EPTIt's the same argument that me and my brother have had 1000x. I don't believe cores have a higher game impact overall. They may have an easier role, but I don't think they have a higher impact.
A Supports Road to 6K MMR - Page 2
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
It's the same argument that me and my brother have had 1000x. I don't believe cores have a higher game impact overall. They may have an easier role, but I don't think they have a higher impact. | ||
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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
On December 09 2014 09:36 teddyoojo wrote: i actually found 5->6 is easiest supporting i did aswell. im picking support in most of my games and its possible to give your carries a very good start. of course there are some games in which you feel like you cant do shit but its not very different from playing core. i mean sometimes you get ganked 24/7 by their supports while your sk has sandstorm lvl 1 and cant even kill the satyr camp after 8mins (yes this actually happens in 5k+ games) | ||
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Archeon
3274 Posts
On paper sniping the high mmr person early on seems like a good solution. You gotta know that he's the one though. On December 10 2014 03:03 danl9rm wrote: I appreciated the huge post and had fun reading it, however, I cannot agree on your assumption that cores have a higher game impact than supports. It's the same argument that me and my brother have had 1000x. I don't believe cores have a higher game impact overall. They may have an easier role, but I don't think they have a higher impact. I thought differently (because of all the carry buffs this patch), but Dotabuff suggests that supports have at least an even impact on the game. If the general impact of supports was less, their variance would be smaller than carries. Which isn't the case. That being said it's harder for a support to snowball so a good player probably will have a higher impact on a core than on a support on average. | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
On December 10 2014 12:00 Blackfeather wrote: On paper sniping the high mmr person early on seems like a good solution. You gotta know that he's the one though. That's one thing people never focus on, identifying the good/bad players on either team. Supporting the right person makes all the difference, it doesn't necessarily have to be your carry. Also ganking that 5-0 SF might not even matter because it's possible somebody else is a bigger threat. | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
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ChunderBoy
3242 Posts
anyway it was always known that playing support doesnt reward you in pubs, however i do know a few support/utility mainers that are 6k also i did have a lot of high mmr games without 4ks here are some: http://puu.sh/d1kvA/7af7b9ea80.jpg 5.5k-6.7k http://puu.sh/d0XZW/8e7234d39e.jpg 5.7-7k http://puu.sh/d55cg/04ef71c9f6.jpg 6k-7.3k http://puu.sh/d51Qz/49d880ae4e.jpg 6k-6.8k http://puu.sh/d1AG3/ee5f644da4.jpg 5.9k 7.4k http://puu.sh/cMrir/c59313f008.jpg 5.7-7.4k | ||
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Ler
Germany543 Posts
On December 13 2014 10:00 ChunderBoy wrote: according to this im like wut ~150 times better than Ler? anyway it was always known that playing support doesnt reward you in pubs, however i do know a few support/utility mainers that are 6k also i did have a lot of high mmr games without 4ks here are some: http://puu.sh/d1kvA/7af7b9ea80.jpg 5.5k-6.7k http://puu.sh/d0XZW/8e7234d39e.jpg 5.7-7k http://puu.sh/d55cg/04ef71c9f6.jpg 6k-7.3k http://puu.sh/d51Qz/49d880ae4e.jpg 6k-6.8k http://puu.sh/d1AG3/ee5f644da4.jpg 5.9k 7.4k this post ... | ||
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EvilTeletubby
Baltimore, USA22261 Posts
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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
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TwelveEleven
Netherlands2 Posts
On December 09 2014 08:40 Ler wrote: As you can see, over the last week I literally lost more than 400 MMR. What could be the reason? Did I lose so many games because I got worse? Did I rage queue? Just bad luck with teammates? What I can tell you from my perspective all of these points are not true. There is an easier reason which is not that obvious. Did I rage queue? This is key here. I've been in games with you. (Hi, 4.8-5.1k player here) I believe 4 or 5 games, as I don't have dotabuff plus anymore I can't really check it. However I would like to point out to you that you are one of the most toxic players I have met. If someone is playing a bad game you start raging like mad at that person. If people jump in to defend them you just give up the game. If you had only done this in one game I wouldn't have mentioned it, but you did that in all the games. Even when we were winning. In one of those games I was playing with a 6k friend, he made 1 bad play and you did as I described above, you started calling him a 4k shitlord or some such. You would not stop for the rest of the game. I can understand having a bad day and getting mad, but what I'm talking about is over the span of a few weeks. My point is not just to call you out on your bad behaviour, it's because I think you would benefit from refraining on calling out your teammates. When you think they make a bad play. You are not always the best player on the team. On December 09 2014 08:40 Ler wrote: Dota 2 MMR Distribution: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eU9RLSu.png) Source: Dota2toplist.com The given data is not 100% accurate since it does not affect every player but still gives an idea how the MMR is actually distributed along players. As you can see, the closer you get to 6k, the less players are available. That means filling a game with players of the same MMR gets harder and harder the higher you get. This will bring us to the next point. This data cannot be remotely accurate. It's on signup basis, this is a very small selected sample of the actual player base. Namely those who bothered signing up. On December 09 2014 08:40 Ler wrote: The Skill Distribution along Players: To understand how skilled people are without looking at their heroes and roles they play, I am going to use a logical model which seems maybe strange to you: People in the top 1% are ten times better than people in the top 10%. People in the top 0,01% are 100 times better than the people in the top 1%. In reality this model is kind of accurate. (Thanks to CecilSunkure who came up with the idea some time ago) I tested this a few months ago with a friend who's rated 6k. The answer is no, what you say is not accurate. We did 3 times 20 matches of counter, no-counter, reverse-counter 1 versus 1 mid. The results of this were: I counter him: 13/20 matches were won by me. No counter: 7/20 matches were won by me. He counters me: 2/20 matches were won by me What can we learn from that? Not much honestly, but we can at least say your numbers are pulled out of your bum. Dota 2 is still a team game. He would make better decisions throughout the game when ganks are possible, farming wise he would be better. However someone on my team would be just as high rated as him. If he knows him he would very likely decide to make his game as rough as humanly possible. The point is don't make up numbers, test it out. If you want to work with arbitrary numbers, you're making a hypothesis. You should test your hypothesis. There's a 1k gap between him and me. He would have a ~65% winrate against me. That is not ten times better. If we assume 2 times better means he wins 2/3 matches, he would ~2 times better. (You can't really describe it in this way in my opinion) Note: At best my numbers can give an indication of the truth, they are not facts, they are from a small sample size between 2 players with 1k mmr difference Note: If we want to get as close to the truth as possible we would have to do a lot of testing with a lot of people On December 09 2014 08:40 Ler wrote: Supporting in low level games: Not much to say about this. Play support in these game and thank everyone for -25 since whatever you do it does not really matter. Low MMR vs high MMR Supporting: I kept track of my loses and I literally hang around 20-30% win rate in low level MMR games while in high MMR games my win rate is around 70-80%. If you kept track, then post it. So we can see for ourselves. If it's just a few games or a selected sample size then it might not really hold value. Or there might've been something "wrong" in those games (outpicked or whatever) On December 09 2014 08:40 Ler wrote: Prove: I could just made 10 screen shots from this nights public games... Literally 6 out of 10 games were 4k games. But here are some highlights: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zRYj370.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/scHtX46.png) Without having seen the games, it mostly seems like you're having less impact than your counterparts. [/quote] On December 09 2014 08:40 Ler wrote: Conclusion: Laddering as a Support under the current conditions is like playing Russian roulette. You never know if people are able to carry. High MMR supporting is a pleasure, while low level supporting is exhausting and frustrating. Do not get me wrong. When everyone in a game is within the same rating percentile, supporting is fine. Even in lower MMR games. The issue only occurs when games get heavily mixed up by the lack of high MMR players since the outcome of the game is already set. Happy Laddering and good luck to my Support brothers and Sisters, @Ler_GG You might want to consider you're not actually a 6k support. Like the many assumptions you made in your post you also assume you should be able to reach that MMR. | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
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Ler
Germany543 Posts
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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
Your behavior gets taken into account when they put you on teams with people Valve is the stupidest shit | ||
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TwelveEleven
Netherlands2 Posts
On December 22 2014 17:02 harodihg wrote: Bumping to say that MMR is nothing more than your ability to win matchmaking games Your behavior gets taken into account when they put you on teams with people Valve is the stupidest shit it's result of your behaviour, not the other way around. if you can't win because you refuse to behave differently, then you will have to substitute that with better skill. | ||
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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
Oh ya? | ||
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