EPTThe Io Arcana is bad for Dota - Page 2
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ahw
Canada1099 Posts
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FreakyDroid
Macedonia2616 Posts
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Jelissei
193 Posts
Most people don't know how they get manipulated. The more often people get manipulated the more it seems like free will - when it isn't. | ||
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Spicy_Curry
United States10573 Posts
On May 24 2017 22:32 Jelissei wrote: Well, it gets weird in my opinion when they use proven methods of manipulating people into buying stuff. Most people don't know how they get manipulated. The more often people get manipulated the more it seems like free will - when it isn't. What does this even mean? Every time you watch an advertisement on TV is that suddenly weird? That is a proven method of manipulating people into buying shit. | ||
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
Without realising it, we are kept very safe from being overly manipulated by the people who have power over us. There is regulation in pharmaceuticals, regulation in foodstuffs, alcohol, tenancy agreements, all the way through to the regulation of household goods such as the materials we get in our clothing, pollution control on production, labeling standards and, of course, a myriad of advertising standards. Alcohol, for instance: + Show Spoiler + In television advertising, you cannot link the consumption of alcohol to enhanced physical performance, create the impression that consumption contributes towards sexual success or is a means of resolving personal conflicts, and you cannot place emphasis on high alcoholic content as being a positive quality of the product. Digital products allow for an endless variety of little marketing tricks that aren't as easy to pull off in the non-digital world. Valve doesn't have to physically re-stock its stores, or manufacture materials, or change shop signage or labeling across an entire country, like, say, a clothing store needs to. If Valve wants to manipulate you, it can do so with the click of a few buttons. And this doesn't relate to 'just' cosmetics. I'm talking maps, minigames, sounds, taunts, emoticons - whatever digital products there are: a whole world of new ways to exploit the consumer has now opened up to Valve, and, unlike other markets, it is completely unregulated. Or, rather, it is something that Valve regulates, and you should be very, very aware of that. Here is a copy of a larger response that I made: This is following on from the discussion surrounding the manipulative techniques Valve use on us. For example the 'fake release' of a single-style Juggernaut arcana, and the introduction of the untradeable and prohibitively-priced Io arcana. A user responded to the debate, saying, 'Everything you see is using manipulation to try to exploit you. Every product, every advertisement on TV.' Another user said, 'If Valve is trying to manipulate me into wanting something I already want, that's fine by me!' This is my response. Without realising it, we are kept very safe from being overly-manipulated by the people who have power over us. There is regulation in pharmaceuticals, regulation in foodstuffs, alcohol, tenancy agreements, phone tariffs, all the way through to the regulation of household goods such as the materials we get in our clothing, pollution control on production, labeling standards and, of course, a myriad of advertising standards. However, unlike with foodstuffs or clothing, *digital products* allow for a range of marketing tricks that aren't possible in the non-digital world. Valve doesn't have to physically re-stock its stores, or manufacture materials, or change shop signage or labeling across an entire country, like a clothing store needs to. If Valve wants to manipulate you, it can do so with the click of a few buttons. And this doesn't relate only to digital cosmetics, such as the Juggernaut arcana. I'm talking maps, minigames, sounds, taunts, emoticons - whatever digital products there are: a whole world of new ways to exploit the consumer has been opened up to Valve, and, unlike other markets, it is completely unregulated. It has its own set of rules, and, right now, Valve is the one making them. Let me talk you through this in a bullet-point fashion... 1. Regulation exists in almost all fields, whether we notice it or not, to protect us from unreasonable exploitation. 1. There are guidelines designed to protect the consumer from a) unreasonable inflation of prices for a product that a consumer is socially invested in (this happened with phone tariffs during the early years of mobile phones, until our governments stepped in). This relates to the Io arcana. 2. There are regulatory standards that prohibit a company from unfairly exploiting consumers with misleading marketing, such as staging the release of a substandard product in order to re-release the product two days later to garner undue customer appreciation and support. This relates to the Juggernaut arcana. 3. Marketing standards and regulation in digital products is a very new and unexplored field compared to marketing standards and regulation in non-digital products, due to the fact that digital products can be very rapidly altered, re-stocked and re-labelled. 4. Because of this, we need to be aware that, when it comes to digital products and Valve, no one is looking out for us like they usually are. You are vulnerable, and you are open to being exploited in ways that are new, effective and yet to be regulated. | ||
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Jelissei
193 Posts
On May 25 2017 18:02 Spicy_Curry wrote: What does this even mean? Every time you watch an advertisement on TV is that suddenly weird? That is a proven method of manipulating people into buying shit. To the reply of FFGenerations I would add that yes, advertisement on TV is weird. It makes a product into a lifestyle. I find this extremely weird and I'm always surprised that people buy into this bs. But I do know, that I probably buy into this bs as well without realising it. But I stopped watching TV because of it (and because of bad TV shows in Germany). I don't like companies telling me what values are good for humanity. And I would go as far as to say that to not realise that's exactly what they do without anybody noticing is dangerous. We change our behaviour according to the wishes of companies that only have their own interests in mind - again: without realising it. We even say things like: "If they manipulate me into buying things I want anyway, that's cool with me" "I want anyway".... yeah right | ||
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Aznupdown
Canada318 Posts
On May 25 2017 21:52 FFGenerations wrote: @Spicy_Curry Without realising it, we are kept very safe from being overly manipulated by the people who have power over us. There is regulation in pharmaceuticals, regulation in foodstuffs, alcohol, tenancy agreements, all the way through to the regulation of household goods such as the materials we get in our clothing, pollution control on production, labeling standards and, of course, a myriad of advertising standards. Alcohol, for instance: + Show Spoiler + In television advertising, you cannot link the consumption of alcohol to enhanced physical performance, create the impression that consumption contributes towards sexual success or is a means of resolving personal conflicts, and you cannot place emphasis on high alcoholic content as being a positive quality of the product. Digital products allow for an endless variety of little marketing tricks that aren't as easy to pull off in the non-digital world. Valve doesn't have to physically re-stock its stores, or manufacture materials, or change shop signage or labeling across an entire country, like, say, a clothing store needs to. If Valve wants to manipulate you, it can do so with the click of a few buttons. And this doesn't relate to 'just' cosmetics. I'm talking maps, minigames, sounds, taunts, emoticons - whatever digital products there are: a whole world of new ways to exploit the consumer has now opened up to Valve, and, unlike other markets, it is completely unregulated. Or, rather, it is something that Valve regulates, and you should be very, very aware of that. Here is a copy of a larger response that I made: This is following on from the discussion surrounding the manipulative techniques Valve use on us. For example the 'fake release' of a single-style Juggernaut arcana, and the introduction of the untradeable and prohibitively-priced Io arcana. A user responded to the debate, saying, 'Everything you see is using manipulation to try to exploit you. Every product, every advertisement on TV.' Another user said, 'If Valve is trying to manipulate me into wanting something I already want, that's fine by me!' This is my response. Without realising it, we are kept very safe from being overly-manipulated by the people who have power over us. There is regulation in pharmaceuticals, regulation in foodstuffs, alcohol, tenancy agreements, phone tariffs, all the way through to the regulation of household goods such as the materials we get in our clothing, pollution control on production, labeling standards and, of course, a myriad of advertising standards. However, unlike with foodstuffs or clothing, *digital products* allow for a range of marketing tricks that aren't possible in the non-digital world. Valve doesn't have to physically re-stock its stores, or manufacture materials, or change shop signage or labeling across an entire country, like a clothing store needs to. If Valve wants to manipulate you, it can do so with the click of a few buttons. And this doesn't relate only to digital cosmetics, such as the Juggernaut arcana. I'm talking maps, minigames, sounds, taunts, emoticons - whatever digital products there are: a whole world of new ways to exploit the consumer has been opened up to Valve, and, unlike other markets, it is completely unregulated. It has its own set of rules, and, right now, Valve is the one making them. Let me talk you through this in a bullet-point fashion... 1. Regulation exists in almost all fields, whether we notice it or not, to protect us from unreasonable exploitation. 1. There are guidelines designed to protect the consumer from a) unreasonable inflation of prices for a product that a consumer is socially invested in (this happened with phone tariffs during the early years of mobile phones, until our governments stepped in). This relates to the Io arcana. 2. There are regulatory standards that prohibit a company from unfairly exploiting consumers with misleading marketing, such as staging the release of a substandard product in order to re-release the product two days later to garner undue customer appreciation and support. This relates to the Juggernaut arcana. 3. Marketing standards and regulation in digital products is a very new and unexplored field compared to marketing standards and regulation in non-digital products, due to the fact that digital products can be very rapidly altered, re-stocked and re-labelled. 4. Because of this, we need to be aware that, when it comes to digital products and Valve, no one is looking out for us like they usually are. You are vulnerable, and you are open to being exploited in ways that are new, effective and yet to be regulated. You know you just compared everyday necessities to a digital picture right? Regulations for pharmaceuticals/food/alcohol/pollution/housing etc all affects our very being of living. Obviously you would need regulations for these. | ||
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
On May 24 2017 21:37 FreakyDroid wrote: I dont share your opinion. As far as Im concerned, they can sell the arcana at any price they want, same goes for everything in the game as long as it doesnt give an advantage aka P2W. The Io arcana is (if you didn't realise) just a small part of the broader picture in terms of how our approach should be, in my opinion, towards Valve's business practices... Valve has a monopoly, and there is no external regulation on how they behave. They will continue to find ways to exploit their market whilst being praised and thought of as a friend. All we can do is continue to try to educate people about false advertising of nonfunctional features in arcanas, deliberate fixing of currency exchange rates, purposeful misleading of consumers with false-start product releases (the red style of jug arcana), the complaints of artists regarding exploitation https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/62991t/the_dota_2_workshop_and_its_ecosystem_are_dying/ and so on. All we can do is educate one another and try to minimise the extent that we allow ourselves to be exploited.... not because we are greedy or crybabies or feel like we are owed something, but simply because we care about one another's wellbeing. It's a free game, and it's a free world, but that doesn't mean other people don't have power over you, and it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to protect one another from unreasonable misuse of that power. | ||
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PoulsenB
Poland7711 Posts
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Jelissei
193 Posts
While it used to be, that you owned a game you bought, today you only buy a license to play the game. You knew what you got, when you paid your money - basically. Advertising was of course a thing back then too. But it takes on forms that are really scary if you look at it closely. As a consumer we don't realise any more if we want something, because we saw it in an add and then want it... or because we played a game with hidden incentives to buy lots of stuff we didn't want, but now want. Of course Valve needs to earn money. That's not the question at stake here. It's the way they bring people to pay more, than they actually wanted to pay in the beginning. You know, if Valve uses patterns we know from gambling or drugs to make people 'addicted' to their selling point, I don't feel good about it. | ||
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Jisira
470 Posts
There are several points here that get intertwined, such as; are the current market rules valid in the growing micro-transaction economy? How well are the creators getting reimbursed? And, why did Valve release an Arcana for USD 110 rather than USD 30 as per usual? The only valid one for discussion should be the first two. I don't want to pay for anything if I don't have to, and if this is regarding the unfairness of the pricing of a few pixels which has very little impact on anyone's life then the discussion is irrelevant. A company making a game that is free with the only financial alteration of gameplay being cosmetic, how is that bad? It's a free game if you want it to be. | ||
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Jelissei
193 Posts
I believe you when you say you make the decision. I want to believe it about myself as well. Though reading about the topic made me question my certainty. Either way, we seem old enough to deal with that. But what if you grow up in a world where the structure of the virtual reality (Steam, Dota 2, Hearthstone, ...) is out for your money? You can only hope those children will have good parents showing them other parts of the Internet and the real world! | ||
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Jisira
470 Posts
How is DotA out for your money more than any other business? I can walk into a store and not buy anything. The best thing about growing up in the digital world is the advertising immunity that builds up from being online. | ||
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Aznupdown
Canada318 Posts
On May 29 2017 23:40 Jelissei wrote: How old are you, if I might ask? I believe you when you say you make the decision. I want to believe it about myself as well. Though reading about the topic made me question my certainty. Either way, we seem old enough to deal with that. But what if you grow up in a world where the structure of the virtual reality (Steam, Dota 2, Hearthstone, ...) is out for your money? You can only hope those children will have good parents showing them other parts of the Internet and the real world! How do you compare Dota 2, a free to play game that does not have a pay-to-win structure, to a game like Hearthstone, which is p2w as you would need the necessary cards? | ||
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Jelissei
193 Posts
But more importantly in both games (and more) the developer gives you incentives to spend money. How that is done in particular is not important for the argument we make. There are different methods of how to retrieve money from people who don't necessarily went into the game with the mindset to spend money. @Jisira: I mean that you are old enough. And maybe you were old enough when you were younger. I work in a school and I see a lot of kids who don't give a damn. You fail to see, that everybody else is not you. | ||
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Aznupdown
Canada318 Posts
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Jelissei
193 Posts
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Jisira
470 Posts
On May 30 2017 01:55 Jelissei wrote: @Jisira: I mean that you are old enough. And maybe you were old enough when you were younger. I work in a school and I see a lot of kids who don't give a damn. You fail to see, that everybody else is not you. I see a lot of people making poor decisions because they themselves can't comprehend the concept of moderation, or ramifications following poor decision-making. How they fail to realise that food is more important than an Arcana shouldn't be something that a company has to take into consideration when pricing a product. We can argue unfairness in the world, but in the case of pixels on a monitor that only alter cosmetic output and not player performance (as in, level playing field regardless of financial input) this should be regarded as personal problems that lie outside the business model of any company. Edit: If every company has to take addiction and poor decision-making into account, target the alcohol and tobacco companies first. | ||
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Jelissei
193 Posts
Alcohol is sadly very ingrained in our culture. But that's not even the point. I'm not even against drugs and I understand that companies won't themselves be considerate to their customers. They need an incentive. That may or may not be us - the customer. I would be happy if the personal problems would lie outside of the business model of any company. We argue, that companies take deliberate advantage of personal problems. They shape or structure (part of) their business model around the personal problems of their consumers. They even try create those personal problems. As a customer I want Valve to treat its customers better. If you don't care about that, because you know how to handle Valve, that's good for you. But I don't think most people are even aware how Valve is manipulating them. And of course that goes for a lot of commercials. The least we can do is educate. The best would be influencing Valves business decisions. Just saying: "I don't care, so you shouldn't." is a bit cheap don't you think? I really feel you should read a book about it, but I guess everybody got their own priorities. Sadly those are seldom the community one lives in. | ||
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PoulsenB
Poland7711 Posts
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