On October 06 2015 01:18 lichter wrote:
did you deny a dream finals in las vegas while forcing your opponent to scream "imba imba imba" in agony?

Oh man that still hurts...RIP Ryung

Djzapz

Canada10681 Posts

October 08 2015 03:58 GMT

#22

On October 08 2015 12:27 notesfromunderground wrote:
Do you feel it would be possible to act courageously? What would it look like?

I don't think that very many people would think that my idea of "courage" in the face of these kinds injustice is very workable, and nor do I. I myself believe that we're at the point where the benefits of "neo-imperialism" (which is not a term that I like) are too deeply ingrained in our society to do anything about it.

How could OP be courageous, he had to do a job, knowing that if he didn't do what he was told he'd likely get fired and the job would get done anyway because they'd hire somebody else to get it done. There is nothing for him to gain, and much for him to lose. Living by your own moral standards is actually pretty much impossible because you don't even get the satisfaction that comes from taking a stance and winning a battle. You can never win. If you're morally opposed to what's essentially slave labor, if you don't like pollution, but if you forfeit your phone and if you forfeit your car, it makes no difference in the world but you may be severely socially impaired. You like coffee, but even that is an inhumane mess of a business. Not all sectors of the economy are equally exploitative, but how can you avoid it making transactions which perpetuate a cycle of exploitation of certain people?

So I don't know what we even do that doesn't completely fuck other people. A person with courage is someone crazy enough to boycott exploitative practices at great detriment to themselves. I don't think this kind of insane dedication makes much sense. I personally wish we'd collectively decide to pay more for stuff to afford foreign workers adequate wages for now. And progressively go up to living wages, until they're preferably no longer under our boot. All that is moot though, because collective decisions don't happen, and individual courage is insane and pointless (though symbolic and pretty great actually).

I'm not happy at all with my ramblings, I feel like my thoughts are not expressed clearly and I think I'd normally just delete this and try writing from the beginning tomorrow. But fuck it.

Scarecrow

Korea (South)9172 Posts

October 08 2015 04:36 GMT

#23

On October 08 2015 12:19 Djzapz wrote:

Show nested quote +

Feel guilt, then retreat to a comfortable state of ambivalence while doing nothing about it.

Nailed it here. Agreed with most of what you said, I believe we're all fairly 'evil' and just choose to make excuses or not think about it. We try not to think about the system we're perpetuating, partly because: it's so normalized; we feel powerless and we'd only hurt ourselves by trying to swim against the mainstream.

evilfatsh1t

Australia8601 Posts

October 08 2015 10:05 GMT

#24

but are you a fatshit?

WonnaPlay

Netherlands912 Posts

October 08 2015 12:35 GMT

#25

Look at it, from a positive point of view. Atleast you're not removing their jobs all together...

I program and automate things, so that certain jobs get obsolete, am I evil? I don't think so, but using the same view that you have, I would have to call myself evil.. Doesn't matter in which industry you are.
The statistics you mention may as well be a functional requirement and it will be done with or without you. The world is a shitty place (unfortunately), draw a line for yourself somewhere and try to not cross it.

If you think you're crossing a line, then quit.

A month ago, I wrote a feature that allowed a missile system to work on a multi-core chip.

For example this is the line for me, depending on what type of system etc etc

Piste

6165 Posts

October 08 2015 14:46 GMT

#26

I'd instantly drop down my working pace if there was a computer tracking my work, so that instead of boss getting mad when my speed lowers, he would be happy when I'd speed things up.

Being one of the most productive and most capable employees can be pain in the ass, since you will get more responsibility, you need to be in the most depanding projects and you get the most shit thrown up on you or your team fuck up. Once you show how good you are, then your expected to be that good all the time.
Unless your not happy to be just another regular employee, don't give your best shot.

edit: and no, doing your work when feeding your family and yourself depends on it, is not evil. It is evil to be greedy bastard and wanting better results (income growth) despite the fact that you already have enough for a normal lifetime for yourself and for your kids.
Demanding better results from emplyees with their cost and not caring about the nature and environment are evil. That evil is called capitalism. And no, I am not a communist.

demonym

Canada66 Posts

October 10 2015 01:32 GMT

#27

This thread is depressing.

On October 06 2015 08:47 Qwyn wrote:

Show nested quote +

One could argue that evil lies very much in the what of things, and that intent is secondary to that. One must shoulder the burden of consequence regardless of good intentions...Very much intent vs. impact.

And if it lies in the what of things, then it is what the OP decides to do/not do about his guilty conscience that matters.

I think Qwyn put this very well although I do have something to add on.

Intentions matter in that they're one of the driving forces behind the actions that one takes. Presumably before you try to do anything there is an intention behind it so it's not like intentions don't matter at all but they do need to be grounded in what works.

Worrying too much about the bigger issues around a point like this won't really help you, it's just overwhelming, there is no solution to this direct situation that's going to fix the worlds problems. If I were in your situation I'd be more concerned about the kind of example I'd want to be, this is especially relevant to those starting/supporting a family. You don't have to try and solve all the worlds problems, but at the very least you can try to head in a better direction.

notesfromunderground

188 Posts

October 10 2015 20:16 GMT

#28

I think it matters a lot

don't succumb to the temptation to rationalize your implication in the banality of evil

PockyStix

Canada39 Posts

October 18 2015 21:34 GMT

#29

we all contribute to evil in one way or another, it's all a means to an end. most of us don't do it intentionally and it won't be good for us as individuals nor as a race if we are always feeling bad about these things. if it bugs you that much, try toget some other projects or something. just know that you aren't alone in this sentiment