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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
You know firehand I feel a certain affinity for you since you and I have similar handles. So I'm gonna give you some choice advice here to maximize your chance of achieving true happiness. Bear with me for a moment as I lay out some ideas here. I'm gonna teach you about "different strokes for different folks"
Imagine there's some optimal level of stressing about shit. Like, you worry about stuff enough to get off your ass and do things and try to iterate and improve; but not so much you have a neurotic meltdown. I'm sure you've known people who miss this mark on either side. My friend Matt is a smart guy, but is lazy and slow-moving. He would benefit greatly from the Confucian method cause he'd focus his intelligence into concrete gains for himself. The Daode Jing method would help him not at all because for him, "going with the flow" is sitting on his parents' couch all day smoking weed. I guess if your goal is to spend all day doing nothing that works. On the other hand, my friend Jeff is the kind of guy who starts freaking out (like seriously freaking out) any time he has any sort of stress. He gets so stressed he has trouble focusing on his work, and of course, this stresses him out. He is always like "hey BH, I'm feeling stressed about this assignment/girl/gift/holiday/road trip" and I'll be like "oh, why's that?" and he'll be like "well, I am feeling stressed because I'm feeling so stressed I'm gonna screw it up, so I can't stop thinking about it and trying to make it better but it's so bad hghghghuuuu". Now Jeff obviously does not need to hammer away at his problem, because at this point he's dropped the hammer and his smacking the marble block with his head over and over again, then, observing that it's not working, smacking it with his face. Jeff needs to relax.
The moral of the story here is that different strokes work for different folks. I doubt Stephano actually only spent a few hours a day playing or thinking about starcraft, but for a certain kind of person, getting them to take a step back and a deep breath can make them much more effective.
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On September 23 2014 18:03 Blazinghand wrote:You know firehand I feel a certain affinity for you since you and I have similar handles. So I'm gonna give you some choice advice here to maximize your chance of achieving true happiness. Bear with me for a moment as I lay out some ideas here. I'm gonna teach you about "different strokes for different folks" Imagine there's some optimal level of stressing about shit. Like, you worry about stuff enough to get off your ass and do things and try to iterate and improve; but not so much you have a neurotic meltdown. I'm sure you've known people who miss this mark on either side. My friend Matt is a smart guy, but is lazy and slow-moving. He would benefit greatly from the Confucian method cause he'd focus his intelligence into concrete gains for himself. The Daode Jing method would help him not at all because for him, "going with the flow" is sitting on his parents' couch all day smoking weed. I guess if your goal is to spend all day doing nothing that works. On the other hand, my friend Jeff is the kind of guy who starts freaking out (like seriously freaking out) any time he has any sort of stress. He gets so stressed he has trouble focusing on his work, and of course, this stresses him out. He is always like "hey BH, I'm feeling stressed about this assignment/girl/gift/holiday/road trip" and I'll be like "oh, why's that?" and he'll be like "well, I am feeling stressed because I'm feeling so stressed I'm gonna screw it up, so I can't stop thinking about it and trying to make it better but it's so bad hghghghuuuu". Now Jeff obviously does not need to hammer away at his problem, because at this point he's dropped the hammer and his smacking the marble block with his head over and over again, then, observing that it's not working, smacking it with his face. Jeff needs to relax. The moral of the story here is that different strokes work for different folks. I doubt Stephano actually only spent a few hours a day playing or thinking about starcraft, but for a certain kind of person, getting them to take a step back and a deep breath can make them much more effective.
Haha, its like you're my very own Guardian Angel :Thanks for the awesome reply!
In the case of Matt, when you can't really make your mind up on what you want to in life, you start doing exactly the activities you describe him doing. In this case, the Daoist method may still be of some use!
He sounds like he could be suffering from depression or another mental illness. This could be due to the pressure placed onto him by parents or even himself. It could be a case of lost purpose/ being overwhelmed with life and decisions, so you voluntarily numb your brain everyday with mindless activities.
Daoism teaches you to forget all preconceptions of what life should be, and all that you have learned: forget what his parents want him to be or pressures he feels from society. If he strips all these away and starts to really find himself, he may actually find something that moves him like he has never felt before.
As for Jeff, he just sounds like an anxious guy  . I think these ancient Chinese techniques relate to life goals and passions, more so than to gifts/holidays which sound like one off events. These two methods want you to either work at something you love non-stop until it becomes natural, or make sure you love what you do (then it will all come naturally anyway) and it seems like Jeff is really neither. Maybe you can introduce this line of thinking to him and he may find it useful
As for the ForeinKingofWings, it's confirmed by his teammates that he really did practice such a minimalistic amount compared to others. He is the true embodiment of what it means to follow the 'Uncarved Block' strategy. He found the thing in life that he loves the most (competing in online strategy) and as a result it came so easy and naturally for him: because he would rather not be doing anything else. He was one with the game, and the game was one with him: nothing was relatively forceful or hard.
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@Blazinghand makes a very important point about how advice should be tempered by the specifics of the situation (and in this case the specifics of the person). But the issue is that the contrast between Confucianism and Daoism isn't exactly about that. Consider Analects 11:20:
"[11:20] Zi Lu asked if it was a good idea to immediately put a teaching into practice when he first heard it.
Confucius said, “You have a father and an older brother to consult. Why do you need to be so quick to practice it?”
Zanyou asked the same question. Confucius said, “You should practice it immediately.”
Gong Xihua said, “When You asked you, you told him he should consult his father and elder brother first. When Qiu (Zanyou) asked you, you told him to practice it immediately. May I ask why?”
Confucius said, “Qiu has a tendency to give up easily, so I push him. You (Zi Lu) has a tendency to jump the gun, so I restrain him.”"
This is pretty much the same as was previously mentioned, but it's perfectly in line with Confucian thought. At the same time, effort in terms of hard work is very important even for the Daoists:
DDJ 33: "He who knows others is perceptive; he who knows himself is wise.
He who overcomes others is forceful; he who overcomes himself is mighty."
Here 'overcoming oneself' sounds a lot like Confucian self-cultivation, doesn't it? Compare similar passages from other central daoist texts, here the Zhuangzi 5:
"Life, death, preservation, loss, failure, success, poverty, riches, worthiness, unworthiness, slander, fame, hunger, thirst, cold, heat - these are the alternations of the world, the workings of fate. Day and night they change place before us and wisdom cannot spy out their source. Therefore, they should not be enough to destroy your harmony; they should not be allowed to enter the Spirit Storehouse. If you can harmonize and delight in them, master them and never be at a loss for joy, if you can do this day and night without break and make it be spring with everything, mingling with all and creating the moment within your own mind - this is what I call being whole in power."
And the same focus on self-cultivation once more with cook Ding from Zhuangzi 3:
"Cook Ting laid down his knife and replied, "What I care about is the Way, which goes beyond skill. When I first began cutting up oxen, all I could see was the ox itself. After three years I no longer saw the whole ox. And now - now I go at it by spirit and don't look with my eyes. Perception and understanding have come to a stop and spirit moves where it wants."
So the dichotomy of effort vs "flow" is a false one, as is the dichotomy of Confucianism vs Daoism in terms of hard work vs 'letting things be'. Becoming an uncarved block requires a lot of work and self-cultivation, but the same is true of becoming a Confucian sage. The difference is much more subtle, but to put it very simply, it's mostly a difference in direction: Whereas the Confucians think that we can improve on the way we are, Daoists think that we cannot do that because we already are just fine and have merely become somehow corrupted, so for the Confucians we have to work towards improvement in terms of changing ourselves into something better, but for the Daoists we have to work towards improvement in terms of changing ourselves into that which we have already been but have somehow fallen out of.
Something similar is the case for their respective engagements with the world: So whereas one side thinks we should take charge of and control nature, use it to improve things and relations, the other thinks this is not only impossible but actually dangerous. It's kinda like one side favouring an attack-heavy, controlling style in sc2 that relies a lot on forcing your opponent into making certain units or tech choices, whereas the other is a more reactive, scout-heavy style that adapts and tries to counter whatever the opponent made. But we both know that this is already a simplification of how sc2 is played, just as it is a vast simplification of what the two schools of thought are about.
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On September 23 2014 20:09 GERMasta wrote:
DDJ 33: "He who knows others is perceptive; he who knows himself is wise.
He who overcomes others is forceful; he who overcomes himself is mighty."
Love this one! So glad I attracted a knowledgable person on the matter! I actually read that ox story today as a snippet from Edward Slingerland's book "Trying not to try" which I purchased on ebay just today!
The way I see it is: the confucians have a clear goal in mind, and work to attain it. The Daoists on the other hand do whatever comes naturally to them: if it is playing video games so be it. If it's working as a banker/doctor/bus driver, so be it. Whatever they feel when they are in their most enlightened state. Is this close or nowhere near?
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This is a bit closer insofar as at least the Zhuangzi recommends maintaining a kind of flexibility in one's choices and not committing unconditionally to anything in particular, whereas the Confucians do have a more substantive notion of the human good. Since Zhuangzi denies that there are any specific ends to human life (and also denies that nature makes any evaluative judgements, i.e. tells us what to do) and instead recommends a life of dé (virtue/power), so it means that a life of dé must be characterized by a certain mode of activity that is grounded in certain attitudes and not by a specific content . So for them it's not so much what we do, but how we do it, i.e. the way we do things rather than the content of our activities. This doesn't mean that anything goes because "how" can to some extent determine "what", and the Daoists for example emphasize staying in 'harmony' (an affective equilibrium) while exploiting opportunities within the inevitable circumstances that befall us:
"As to serving your own heart, without sorrow or joy alternating before you, to know
what you can’t do anything about and be at ease with it as with fate, this is the
pinnacle of dé. As a minister or son, there are bound to be matters that are inevitable.
Act on the facts of the matter and forget yourself. What leisure will you have for
delighting in life and hating death?" (Z 4)
So if becoming a soldier is indeed inevitable, then so be it, since the core of the idea is to act in accordance with our circumstances in a certain way, namely calmly, creatively and skillfully. If you take a look at the story of Master Yu from Zhuangzi 6, where the Master falls ill with a disfiguring disease, it pretty much exemplifies the attitude that one should take: He adapts to the inevitable, observes the transformation of his body, speculates about how best to make use of his fate etc. So there's not much in terms of following your inclinations or doing what you like. In fact, although the Daoist's conception of the good life might be very thin, there are some constraints.
Pretty much the entirety of Zhuangzi 2 talks about criteria that make for harmonious dao-following, things like doing what is ordinary, useful, successful, responsive and what produces harmony; later on there are passages that specifically talk about 'suitability', i.e. what fits a situation (like in Z 18 etc). Those ideas go quite a long way against inclinations, since doing whatever we like might clash with what is inevitable (we don't want to die, for example), might not fit the circumstances well or might even take us off the Way etc.
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On September 24 2014 00:33 GERMasta wrote:
This is a bit closer insofar as at least the Zhuangzi recommends maintaining a kind of flexibility in one's choices and not committing unconditionally to anything in particular, whereas the Confucians do have a more substantive notion of the human good. Since Zhuangzi denies that there are any specific ends to human life (and also denies that nature makes any evaluative judgements, i.e. tells us what to do) and instead recommends a life of dé (virtue/power), so it means that a life of dé must be characterized by a certain mode of activity that is grounded in certain attitudes and not by a specific content . So for them it's not so much what we do, but how we do it, i.e. the way we do things rather than the content of our activities. This doesn't mean that anything goes because "how" can to some extent determine "what", and the Daoists for example emphasize staying in 'harmony' (an affective equilibrium) while exploiting opportunities within the inevitable circumstances that befall us:
"As to serving your own heart, without sorrow or joy alternating before you, to know
what you can’t do anything about and be at ease with it as with fate, this is the
pinnacle of dé. As a minister or son, there are bound to be matters that are inevitable.
Act on the facts of the matter and forget yourself. What leisure will you have for
delighting in life and hating death?" (Z 4)
So if becoming a soldier is indeed inevitable, then so be it, since the core of the idea is to act in accordance with our circumstances in a certain way, namely calmly, creatively and skillfully. If you take a look at the story of Master Yu from Zhuangzi 6, where the Master falls ill with a disfiguring disease, it pretty much exemplifies the attitude that one should take: He adapts to the inevitable, observes the transformation of his body, speculates about how best to make use of his fate etc. So there's not much in terms of following your inclinations or doing what you like. In fact, although the Daoist's conception of the good life might be very thin, there are some constraints.
Pretty much the entirety of Zhuangzi 2 talks about criteria that make for harmonious dao-following, things like doing what is ordinary, useful, successful, responsive and what produces harmony; later on there are passages that specifically talk about 'suitability', i.e. what fits a situation (like in Z 18 etc). Those ideas go quite a long way against inclinations, since doing whatever we like might clash with what is inevitable (we don't want to die, for example), might not fit the circumstances well or might even take us off the Way etc.
The story of Master Yu makes a little more sense out of Daoism for me now, thanks!
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I don't know that book by Slingerland, but his _Effortless Action_ is a pretty good book even if it tries too much to shoehorn all of Chinese philosophy into Wuwei.
On September 24 2014 00:33 GERMasta wrote:
So if becoming a soldier is indeed inevitable, then so be it, since the core of the idea is to act in accordance with our circumstances in a certain way, namely calmly, creatively and skillfully. .
I don't know if that's totally true. That sounds more like a Zen Buddhist attitude than Zhuangzi. Zhuangzi actively refuses to participate in civil service - Zhuangzi thinks the best life is to live simply in the mountains and refuse participation in human affairs. Maybe what you are saying is the attitude of "weekend Daoists" who are Confucian bureaucrats during the week, but I think that Z advocates a more direct form of "dropping out" than you give him credit for
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I can see what you are getting at, since traditionally Daoists have pursued their ideals by following a certain path with a specific content, in this case retiring from public life and living a simple and private one in the countryside. It is also the case that a Daoist is very unlikely to be moved by worldly ambitions and so has little reason not to drop out of public life, but I really do think that this retreat is merely one possible way of expressing daoist ideals. If 'inevitable' circumstances force one to live a busy official life, then doing so is not anathema to daoist ideals, but the contrary would be:
"Tzu-kao, duke of She, who was being sent on a mission to Ch'i, consulted Confucius [the spokesperson of the text]. "The king is sending me on a very important mission. [...] Yet this morning I received my orders from the king and by evening I am gulping ice water - do you suppose I have developed some kind of internal fever? I have not even gone to Ch'i to see what the situation is like and already I am suffering from the yin and yang. And if I do not succeed, I am bound to suffer from the judgment of men. I will have both worries. As a minister, I am not capable of carrying out this mission. But perhaps you have some advice you can give me . . ."
Confucius said, "[...] And to serve your own mind so that sadness or joy do not sway or move it; to understand what you can do nothing about and to be content with it as with fate-this is the perfection of dé. As a subject and a son, you are bound to find things you cannot avoid. If you act in accordance with the state of affairs and forget about yourself, then what lesiure will you have to love life and hate death? Act in this way and you will be all right."
It does seem to me that even Daoists believe that communities require rulers, and rulers in turn require bureaucrats, so both are in a sense 'inevitable'. In that case, it would be all the better to have a daoist ruler or an entire daoist staff or both. This is also the reason why, if we look at the daodejing, a good third of it is about political matters and practical advice as to how to rule in accordance with the Way, as are many passages from the Zhuangzi.
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