definite. I've already took that into account, but I don't think it's correct to say it won't affect unit interaction. I'm assuming we're talking about all hotkeys like spells into account. So if that is accounted as part of the customization, then yes it can affect unit interaction. I think the argument saying that it removes an aspect of skill for being able to customize is a legitimate. Because if you can't hold everyone to the same standards of the keys they play, there could definitely be slight differences in how they came about in the game. I'm sure you heard about the butterfly effect. Something seemingly so insignificant could change the path of the future or in this case the game scenario. Let's say a player mistyped a hotkey, that led to not creating a certain unit, that could've killed an extra 2 units or changed the tide of an important battle, which made them lose focus on another aspect of the game, and then snowballed into another situation and so on and so on. In the case of a progamer, maybe he wouldn't normally mistype a hotkey, but maybe it took him 0.1 seconds longer to hit that key because it was harder to reach,etc, and that caused him to pay attention to something else because his attention span was now turned to something because of his ever so slightly delayed response, having to make split decisions on the fly or react to harassment,etc. It's hard to take all these into account and really separate them into testing variables. I don't particularly like discussing the butterfly effect because the concept while I understand it's importance in concept, it's not really applicable in practice, because how we would ever know what affected what? So while I admit there's no way to tell for sure what exactly will affect racial balance or skill differentials because that is subjective based on how someone likes to play or their natural strengths to reach further or hit certain key positions easier,etc we all have different strengths and weaknesses but at least if we hold everyone to the same standard of keys, it makes the variables less chaotic. You could though make a good argument saying that customizing hotkeys is comparable to customized keyboard and mouse. Having a slight edge because you are more comfortable with your customized mouse size/pad vs your opponent is legitimate at higher levels of play. So then if you agree with being able to customize your mouse and keyboard, then I guess you'd have to say customizing hotkeys isn't much different. Otherwise you'd also have to question customizing mouse and keyboards as well. It is definitely a gray area, because sports do give advantage for people who have certain qualities, like being tall,etc for starcraft it is having fast, precise hands that have good reach,etc. So where exactly do we draw the line? | ||
L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On June 02 2017 08:50 404AlphaSquad wrote: Ofc it is ridiculous. It is equally ridiculous to suggest that customisable hotkeys affect balance as bad as playing against somebody without a monitor. This is entirely subjective. I refuse to just settle with the mindset that sc2 was just bound to fail because it didn't blindly copy BW. A successful RTS doesn't hinge on having no MBS/automine/unlimited select and no customisable hotkeys. There are other ways to build a great RTS, even though ( It was clear from the get go (2007) that sc2 was gonna have these things and that it would focus on other aspects (sped up game-play etc.), which would make it by definition a different game from BW. This did not make it a failure before its release, and everyone who played BW should have known that the game would be vastly different and would require a different skillset. Now there are a lot of (subjective) reasons of why sc2 is actually not good in terms of design such as the economy system, pathing problems and lacking unit interactions. With each of these categories you could write an essay on why sc2 isn't satisfying to play. I don't think he was saying that, but it was a bad argument from him in response to an argument from you which was "Hotkeys don't affect balance, period". THat isn't a very good, or likely scenario either. Hotkeys are the inputs to the game, and changing them will have some alteration (regardless of how minor) on the gameplay. If you want to argue the effects on gameplay are insanely small, that's a reasonable argument. If you're going to say hotkeys have no effect on the game at all...that's a pretty difficult thing to imagine, it almost certainly exerts some effect. ___________________________________________________________________________________________ In terms of whether or not MBS/automine/etc. affected how good SC2 is; I agree it's subjective, and it's why I ended with the statement "especially for people who appreciated the "TS" part of RTS games". It's certainly possible to have different RTS games emphasizing different thing's that appeal to different people. So yes, I agree with you that SC2 wasn't destined to be inferior to BW simply because they chose to have automine, MBS, and smartcasting and I have no doubt you could make a great RTS with these features. However, if you're a hardcore BW player that is really into BW (i.e. most BW forum regulars) then it's likely there are certain features in an RTS you especially appreciated, two of which are mechanical skill and emphasis upon strategic time decisions and prioritization of time. There is certainly an argument to be made that emphasizing these sorts of things is a good RTS design feature, and there is little doubt they have contributed to making BW a great game. While not having time decisions/mechanics emphasized to the same degree as BW doesn't mean an RTS can't be a good game, it's likely that if you're a serious BW player that type of RTS won't appeal to you; hence my agreement that it is a very subjective thing. | ||
Meta
United States6225 Posts
That said, I lean more towards IntoTheWow's opinion. It clearly will have an effect, and if top players remap the hotkeys for efficiency and take the time to readjust their muscle memory, it's not hard to imagine the slightest timing advantages giving way to the difference between wins and losses at least some of the time. If Zerg gets easier to play and Terran sees very little advantage from hotkey remapping, that might have an impact on the balance of the matchup as a whole. But we're talking about tiny fractions of a second difference. That works out to perhaps a few more eapm. I'm not convinced that this will be game-breaking or substantial. As far as accuracy is concerned, don't some players still take keys off of their keyboards to ensure higher accuracy anyway? If more people start playing as result, that could be considered a concession, however if the cost is minuscule or irrelevant then it would clearly be worth the change. But, crucially, I think Blizzard should monitor the effects of this change carefully and they should not hesitate to revert the change if the balance at the top levels of play is clearly and permanently changed. | ||
Endymion
United States3701 Posts
with this thought in mind, i hope that people can understand my statement of "i don't want to think less of my opponents because of this change." I said earlier in the thread that i had (and have) a lot of trouble hitting 'o' consistently during my macro cycles, so i stand to benefit a lot from this change. if it was 'e,' my macro in broodwar would be on par with jaedong/effort if not surpassing it given recent vods.. but that's bullshit to me. my problems as a player are my own, and that's part of this wacky journey that i have been on for the past like 20 years as a broodwar player... the deficiency defines part of who i am as a player, and it's threatened by this change for seemingly no reason... likewise, i don't want my opponents to be forced to give up that deficiency either. maybe i'm the fucking noobest macro zerg ever, but it means a LOT to me... i was talking to Cecil in PM, and I said something along the lines of: "this is so important to me that i think i will just play scbw until 1.16.1 inevitably dies, then i will never touch 1.18.x." I genuinely think it is a change in the game, and i do not appreciate it. Back to what i said in the first paragraph: each version appeals to someone specifically. so can we at least get an option to disable rebindable hotkeys in a lobby? or on a specific ladder? i really don't mean to insult anyone, i'm just very VERY defensive of 1.16.1 and it's all out of love and passion for 1.16.1, and it absolutely kills me to see it on the chopping block. | ||
404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On June 03 2017 11:15 Endymion wrote: I'm drunk, but please hear me out. Meta and I had a similar conversation about 5 years ago playing a zvt on some random-ass non-ladder SC2 map. We're all the same, broodwar players, 1.18.x players, sc2 players. the only way that we differ is our slight preference for more accessibility for whatever reason it may be. I mean, no not really. Would you honestly play sc2 if it didn't have mbs/automine? I know I wouldn't. Claiming we differ only for preference of accessibility is not true. On June 03 2017 11:15 Endymion wrote: sc2 players (god help their souls) are defensive of auto mine and MBS. personally, i think it's degenerate and ABSOLUTELY kills the spirit of starcraft.. so who is right?? Meh, you are entitled to your opinion but I do not agree. those of you that have been around for a hot minute will remember a pretty infamous quote from Idra when he said (with regard to sc2) "why am i losing? i trained in korea for 2 years to be a better terran, i shouldn't be losing to scrubs in sc2." people thought that he was just being a prissy dick, but what he said really spoke to me. each game feeds a different audience, obviously, and idra was frustrated that sc2 didn't cater to his particular high apm high attention to detail skill set (and i share his frustrations, you couldn't pay me to pay sc2 past wings of liberty). I do not want to speak on IdrAs behalf, but as I said before already, Sc2 had and still has a ton of design problems, which made/makes the game really frustrating to play. I don't think IdrAs frustration was exclusively because of the easier user interface (if at all). I helped on Starbow and IdrA played that for a while giving mostly positive feedback, so I don't think the user interface was the biggest problem for him. So it leaves me with a different impression. And tbh IdrA was often frustrated in sc1, (ranting against protoss players). On that note I also want to point out a funny little personal observation of a trend of BW players. Every time I saw a BW player and friends of mine switch to Sc2 and even Sbow and go against experienced players: they just come in and expect to win everything right of the bad, because they played the "elite superior super hard-core no newb allowed ultimate Brood fucking War". But as soon as they lose in their first game, they start taking the loss personally and start shouting like little crybabies : "i was fucking c+ in BW, how can I lose. They just added a ton of stupid gimmicks in the game. This game is stupid". They just expect to win in a game they never played before, right off the bad against experienced players, because they think they are the superior ultimate RTS-gamers and anything less than winning the game would be an affront to their ego and superiority. no mbs/unlimited select/ automining make the game be based around certain positioning strategies that you lose entirely upon removing those constraints and day 9 actually defended those when talking about bw. Those kind of tactics and skills cannot be carried over to sc2 which makes it frustrating to BW players. So they just start shouting; "if you would have to select only 12 units at a time, I would beat you". with this thought in mind, i hope that people can understand my statement of "i don't want to think less of my opponents because of this change." This statement just really rubs me the wrong way. Do you think of sc2 players as "lesser players"? Do you think everyone who tries out SC:R due to customisable hotkeys are "lesser players" and "degenerate", especially if they are glad not having to put up with this archaic system? If they beat you in 1.18.x/SC:R, will you dwell on "well on 1.16.1 they wouldn't have had a chance"? Even though it shows how much you still have to/can improve as a player without taking into account original hotkeys. Does it make you feel more special if you beat someone in 1.16? Will you feel less depressed about losing in 1.16 than in 1.18? I said earlier in the thread that i had (and have) a lot of trouble hitting 'o' consistently during my macro cycles, so i stand to benefit a lot from this change. if it was 'e,' my macro in broodwar would be on par with jaedong/effort if not surpassing it given recent vods.. but that's bullshit to me. my problems as a player are my own, and that's part of this wacky journey that i have been on for the past like 20 years as a broodwar player... the deficiency defines part of who i am as a player, and it's threatened by this change for seemingly no reason... likewise, i don't want my opponents to be forced to give up that deficiency either. maybe i'm the fucking noobest macro zerg ever, but it means a LOT to me... i was talking to Cecil in PM, and I said something along the lines of: "this is so important to me that i think i will just play scbw until 1.16.1 inevitably dies, then i will never touch 1.18.x." I genuinely think it is a change in the game, and i do not appreciate it. Back to what i said in the first paragraph: each version appeals to someone specifically. so can we at least get an option to disable rebindable hotkeys in a lobby? or on a specific ladder? i really don't mean to insult anyone, i'm just very VERY defensive of 1.16.1 and it's all out of love and passion for 1.16.1, and it absolutely kills me to see it on the chopping block You can already rebind hotkeys on a lot of keyboards these days. I am sure you have faced people playing with custom hotkeys already, even though it might be technically still considered cheating. Did you notice a difference? Could you exactly tell who was using it? Probably not, so why make a big fuss about it when you are going to face such players on a regular basis now. If you like the extra-difficulty as a BW player to play with the original hotkeys, you can still do that you know. Nobody forces you to switch. Or don't you want to do that because the "lesser people" would have an "unfair advantage" and you will blame every loss on that? It really makes you look petty and miserable. As for the extra options. I think you and I know that those wont be implemented in the game, for the better or the worse. | ||
CursOr
United States6335 Posts
Maybe I am wrong, of course, but if I had to lay a guess out there about what rebinding will do to the game, balance wise, this is it. I think it will aid Terran disproportionately. | ||
nanaoei
3358 Posts
On June 04 2017 00:53 CursOr wrote: I am guessing that the rebinding will affect the balance, especially at casual levels. Arguably, of course, Terran has a slight upper hand in BW. I'm guessing that re rebinding will make terran, specifically mech, much easier to play. One of the hardest parts about playing mech right now is laying mine fields and sieging/unsieging quickly because those keys are I and U. I suspect binding both those to "E" or something "R" or something super easy will become very popular and ladder will be rampant with meching Terrans. I know this wasn't much of an obstacle for the top Terrans, ofc, but being that mech is viable in all matchups, and will be significantly easier to play with the rebind, I am guessing we will see a huge balance shift for most casual players (D/C) Maybe I am wrong, of course, but if I had to lay a guess out there about what rebinding will do to the game, balance wise, this is it. I think it will aid Terran disproportionately. "O" and "I" are next to each other for sieging and mines respectively. i don't think it's much of a difference regardless, but i'd see your case if the player had to hit keys on opposite sides of the keyboard (for their army control). people made the same sort of argument, mechanical vs non-mechanical when the mechanical keyboards first emerged on the market. all i can say is merely placebo. same with ingame skins and cosmetics, they make you play better if you're in the mindset to believe (and keep believing) that they do. i can't articulate this properly, but i feel a lot of gamers make these arguments about their preference for their own piece of mind or to show the world that they know what they're talking about when it comes to something that could be almost entirely subjective. in other phrasing, it's unfounded elitism. when it comes to idra, i think it's a simple case of relieving stress or frustration experienced in the games. what do people do in team games? look out for mistakes and blame teammates. this is considered toxic behavior because it's not actually constructive and it doesn't solve the problems with the team to enable a win later down the road. what do people do in 1:1 games like starcraft? balance whine, whether it's relevant or not. it doesn't necessarily make that person bad and it can be seen as completely human, but it's undisputable that it normally doesn't make the situation better for anybody but the person themselves. i think *this* is actually off the wall and misleading, and it doesn't matter who is saying it: On June 03 2017 11:15 Endymion wrote: I said earlier in the thread that i had (and have) a lot of trouble hitting 'o' consistently during my macro cycles, so i stand to benefit a lot from this change. if it was 'e,' my macro in broodwar would be on par with jaedong/effort if not surpassing it given recent vods... you are not saying that you would do as well/better given the same pressure and same level of opponent, you are saying that in a good or ideal game for yourself, you could match a top level pro in one aspect, simply. and while you're figuring out what you're saying all this for, which i admire the passion for, i think most of the arguments that can ever be made have been exhausted for this moment and it's a matter of how/how not to implement the feature. all i can really say is, time to let go. it's a smaller deal than you think. really and seriously no matter how seriously you take it, it's a game at the end of the day. in the worst case scenario you quit playing the game with the rest of the world and maybe commit to a FISH account to play solely on that server with likeminded people, but even that has its positives. | ||
CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On June 03 2017 20:12 404AlphaSquad wrote: I mean, no not really. Would you honestly play sc2 if it didn't have mbs/automine? I know I wouldn't. Claiming we differ only for preference of accessibility is not true. Implying that mbs/automine are preferences of accessibility is pigeonholing some important design decisions. Don't do that. It's clear you don't respect these ideas as intelligent and valuable decisions, at least with your posts here. On June 03 2017 20:12 404AlphaSquad wrote: On that note I also want to point out a funny little personal observation of a trend of BW players. Every time I saw a BW player and friends of mine switch to Sc2 ... snip Here's a point I think would be really valuable for you: BW players really like the mechanical aspects. Things like wacky walloffs, odd unit behaviors, wacky pathfinding, limited unit selection, hard-coded hotkeys, etc. They really like these things for a lot of valid reasons. When a game developer releases a sequel, generally the goal is to take the sequel, identify the core sources of joy from the original, and expand upon this core in a new light. What these players are expressing is generally not elitism in the sense of casting superiority onto new SC2 players. They are expressing a distaste and unmet expectations. SC2 did not respect BW in any way. If we go back and look at Dustin Browder's comments about BW, he completely ignores BW. Lets list some interviews.
So when players like Endymion come along and see a similar philosophy that existed in the development of SC2, now applied to SC:R, they will be pretty angry. They have a right to be angry, and their anger carries a lot of merit. The points I've made here can also be extended to the map editor of SC2. When it was released, it was a hot mess. Completely different than the BW editor, and way harder to use. It didn't carry any of the valuable aspects of the BW editor. The BW editor was the tool that enabled the BW community to balance the game over the course of time. The editor itself allowed BW to become an ESport. In similar fashion BNet 2.0 was a giant failure. Why? The same fundamental problem: the SC2 team did not respect BW. They instead of reflecting on BW to carefully craft a new product, they tried to start fresh and make something different. BNet 2.0 didn't have fucking chat channels. How the hell does that even happen? lmao. BNet 2.0 gets me so flustered I even have trouble writing down a good argument. In all the fundamental problem with SC2 across the board is that the development team did not play BW. They did not really like BW. They didn't respect BW. Hardly any of the developers worked on BW. None of the top leaders from BW development were left at Blizzard. These developers came from a background of World of Warcraft/WC3, and Browder himself came from Command Conquer (which is widely renowned for it's shitty competitive balance). Hopefully you find this post a little enlightening, and can at least understanding the PoV of many BW players. They had expectations that SC2 would expand on BW, rather than do it's own weird thing. It's completely possible for a sequel to really hit the nail on the head. Consider these examples:
These games are widely regarded as extremely good sequels. The thing is that Japanese game designers are really fucking good at respecting their elders, heritage, and in general the past. When they make a sequel they are capable of making some really fucking good sequels. But we also see Diablo 1 and 2 listed in there. Basically everyone that likes one of those games is also fond of the other. Why is that? I can tell you, a lot of the core developers on BW also worked on D1, and some carried over to D2. Good sequels arise from really good developers. My argument boils down to this: 1. Good sequels come from good developers 2. BW fans in general, more or less unanimously dislike SC2 3. But, many other games have sequels that fans really enjoyed (see above list) 4. Therefor, SC2 design failed to make a good sequel 5. To support 4, we can look at a bunch of old Browder posts to find that he's really just incompetent for the job Actually let me add on a point 6. talking about why they did all these. They did it to make money. There was a lot of hype around BW and the concept of ESports. Blizzard wanted to make profit. BW was not profitable at it's current state for Blizzard. So they used profits as a goal to dismantle Kespa and the Korean BW scene and tried to supplant a new system that would funnel money to Blizzard. That was the goal, and they tunnel visioned that goal really hard. In any case, when we come along as see older players like Endymion, they may not be able to fully express why they have these vast unmet expectations, or why they have distaste to some of SC:R development, but it does not mean their opinions are without merit. On June 03 2017 20:12 404AlphaSquad wrote: This statement just really rubs me the wrong way. Do you think of sc2 players as "lesser players"? In a word: yeah. To expand... SC2 lacked mechanisms for a "better" player to win vs a "lesser player". Defining better and lesser is highly subjective from person to person. However, for BW players better and lesser are clearly defined by winning and losing in BW. Since SC2 is a sequel, and these BW players had exceptions of a good sequel, not a fucking shitty one, obviously they will want to beat players that would be bad at BW. It's a natural and valid expectation. So in the realm of BW, they are actually lesser players. It's not really elitism kicking in, it's unmet expectations. | ||
lestye
United States4135 Posts
They have an incredibly low bar for a sequel compared to define a successful sequel. | ||
CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
Exactly why they sold so many copies, and remained loved by players in general, doesn't really have to do with casually playing them and putting them on shelves. To me it just sounds like you yourself are one of those Western players without much attachment (for the games in the examples), and assume your position is more important/relevant than it is when talking about the grand scheme of things. BW didn't form an ESport and carry on for decades because of those "low bar" players you brought up. SC2 didn't spawn because the vast majority of players had some kind of low expectation. We're talking about what made BW great, and what makes sequels great. Specifically on the context of defending posters like Endymion. How do these campaign players even matter? It's not like they are here on TL posting in these kinds of threads. Those people aren't here. | ||
lestye
United States4135 Posts
On June 04 2017 03:59 CecilSunkure wrote: What? lol. There are a lot of very hardcore fans for all those games... Like to point of a cult following. And those fans rather love those sequels. Sure, lots of Westerners play those games and put them back on the shelf without much attachment. But it's sort of irrelevant? Those games were all really successful because they sold a lot of copies, and each sequel sold a lot of copies. Exactly why they sold so many copies, and remained loved by players in general, doesn't really have to do with casually playing them and putting them on shelves. To me it just sounds like you yourself are one of those Western players without much attachment (for the games in the examples), and assume your position is more important/relevant than it is when talking about the grand scheme of things. BW didn't form an ESport and carry on for decades because of those "low bar" players you brought up. SC2 didn't spawn because the vast majority of players had some kind of low expectation. We're talking about what made BW great, and what makes sequels great. Specifically on the context of defending posters like Endymion. How do these campaign players even matter? It's not like they are here on TL posting in these kinds of threads. Those people aren't here. And SC2 didn't sell a lot of copies? My point was a great pokemon isn't going to be held to the same standard a great rts game is going to need to because they only have to keep you occupied for a certain amount of hours, exploration and things to do on the side is a more important aspect than the actual gameplay interaction itself. Especially when balance, unit interaction, and asymmetrical design come into play, they're not even comparable. "BW didn't form an ESport and carry on for decades because of those "low bar" players you brought up" That's why none of those games come even close to the same standard we're talking about here. There aren't people playing competitive Pokemon in Gen 1 and Gen 2 5 years after the next gen came out. "How do these campaign players even matter? It's not like they are here on TL posting in these kinds of threads. Those people aren't here." Because you're bringing games that are only played for the campaign in a discussion about making a good sequel. I think comparing COMPETITIVE titles would be far more relevant here. | ||
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