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Like so many said previously: Techies just changes the game to much. I was so pissed the day they announced techies. The main reason why i switched from wc3 DotA to DotA 2 was that there was no techies.
For the other heroes:
- Spec is fine, i guess, hard-carry in the most classical of ways. Hard to lane, easy to gank, unfair when farmed. No real problem there, i guess.
- WR feels a bit to strong atm. Windrun makes her really hard to gank and power shot lets her farm even when behind. Shakle shot combined with a blink is such a good disable and forces enemy carrys to farm ultra save.
- Considering pubs: Seems okay, didn't ran into problems there. In pro matches, he seems a little strong but maybe meta needs to adjust a little before we can tell.
- Doom buff seems a little over the top, hopefully it gets turned down a little.
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icefrog should try to bring back dota 1 shackle. it would weed the noobs out significantly
should never have made the aghs change too. wr was perfect as it was
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On October 14 2015 17:37 Laserist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2015 17:14 OuchyDathurts wrote:
I have a theory why shackle is so fucking broken but its hard to explain. That hero is retard proof though. Throw out shackle, did it hit? No? Wait 10 seconds and try again. Yes? Use R, free kill, go next. Its mindless to play. Actually shackle prioritize heroes over trees I assume or something like that, because I see some very retarded shackles even though a fcking tree just behind the target, it latches the hero a little bit back and not on the direct path of the spell. In teamfights it is very very easy to shackle 2 guy together and disable them for 4+ seconds, no risk. Aghs just broke the hero, it is very similar to alch with a more reliable insta-stun and max AS/full damage with 6k worth of items.
I know it prioritizes heroes. I'm talking about the angles it's willing to latch at.
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On October 14 2015 17:14 OuchyDathurts wrote:
I have a theory why shackle is so fucking broken but its hard to explain. That hero is retard proof though. Throw out shackle, did it hit? No? Wait 10 seconds and try again. Yes? Use R, free kill, go next. Its mindless to play.
I don't get why its a nearly 4 second stun with the power of her ult now. It just seems unnecessary. Back when people use to use it to line up dope power shots it was cool, but not its broken.
Or make it a snare and people can use items and spells. Then people could culling blade the tree and walk away.
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Russian Federation4050 Posts
Stopped reading after "As a techies picker". 1/5
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Northern Ireland22213 Posts
ya make it stun for like a second, then "leash" for the rest of the duration. like if two ppl are shackled together, they cant move too far apart or it'll pull them back together again and stun them. rofl i cud be icefrog 2.0
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On October 14 2015 23:42 ahswtini wrote:
ya make it stun for like a second, then "leash" for the rest of the duration. like if two ppl are shackled together, they cant move too far apart or it'll pull them back together again and stun them. rofl i cud be icefrog 2.0
What if WR "holds" the leash while the shackled targets stay inbound like they do know and couldn't attack at the same time (like batrider+timbersaw ulties). Maybe i am IF over 9000
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On October 14 2015 02:11 Rebs wrote:
Huge surge of gold? Its 200G extra gold at best per wave. Alliance was basically saying, //'Id be happy to hand you 200G every 30 secs if you can never push me./' Liquid was always stronger in team fights farm or no farm. The lineup was built to do crippling damage before a certain pt. It had no global presence or wave clear. It didnt do said damage and then they were always struggling.
The solution was to either build a lineup that can stop rat effectively or win before its too late (like game 2). The solution you are talking about isnt even a solution. Near the end Liquid was doing exactly what you were saying and it didnt matter because the sheer zerg was chip damaging them to death.
Its a surge in a relative term. What you must understand is when creep pushing in your base like that, [A] was also losing out on the potential income and experience they would often get from 3 lanes of creeps. Their only source of gold then would be the jungle and rosh which is relatively small (and harder, slower to get as you have to move between camps) thus they will be starving themselves out while Liquid is getting the real income.
I have played past mega creeps countless time in dota2 and I admit its not an easy task. But with the correct line up(which Liquid kinda had a decent one), correct itemization( sometime i even have a Bfury on courier ready to swap out etc) and a calm and collective mind set entering this phase of the game, it not gona THAT big of a deal.
On October 14 2015 13:42 shizaep wrote:
i agree that techies is just a fundamentally broken hero that should have never made it to dota2. he just makes playing dota not fun. it's not a fun mechanic when you "just die". It's an awful feeling when you're simply walking around and just die in a fraction of a second. it's not fun when you can't fucking walk anywhere. it's fucking awful when you're a melee hero against techies. and it's not even fun when every single fight is literally 4v5. There is a fucking reason that everyone complains about that hero
i really like the fact that the heroes in dota are more unique/characteristic than in other mobas but techies is just an example of a failed concept. I agree that it's not an elegant solution to just make him a game-losing hero that you end up having to deal with in 1% of pubs but I'm honestly not sure what else could be done about "the techies problem". there would be a pretty huge backlash if the hero just got removed
Some do share your point of view on Techies but I dont and i agree to disagree.
What am I trying to advocate is the existence of techies is what make dota so great. That there are more ways to play the game than just one. With techies, a player with lack individual skill but strong strategic mind set could still pick up the hero and learn and enjoy dota. And if you disagree with the design philosophy of a hero that has low skill ceiling, high strategic ceiling then I would say that Skeleton king and Lich and Kotl were made based on the same design concept and techies was just taking things to the extreme.
I played techies ever since dota1, when i was a noob who have only played 3-4 heroes before that. I soon realized how Techies changed the way i played dota: I look at the minimap a lot more, i observe enemies and allies movement, wards to conclude pattern and predict what gona happen next to play around that... And i think all of those things were possible because techies took strategic gameplay to the very extreme of dota in compensate for a low execution skill requirement.
Why does playing with/against Techies so much less fun? because the skill set you obtained from playing a normal hero does not often translated to Techies. Its like playing in the 5k mmr bracket and suddenly you have a 3k player on your team. People dont have enough experience to play the hero. They dont know how to psychologically fake out mines spot, they dont know how to bait for enemy sentries,... And worst of all because of the techies shaming people have no practice playing against GOOD techies players. Similar example here would be hearing newer players complain about the like of Bloodseeker and spiritbreaker while they fail to realize that dota positional play is just as important as execution play. I think the solution here isnt to nerf the hero but, through the help of community, to create a better educational material about the hero as well as the game in general. What we need is an equivalent of starcraft2 day9 daily, not another one of the lets play video bullshit you find on youtube. I am talking about in depth replay analysis conducted with an interest toward educating low and mid tier player toward the strategic aspect of dota, promoting it over personal execution. Valve should put up a bounty for content creators and let the community be the judge.
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On October 15 2015 00:06 NB wrote:
Its a surge in a relative term. What you must understand is when creep pushing in your base like that, [A] was also losing out on the potential income and experience they would often get from 3 lanes of creeps. Their only source of gold then would be the jungle and rosh which is relatively small (and harder, slower to get as you have to move between camps) thus they will be starving themselves out while Liquid is getting the real income.
I have played past mega creeps countless time in dota2 and I admit its not an easy task. But with the correct line up(which Liquid kinda had a decent one), correct itemization( sometime i even have a Bfury on courier ready to swap out etc) and a calm and collective mind set entering this phase of the game, it not gona THAT big of a deal.
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Yeah you do need the correct lineup. Liquid didnt have one. Their wave clear wasnt solid enough to keep the pressure of the lanes off. It doesnt matter how much money you make. A team with a veno razor core is already struggling with push regardless of itemization. You can make all the money you want. Your never going to leave your base.
I understand what your trying to say. You have more creeps to kill and they just have 1 NP farming up the lanes with the rest of the team sharing a jungle.
As rock solid as that logic is (please note the sarcasm) its still more networth to Alliance because treants and super creeps offer piss money and there is plenty of money to be had from pusing out the lanes in the first place. The relative gold gain from 5-10 treants per wave is again hardly 2-300 gold. Its piss in the context of what your gaining by never being pushed and forcing a fighting lineup on their part of the map or worse yet in base.
Even if said net worth is going just to NP.. thats fine because they arent planning to fight anyway. they are just making sure you never leave base.
It is still a big deal to handle mega creeps even if you have all the things in place to handle it. If it wasnt a big deal people would be beating mega creeps all the team. Sure you can beat that style even if you are facing mega but you need a lineup that can do it .. Embers/alchs etc or cores/lineups that can contain chip damage. Liquid didnt.
Your experiences as good as they might be dont really translate to the higher tiers of professional games
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Wow.. Look the reason People hate techies is not that he is strategical or needs some other skillset. You listed the reasons why people suck with him, but thats not the reason why people hate him.
Its that he fucking ruined games for melees and as a melee you couldn't do shit about it if the Techie was decent enough. Mines blowing up even when destroyed (and retarded attack prioritisation) is/was just the cream on top.
There are several heroes most people plain suck with (meepo or chen anyone?), but these heroes don't ruin the entire game for everyone else just because someone decided to be "funny" and pick them.
And serious question:
Ever had a melee heavy Team and faced an Aghs-Techies that dedicated his life to highground defense against you last patch? Ripping out your own finger nails would be less furstrating (and for sure way more exciting).
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there are a lot of heroes who "ruin" the game if you dont pick around them. huskar without physical damage is a free win, brood and pl are incredible hard to deal with without some form of aoe and then there are the heroes who are almost unplayable when countered like wk against am or pl.
sometimes you just wont have fun in dota, thats part of the game.
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Yet, they don't "force" totally diffrent play on the whole Team. If your carry is SK and the opponents is AM, well yeah, your gonna have "issues". But the game still plays like Dota.
A hero countering another hero(es) is one thing, playing a completly diffrent game because somoene picked techies is leagues more frustrating.
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i'd say that heroes like wisp, storm or riki force you to play differently as well, not to mention naga where at some point it gets into pve+illusions without ever seeing a real hero again. the one thing that is really unique about techies is that you cant beat him by killing him. to beat techies you have to beat him in the strategic game (i am with nb here) and i dont think many people apart from the very top are aware that such a game even exists.
yeah it can be frustrating to play against techies but its not that you dont play dota anymore. you still kill 4 heroes, take buildings and eventually the throne. the one thing you cant do is walk around randomly as 5 because then you just explode, but if you play against an shaker or magnus you explode as well.
personally i always thought that playing against a naga or prophet is way more annoying.
i dont really get icefrogs reasoning for his buff and neither do i get it for his nerf though. usually he changes the hero in a way that emphasizes both, strengths and weaknesses. but with techies he buffed his weaknesses in 6.84 by giving him more fighting power (lower cooldown on suicide) and his vulnerability to truesight. in 6.85 he nerfed his mapcontrol by making mines juicy targets and easy to destroy.
as a techies player going way back to dota1, i am sad that the hero is now not only trash, but no fun to play either :/
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On October 16 2015 02:56 hfglgg wrote:
making mines juicy targets and easy to destroy.
mines now give 10 gold each (as opposed to 0), so you still have to catch 10 mines per sentry ward (or 90 without losing your gem) to make your money back, and yes you're placing twice as many mines as before due to the damage/mana/cooldown change, but still not exactly "juicy targets"
mines can now be destroyed by quelling, which makes it possible for melee heroes to actually deal with techies, but it still has a 4 second cooldown so it takes minimum 40 seconds to destroy those 10 mines; they also no longer explode when destroyed so short-ranged ranged heroes (eg. Zeus, Venge) can demine safely now
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On October 16 2015 02:56 hfglgg wrote:
i'd say that heroes like wisp, storm or riki force you to play differently as well, not to mention naga where at some point it gets into pve+illusions without ever seeing a real hero again. the one thing that is really unique about techies is that you cant beat him by killing him. to beat techies you have to beat him in the strategic game (i am with nb here) and i dont think many people apart from the very top are aware that such a game even exists.
yeah it can be frustrating to play against techies but its not that you dont play dota anymore. you still kill 4 heroes, take buildings and eventually the throne. the one thing you cant do is walk around randomly as 5 because then you just explode, but if you play against an shaker or magnus you explode as well.
personally i always thought that playing against a naga or prophet is way more annoying.
i dont really get icefrogs reasoning for his buff and neither do i get it for his nerf though. usually he changes the hero in a way that emphasizes both, strengths and weaknesses. but with techies he buffed his weaknesses in 6.84 by giving him more fighting power (lower cooldown on suicide) and his vulnerability to truesight. in 6.85 he nerfed his mapcontrol by making mines juicy targets and easy to destroy.
as a techies player going way back to dota1, i am sad that the hero is now not only trash, but no fun to play either :/
Yeah ofc there are other heroes who force you to play their game. But techies is by far the most annoying one because his game is by far the most boring one when gem is on cd.
And you can't just ignore the fucker either. Strategic game? Yeah sure. Not sure which part of blindly spending 1k gold to clean up your jungle is strategic, it's not like there aren't 10 different spots where mines could be. You see him go once there and you know that you either loose your entire jungle or just buy a shitload of sentries.
It's like playing pubs vs a 20:0:10 riki as support. With the difference that you don't need to feed the techies first.
And I'm not even talking about the entire lategame bullshit, including mined rosh and shield of "can't push this".
Alch is strong but not super broken. According to dotabuff he's at 51% wr, so nowhere near being problematic. I think he's better the higher you get atm though.
I agree that WR is the jack of all trades this patch, but at the same time she's the ace of none. Support mirana is way better than support wr btw, play (dire) midlaner and have a mirana missing and you know what I'm talking about.
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EPT
