EPT
Crash and Burn: I'm done waiting
| Blogs > Liquid`FLUFF |
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FLUFFNSTUFF
United States51 Posts
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zturchan
Canada156 Posts
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Corgi Apocalypse
United States89 Posts
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nicoacademia
6 Posts
hopefully the rest will let you claim the throne. because the team as a whole do not look like a team at all anymore(and this is just from watching games). while you have suppressed your ego... i think others(bulba) needs an ego check. if not...like all painful relationships that go on and on... a break up is needed for the sake of all of the individual member's sanity and dota2 careers. good things will come no doubt. | ||
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woojaekeem
United States524 Posts
I think it's good for the team that someone is finally willing to light a fire under all of you guys, but this should be a private 5man conversation, not a public blog. | ||
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Proof.
535 Posts
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LedZepp1109
2 Posts
That being said, loved seeing you guys at the monster cup; it's too bad Bulba's poor positioning had to lose you that second game though. For what its worth though, you guys definitely got the loudest applause (despite getting third place). | ||
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ch33psh33p
7650 Posts
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
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Noya
Uruguay11223 Posts
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Skyline026
Netherlands1129 Posts
What makes you believe things will be different from now on? | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On March 12 2014 14:27 woojaekeem wrote: no offense, but why are you showing us this before telling your team? he said he wants to vent in his blogs | ||
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megacrack
Australia171 Posts
question: did someone actually read all 30 pages of clockwork project?  | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
Playing a game of Dota 2 with 4 other players isn't a team. A team is a group of 5 players who trust and respect each other and work hard to reach universal goals set by the leader. seems close to what i and some other people think of liquid's situation right now. i wouldnt really know how the internal guts of trust or accountability in liquid, let alone any dota team, but either way it seems liquid lacks all of it. i do really hope you showed your teammates first though... | ||
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andyrau
13015 Posts
instead you're waiting for everyone else to become cognizant of it because you're cowering in fear that people may not recognize your ability, and that's seriously the exact opposite of what leadership is. if you didn't have the ability or grit to handle/address the failures your team, then maybe you shouldn't have led that team in the first place. your blog post makes it seem like you're frustrated with some far off, abstract leadership problem rather than coming up with a coherent plan. I hope as a team you can figure something out. or you know, like you've been venting about for several paragraphs, finally come out and give them the solution. better late than never I guess. | ||
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9001
771 Posts
On March 12 2014 14:53 megacrack wrote: cheer up dude.. as a fan of alot of sports... every team has up and down period, no different to liquid. GL and ill always go foor liquid question: did someone actually read all 30 pages of clockwork project? I just did, and I'm supposed to be studying for an exam. SMH | ||
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Caladbolg
2855 Posts
Leadership is service, it's servant-hood to the those being led. It's not about power over others, or control, but about sharing and learning and growing together, and being the catalyst for that even at the cost of your own "self-respect." Maybe the team is just full of too many "egos." But hey that's what people say about DK, Na'Vi, etc. and they're still able to function really well. At the end of the day, you have to be able to share yourself, share your vision, and do your best to make the others do the same. There is no manual for leadership. It's built gradually on a case-to-case basis. EDIT: Forgot the most important part I'd like to share. Fluff, just take responsibility. And show that you deserve that responsibility. You don't have to go off on teammates, or be a dictator, to get things done. Prove yourself, and earn that captaincy. But in all of it, you have to show that you have all their best interests at heart. You don't have to be best friends with them, as this is a professional team, but you have to be able to communicate that adage: "I've got your back, and I'll leave you to take care of mine." | ||
opterown
Australia54784 Posts
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Forgottenfrog
United States1268 Posts
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pauzer
United States6 Posts
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Spicy_Curry
United States10573 Posts
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ctypewriter
63 Posts
You know your mistakes already, so go and fix them. Grab your teammates and reveal to them what you've revealed to no one else. Make your deepest secret's become your bond between you and your teammates and never look back. I'll be cheering for you ^^ Edit: Grammar stronk. | ||
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iNteLStyLe
United States346 Posts
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andrathebackbon
Indonesia28 Posts
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sCFade
307 Posts
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Restless-
Malaysia86 Posts
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
It just feels hypocritic to give this rant to the public while you have to scrim for that many hours EVERY DAY with people you obviously do not trust with having the leadership which you feel comfortable with having. Honestly, I'd sit down for a few days with your team and talk this shit out. Especially because of how you described the Monster invitational, I KNOW that feeling and you should react on it, I'd rather be on team with an honest asshole in the team that openly says he doesn't believe in the succes than someone who just keeps it all in. Then again, you might not be the only one feeling really shitty about your team situation. I remember Synderen saying on stream that you should never drown yourself in the game and now you've been fed the same thing that you've had enough of for what has been since the TL 2.0. It doesn't even sound like TL 2.0 was a good breather for you. Not that I am in any place to give you advice other than commenting your blog, but I would sit down and consider if the TI4 dream (with Teamliquid) is worth exhuasting yourself that much for. I hope you get better, cheers, I'll be cheering for you | ||
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Kishin2
United States7534 Posts
In the documentary, after getting 8th place and into the money, everyone on the team felt satisfied with their performance. Sure, given the issues the team during the bootcamp and such, getting 8th doesn't seem bad. But really, I'm surprised no one outright said, as a competitor, that they were disappointed. Complacency: it's an issue I think all NA teams have impedes the scene. The only team that might prove to be an exception is the new EG. Winning takes trust and sacrifice. Based on your writing, TL lacks both. Honestly, I don't believe you have what it takes to win TI. Best of luck in the future though. The Dota scene in general lacks competent captains and drafters, NA have none. | ||
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iNteLStyLe
United States346 Posts
I am not cut out for pro dota yet I rooted him and supported him and he had me on a section of his friends list dubbed "worthless" I'm sure he thinks the same of all of you who support him. Are you all that naive? | ||
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
On March 12 2014 16:09 iNteLStyLe wrote: I don't get why anyone is rooting for fluff. I am not cut out for pro dota yet I rooted him and supported him and he had me on a section of his friends list dubbed "worthless" I'm sure he thinks the same of all of you who support him. Are you all that naive? Maybe we're not all bitter fucks? | ||
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fascistfromhell
1689 Posts
There is no way the team atmosphere is going to improve after this. Maybe it's time to rebuild and start over. | ||
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eu.exodus
South Africa1186 Posts
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CrazyBirdman
Germany3509 Posts
But honestly, tagging a bunch of people as "worthless" seems pretty fucked up. Although it was long ago and he maybe has deleted that tag by now, at least I hope so. | ||
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iNteLStyLe
United States346 Posts
So you're going to actively support someone who likely would consider you "worthless" ? Do you have some sort of mental problem? User was warned for this post | ||
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Verator
United States283 Posts
Some other points: You can't be both a leader and an introvert, these are contradictory things. By definition a leader must be comfortable interacting with people regardless of circumstances, and tackling problems head on. You can't possibly lead effectively until you fix that problem first. Second, if half the team isn't willing to get along with each other or simply can't, you should probably break up the team. But you need someone willing to be the asshole who kicks the people who aren't living up to potential or are causing problems. Yet again, the job of the leader of the team. Your blog doesn't indicate anywhere that you're actually up to the task of forcing your vision upon other people who are confident and know your shit, and will question your decisions if they think they might be wrong. Your job as a leader would be to force your vision on the others, and make them see why your decisions are right. It seems like your old team was more likely just very submissive and let you do what you wanted without ever challenging that. The players on liquid are smart, and have a lot of really smart ideas about the game, and will challenge ideas if they're unsure. This is how things are supposed to be, and the leader should be able to take this questioning and challenging and prove their ideas to the rest of the team in response. | ||
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Verator
United States283 Posts
On March 12 2014 16:31 iNteLStyLe wrote: So you're going to actively support someone who likely would consider you "worthless" ? Do you have some sort of mental problem? Maybe its an accurate assessment of some people with a history that supports a pretty negative label. | ||
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tenbird
Korea (South)1 Post
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Shaella
United States14827 Posts
On March 12 2014 16:31 iNteLStyLe wrote: So you're going to actively support someone who likely would consider you "worthless" ? Do you have some sort of mental problem? Are you saying you don't have people on your friendlist you consider worthless in terms of playing with? | ||
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
On March 12 2014 16:31 iNteLStyLe wrote: So you're going to actively support someone who likely would consider you "worthless" ? Do you have some sort of mental problem? Seeing as how the only hero i can play is clockwerk, and i can't even do that well, i'd say the 'worthless' tag would be well-justified :D | ||
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i99
United States362 Posts
On March 12 2014 16:37 Shaella wrote: Are you saying you don't have people on your friendlist you consider worthless in terms of playing with? Even if they are you don't tag someone as worthless. pretty fucked up | ||
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iNteLStyLe
United States346 Posts
To answer your question. I honestly don't care a super lot I think its just kinda disturbing that he goes through the steps to create a "worthless" section of his profile | ||
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andyrau
13015 Posts
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Shaella
United States14827 Posts
On March 12 2014 16:41 i99 wrote: Even if they are you don't tag someone as worthless. pretty fucked up the truth hurts brother. | ||
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Thomas7575
United States10 Posts
I really don't know how things are in your head or with your team. I hope you can keep in mind that a lot of the things you feel come from the comparisons of your inner thought to the way your teammates present them selves on the outside. They all think about what's wrong and have their own theories. TC and WayTo#WhereDidTheSexyGo doubt themselves too. It sounds like you've got a hard couple of days ahead of you. Whatever you decide, I'm behind you all the way. Good luck, guys. | ||
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Julmust
Sweden4867 Posts
On March 12 2014 14:30 LedZepp1109 wrote: That being said, loved seeing you guys at the monster cup; it's too bad Bulba's poor positioning had to lose you that second game though. Before I go in to what I really wanted to say I just had to comment on this: Yes, Bulba was out of position in the woods. Yes he got caught out. Yes it was bad. But saying Bulba lost the game for TL right there is a bit of a stretch for me. TL lost well before that, that was just the last drop. There were so many questionable descisions, from everyone on the team, in the late game. Bulba was a part of the problem, but not the biggest one. To Fluff: I know exactly how you feel. I've been a part of teams in different sports too, some which played on a high level, and the problem was pretty much clear from the "Behind the Horse" documentary. Now I'm sure it doesn't show the full picture, but when Hot_Bid was lecturing you all there was no reaction. And that's the worst thing that can happen in a situation like that. Sometimes you need to have a huge blow out. Hell when I played in the most successful team I've ever been a part of me and my best friend at the time would have physical fights during practise. He once, with skates on, directed a kick meant for my achilles tendon, something that would've crippled me for a long time. After a loss there would be shouting matches in our locker room, people calling eachother out and attacking eachother (with words). But you know what? After that everything might be tense for a day, but the next day when we met up for practise or a team meeting, everything was forgiven. Forgiven but not forgotten. Sometimes you need to break down bonds to make them stronger. Have a huge fight over Skype. Have everyone get real upset and say what they feel. Then take with you what they said, not how they said it. It will make your team better. From a liquid fan: GL, and I do hope you get that TI4 invite! | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
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iNteLStyLe
United States346 Posts
Feel free to message me | ||
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cecek
Czech Republic18921 Posts
What makes a good leader is earning the trust and respect. Instead, a good portion of your blog is saying how you think everything would be so good if your team put their trust into you. You're asking the team and fans to trust you, that's never going to work. The next thing is you talking about how the team should have he same goal and work together, but you follow it up by saying that you don't care if this team goes to shit if it means that you can achieve your personal goal of being a captain on a team that trusts you and don't even mention the goals and thoughts of the rest of the team. I think a big problem is that you have a big ego and want to lead the team (which is no way a negative, it is definitely a good thing for a pro player), but you don't have the natural leadership and skills to take the team over. That's just going to result in you being bitter forever. | ||
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Seiuchi
United States931 Posts
On March 12 2014 16:54 iNteLStyLe wrote: Well I'm giving away a TL pennant. Or deleting it Feel free to message me I bet you're in the worthless section because you're too sensitive to listen to others or look at your own play to improve by the way you're acting | ||
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hpty603
United States262 Posts
You gave TC command of drafting, you guys started winning, then you felt jealous, started to force yourself into drafting again, which just caused more problems. "Blameless failures" is stated right after you said you were a direct cause of the team going downhill. Afterwards you go into full autism mode and essentially start pouting that you aren't the leader. You mention that you aren't really friends with them but you aren't giving great reasons as to why they should want to be friends with you. You're probably right when you say you don't deserve a TI4 invite. IMO because EG is the better team right now. A team that literally just started back up. This team has better synergy and leadership already than Liquid. Primarily because of shit like you hoping your own team fails because you're pouting and caught in a fantasy where you were the true captain again. You demand respect and trust? You fucking earn that, you don't just expect people to hand it over for nothing. Look at TC, you gave him a bit of authority, and he thrived and gained even more influence because of it. That's how it happens. Becoming angry because people don't immediately respect you and do everything you say isn't being "emo" or "radical", it's being a petulant child. "I'm a dynamic person and I can be whatever I feel like so stop trying to put me into one of your idiotic categories." My first reaction of reading this line was that you're as immature as an angsty teenager. I've honestly always liked Liquid, back before Jinro was beasting in the GSL. That's not really the case after reading this since I realize the captain acts like a brat and essentially throws tantrums when things don't go his way. If I were one of Liquid's higher-ups, I'd want you off the team after reading this. Stop acting like a bitch and get a grip. | ||
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gosukiler
7 Posts
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bigglesbiggles
New Zealand30 Posts
As a fan who's been watching your team dynamics closely for some time, this post has been kind of written on your face in interviews for some time, as well as being a subtext in your blog posts. You seem to feel out of place on teams that you don't lead, but have doubts about your ability to have an appropriate social context for leadership. Every person on your team, of course, seems to experience some sort of will to lead ("inventing" things is a sort of leadership, for example, as is being a playmaker). With an autocratic view of leadership, I don't think you're gonna have space for every member to express themselves in-game. Leadership of a team is a variety of work, not inherently a higher form of personal stature. There's a lot of different elements to it (calls, drafting, strategic direction, tactical direction, managing interpersonal relationships) and I don't think you're gonna find any systems that have one autocratic leader to whose will everyone submits in every one of these aspects (be it in the domain of sport or in every day life) that aren't extremely toxic for at least one person involved. Yes, it's better if people just do what the call-maker says and accept their mistakes, let the drafter draft (with input) and play it out, but if done voluntarily these things are not submission to anyone's will. Your team has a lot of leadership at its disposal. Y'all just gotta put it to use in a way that doesn't invalidate people's contributions & abilities. Easier said than done though. + Show Spoiler + Also that tinker win against na'vi was the best shit ever. Just throwin it out there. | ||
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iNteLStyLe
United States346 Posts
On March 12 2014 17:03 Seiuchi wrote: I bet you're in the worthless section because you're too sensitive to listen to others or look at your own play to improve by the way you're acting I'm done talking about this. I hope TL figures their stuff out Gl. | ||
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ArchDC
Malaysia1996 Posts
I think while friendship is nice, its not necessary to winning. Plenty of professional teams (NBA, NFL, etc.) win and its about execution and skill. Respect and trust is necessary but friendship is not. There should be one coach/leader making the calls and its not necessarily one player throughout the game, and may even be someone outside the game too. Whoever it is, should be someone who has the faith of management and must earn the respect and trust of his team. In your situation, whether this is the best way to do it will depend on how well you know your team and how they will respond. | ||
Liquid`Zephyr
United States996 Posts
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Kerm
France467 Posts
Hope things get better for you Fluff. | ||
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Omnishroud
1073 Posts
I mean sure, it could be better, but you're acting a bit dramatic for someone with a team in such a good position since its inception. Think of all the other teams who don't even have these problems and are facing 6th - 8th place every tournament and wont stop trying. I get it, the team has some internal issues (that you decided to vent in public for whatever reason) but despite it all you guys are still performing at the top. Somebody needs to sit down and sort that shit out and when they do you'll stop taking those 3rd-4th finishes and be sitting at the top. You're in need of a bit of a reality check tbh, your team might have internal issues you arent happy with and need to be fixed but to say all these things is a bit over the top with your stellar performance regardless. I mean, at the end of the day it just comes across as a hissy fit because you arent the leader anymore. | ||
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buckKeefe
United States63 Posts
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Thomas7575
United States10 Posts
On March 12 2014 16:42 iNteLStyLe wrote: I honestly don't care a super lot... It sounds like you care a lot about how a 19-year old felt about you a long time ago. I'm really sorry you feel that way. | ||
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Angra
United States2652 Posts
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5-s
United States1674 Posts
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yawnoC
United States3704 Posts
I'll be honest. Reading this confirmed my feelings about liquid that I got from watching 'Behind the Horse' and ever since TI3 ended. It never came down to talent or motivation with you guys. It came down to having a vision/identity and someone to be the driving force behind that vision/identity. During TI3 I felt like TL had a vision/identity but then TI3 ended and that identity broke up and ever since the new Liquid hasn't found a new one. When watching liquid I just don't feel that vision/identity I do when watching other teams draft and play. Hopefully this blog will reopen the communication that seems to have been lost and the team can be the team most fans expect it to be. I will say that I think you can be the driving for that can shape a the new identity or create a new vision for the team. You did it with FIRE and you did it with coL. I would wish you luck Fluff but I don't think you need it. I just think you needed a kick in the ass. Make the team into the team you know it can be. Not for the fans or even for the organization you play for. Do it because you believe you can. | ||
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jubil
United States2602 Posts
First of all, as a Liquid fan, I think it's pretty disrespectful and inaccurate to say that the team is a joke and that you are losers. We still remember the great success you guys had earlier in the team's history, a couple promising games you've shown recently, and of course your impressive placement at TI3. I don't know if you realize just how much joy that win over LGD brought me and other fans so it frankly stings to hear you dismiss this team so easily. Everyone knows tha Liquid dota is going through rough times but if you don't acknowledge the clear successes that you have had and the potential and ability you still have, that's being being blind or dishonest. On leadership... I agree that if you are the kind of person who is meant to be a leader, doing anything but that will only leave you with regrets. Being a leader means, though, that you have to fully take the benefits with the hardships, and realize the things that are and are not within your power. You stated that you have never felt the trust, friendship, and respect of the whole team. Being a leader means being able to launch into your job even without those things. More than anything else what leadership requires is confidence, in your ability and authority. If you don't have it you need to fake it until you do. People will want follow you if you believe (or seem to believe) that you deserve to be followed, and if you believe that you're meant to lead, you ought to believe that you deserve to be followed. You can't just ask someone to be your friend and respect and trust you any more than you can just ask someone to fall in love with you. You have to ask for a baseline of obedience and just do your part (drafting, shot calling, etc.) as best you can and if you're compatable with the team the trust and friendship will build over time. And if they don't respect you personally they should at least respect your positon, if not they or you have to go. At the risk of cliché, the strongest iron comes from the hottest fire and the greatest triumphs after the lowest falls. You and Liquid have the potential to go even farther in TI4 than you did TI3 and I'll still be rooting for you. | ||
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[O]ops
Italy44 Posts
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
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iNteLStyLe
United States346 Posts
On March 12 2014 19:00 Seeker wrote: Who is iNteLStyLe? A fan who wants TL to succeed. | ||
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Ruptur3
Costa Rica8 Posts
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
Ahhh okay. | ||
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Fwizzz
Philippines4420 Posts
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Shaella
United States14827 Posts
On March 12 2014 19:15 Fwizzz wrote: I think fluff made the wrong choice here. He should have said this on the team rather than exposing this to the public. Its obvious that this is less of a rant and more of an ultimatum Fluff wants to be captain, and he's not going to be happy unless he's captain. Classic political move of putting this desire out in the public so it can't just be ignored. | ||
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lalalala
17 Posts
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Bryce241
Zimbabwe80 Posts
Bring back Liquid`Korok .. it's not too late. | ||
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Erasus
United States22 Posts
FLUFF, I appreciate your honesty in this post as an avid Liquid fan. My friends whom I play Dota with or converse about it with all consider me a Liquid fanboy, and it's a title I accept because I do believe in this team. However, I'm having mixed feelings about some of the things you addressed. Addressing the leadership is very important, and necessary. It's becoming more and more apparent that the internal issues of this squad is holding back the team from the top tier level of play that you guys can reach. But what troubles me is when you state that you'd willingly sabotage the team in order to show them that they need your leadership. You said it yourself, you're a guy who is "it's my way or get out of my way." Something big is about to happen and there are a few possible outcomes: 1) You continue to idly sit by while assuming some sort of co-leadership and drag the team down by sabotaging them. This is the result I fear the most. You cannot call yourself a leader when you admit you will willingly hurt your comrades. It does not work this way. 2) You leave the team, or get kicked. You start over. You titled this blog "Crash and Burn" for a reason. You find teammates you can believe in and they believe in you. You've expressed elsewhere how much you want to play a core role to show off your personal skill. 3) You leave this blog behind, and actually do what you're talking about. The greatest leaders didn't get the position handed to them, they rose to meet a need in a time of despair. You have to seize the moment and own all responsibility. If you stretch your wings and soar above the rest of the competition, or if the tar melts under the heat of the sun and you fall back down, you must own it. Since Liquid` Dota 2.0 formed post Ti3, all the talk amongst the team is how much potential this squad owns. Even those who ridicule and mock the team's poor performance must recognize the personal level of play each member possesses. I fully believe in this squad and it's potential. Do you? If you want your teammates to respect you, respect them. If you want them to believe in you, believe in them. A leader best demonstrates leadership by how well he follows his followers. If you can't put aside your differences and continue to intentionally hold back the team, then as you worded it in your post, "get out of the way." If you don't have the resolve to fill in the holes at the base of the sinking ship that is Liquid` Dota, quit making more and complaining about not having someone who can. The wind is rising, will you try to live? | ||
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Sippycup
United States12 Posts
On March 12 2014 19:15 Fwizzz wrote: I think fluff made the wrong choice here. He should have said this on the team rather than exposing this to the public. As an introvert myself, I have to disagree with you here. I believe this is a last ditch effort for Fluff to muster self-accountability for his actions by showing everyone a slight sense of vulnerability from someone who's normally extremely reserved. Introverts count on themselves for accountability, because a lot of the time as "quiet" people we see our thoughts and opinions get washed in and away with the people who dont have this kind of issue. We never want to step on anyone's toes, even if what they do makes us incredibly angry. Given a leadership role, when we mess up, we normally see it fit to get out of the way and retract back in to our shells when someone seems unhappy with our decision, and a lot of people look down on us for that. Despite being the captain and starting goaltender of a very successful high school hockey team, I was quiet and let things I shouldn't have slip on my team. I hated talking unless I needed to, and most of the time people that didn't share something in common with me would have an extremely hard time understanding what successful and meaningful communication was with me, so I left anything I didn't want to handle directly in the hands of my assistant captains. After that I spent time in two wars. Boot camp made me be loud, I found my voice after 17 years, and along with it came much more confidence in my own abilities as a leader, and promotions followed that very quickly. Fast forward to 2014 and I've finally found the balance I've needed all along. I'm still greatly an introvert, however I've found balance and comfort with the time and refinement I needed in my life all along. It took me being homeless, losing amazing jobs over layoffs or because of my age, having family and lovers abandon me for not being able to understand what Im doing, pulling myself back up from near death, finding an incredible woman, and forcing myself to stick to my career path to finally become successful and be happy with myself. It took me finding a person to force me to be accountable for my actions or pay the price of losing her and the family I want some day to finally wake the fuck up and fix everything. Liquid is Fluff's baby. I always see him and Bulba as the face of this franchise, and if I know a man dedicated to something he loves, telling everyone around him "HEY, MAKE ME ACCOUNTABLE FOR MY ACTIONS" is what he needs to fuel his desire to succeed. | ||
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4Darco
United States1 Post
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makmeatt
2024 Posts
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shilla
United Kingdom1 Post
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rkshox
Taiwan536 Posts
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
Tell Bulba to get down his high horse, no, the leaving of korok doesn't warrant him to play mid, he cant play mid, period. He can do alot of stupid shit when he is on offlane but a mid player needs to know what to do according to different situations since a good mid simply doesn't make many mistakes, his understanding of heroes is too 1-dimentional. I keep getting this strong gesture of 'ohya man i am mid now, is my time to shine man!!!'. and about TC, wake him up to make sure he knows that this is not some pub game. Radi SK is fine (by all means, seriously) but going for a 4 protects 1 #1 SK is just stupid, simply because you have too many better options than a SK. Or at least tell the team your plans are, you dont go gank with a midas Void (who goes Bfury next LOL). If you dont play many pubs with your team the chances of winning a pub line up with your team won't look good, you dont need a genius to figure that out. and the supports seem always confused. I know good supports are hard to come by in NA but seriously the supports are more useless than what ixmike bro did back then. Find a way to fix that please. Maybe like you said you need to be the captain again, I don't feel like TC would be bothered that much if he doesnt draft for team :S anyway, i think most tler wish the best for our dota2 team, so please get your shit together. | ||
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Delphiki
Philippines1955 Posts
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Nedereden
777 Posts
Carpe Diem... + Show Spoiler + That was among the most inspired and straight-from-the-heart pieces of reading ive probably ever gone thru. Kinda in a stupor after re-readin it. GJ Fluff. GJ Liquid. FIGHTING! | ||
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Autotroph
United Kingdom940 Posts
On March 12 2014 20:37 Delphiki wrote: you wanted so much to be a leader you've forgotten what being a leader means Precisely. As people have been saying, this seems very much like a stream-of-consciousness release of emotion, so I think picking it apart is kinda pointless. But I still think it reveals quite a lot of important stuff about you and the team. Your desire to be successful in your chosen field is the highest goal someone can have IMO and it's very admirable that you've dedicated so much in pursuit of it. It has consumed you, however, and you have allowed your drive for success to become one-dimensional and myopic. The way you treat 'success' and 'leadership' as buzzwords, the way you worship these nebulous concepts has blinded you and prevented you from actually doing what you need to in pursuit of the real, tangible goals of your field. This plays into the negative emotions caused by defeat and failure, and the cycle of loss reinforces your incorrect view that only FLUFF can solve the problems of the team, that if only you were in charge this would never have happened. I think one of the biggest lessons you learn in the transition from child to adult is that mistakes are permanent: when you're a kid and you knock your Lego tower down a parent or teacher magically rebuilds it, when you fall down the slide someone scoops you up. What you have to learn when becoming an adult is that the effect of a mistake will remain, no matter what you do - instead of wishing for it to be how it was before an adult needs to learn to accept it, knowing that it cannot be reversed, and learn what lessons there are from it. ...and in the interval between initial failure and subsequent success, the the gap between who we wish one day to be and who we are at present must come pain, anxiety, envy, and humiliation. We suffer because we cannot immediately master the ingredients of fulfillment. De Botton | ||
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Nedereden
777 Posts
Precisely. As people have been saying, this seems very much like a stream-of-consciousness release of emotion, so I think picking it apart is kinda pointless. But I still think it reveals quite a lot of important stuff about you and the team. Your desire to be successful in your chosen field is the highest goal someone can have IMO and it's very admirable that you've dedicated so much in pursuit of it. It has consumed you, however, and you have allowed your drive for success to become one-dimensional and myopic. The way you treat 'success' and 'leadership' as buzzwords, the way you worship these nebulous concepts has blinded you and prevented you from actually doing what you need to in pursuit of the real, tangible goals of your field. This plays into the negative emotions caused by defeat and failure, and the cycle of loss reinforces your incorrect view that only FLUFF can solve the problems of the team, that if only you were in charge this would never have happened. I think one of the biggest lessons you learn in the transition from child to adult is that mistakes are permanent: when you're a kid and you knock your Lego tower down a parent or teacher magically rebuilds it, when you fall down the slide someone scoops you up. What you have to learn when becoming an adult is that the effect of a mistake will remain, no matter what you do - instead of wishing for it to be how it was before an adult needs to learn to accept it, knowing that it cannot be reversed, and learn what lessons there are from it. Let him who has never felt frustrated when failing throw the first stone. | ||
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Autotroph
United Kingdom940 Posts
On March 12 2014 21:10 Nedereden wrote: Let him who has never felt frustrated when failing throw the first stone. Just trying to share what I've learned after messing up a few times! | ||
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innociv
United States346 Posts
Did you forget about when you played in TI3 and people kept posting gifs of your sick plays? I'm pretty sure most people recognize you as like the best American support player. But there's lots of players, lots of games, and you don't always play your best. So sure, they're not going to say it every day like back during TI3. | ||
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Earll
Norway847 Posts
I think most people agree that fluff could be an amazing captain given the right circumstances, and I really hope such circumstances come along and lead TeamLiquid to its prime. Would be quite sad to not see Liquid at TI4. | ||
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teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
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StrayWolf
Malaysia161 Posts
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CountChocula
Canada2068 Posts
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pNRG
United States333 Posts
Fluff would be cut, imo. | ||
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SiZ.FaNtAsY
Korea (South)1497 Posts
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
you need a plan of action . idk how dota practice works but in broodwar you practice the same build 100x until you perfect it | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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CruelZeratul
Germany4588 Posts
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carefreecfc
United States1 Post
I don't know if you read these comments. I would imagine you don't because you seem very self confident and seem to think you know best - which is fine; I think every successful professional in any field needs confidence in themselves that they know best and to trust their own abilities and decision making. Let me start by saying that I've been a massive fan of Liquid since the Complexity days. I was heartbroken when you guys lost in TI2, and your TI3 win over LGD gave me absolute chills while watching - it was a momentous achievement. I've been a huge sports fan for years (Lakers and Chelsea FC), and I can say easily that some of the emotional highs I've felt while watching Liquid play really well (comeback vs. MouZ with TC's Rapier Gyro, winning streak in early 2013, winning streak in late 2013/early 2014) match the emotional highs I've felt watching the Lakers win the NBA Finals or Chelsea winning the Premier League. Because of that, the recent malaise of the team has been extremely frustrating for a fan. Not because you guys are losing, but because it seems to me like you guys are trying the same thing over and over again, for no reason. You guys are stuck in the past. I lost count of how many times Liquid would draft ET for Bulba mid and put Qojqva on a Nyx offlane. A quote attributed to Albert Einstein says "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result". This is what I would say to Liquid right now. At least when you guys try to throw curveballs like drafting an Axe it actually results in some strong play and building an early lead vs Fnatic (even if that lead was blown by lack of coordination). It's painfully clear you guys need to change something up and try something different. I do agree with some of the other posters here that you should have tried to communicate with your team before posting this on a public forum. It does come off a bit whiny/desperate, but one person pointed out that introverts think very differently from extroverts, and it can be difficult for them to express their ideas of accountability: "Introverts count on themselves for accountability, because a lot of the time as "quiet" people we see our thoughts and opinions get washed in and away with the people who dont have this kind of issue. We never want to step on anyone's toes, even if what they do makes us incredibly angry. Given a leadership role, when we mess up, we normally see it fit to get out of the way and retract back in to our shells when someone seems unhappy with our decision, and a lot of people look down on us for that." . I would guess that this is a pretty accurate description of how you feel. So I encourage you, if it's what you truly believe, to confront your teammates and take control. Yes, this post is a start, but if you really feel you can help the team perform better than they are currently, show us, don't tell us. Don't forget that Liquid were (one of) the first teams to bring Visage into competitive Dota 2 (back at TI2 as CoL). You guys also brought Slark to the competitive scene and ET. You guys have always thrived being innovators and with creativity and cohesion as the core of your gameplay. Stop trying to fit into the mold and draft what everyone else is drafting. Dare to be different and be confident in your own strategies. I'll be here rooting for you guys. Liquid fighting! | ||
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Hds
France200 Posts
FLUFF go fucking lead this team, there is nothing to lose now, there was a time I was watching every Liquid games because of GOOD games, I didn't even know about anyone of you, nothing, but then I made my homeworks, and I even more appreciated you all. Now I find myself laughing at Liquid's match, I shouldn't, but that's how I feel when I watch your games, last throw at the Monster's drove me crazy against EG. Something needs to change, I want to be proud of TL, I want to be proud of my TL pennant, I want Tl to makes me fall in love with you again #nohomo, please, deserve your TI invitation, FLUFF, Bulba, Way2sexy, Qoqjva, and TC, I want to believe in you like I did, like less than a year ago. On March 12 2014 21:58 SiZ.FaNtAsY wrote: This is attention-whoring at its finest. Really? So he should shut his mouth and let TL stuck in the shit they are? 5 months until TI4, you can do it | ||
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Kabras
Romania3508 Posts
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Chiara_T
Indonesia3 Posts
so fluff has to be the leader in liquid, and no other can? | ||
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joker101
United States47 Posts
"Blog basically says: - I should of been leader, not you, this is why we lose. - Team doesn't like me  . I have good ideas but I am too quiet to speak up. I should be leader doe.- Whinge, teenage angstiness - Team shouldn't get an invite to TI (LOL). Thanks sponsors for your commitment! - I write 9000 words bios on why I should be captain. THIS DISPLAYS GOOD LEADERSHIP. I'm unable to position myself correctly within a small team to lead them to victory doe. - I don't have respect of my team, but I should be leader. - Whinge whinge whinge - Team doesn't communicate properly, but I think I can fix it by being the leader. I'll do this through my astounding communications skills. Introverts make the best leaders. - To show my amazing leadership skills, I'll write a blog and air the whole teams dirty laundry instead of discussing it in meeting. This will inspire confidence and grow trust/friendships within the team. - Veiled threats to leave if it doesn't get fixed. - Significant round-a-bout delegation of blame. - Admits to basically throwing in tournaments and wanting to lose. THAT WILL HELP THE TEAM. But, I am trying to help them bros. Let's endure losses during tournaments, that will teach you a lesson and help us grow. - More whinging. Kid I don't even think you could manage the counter at McDonalds. Leadership is for the strong willed, not introverted little boys who write tumblr-esk diatribe on their teams official page. How embarrassing." Well then. | ||
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quannguyen
Vietnam1390 Posts
Talk to your team, share with them everything and ask for their opinions. Don't just do things all by yourself. Liquid needs to change, you need to change, and now's the right time to do it! | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On March 12 2014 22:29 Hds wrote: FUCK THIS FLUFF go fucking lead this team, there is nothing to lose now, there was a time I was watching every Liquid games because of GOOD games, I didn't even know about anyone of you, nothing, but then I made my homeworks, and I even more appreciated you all. Now I find myself laughing at Liquid's match, I shouldn't, but that's how I feel when I watch your games, last throw at the Monster's drove me crazy against EG. Something needs to change, I want to be proud of TL, I want to be proud of my TL pennant, I want Tl to makes me fall in love with you again #nohomo, please, deserve your TI invitation, FLUFF, Bulba, Way2sexy, Qoqjva, and TC, I want to believe in you like I did, like less than a year ago. Really? So he should shut his mouth and let TL stuck in the shit they are? 5 months until TI4, you can do it I don't think Fluff is the leader material he wants to be. Plus he seems to place too much importance on drafts and "leadership" and not enough on the actual hard parts of the game, like training teamwork, game sense, tactical thinking. None of those appear magically just because you have a strong leader. I do not think Liquid has anyone that can fill the leadership role. Either they will manage to train the hard skills without a strong leader (as many teams seem to do) and resolve their internal issues or they will need to get someone who has those skills or they can acknowledge that the team is just not working. | ||
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Fishriot
United States621 Posts
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Laurens
Belgium4541 Posts
On March 12 2014 22:10 CruelZeratul wrote: What I absolutely don't get is this drafting thin. I would think that chosing a drafter is a pure formality and that the 5 guys in TS talk every decision through until they find a solution. I find it very strange that just one person does his own thing and the others have to stfu. You are time-constrained in a draft. If the drafter is trying to think and the 4 others are shouting different suggestions at him it becomes really hard to keep the overall picture. One 'main' drafter and a second guy who pays attention and is able to offer suggestions seems like a good method to me. Of course it requires excellent knowledge of the 3 other players but that should not be a problem. | ||
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SiZ.FaNtAsY
Korea (South)1497 Posts
On March 12 2014 22:29 Hds wrote: FUCK THIS FLUFF go fucking lead this team, there is nothing to lose now, there was a time I was watching every Liquid games because of GOOD games, I didn't even know about anyone of you, nothing, but then I made my homeworks, and I even more appreciated you all. Now I find myself laughing at Liquid's match, I shouldn't, but that's how I feel when I watch your games, last throw at the Monster's drove me crazy against EG. Something needs to change, I want to be proud of TL, I want to be proud of my TL pennant, I want Tl to makes me fall in love with you again #nohomo, please, deserve your TI invitation, FLUFF, Bulba, Way2sexy, Qoqjva, and TC, I want to believe in you like I did, like less than a year ago. Really? So he should shut his mouth and let TL stuck in the shit they are? 5 months until TI4, you can do it He should say it to his team and only his team. I see no benefit and see this as detrimental to the team making this public. Edit: Might as well kick Fluff and add 1437 to Liquid. You can see from Behind the Horse TC was never comfortable being the leader cause of Fluff always wanting to dictate stuff. I'd rather have 1437 play the 4 role and have TC properly captain for the first time. | ||
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pNRG
United States333 Posts
On March 12 2014 22:40 joker101 wrote: Needed to be reposted: "Blog basically says: - I should of been leader, not you, this is why we lose. - Team doesn't like me . I have good ideas but I am too quiet to speak up. I should be leader doe.- Whinge, teenage angstiness - Team shouldn't get an invite to TI (LOL). Thanks sponsors for your commitment! - I write 9000 words bios on why I should be captain. THIS DISPLAYS GOOD LEADERSHIP. I'm unable to position myself correctly within a small team to lead them to victory doe. - I don't have respect of my team, but I should be leader. - Whinge whinge whinge - Team doesn't communicate properly, but I think I can fix it by being the leader. I'll do this through my astounding communications skills. Introverts make the best leaders. - To show my amazing leadership skills, I'll write a blog and air the whole teams dirty laundry instead of discussing it in meeting. This will inspire confidence and grow trust/friendships within the team. - Veiled threats to leave if it doesn't get fixed. - Significant round-a-bout delegation of blame. - Admits to basically throwing in tournaments and wanting to lose. THAT WILL HELP THE TEAM. But, I am trying to help them bros. Let's endure losses during tournaments, that will teach you a lesson and help us grow. - More whinging. Kid I don't even think you could manage the counter at McDonalds. Leadership is for the strong willed, not introverted little boys who write tumblr-esk diatribe on their teams official page. How embarrassing." Well then. Vouch. This whole thing rubs me the wrong way. Time for a major shift at Liquid DotA. | ||
intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
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zul
Germany5427 Posts
Good Luck solving your issues. | ||
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Testuser
6469 Posts
The world has never been about what you can do, it's about what you do. I'm not gonna put my faith in your leadership, because I simply don't think you'll change. But I hope you do. Good luck with everything. | ||
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s.a.y
Croatia3840 Posts
On March 12 2014 23:00 intrigue wrote: can you imagine a leader you'd respect posting something like this publicly? my thoughts also. this catharsis will probably be the saving grace or the end for current liquid team. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On March 12 2014 22:34 Kabras wrote: Liquid has bigger and more obvious problems than who's drafting, who's the leader and other stuff that doesn't show on the big screen. Fix your coordination and most importantly land your goddamn spells, then worry about deeper shit. it's really embarrassing (or should be at least) to write a huge wall of text about everything but individual play when you miss 3 arrows with a disruption setup in the span of a few minutes. that's just an example, someone screws up easy shit every game. Wake the hell up, right now Bulba and Qojqva are the only players on Liquid that can compete with euro and chinese players. While that is a valid concern you have to take into account that a team's atmosphere and people personal issues affect their play. I can imagine it being hard to play to your full potential when you feel constant pressure and helplessness. I'm much like Fluff in terms of being introverted yet competetive, striving for the best, constant self-consciousness and thought. I have a hard time handling my parents' expectations, let alone having to hold TL's banners in a super competetive (judgmental) environment AND one's own relentless expectation. I'd really love to see an actual team. Despite Liquid having a teddybear status in esports, with the nature of online gaming and the people it attracts, even their family isn't that much of a team. Being physically remote from another makes it really hard to bond and online culture isn't very well suited to sharing actual thoughts. When there's no cohestion or common purpose there's too much room for small annoyances to grow and interfere with the simplest of things. Whenever a new team is formed the members should really be thrown out in the forest together for a week to figure it out themselves. As it is though, I believe there's no ways to fund such a thing besides donations, which creates unwanted pressure. @Fluff I think there's much to be positive about, it's impressive you'd care so much that you write such a vulnerable piece. That non-bullshit modus is very key to getting what you want I think. | ||
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Romitelli
Brunei Darussalam566 Posts
On March 12 2014 23:04 zul wrote: there may be different ways of leadership, but all In know is this: A Leader will lead and show his leadership publicly. Good Luck solving your issues. Do you think this blog post is an acceptable way of "showing" his leadership publicly? It accomplishes nothing aside from exposing an already fragilized team structure. In professional sports, players and staff have been benched, suspended or even outright fired for public statements much less incendiary in tone. A blog post such as this should only have been made after the fact, i.e., exposing the problem and the solution after it has been dealt with internally. | ||
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pcLume
United States79 Posts
Negativity and apprehension will kill every hope and dream you have ever had and unfortunately every word you wrote here sounds like you have been negative and hesitant from day 1. Winners don't go into tournaments hoping to learn and grow. They don't "expect to fail" or "want to fail" when shit goes south. If you don't want to be labeled as emo I suggest you go back and read what you've posted here and give us a reason to think otherwise. This post is absolutely ridiculous and it honestly sounds like the problem right from the beginning has been you. | ||
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
On March 12 2014 23:00 intrigue wrote: can you imagine a leader you'd respect posting something like this publicly? Yeah, pretty absurd in my eyes. Should have been discussed with team and management. Certainly not in this format. | ||
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ArhK
France287 Posts
I don't want to judge, but I feel like Fluff doesn't have the slightest idea about how real life with a team oriented job works. All I see in this blog post is some sort of emo self pity, "I am a great leader but no one understands me....". From the blog ; "I'm a strong person, but I'm also someone who demands respect and trust". There lies the problem, in real life you never demand respect and trust, you fucking EARN IT. | ||
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noulss
France353 Posts
The parts that annoy me the most are the fact that you interfered with TC's draft when the team become better just to satisfy your ego, which led to poorer results. That's not what a so-called leader do, a true leader wants and does what's best for his team, not satisfying his own needs before his mates. Bye Fluff, i don't think you deserve the TL tag anymore. ps : sorry for poor english, im french :^p | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On March 12 2014 23:20 Darpa wrote: Yeah, pretty absurd in my eyes. Should have been discussed with team and management. Certainly not in this format. Why? That's such political bullshit, I'm glad to know there's actual people on Liquid. | ||
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YourGoodFriend
United States2197 Posts
Here's to hope! | ||
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herman.
Brazil1 Post
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Shai
Canada806 Posts
On March 12 2014 23:21 ArhK wrote: No offense, but after reading it I had to find out how old Liquid Fluff is. I feel sorry that he isn't feeling well, but this blog is incredibly immature and childish. I don't want to judge, but I feel like Fluff doesn't have the slightest idea about how real life with a team oriented job works. All I see in this blog post is some sort of emo self pity, "I am a great leader but no one understands me....". From the blog ; "I'm a strong person, but I'm also someone who demands respect and trust". There lies the problem, in real life you never demand respect and trust, you fucking EARN IT. And as the captain of the amazing Fire as well as a fantastic support during TI3 he hasnt I suppose? Anyway this is obviously a vent/rant intentionally made public so thr team can wake up and either boot fluff or make drastic changes. I grt the impression he'd be fine with either. To those who say leadership and drafting arent important, I'd like to submit that even when NaVis individual skill fails during some tournaments it's Puppey's leadership and drafting that get them through (Im not ignorant of the individual skill on NaVi but sometimes theyre too throw-y). | ||
Waxangel
United States33369 Posts
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DwmC_Foefen
Belgium2186 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On March 12 2014 22:50 SiZ.FaNtAsY wrote: He should say it to his team and only his team. I see no benefit and see this as detrimental to the team making this public. Edit: Might as well kick Fluff and add 1437 to Liquid. You can see from Behind the Horse TC was never comfortable being the leader cause of Fluff always wanting to dictate stuff. I'd rather have 1437 play the 4 role and have TC properly captain for the first time. From this blog it sounds like the team is suffering from lack of trust in each other - and that lack of trust was actually valid if fluff wasn't putting in a full commitment because he thought they would fail without him as "leader". Actually I'm not entirely sure what he means by "leader." Is it making in-game calls or choosing engagements? Because that seems like something much more important but I also don't see any reason you need a formal role where someone is chosen to do that, as opposed to having the team actually communicate. And anyway, this blog seems to talk more about drafting as the formal sign of being the team leader. Like, changing the drafter can only solve one problem - bad drafts. Liquid has not been losing because of bad drafts, at least most of the time. | ||
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YourGoodFriend
United States2197 Posts
On March 12 2014 23:19 Saechiis wrote: While that is a valid concern you have to take into account that a team's atmosphere and people personal issues affect their play. I can imagine it being hard to play to your full potential when you feel constant pressure and helplessness. I'm much like Fluff in terms of being introverted yet competetive, striving for the best, constant self-consciousness and thought. I have a hard time handling my parents' expectations, let alone having to hold TL's banners in a super competetive (judgmental) environment AND one's own relentless expectation. I'd really love to see an actual team. Despite Liquid having a teddybear status in esports, with the nature of online gaming and the people it attracts, even their family isn't that much of a team. Being physically remote from another makes it really hard to bond and online culture isn't very well suited to sharing actual thoughts. When there's no cohestion or common purpose there's too much room for small annoyances to grow and interfere with the simplest of things. Whenever a new team is formed the members should really be thrown out in the forest together for a week to figure it out themselves. As it is though, I believe there's no ways to fund such a thing besides donations, which creates unwanted pressure. @Fluff I think there's much to be positive about, it's impressive you'd care so much that you write such a vulnerable piece. That non-bullshit modus is very key to getting what you want I think. Agreed its one on the reason's I am really excited about Zephyer, the idea of learning to be friends and teammates is essential. Look at the best teams (NAVI, and Alliance) Dendi and Puppy have been friends for years and you can tell that they love to play together. Same for Akke and Loda being able to understand each other and enjoy each other goes a long way, even as far as to help you mechanically (hitting spells) confidence changes things a ton. | ||
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ScarPe
Germany392 Posts
On March 12 2014 23:21 ArhK wrote: No offense, but after reading it I had to find out how old Liquid Fluff is. I feel sorry that he isn't feeling well, but this blog is incredibly immature and childish. I don't want to judge, but I feel like Fluff doesn't have the slightest idea about how real life with a team oriented job works. All I see in this blog post is some sort of emo self pity, "I am a great leader but no one understands me....". From the blog ; "I'm a strong person, but I'm also someone who demands respect and trust". There lies the problem, in real life you never demand respect and trust, you fucking EARN IT. ### THIS ### after i have read this, i can tell you, that you shouldnt lead that team at all. go next door to the buisnessman, shopkeeper or whatever and ask him, how he leads his employees... it will come out that sth like: "i am highly empathetic and i always mind what my team does" will not get you anywhere near the top tiers. you have to reach the balance between what you need to do to achieve your goal and what your teammates want. and then everyone has to be totally fine with the outcome. the leader/boss sets the tone and everyone has to have the faith in you, that you will get him to that point you guys want to reach: if there is anyone who has concerns about this, you have to talk to him and make a clear standpoint. is he still concerned, he has to leave. an guess what? thats what i read there: you tried to play as a team, but you had a lot of concerns about how its done. i mean you still gave your best but in your mind there was always that little devil that told you: "this is wrong". look at any top tier team that has continously good results. everyone of them has faith in himself and in his teammates. it is NEVER like "we maybe win like this, but i would have done it differently" DO IT, dont just talk about it: DO! IT! thats your problem, you talk and talk and talk, but i think you never REALLY thought about discussing your concerns with your team and take the necessary consequences if you have the feeling, that this is not gonna work for you. | ||
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DaiWales
United Kingdom94 Posts
I understand Fluff's frustrations. As a team captain myself I've had to deal with many issues both in the game and out of the game, and when you're losing it's a hundred times worse. I can only imagine how bad it is to see your team humiliated almost every day when they play, and in those days you need someone to stand up and say 'bad day at the office; let's work hard tomorrow'. TC's interview was abject and depressing. Even the studio was asking who's leading the team and if Liquid are going to bounce back. TC just sat there and let them rip in to the team, without once sticking up for everyone and saying 'hey, we're all good players, but we need to sort this drafting out, and we will, so stick with us'. Liquid are one of the best supported teams in the world, completely contrary to their performances. They do need a captain to take control and tell everyone to STFU and listen. Their drafts are not utilising the current meta correctly, and they're being swiftly punished for it. Whether than captain should be Fluff is another question. It will only work if the rest of the team back down and relax, and let Fluff take control. I just don't think they would after this blog post, so I'm expecting a particular announcement soon... | ||
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DevilofDeath
United States73 Posts
You guys got 2-0'd against EG this weekend and it would be the shittiest excuse to say "Arteezy is the best player in the world and their team is streaking hot, nothing we can do about it." That is absolute bullshit. You guys have been around long enough to be able to work out your differences and be the best team in NA right now. It pains me to watch you guys struggle and I do believe you would not get an International invite right now. Hell it is hard to imagine C9, EG and Liquid all getting into TI4. Make the leadership changes, get into the others' faces when you don't win a game even if it is just a regular ranked game. There is absolutely no reason for you guys to feel like "OK we've done it, can't get better than we are". Treat every game like it's a finals match for the money and try to dominate every game. And those who don't take it as seriously should be removed from the team because they're not doing any good for the team by not wanting to win every single game. | ||
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Nedereden
777 Posts
On March 12 2014 23:33 Waxangel wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZarmRLa2p9Q Wats that mean? Its refreshing to have some one come out and write something so gut-wrenchingly REAL. Only people who've gone through similar things know how it is. And most just choose to say "it doesn't matter' thus trying to trivialize something we should deal with head on. Kinda reminds me of some of MightyAtom Hyungs blogs... Here we have someone with the gumption to actually wear his heart on his sleeve. I'm gonna say that from my side if Fluffs gonna lead Liquid with even half the balls it took to put this blog out hes got my full support. God knows Liquid needs this shock therapy. GO FLUFF! | ||
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Count9
China10928 Posts
I've shown absolutely no leadership qualities for the past 4 months. In fact, I've shown I'd rather hurt the team and have them fail so I could try to assume leadership than work as a team under another leader because I think I'm the best person to lead the team. Despite all of that, I should be leader and because I'm not leader we're losing. If I'm not made leader I'm leaving the team and fuck over my teammates and the (albeit small) chance we get invited to TI. LGD changed their players after invites were announced and still got a qualifier invite so it's fine to kick this clown. I don't care so much about performing in game at a specific point in time since I think potential is more important but actively hoping your team would lose is an absolutely unacceptable attitude and definitely affected his play on a subconscious level. Worse, it doesn't look like it will change unless the selfish brat gets his way. Get rid of him and whoever else wants to follow him out and then get people who actually enjoy playing dota with each other for TL. Good luck finding 4 teammates who won't care as soon as you start doing badly they get flamed in a blog. (what's sneyking been doing?) | ||
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suicideyear
Ivory Coast3016 Posts
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NeThZOR
South Africa7387 Posts
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beesinyoface
2450 Posts
On March 12 2014 13:55 Liquid`FLUFF wrote: We have Wayto doing drafts now and he hasn't really had a chance to prove his ability as a captain, however It didn't take me long to see that history will repeat itself again after our last LAN. I'm going to fail and I'm going to fail hard, you're going my way or the high way and at some point we will realize our true potential as a team. I know it's been said already in the previous pages, but sentences like this really, really make me scratch my head. Before TL 2.0 you were playing pretty damn well at support and it was true Mike was the weakest link on the team. With 2.0 though, I honestly think the tables have turned. It's true that WTS needs a bit of advice/direction on support since he's more comfortable with the carry role (based on his stream,) but I think you've honestly missed the point where your play has been quite honestly terrible for many weeks now. There's a ton of things that could come from a blog like this, but I honestly don't see them going in a favorable direction. At the end of the day, someone who sits idly by "hoping" the team fails so you can push your agenda in some weird aggressive email airing your dirty laundry is just childish, and I don't think you're a proper fit for the team going forward. | ||
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woojaekeem
United States524 Posts
At the end of the day Fluff's blog only has empty, melodramatic rhetoric and legitimate, or delusional, notions of grandeur and success. That's not enough to be a leader. A leader doesn't feel the need to publicly vent or rant on private issues without first addressing problems internally to their full extent. You don't couple underlying threats of departure if things don't go your way with demands for the right to lead. The right to lead is earned, not taken. It's willfully given by those that believe in you. Someone doesn't have to be a close friend of yours to respect you in a professional manner, or to believe in your capacity to be a captain. Fluff talks about his experience on FIRE and other teams as justification for him taking the reins here, but at the end of the day those teams are not liquid, and those players were not TC, Bulba, Wayto and Qojqva. Imagine if you were TC or Wayto and you woke up to Fluff demanding control and leadership, whilst also decrying and showing complete lack of faith in your ability to draft, captain or serve as an in-game leader. That kind of action only sows mistrust, insecurity and resentment. A true leader knows how to benevolently address everyone's concerns without forcing the issue by putting it in the public eye. Fluff puts on an act of blaming himself and taking accountability throughout the blog, but at the end of the day it's just a pitch for why he thinks he should be, and always was, the best captain for the team. If you were truly meant to lead you wouldn't have to make a pitch like that, and you wouldn't have remained quiet for so long. You would have inspired, elevated and supported your teammates when the going started to get tough, rather than publicly exposing things they may not want in the open for the sake of your own emotional satisfaction. Lead with actions of unity and guidance. Don't let yourself succumb to this kind of petulant emotional maelstrom. Any man who must say, "I am the king" is no true king. | ||
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Count9
China10928 Posts
On March 13 2014 00:29 beesinyoface wrote: I know it's been said already in the previous pages, but sentences like this really, really make me scratch my head. Before TL 2.0 you were playing pretty damn well at support and it was true Mike was the weakest link on the team. With 2.0 though, I honestly think the tables have turned. It's true that WTS needs a bit of advice/direction on support since he's more comfortable with the carry role (based on his stream,) but I think you've honestly missed the point where your play has been quite honestly terrible for many weeks now. There's a ton of things that could come from a blog like this, but I honestly don't see them going in a favorable direction. At the end of the day, someone who sits idly by "hoping" the team fails so you can push your agenda in some weird aggressive email airing your dirty laundry is just childish, and I don't think you're a proper fit for the team going forward. Let's be honest here, he didn't "see" anything. He was, from the onset, convinced wayto isn't as good a leader as himself and actively hoped they lose to "prove" it. The guy was an ok player on complexity where they were the best na team when na didn't have a scene. His ego exceeds his ability by miles. | ||
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Yasawa
Belgium5 Posts
When I played with bigger names I didn't feel trusted or respected enough to lead (i.e. had a hard time getting people to listen to me and respect me due to my introverted kind of nature) and if someone else was leading I mostly wouldn't agree with that persons game plan / approach to the game and it created an internal clash that will lead to bad results. It seems this is exactly what has happened to Team Liquid. I think the mistake here is FLUFF staying with the team for too long. Either he would have had to restructure the team the way he wanted to after TI3 or he should have left the team. Now he's stuck in this impossible situation where he is hindering himself and his team from ultimate success. It's too late to fix now because TI4 invites will be going out soon and a roster change would probably disqualify the team so it's really a lose-lose situation for both the team and FLUFF. The best thing would probably be for FLUFF to sit this one out and come back after TI4 with his own team while Liquid find someone more suited to replace him. Anyway, always interesting to hear a pro players inner thoughts and what's really going on within a team. EDIT: Read bits of "The Clockwork Project" now and gotta say I am even more like you than I thought. I, too, fought and still fight depression and anxiety. I, too, dropped out of school for a period of time because of depression. Suicidal thoughts are always in the back of my head. I also don't care about wealth at all and have a very strict standard that I hold myself, but also other people, to, which essentially means people very rarely live up to my expectations and that has been a major problem in my life. I wish I could meet you one day, I bet we'd be good friends and have that instant connection seeing how much alike we are. We'd probably have plenty of constructive and profound conversations about this and that. Oh well, too bad I'm a european nobody in the dota scene ^^ | ||
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wuhan_clan
United States5609 Posts
It's obvious that TC in the leadership role wasn't cutting it. But that doesn't mean you go around being passive aggressive and talking shit about the team behind its back. Why the fuck does this blog even exist? It's like this is the first time anyone's ever had to be a part of a team in their life. Fluff needs to GO TALK TO HIS TEAM instead of being a whiny emo little kid feeling sorry for himself !!! The guy may have valid points when talking about his teams approach to Dota, but if he wants to lead, this is the wrong way to go about it and the wrong attitude to have. Keep in mind, he voluntarily gave up captain to TC who despite not being good, still showed results leading the team. TL's core problems have absolutely nothing to do with Dota. It's about taking accountability, responsibility, and just doing the right thing for the team, even if it means personal sacrifices. This goes for everyone, not just Fluff. Everyone needs to commit to each other 100%, whether they are the leader or not. It's all about growing up and becoming a man. There's still time to cut the bullshit and turn this shitty situation around before TI4. But they need to communicate to each other that they even want to turn it around and are willing to do whatever it takes. Otherwise they should just disband right now instead of wasting everyone's time. [edit] It's teams like TL who can really benefit from having a team house with a dedicated coach/manager. It seems like if they aren't forced to be around each other, problems simply never get addressed ever. Kinda like how long distance relationships almost never work. | ||
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TheDuke42
United States5 Posts
On March 12 2014 15:03 Caladbolg wrote: Maybe the team is just full of too many "egos." But hey that's what people say about DK, Na'Vi, etc. and they're still able to function really well. " They are able to function and at a high level because in navi's case they are all big egos and great players but they all are behind puppy as a leader, DK is behind their leader and that leader makes the calls(note can't say who their leader is but you can tell) ~TheDuke4233~ liquid Fighting | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On March 13 2014 00:30 woojaekeem wrote: A real leader would take some kind of decisive action, whether forcing some kind of private, internal discussion on the issue at hand or making in-team adjustments to their playstyle and methodology. At the end of the day Fluff's blog only has empty, melodramatic rhetoric and legitimate, or delusional, notions of grandeur and success. That's not enough to be a leader. A leader doesn't feel the need to publicly vent or rant on private issues without first addressing problems internally to their full extent. You don't couple underlying threats of departure if things don't go your way with demands for the right to lead. The right to lead is earned, not taken. It's willfully given by those that believe in you. Someone doesn't have to be a close friend of yours to respect you in a professional manner, or to believe in your capacity to be a captain. Fluff talks about his experience on FIRE and other teams as justification for him taking the reins here, but at the end of the day those teams are not liquid, and those players were not TC, Bulba, Wayto and Qojqva. Imagine if you were TC or Wayto and you woke up to Fluff demanding control and leadership, whilst also decrying and showing complete lack of faith in your ability to draft, captain or serve as an in-game leader. That kind of action only sows mistrust, insecurity and resentment. A true leader knows how to benevolently address everyone's concerns without forcing the issue by putting it in the public eye. Fluff puts on an act of blaming himself and taking accountability throughout the blog, but at the end of the day it's just a pitch for why he thinks he should be, and always was, the best captain for the team. If you were truly meant to lead you wouldn't have to make a pitch like that, and you wouldn't have remained quiet for so long. You would have inspired, elevated and supported your teammates when the going started to get tough, rather than publicly exposing things they may not want in the open for the sake of your own emotional satisfaction. Lead with actions of unity and guidance. Don't let yourself succumb to this kind of petulant emotional maelstrom. Any man who must say, "I am the king" is no true king. I dislike all this talk about some kind of transcendent leader. The notion that you're either born a leader or not is such a moviescript reality. This Captain America'esque always knows what to do leader doesn't exist in real life, as Fluff has argued in his previous blogs, there's just people who rise to the occasion. I know it's popular to paint progamers as gods in their game's realm, but they continue to exist in reality. There's no amount of dedication that would allow them to train for days without sleep, no amount of will that can force a team to perform or a person to suck it up when he's had enough. This is the reaon why everyone hates the Korean Starcraft interviews, because there's always these impersonal political answers that we know are bullshit. Yet when a Liquid player opens up there's this negative backlash, why? Because the reality of the situation isn't in line with the perceived Liquid heroes? In reality this has been going on for more than a year, maybe this is the only way to break the equilibrium of political let's not say anything and pretend we're on our way to win TI4. | ||
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HeadlessWonder
United States1096 Posts
Plus, We have Wayto doing drafts now and he hasn't really had a chance to prove his ability as a captain, however It didn't take me long to see that history will repeat itself again after our last LAN. Imagine if/when Wayto reads that. I couldn't be on a team with someone willing to openly say things like that. Publicly talking bad about teammates is being a bad teammate, and not a quality a team should be looking for in a captain. | ||
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woojaekeem
United States524 Posts
On March 13 2014 01:06 Saechiis wrote: I dislike all this talk about some kind of transcendent leader. The notion that you're either born a leader or not is such a moviescript reality. This Captain America'esque always knows what to do leader doesn't exist in real life, as Fluff has argued in his previous blogs, there's just people who rise to the occasion. I know it's popular to paint progamers as gods in their game's realm, but they continue to exist in reality. There's no amount of dedication that would allow them to train for days without sleep, no amount of will that can force a team to perform or a person to suck it up when he's had enough. This is the reaon why everyone hates the Korean Starcraft interviews, because there's always these impersonal political answers that we know are bullshit. Yet when a Liquid player opens up there's this negative backlash, why? Because the reality of the situation isn't in line with the perceived Liquid heroes? In reality this has been going on for more than a year, maybe this is the only way to break the equilibrium of political let's not say anything and pretend we're on our way to win TI4. There's a huge distinction between being honest with the public and airing dirty laundry without the rest of your team's consent. I never said that I expected them to be perfect, but publicly undermining your current captain and teammates while lionizing yourself is unacceptable. It's not about being a transcendent leader. It's about having the ability to address your team's interests and gain their respect without exacerbating the whole situation as a result of your need to satisfy some childish need for public catharsis. No one's asking Fluff to be the Nelson Mandela of Dota, but he should at least have the tact to understand basic principles of leadership if he's going to demand authority. | ||
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Geisterkarle
Germany3257 Posts
I was "always" wondering. I read in many interviews with other DOTA2 players, that Fluff helped them and gave advice and so on. With that in mind I always thought very high of Fluff and his skill and knowledge of the game. But just a few days/week back this "Behind the Horse" documentation was released. And Fluff was somehow laid back and quiet for my interpretation ... I imagined him quite different! This post now is clearing this up - for good or bad .... I'm curious, what happens in the next few weeks/months! | ||
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lilopuppy
Philippines542 Posts
The team failing left and right reduced from Tier 1 to Tier clowns and the management seems to be fine just sitting on their asses writing funneh satire. Weak promises at TeamLiquidpro, no one making an initiative. I might have come off as trollish for being too critical even I have doubts of my real intentions, but after this, it seems I was having good foresight. Worst Dota 2 coverage by far for a site that prides itself on being a Dota 2 website, even Dotatalk has more content. Considering how SC2 is dying, I find myself scratching my head why Dota 2 news barely scratches 2% of community news. I now know why, Liquid just couldn't give shit about Dota, they're too busy making themselves to look like the nice guys of esports. Worst, the fans don't care niether, you only see Heyoka and TheEmulator doing community posts. Fuck, I'm done with Liquid the team and the site. Considering Fluff's gonna be fired after this, I guess he probably will be too, SC2 will always be it's baby, and once that ship has sunk, you could turn into TeamLoLquid and hire XDG Gaming for all I care. Hell, you're LoL section has more decent articles than Dota 2. And you know what, I did feel bad when you couldn't deliver your promise on "not being content about being good" but that was when I still cared. + Show Spoiler + pls no banhammerino+ Show Spoiler + actually you know what, do what you like, delete my post whatever, I'm just a nobody User was temp banned for martyring: "actually you know what, do what you like, delete my post whatever, I'm just a nobody". martyring is an automatic ban, but the rest of your post was fine. | ||
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Testuser
6469 Posts
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makmeatt
2024 Posts
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Hellbat
223 Posts
On March 13 2014 01:22 lilopuppy wrote: This just confirms what I knew all along: Liquid Dota is dead. The team failing left and right reduced from Tier 1 to Tier clowns and the management seems to be fine just sitting on their asses writing funneh satire. Weak promises at TeamLiquidpro, no one making an initiative. I might have come off as trollish for being too critical even I have doubts of my real intentions, but after this, it seems I was having good foresight. Worst Dota 2 coverage by far for a site that prides itself on being a Dota 2 website, even Dotatalk has more content. Considering how SC2 is dying, I find myself scratching my head why Dota 2 news barely scratches 2% of community news. I now know why, Liquid just couldn't give shit about Dota, they're too busy making themselves to look like the nice guys of esports. Worst, the fans don't care niether, you only see Heyoka and TheEmulator doing community posts. Fuck, I'm done with Liquid the team and the site. Considering Fluff's gonna be fired after this, I guess he probably will be too, SC2 will always be it's baby, and once that ship has sunk, you could turn into TeamLoLquid and hire XDG Gaming for all I care. Hell, you're LoL section has more decent articles than Dota 2. And you know what, I did feel bad when you couldn't deliver your promise on "not being content about being good" but that was when I still cared. + Show Spoiler + pls no banhammerino+ Show Spoiler + actually you know what, do what you like, delete my post whatever, I'm just a nobody Yeah I agree myself, TL is a great starcraft site and they have a good starcraft team but in terms of DotA? Very subpar. I appreciate the content that does come out but I then I go to the front page and see the last featured news post was almost from a week ago. They're not giving me a reason to visit this website over others in terms of DotA content. | ||
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Eternalobi
Canada220 Posts
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AwfuL_
Netherlands6976 Posts
On March 13 2014 01:34 Eternalobi wrote: What I mean is players like Arteezy, Mushi win games. That's why the old EG was bad not because they had bad friendship/leadership, they had bad players. Plain and simple. I am not saying your team has bad players, but if I look at Liquid roster and I wouldn't believe they will win anything major. Really disagree, There is no skill problem on Liquid. Names are made by success. If problems in the team prevent success then how can these players make a name for themselves? If your post was true then a team like Fnatic would've never won anything. | ||
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klopetra
35 Posts
On March 13 2014 01:40 AwfuL_ wrote: Really disagree, There is no skill problem on Liquid. Names are made by success. If problems in the team prevent success then how can these players make a name for themselves? If your post was true then a team like Fnatic would've never won anything. The fuck? Fnatic has very talented players. Hanni was in the dota-proscene before it was cool. I would agree with that statement. Look at Na'vi. Raw individual skill clearly wins tournaments. | ||
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synapse
China13814 Posts
I'm hoping this can become one of those things (like EE's old post on going pro) where we can look back and say hey, not everyone thought this was the right thing to do but it worked out in the end. Best of luck to Fluff and TL. | ||
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DavoS
United States4605 Posts
On March 12 2014 16:49 Julmust wrote: ... the problem was pretty much clear from the "Behind the Horse" documentary. Now I'm sure it doesn't show the full picture, but when Hot_Bid was lecturing you all there was no reaction. And that's the worst thing that can happen in a situation like that. Sometimes you need to have a huge blow out. That's exactly what I was thinking. Granted it might not apply to Wayto and Qojqva but I agree that Hotbid was explaining the problems you guys had and nobody said or did anything other than when Mike joked that you guys would at least finish higher than Dignitas. It's good that you've admitted that there are huge issues on the team, and I can even understand doing it in a fashion that means the management on Team Liquid is going to have to do something about it one way or another, but it's not good that you guys were willing to perform below standards for so long and not discuss what was wrong before doing something like this. I don't really know what Liquid as a team and as an organization can do at this point besides a shuffle, and that definitely scuttles any chance of an invite to TI. TI3 Liquid was my favorite team to root for, I hope it can resurface :/ Edit: also, part of what has made Liquid look less dominant, in my opinion, is that Fluff stopped being a playmaker. Fluff used to be one of my favorite supports to learn from. I remember when he first used a harpy to firstblood Bulldog, or when he stole enchant to turn around an enchantress centaur gank. And the huge CM ult at Rosh in the game vs LGD. But fluff hasn't done anything like that since the very early days of Liquid 2.0. Knowing it was intentional has made it hard for me to look at Fluff as a role model. | ||
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Bryce241
Zimbabwe80 Posts
FLUFF mentioned that he talked to Blitz before posting this rant and he also talked about how he experienced "true happiness" again when he drafted for 4 Asians + 1. That team was composed of Blitz, Eosin, Purge, Lumi and FLUFF. 3 of them are now in Team Zephyr (currently in Korea dominating Tier8 Korean teams, won ~$60k USD). Blitz also mentioned in an interview that FLUFF helped them a lot (watching replays, analyzing gameplay etc) when they lost 2-3 to EoT.Hammer. What if Blitz told FLUFF that he has a spot on the team if he ever wanted it and pushed him to post this "career-ending blog post"? I imagine it would be tough to get out of his contract with Team Liquid and the quickest way to get out of it would be to get fired. The big question is: Who does FLUFF replace on Team Zephr? Probably Purge as he is the most low skilled and he would just transition to a Manager. I just don't see Purge as a pro player (given his age and current skill level) and being a Manager would be more fitting. My guess is: FLUFF ends up joining Team Zephyr. As Captain and Drafter he would again experience "true happiness" (his words) and lead his team against Tier8 Korean teams. | ||
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Nedereden
777 Posts
On March 13 2014 01:06 Saechiis wrote: I dislike all this talk about some kind of transcendent leader. The notion that you're either born a leader or not is such a moviescript reality. This Captain America'esque always knows what to do leader doesn't exist in real life, as Fluff has argued in his previous blogs, there's just people who rise to the occasion. I know it's popular to paint progamers as gods in their game's realm, but they continue to exist in reality. There's no amount of dedication that would allow them to train for days without sleep, no amount of will that can force a team to perform or a person to suck it up when he's had enough. This is the reaon why everyone hates the Korean Starcraft interviews, because there's always these impersonal political answers that we know are bullshit. Yet when a Liquid player opens up there's this negative backlash, why? Because the reality of the situation isn't in line with the perceived Liquid heroes? In reality this has been going on for more than a year, maybe this is the only way to break the equilibrium of political let's not say anything and pretend we're on our way to win TI4. Ah. Finally. Someone who also has gone thru some real life stuff themselves and understands how important it is to have real people in the scene rather than dolled up androids. Fluff didnt need to do any of this. I understand the problems that the team and the administration may have with it but I think it all pales in the face of how much raw passion to succeed he shows. Wud back him any day of the week. Just need the others to believe and Liquid should be back. Also, individual skill was never a problem with this team. Bulba, qojva, TC, Fluff and Wayto are all top-tier. As was Korok. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On March 13 2014 01:10 woojaekeem wrote: There's a huge distinction between being honest with the public and airing dirty laundry without the rest of your team's consent. I never said that I expected them to be perfect, but publicly undermining your current captain and teammates while lionizing yourself is unacceptable. It's not about being a transcendent leader. It's about having the ability to address your team's interests and gain their respect without exacerbating the whole situation as a result of your need to satisfy some childish need for public catharsis. No one's asking Fluff to be the Nelson Mandela of Dota, but he should at least have the tact to understand basic principles of leadership if he's going to demand authority. Calling Fluff's truth "dirty laundry" doesn't make it dishonest, you're adding your opinion on the matter painting it black. I think you're going to be hard pressed to make a case where Fluff doesn't want his team to succeed and make it to TI4. You don't wan to set a precedent where a progamer speaks his mind and he gets shunned by the community for being open about his troubles. Clearly he was in need to post this blog, if his teammates find it offensive that's their right and we'll see what happens, but why would other people be opposed to getting insight into the team? Or is it just when there's troubles that progamers should do "the honorable thing" and keep it bottled up inside? | ||
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syst
United States247 Posts
Peace out. | ||
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2stra
Netherlands928 Posts
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kevenka
United States1 Post
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taldarimAltar
973 Posts
Don't over think fluff. If you don't love it just quit, this will not help. EDIT: Another thing you should realise: when you were leader/drafter you felt that they don't trust/believe in your ability. But when TC leads, you doubt him and think you should be the one doing the job? Isn't that putting TC in the position you were in, where a team mate doesn't put his full faith in the leader? I would be really angry if I were TC. | ||
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Leeoku
1617 Posts
The only thing you can do now as a leader is to break the barriers. Gain trust find ways to improve team communication trust and synergy. Regardless of your play I respect you as a macro leader | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
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MavivaM
1535 Posts
A loss/loss scenario no matter his intentions | ||
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DarthBotto
United States72 Posts
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Daozzt
United States1263 Posts
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wuhan_clan
United States5609 Posts
On March 13 2014 02:35 Nedereden wrote: Ah. Finally. Someone who also has gone thru some real life stuff themselves and understands how important it is to have real people in the scene rather than dolled up androids. Fluff didnt need to do any of this. I understand the problems that the team and the administration may have with it but I think it all pales in the face of how much raw passion to succeed he shows. Wud back him any day of the week. Just need the others to believe and Liquid should be back. Also, individual skill was never a problem with this team. Bulba, qojva, TC, Fluff and Wayto are all top-tier. As was Korok. "Real people" ROFL this is the biggest joke of a term that has absolutely no meaning. So someone who publicly talks about all of his team's problems is a "real person". But someone who chose not to let the whole world know and tried to work it out internally with their team would not be "real". C'mon now. Let's be real :D It's clear the Fluff has a lot of passion, but it's also be misguided. Yes TL is performing terribly right now but why are people so quick to assume that Fluff has the solutions? Fluff voluntarily gave up captain to TC as soon as the team formed because he didn't have confidence in himself. And TL did have some success under TC. Now we're all supposed to believe that Fluff's visions are going to save the team? The person who admits to showing no leadership qualities? The person who admits that he hoped his leader would fail? But lets say that Fluff's ideas are the correct ones. Maybe if Fluff had more professionalism in dealing with his team, they might take him seriously. How can he expect people to respect his leadership when he hasn't respected his team? I certainly have no respect for this kid after reading this shit. | ||
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GranDGranT
Sri Lanka2141 Posts
Food for though, what if they kept Korok instead of Fluff? | ||
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Ansinjunger
United States2451 Posts
My anger lost me my last job, back in 2008. I'm sadly in the same business, but I still take a lot of pride in it. However, I've learned the hard way that too much anger will just backfire, like it did before. That doesn't mean I've become a leader, that when I more calmly express myself to my coworkers, that everything works out fine. I've shown them lower temps in the same piece of chicken they just temped (like a 30 or 40 degree difference), and they just shrug and do the same wrong thing the next day. People still do the same wrong stuff, and it's still infuriating, but what can I do besides set an example? I can make enemies of my coworkers. Maybe I could have gotten one fired by now, I don't know. I've seen what we hire for replacements though, and it usually isn't pretty. In fact, the good ones, and the pretty ones have all found new jobs. The starting wages suck; fortunately I'm well above those (obviously, it's still nothing to brag about, but livable). I also used to think I was practically irreplaceable. No one else takes the oil out. No one else cleans the dishwasher and finds lost utensils on a daily basis. It doesn't matter, you're replaceable. Where there is a void, people will find a way to fill it. Maybe a few more people get sick over the course of a year. Probably none of them die, and so one more complaint is lodged per year. They're not gonna think, "gee, we should have listened to that guy," or even if they do think it, they're not gonna reach out. A pro-gamer's skills may be a bit more hard to come by, and so you may be forgiven a few more times, but people like IdrA will still lose their jobs if they keep doing the things IdrA did. He was able to find work, but he wasn't the commodity he was in 2011. ' P.S. We have a pretty strong crew at my work, they're good most areas of their job. Temping isn't one. I also have my weaknesses. Unfortunately it's not as simple as people having varying strengths and weaknesses. Uncooked food is what it is. | ||
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Liquid`Zephyr
United States996 Posts
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GranDGranT
Sri Lanka2141 Posts
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pellejohnson
United States1931 Posts
On March 13 2014 04:32 GranDGranT wrote: But really, How has he not been kicked from Liquid yet after this? Good question but then again the whole Dota2 section seems pretty dead here on TL so I guess he might be kicked just that no one has bothered to mention it just like they don't mention anything else note worthy but god damnit if we have to hear about every random sc2 player retiring... | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On March 13 2014 04:32 GranDGranT wrote: But really, How has he not been kicked from Liquid yet after this? Because if he's getting the boot, Liquid are gonna handle it like adults and have a talk with him, figure out what the go forward plan is, and announce it properly once they know exactly what's happening instead of posting a knee-jerk reaction that they might regret later. | ||
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Slardar
Canada7593 Posts
Fluff, you really seem torn and contradicting. If you cannot commit 100% of your effort to another teammates crack at Captaining, then I'd find it hard for you to expect them to turn around and do the same. Your personality similar to mine, doesn't scream leadership capabilities. You've had your best success in DotA/HoN/whatever in that role, so it's probably hard for you to let go of it perhaps(?). Time to look in the mirror and evaluate yourself, and your characteristics. | ||
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Lodasrecedinhairline
United Kingdom165 Posts
Anyway, good luck. | ||
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Noobity
United States871 Posts
I didn't give a half a shit about Dota until Liquid decided to start a pro dota team. At that point I started to get really psyched. Everything seemed like it was going so well, the team seemed happy and we as fans were glad to accept you all for the quality of people that liquid provides. I understand they don't need to prove anything to me, but I've always felt that Liquid has provided the highest caliber of players and/or people to be under that banner. Today I really feel otherwise. Everyone has a shit day, everyone has a shit month, everyone has a shit year. What separates those that display the banner well from those that display the banner poorly is not doing everything right, it's doing the best they can and doing what they can to fix what they can't do themselves. This post really doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in the liquid brand in regards to dota. This makes me angry as someone who does his best to do what he can to support and rep liquid as a fan and community member. This post doesn't help your situation, it doesn't make you look good, and if nothing else you've lost a fan, which you wouldn't have lost without this post, so you did have something left to lose. Here's hoping the rest of Liquid can mop up this mess you made. Shame on you. | ||
fusefuse
Estonia4644 Posts
On March 13 2014 04:35 pellejohnson wrote: Good question but then again the whole Dota2 section seems pretty dead here on TL so I guess he might be kicked just that no one has bothered to mention it just like they don't mention anything else note worthy but god damnit if we have to hear about every random sc2 player retiring... Thats a bit far fetched dont you think | ||
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_SpiRaL_
Afghanistan1636 Posts
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Zhul
Czech Republic430 Posts
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 13 2014 04:55 _SpiRaL_ wrote: it seems from reading this that the main problem with Team Liquid, is Fluff himself .I'm afraid that he might have some ego problems in combination with a lack of confidence, which sounds weird at first, but apparently it's a lot more common than one would think. Imho he'd need to work on his ego to make sure that it has a smaller effect on his interpersonal relations first before he tries to lead something like a dota team (which is always a spawning pool for conflict, especially if you're in a slump), but if he has the patience to articulate his thoughts like that then I'm sure that he can work on his problems. I wish him good luck, with or without Liquid, I never really payed much attention to him (aside from his name, the name is awesome), but then again it's hard to shine next to such radiant personalities as ixmike , I just hope that this doesn't make it harder for him to find a team if Liquid really doesn't manage to talk this out.Stay stronk liquid. | ||
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kingNothing42
United States42 Posts
On March 13 2014 04:26 Liquid`Zephyr wrote: I've always felt that what separated good leaders from bad leaders was the ability to find a way to both understand and bring out the best in each person they were working with and create a dynamic solution to make their unique team better as whole. From what I've read, it seems like you are trying too hard to make TL into FIRE2. You have a group of completely different players with completely different personalities and it stands to reason that it might take a completely different approach to lead to bring out the best in your newest team. Hopefully, after some reflection about what it means to be a good leader, you can find a way to be realistic about your goals for both you and your team. This is strikingly close to how I feel about this. A truly good leader doesn't need his team to be made of his friends to be good at it. A good leader needs to be able to keep the respect of his team and get them to function as a team. It's not about how much the leader shouts louder than everyone else or whether he wants to chill with them after a scrim. I kept waiting for the part where Fluff says "so I talked to my team manager and my teammates and we worked it out" but it never came. How do you write something like this knowing that your teammates will read it and not talk to them first? (maybe he has and just didn't mention it. that'd be great) | ||
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Deleted User 135096
3624 Posts
On March 13 2014 04:32 GranDGranT wrote: Because Naz, HB, and whomever else need to address the situation like rational individuals before any kind of action could be taken. This post isn't even 6 hours old yet.But really, How has he not been kicked from Liquid yet after this? | ||
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 13 2014 05:15 kingNothing42 wrote: I kept waiting for the part where Fluff says "so I talked to my team manager and my teammates and we worked it out" but it never came. How do you write something like this knowing that your teammates will read it and not talk to them first? (maybe he has and just didn't mention it. that'd be great) I'd say that he was simply angry, but he wrote way too much for that alone. Maybe he was afraid of confronting his teammates about it or maybe that was never really his intention (which would be weird since it's obvious an issue that needs to get talked about.) It's hard to think of reasons for why he decided to make this public before he talked to them in private about it, I really hope that he did it and just didn't mention it as you said, otherwise his chances to stay in the team may have become even smaller than they otherwise would have after this, since going out to the public with something like this before you even talk to your teammates about it is just something that you simply don't do in a professional team, I just hope that his teammates don't feel too stabbed in the back due to this. | ||
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cecek
Czech Republic18921 Posts
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teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
On March 13 2014 04:36 Sn0_Man wrote: Because if he's getting the boot, Liquid are gonna handle it like adults and have a talk with him, figure out what the go forward plan is, and announce it properly once they know exactly what's happening instead of posting a knee-jerk reaction that they might regret later. maybe they just make a blog about it tho | ||
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Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Fluff must have mustered quite a bit of resolve before deciding to post this. He probably has quite a grasp on his current situation and what the future holds in store. I doubt he's just a clueless kid making a scene, so people would be better off keeping that in mind. That doesn't mean that TeamLiquid shouldn't drop him for his actions, but pointing fingers and treating him like some child with an identity crisis is a bit ridiculous. So while I don't agree with his publicizing this, I'm not going to carelessly shoot him down without taking into consideration where he's coming from. Fluff: Good luck. | ||
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 13 2014 05:33 Souma wrote: Why does the "problem" have to be either or? It could simply be that Fluff and TeamLiquid are not a good match for one another. It's not one individual's problem, but a conflict of interests of sorts. Fluff must have mustered quite a bit of resolve before deciding to post this. He probably has quite a grasp on his current situation and what the future holds in store. I doubt he's just a clueless kid making a scene, so people would be better off keeping that in mind. That doesn't mean that TeamLiquid shouldn't drop him for his actions, but pointing fingers and treating him like some child with an identity crisis is a bit ridiculous. So while I don't agree with his publicizing this, I'm not going to carelessly shoot him down without taking into consideration where he's coming from. Fluff: Good luck. I think the real problem here is not that there's a "conflict of interests", but rather how he handled it when he decided to make this public. Even if the fault would be entirely on the side of TL and the rest of his team then he still should have tried to solve it by being open with his teammates and his manager first. | ||
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giftdgecko
United States2126 Posts
Liquids problem as of late has been decision making and coordination. The fans feel the same frustration as you for what seems to be the same reasons. It's easy to come on here and say things that are wrong, it's hard to do things about it. Leaders DO things; you think you can be the leader? Talk to wayto and TC (the other perspective leaders) and figure something out. If you are too timid to bring this up with the team you are too timid to be a leader. I get that you can be empathetic and compassionate and sensitive and blah blah blah... Liquid could benefit from a stern voice in game, be the voice. It's really that simple. Right now liquid is on the outside of an invite but not completely undeserving. Large tourneys are coming up and there's a serious chance for liquid to prove it's one of the best teams not only in NA, but the west. DO something. | ||
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Daozzt
United States1263 Posts
On March 13 2014 05:44 giftdgecko wrote: Looking at a team like NaVi: you clearly don't have to be best friends to succeed. You need a common goal of being the best. Puppey draws on Kuroky's insight and relies on the skill of his players combined with his decisions being the decision. If you want to be the leader, talk to your team and BE the leader. Don't come bitch about things online, it makes you look weak and whiny. The problem with your drafts as I remember (from liquid) was that they were predictable. You have two capable drafters on your team now to draw insight from and keep a fresh perspective, as well as three very strong cores to play out your strats. Liquids problem as of late has been decision making and coordination. The fans feel the same frustration as you for what seems to be the same reasons. It's easy to come on here and say things that are wrong, it's hard to do things about it. Leaders DO things; you think you can be the leader? Talk to wayto and TC (the other perspective leaders) and figure something out. If you are too timid to bring this up with the team you are too timid to be a leader. I get that you can be empathetic and compassionate and sensitive and blah blah blah... Liquid could benefit from a stern voice in game, be the voice. It's really that simple. Right now liquid is on the outside of an invite but not completely undeserving. Large tourneys are coming up and there's a serious chance for liquid to prove it's one of the best teams not only in NA, but the west. DO something. I'm sure the players in navi get along pretty well. | ||
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GranDGranT
Sri Lanka2141 Posts
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Shaella
United States14827 Posts
On March 13 2014 06:01 GranDGranT wrote: So, can we see Korok back soon. GranDGranT x Korok OTP? | ||
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giftdgecko
United States2126 Posts
On March 13 2014 05:58 Daozzt wrote: I'm sure the players in navi get along pretty well. It was pretty clear after TI3 that xboct and puppey/kuro aren't, although dendi kinda glues them together. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On March 13 2014 06:01 GranDGranT wrote: So, can we see Korok back soon. As much as I would like to see him playing with Liquid, who plays support ? | ||
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Autotroph
United Kingdom940 Posts
zing | ||
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cecek
Czech Republic18921 Posts
On March 13 2014 06:11 giftdgecko wrote: It was pretty clear after TI3 that xboct and puppey/kuro aren't, although dendi kinda glues them together. I think in Na'Vi Kuro + Puppey and xboct + funnik are good friends, and Dendi is just a nice guy and friends with everybody. | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
On March 13 2014 06:11 giftdgecko wrote: It was pretty clear after TI3 that xboct and puppey/kuro aren't, although dendi kinda glues them together. ti3 was a long time ago and it was one single incident under some very special circumstances. xboct and kky get along pretty well now. | ||
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Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On March 13 2014 05:36 SilentchiLL wrote: I think the real problem here is not that there's a "conflict of interests", but rather how he handled it when he decided to make this public. Even if the fault would be entirely on the side of TL and the rest of his team then he still should have tried to solve it by being open with his teammates and his manager first. Pretty sure I already mentioned that in my post. From what I can gather Fluff is not some regular drama queen, so when he decided to post this I'm sure he realized the consequences to come. It's not a problem that needs to be repeated and embellished by the masses. | ||
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giftdgecko
United States2126 Posts
On March 13 2014 06:15 prplhz wrote: ti3 was a long time ago and it was one single incident under some very special circumstances. xboct and kky get along pretty well now. That may be but I still don't believe you have to be good friends to be on a team and succeed. Especially in the situation Fluff is in where he sounded like he was going to school next year from his Redbull interview. Liquid can look at TI4 as an end goal and deal with internal problems after, similar to Korok and Fluff last year. I think at this point maybe you just give Fluff the reigns as captain, even after this blog, and see what he does. If he "crash and burns" then is liquid really any worse off than they are now? Liquid seems like they could benefit from a voice on the team and if Fluff can bring it into the game and not just on a blog then let him try. Either way, can't see him coming back next year to Liquid. | ||
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Keytar
Canada156 Posts
If you PM me here, I can send you any game you want on Steam. Take a week off Dota and play it. Be calm and happy. | ||
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qelix
United States13 Posts
On March 13 2014 07:00 Keytar wrote: You need a hug. If you PM me here, I can send you any game you want on Steam. Take a week off Dota and play it. Be calm and happy. My god. You are a marvelously kind person. | ||
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LedZepp1109
2 Posts
On March 12 2014 22:40 joker101 wrote: Needed to be reposted: "Blog basically says: - I should of been leader, not you, this is why we lose. - Team doesn't like me . I have good ideas but I am too quiet to speak up. I should be leader doe.- Whinge, teenage angstiness - Team shouldn't get an invite to TI (LOL). Thanks sponsors for your commitment! - I write 9000 words bios on why I should be captain. THIS DISPLAYS GOOD LEADERSHIP. I'm unable to position myself correctly within a small team to lead them to victory doe. - I don't have respect of my team, but I should be leader. - Whinge whinge whinge - Team doesn't communicate properly, but I think I can fix it by being the leader. I'll do this through my astounding communications skills. Introverts make the best leaders. - To show my amazing leadership skills, I'll write a blog and air the whole teams dirty laundry instead of discussing it in meeting. This will inspire confidence and grow trust/friendships within the team. - Veiled threats to leave if it doesn't get fixed. - Significant round-a-bout delegation of blame. - Admits to basically throwing in tournaments and wanting to lose. THAT WILL HELP THE TEAM. But, I am trying to help them bros. Let's endure losses during tournaments, that will teach you a lesson and help us grow. - More whinging. Kid I don't even think you could manage the counter at McDonalds. Leadership is for the strong willed, not introverted little boys who write tumblr-esk diatribe on their teams official page. How embarrassing." Well then. Basically this. | ||
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Bryce241
Zimbabwe80 Posts
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
Where does it originally come from?= | ||
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Sheik
Switzerland9 Posts
Summs it up pretty well. I think you failed hard with this post. And also sometimes you should just face the fact that you're no leader or work hard to be one (and with this post you surely didn't go the right direction). | ||
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GranDGranT
Sri Lanka2141 Posts
On March 13 2014 07:40 Bryce241 wrote: #BringKorokBack #BKB | ||
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Tyrran
France777 Posts
I hope you will all be able to work this out in the neat future and will be able to bounce back. Because the talent is definitely here. | ||
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a-game
Canada5085 Posts
Also it's not uncommon in conventional professional sports for tacticians (coaches) to demand fanatical loyalty to their "system" and you'll be in deep shit if you mess up any minor point of it or disobey an instruction. Based on my memories of coL brilliance under his control, and knowing that many professional sports teams are run by tacticians using their players as obedient pieces, it's possible a guy like Fluff still has a place in our esport. It's very clear however that there are many players who would not want to play with a guy like this though (I must say, it's not unusual for some of the most brilliant coaches in sport to also be psychopaths that are extremely hard to play for). | ||
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MidgetExplosion
United States137 Posts
On March 12 2014 19:46 Sippycup wrote: As an introvert myself, I have to disagree with you here. I believe this is a last ditch effort for Fluff to muster self-accountability for his actions by showing everyone a slight sense of vulnerability from someone who's normally extremely reserved. Introverts count on themselves for accountability, because a lot of the time as "quiet" people we see our thoughts and opinions get washed in and away with the people who dont have this kind of issue. We never want to step on anyone's toes, even if what they do makes us incredibly angry. Given a leadership role, when we mess up, we normally see it fit to get out of the way and retract back in to our shells when someone seems unhappy with our decision, and a lot of people look down on us for that. Liquid is Fluff's baby. I always see him and Bulba as the face of this franchise, and if I know a man dedicated to something he loves, telling everyone around him "HEY, MAKE ME ACCOUNTABLE FOR MY ACTIONS" is what he needs to fuel his desire to succeed. This. Some people here are saying that you were wrong to post this, Fluff. Someone earlier even saying that it was so wrong that if he was your manager he would kick you from the team. That's ridiculous, I completely disagree. I would have gained a whole lot of respect for you if I was on your team and I would very much want to fight harder after reading this. I also believe as someone said above that this is a last ditch effort for Fluff to muster self-accountability for his actions by showing everyone a slight sense of vulnerability from someone who's normally extremely reserved. In my opinion if your teammates think otherwise then they definitely aren't meant to be your teammates. You would have gotten me to trust you and to give Liquid my all after reading this if I was on the team, I sincerely hope that is what your teammates think about it as well. I'll be rooting for Liquid as always. I believe you guys, always will. | ||
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DavoS
United States4605 Posts
On March 13 2014 06:01 GranDGranT wrote: So, can we see Korok back soon. I thought Korok retired after his failed stint on Dignitas to go to school? | ||
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 13 2014 08:09 MidgetExplosion wrote: This. Some people here are saying that you were wrong to post this, Fluff. This kinda itched me the wrong way so maybe I shouldn't reply, but do you honestly believe that a player should just throw internal problems of his team out to the public like that instead of just solving them internally? If every player would do that no team would survive longer than a month or two. I don't think that Fluff needs to leave Liquid if they can talk this out like adults and fix the problems they are having, but posting something like this definitly was neither professional, nor nice from a personal standpoint since he kinda makes himself, his teammates and the organization that supports him look bad for no real reason, if the guys are sensitive about this they could feel betrayed or like he's publically throwing them under the bus, even though TL's players seem like relatively calm types so it might be fine. Still though, you just don't do stuff like this in a professional team. | ||
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kvothe0153
3 Posts
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teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
On March 13 2014 08:17 DavoS wrote: I thought Korok retired after his failed stint on Dignitas to go to school? noone leaves dota u fool | ||
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MidgetExplosion
United States137 Posts
On March 13 2014 08:21 SilentchiLL wrote: This kinda itched me the wrong way so maybe I shouldn't reply, but do you honestly believe that a player should just throw internal problems of his team out to the public like that instead of just solving them internally? If every player would do that no team would survive longer than a month or two. I don't think that Fluff needs to leave Liquid if they can talk this out like adults and fix the problems they are having, but posting something like this definitly was neither professional, nor nice from a personal standpoint since he kinda makes himself, his teammates and the organization that supports him look bad for no real reason, if the guys are sensitive about this they could feel betrayed or like he's publically throwing them under the bus, even though TL's players seem like relatively calm types so it might be fine. Still though, you just don't do stuff like this in a professional team. I just think you (and many others) are getting a different idea about this blog than what it was intended for. Fluff was really just ranting here and being sad that his team isn't as close as his former team was. That's it. Hopefully Liquid is able to recognize that and take steps to try and make Liquid a team of close friends who trust each other and then use that trust to work towards a unified goal. That's all his blog was trying to communicate. You (and many others) seem to get other feelings from this blog, like making people feel betrayed and make Liquid look bad but that's just not what this was meant for. Instead of looking at how it makes you and others feel, why not pay more attention to what he actually did it for? Fluff meant nothing but good things to come out of this, he wasn't throwing anyone under a bus and he meant absolutely no disrespect whatsoever. This was his attempt at bringing the team closer together. Whether or not you think the way he went about it was right or wrong, the point is that he is TRYING. If you get the wrong idea about it and feel it was actually pushing them further apart then that is fine. But I can tell you that if I was his teammate I would definitely feel closer to him after reading this. So I'm hoping the rest of his team does as well. | ||
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GranDGranT
Sri Lanka2141 Posts
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MidgetExplosion
United States137 Posts
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MidgetExplosion
United States137 Posts
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fuzzy_panda
New Zealand1681 Posts
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 13 2014 09:01 MidgetExplosion wrote: Seems a lot of people really don't like when someone isn't secretive. "Since Fluff made the public aware of the team's reality I would kick him from the team." Lol! That sounds so silly to me... Yes, good friend, bringing your personal problems in the team to the media as a professional athlete or making a blogpost about it as a pro-gamer is generally considered unprofessional and just like you shouldn't say bad things about others behind their backs, you especially shouldn't do what Fluff did without talking to your teammates. And please refrain from double or tripleposting without reason, you can just use the edit button at the top right of your posts. On March 13 2014 09:23 MidgetExplosion wrote: Anyone who thinks you were wrong for doing what you did here just completely doesn't understand you and I can completely see how it can drive you nuts. M8, taboos like this usually exist for a reason. | ||
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SpiZe
Canada3640 Posts
On March 13 2014 09:23 MidgetExplosion wrote: It's really crazy to me how Fluff posts a blog about how it drives him nuts that people don't understand him, then in the comments section of the blog people question his motives which further details how much people just absolutely don't understand him, hahaha... Sorry Fluff, I get you and I really hope the rest of your team at least makes an attempt to get you as well. Anyone who thinks you were wrong for doing what you did here just completely doesn't understand you and I can completely see how it can drive you nuts. Maybe if most people "can't understand him" and a lot of people "question his motives" it's because he is misguided and delusional ? I know that even if the majority believes in something, it doesn't necessarily make it right but it some point if every one questions your judgement, you have to reconsider. The problem at hand here isn't some sort of secret dota skill, it's just team management. They don't have to be best buds, just play dota together, they are professionals are they not ? (let's not get into if being friends is actually a good thing or not, that's not the point). His blog is basically saying "I was the captain, I did not do a good enough job so I was temporarily replaced and I still think it was the right choice. But I never got better so it became permanent but I still think I should be captain". Sorry but this doesn't make sense to me. But hey, if it doesn't make sense to you, or Fluff, then it's because you don't understand me. | ||
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johnnypalo
Philippines1 Post
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On March 13 2014 10:20 fuzzy_panda wrote: I feel like this is less about Liquid as a team and more about Fluff's selfish desire to be recognized as a leader. As others have said before, if you're truly suited to leading, then you will naturally lead. Why can't you just recognize that? You can't DEMAND other people to respect you and make you their leader. And you certainly shouldn't do it by badmouthing the team publicly like this. Or sabotaging the team's games coz you want them to 'implode' and learn a lesson. This is a terrible example of leadership. I can only say that I think it's because you are still young and haven't had a lot of life experience yet. Maybe in a few years when you are more mature and have a different outlook on life, you can look back at this blog and have a laugh. But currently through the thoughts expressed in this blog I think you are the LEAST suitable person to lead Liquid. Why do people read this blog and actually think that Fluff tried to purposely lose his games? That wasn't what the blog was about at all... | ||
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beesinyoface
2450 Posts
On March 13 2014 10:55 synapse wrote: Why do people read this blog and actually think that Fluff tried to purposely lose his games? That wasn't what the blog was about at all... He may not have been deliberately throwing games, but actively hoping your team loses games just to prove a point is complete fucking bullshit, regardless of who you are. Instead of speaking up with the team and having an honest discussion, he wished for his team to "explode" so he could take the reins back and lead TL into the promise land. | ||
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
On March 12 2014 23:28 Saechiis wrote: Why? That's such political bullshit, I'm glad to know there's actual people on Liquid. Political bullshit? I dont think you understand what that means. Its more about respect. Respect in the managers who put the team together, respect to the team that employs him, respect to your teammates by not alienating them (which this does by demanding them to follow him or "get out of his way"). It would be like me going out to my companies sales conference and bitching to all our reps about how shitty my situation on my team has been whether it was my teams fault or not. How would my team feel about that after? pretty fucking irritated. It's completely and utterly juvenile. | ||
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Dubzex
United States6994 Posts
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Orcasgt24
Canada3238 Posts
Am disappointed to have found so few and no blue barred admin posts | ||
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icystorage
Jollibee19346 Posts
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
Just a thought. | ||
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GranDGranT
Sri Lanka2141 Posts
Just a thought. | ||
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beesinyoface
2450 Posts
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Mahashivatri
Argentina3 Posts
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TomatoBisque
United States6290 Posts
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Rho_
United States971 Posts
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MidgetExplosion
United States137 Posts
On March 13 2014 10:22 SilentchiLL wrote: Yes, good friend, bringing your personal problems in the team to the media as a professional athlete or making a blogpost about it as a pro-gamer is generally considered unprofessional and just like you shouldn't say bad things about others behind their backs, you especially shouldn't do what Fluff did without talking to your teammates. And please refrain from double or tripleposting without reason, you can just use the edit button at the top right of your posts. M8, taboos like this usually exist for a reason. I had no intention of offending you here, but your response reads like I definitely did in some way. I'm well aware that this is "generally considered unprofessional" but what I'm doing is questioning that. I believe that what makes things like this be considered unprofessional is most people do and think things they shouldn't. And so to stay professional you should hide these things because "we don't want the public to find out about these things or they might think ill of us." Maybe if you don't want the public to know about something that's happening then you shouldn't be doing it in the first place. I believe that professionalism SHOULD come from being completely open and honest with the public and they should love you for it because you are real and not trying to hide anything. I'm well aware that this isn't the "General Consensus" but the past has shown that the general consensus of many things are just plain wrong and the only way to change that is growth. Taboos like this definitely do exist for a reason, and in my opinion that reason is wrong. In 1915 it was "generally considered" wrong for women to vote. Scholars such as yourself at the time would sit around telling people what is, while others were working to make the community actually grow out of silly general considerations. Hey look, I used the edit button. You're welcome. | ||
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Dracolich70
Denmark3820 Posts
I think you are a smart guy with a strong emotional intelligence, Fluff. But if you want to lead, you would want to befriend your mates, want to care for them, want to make them succeed. If this infectuates the ambiance of the team, then you have a team, that can compete. Winning is a mindset. So is teamwork. They do require action, not backseat steering. A team needs a heart and an engine. I hope you aren't anxious about leading, Fluff. Or even failing. Always just do the best you can, and you will never disappoint completely. It aches me how little the youth of today understand teambuilding and teamwork. At least in the West. | ||
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MidgetExplosion
United States137 Posts
On March 13 2014 14:05 Dracolich70 wrote: I think you are a smart guy with a strong emotional intelligence, Fluff. But if you want to lead, you would want to befriend your mates, want to care for them, want to make them succeed. If this infectuates the ambiance of the team, then you have a team, that can compete. Winning is a mindset. So is teamwork. They do require action, not backseat steering. A team needs a heart and an engine. I hope you aren't anxious about leading, Fluff. Or even failing. Always just do the best you can, and you will never disappoint completely. Very well said, completely agree. Hopefully Fluff can change himself into being able to make Liquid'DOTA the team we all know they can be. Liquid Fighting! | ||
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Yamoth
United States315 Posts
On March 13 2014 14:00 MidgetExplosion wrote: I had no intention of offending you here, but your response reads like I definitely did in some way. I'm well aware that this is "generally considered unprofessional" but what I'm doing is questioning that. I believe that what makes things like this be considered unprofessional is most people do and think things they shouldn't. And so to stay professional you should hide these things because "we don't want the public to find out about these things or they might think ill of us." Maybe if you don't want the public to know about something that's happening then you shouldn't be doing it in the first place. I believe that professionalism SHOULD come from being completely open and honest with the public and they should love you for it because you are real and not trying to hide anything. I'm well aware that this isn't the "General Consensus" but the past has shown that the general consensus of many things are just plain wrong and the only way to change that is growth. Taboos like this definitely do exist for a reason, and in my opinion that reason is wrong. In 1915 it was "generally considered" wrong for women to vote. Scholars such as yourself at the time would sit around telling people what is, while others were working to make the community actually grow out of silly general considerations. Hey look, I used the edit button. You're welcome. Professionalism is giving the other party a chance to resolve the problem before you air it for the entire community to see. It is just a dick move that makes everyone look bad (especially himself). I don't really have a problem with his post, and I think most of the community doesn't neither. It is the timing of it all that irks me. | ||
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Dracolich70
Denmark3820 Posts
Maybe it got his teams attention, and if they are a good team, they will respond to it, contemplate, and fix things, if fixable, and hopefully go in the right direction with good leadership, and good teamspirit qualities, backing your fellow man. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On March 13 2014 11:51 Darpa wrote: Political bullshit? I dont think you understand what that means. Its more about respect. Respect in the managers who put the team together, respect to the team that employs him, respect to your teammates by not alienating them (which this does by demanding them to follow him or "get out of his way"). It would be like me going out to my companies sales conference and bitching to all our reps about how shitty my situation on my team has been whether it was my teams fault or not. How would my team feel about that after? pretty fucking irritated. It's completely and utterly juvenile. Poltical is a shallow way of communication that doesn't convey or take into account emotion. It's useless to try and argue what Fluff should do on a political level when clearly he's writing from an emotional point of view. Hence political bullshit. Fluff is probably going to make more progress with his possibly offensive rant than in the entirety of 2013 being political. | ||
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On March 13 2014 14:47 Saechiis wrote: Poltical is a shallow way of communication that doesn't convey or take into account emotion. It's useless to try and argue what Fluff should do on a political level when clearly he's writing from an emotional point of view. Hence political bullshit. Fluff is probably going to make more progress with his possibly offensive rant than in the entirety of 2013 being political. Except, according to him, he wasn't very political in 2013. Just a lot of passive-aggressive attitude towards his own team, and zero communication. But yeah, he probably will make a lot more progress. One year of building up negativity, and one single post to push it to breaking point. Good job, I guess? | ||
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Nedereden
777 Posts
If you need to Crash and Burn, you're not alone, Fluff! Damn I miss the 90s... | ||
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 13 2014 14:00 MidgetExplosion wrote: I had no intention of offending you here, but your response reads like I definitely did in some way. I'm well aware that this is "generally considered unprofessional" but what I'm doing is questioning that. I believe that what makes things like this be considered unprofessional is most people do and think things they shouldn't. And so to stay professional you should hide these things because "we don't want the public to find out about these things or they might think ill of us." Maybe if you don't want the public to know about something that's happening then you shouldn't be doing it in the first place. I believe that professionalism SHOULD come from being completely open and honest with the public and they should love you for it because you are real and not trying to hide anything. I'm well aware that this isn't the "General Consensus" but the past has shown that the general consensus of many things are just plain wrong and the only way to change that is growth. Taboos like this definitely do exist for a reason, and in my opinion that reason is wrong. In 1915 it was "generally considered" wrong for women to vote. Scholars such as yourself at the time would sit around telling people what is, while others were working to make the community actually grow out of silly general considerations. Hey look, I used the edit button. You're welcome. You didn't offend me at all, you didn't get the point of my post and your analogy is completely unfitting. To make this short, by doing this openly instead of handling it privately, since it is a private matter after all, Fluff treated his team in a way which no teamplayer ever should, Yamoth and a lot of other people here see the obvious problem with that. And save yourself the sarcastic tone, this barely qualifies as an argument so there's really no reason to become agressive in any way here. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
you do understand that with this ultimatum, you're much easier to kick right | ||
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AwfuL_
Netherlands6976 Posts
On March 13 2014 13:13 Mahashivatri wrote: I like how he talks about Fire/Col like it was a good team that achieved anything, they had a winning streak when they came to the scene because no one knew how to play against them (happens with every team that enters the scene IE: potm botm, AL, etc), never won a lan, or a any big tournament, couldnt even place top8 at TI2, stop deluding yourself into thinking Col was some kind of super memorable team that played amazing dota. At least the team always had some well thought out gameplan and knew what to do when behind. And you make it sound like they completely bombed at TI2, while they were actually second in their groupstages and were eliminated in a bo1 against EHOME. Just one win away from top 8. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On March 12 2014 16:33 Verator wrote: Some other points: You can't be both a leader and an introvert, these are contradictory things. No they're not. You don't seem to actually understand what being introverted is. You can be an introvert who interacts well with people. By definition a leader must be comfortable interacting with people regardless of circumstances, and tackling problems head on. Yes a leader does have to do that, but that's got nothing to do with being introverted. You can't possibly lead effectively until you fix that problem first. Its not a "problem". Its the way someone is and has precisely nothing to do with leadership. Your blog doesn't indicate anywhere that you're actually up to the task of forcing your vision upon other people who are confident and know your shit, and will question your decisions if they think they might be wrong. Your job as a leader would be to force your vision on the others, and make them see why your decisions are right. You have some very weird views on leadership. "Forcing" your vision on people is a terrible, terrible way to lead. You should be inspiring people to believe in your vision and convincing them you're right, not forcing it on them. Anyway I hope it all works out for FLUFF and the team. But I bet this blog put the cat among the pigeons a bit. All the best to all of you, I hope you guys make the right decisions. Edit: Somehow I randomly cut off a sentence when I was adding a bit. Fixed. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On March 13 2014 19:46 Erasme wrote: holy shit i don't understand how anyone could think its a good idea to flame his teammate in a blog, then expect to be captain of any team you do understand that with this ultimatum, you're much easier to kick right I focus more on the big picture then just one magnified detail. Blowing 1 sentence out of proportion and disjoint it from the message in the blog is not really fair either. Its spicey this blog, i'll give ya that, lets hope it creates some space for them to win some games and bond #hakumamatata | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 13 2014 20:40 -Celestial- wrote: Its not a "problem". Its the way someone is and has precisely nothing to do with leadership. TL is a very accepting place, but saying that "the way someone is" or simpler his character cannot be a problem goes a bit far, don't you think? Him being an introvert does hinder his leadership-skills so it's not too far fetched to call it a problem, he also talked about how different he is when he plays with friends compared to how he plays with his team and that they even asked him about that, but he never actually mentioned anywhere (atleast as far as I remember) making attempts to become friends with his team, it's like he just accepted that they aren't friends and then shut down. An extroverted person would have been a lot more likely to take action, hold out his hand to the others and befriend them and if Fluff would have done so and became their friend he probably would have felt more comfortable with being more vocal in the team and all of this could have been avoided. From the way you talk the topic is either very important to you or you're an introvert yourself (or both), I'd give you my condolences here but I know enough introverts to know that they can be just as happy or sad as others depending on how they handle it just like everybody else needs to learn to live with (or even to enjoy) some part of their personalities, but even if you feel strongly for this those strong feelings shouldn't blind your judgement here. | ||
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BrokenBang
United States3 Posts
On March 13 2014 21:35 SilentchiLL wrote: TL is a very accepting place, but saying that "the way someone is" or simpler his character cannot be a problem goes a bit far, don't you think? Him being an introvert does hinder his leadership-skills so it's not too far fetched to call it a problem, he also talked about how different he is when he plays with friends compared to how he plays with his team and that they even asked him about that, but he never actually mentioned anywhere (atleast as far as I remember) making attempts to become friends with his team, it's like he just accepted that they aren't friends and then shut down. An extroverted person would have been a lot more likely to take action, hold out his hand to the others and befriend them and if Fluff would have done so and became their friend he probably would have felt more comfortable with being more vocal in the team and all of this could have been avoided. From the way you talk the topic is either very important to you or you're an introvert yourself (or both), I'd give you my condolences here but I know enough introverts to know that they can be just as happy or sad as others depending on how they handle it just like everybody else needs to learn to live with (or even to enjoy) some part of their personalities, but even if you feel strongly for this those strong feelings shouldn't blind your judgement here. Being an introvert does not hinder anyone's ability to be a leader. An introvert is just simply someone who needs some time to themselves away from other people. You say an extrovert in a leadership position would be more likely to take action, but that is not true. Action can be taken in a variety of ways and extroverts just like to be in the spotlight more than introverts. Just because you can't see action being taken does not mean nothing is happening. This particular situation that Fluff is in is a result of holding back whatever he wanted to say in the first place because he was afraid of something adverse. Holding back something you want to say or do is not a quality only introverts have. | ||
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DreadKnight
United Kingdom123 Posts
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Unleashing
Denmark14978 Posts
On March 13 2014 21:35 SilentchiLL wrote: TL is a very accepting place, but saying that "the way someone is" or simpler his character cannot be a problem goes a bit far, don't you think? Him being an introvert does hinder his leadership-skills so it's not too far fetched to call it a problem, he also talked about how different he is when he plays with friends compared to how he plays with his team and that they even asked him about that, but he never actually mentioned anywhere (atleast as far as I remember) making attempts to become friends with his team, it's like he just accepted that they aren't friends and then shut down. An extroverted person would have been a lot more likely to take action, hold out his hand to the others and befriend them and if Fluff would have done so and became their friend he probably would have felt more comfortable with being more vocal in the team and all of this could have been avoided. From the way you talk the topic is either very important to you or you're an introvert yourself (or both), I'd give you my condolences here but I know enough introverts to know that they can be just as happy or sad as others depending on how they handle it just like everybody else needs to learn to live with (or even to enjoy) some part of their personalities, but even if you feel strongly for this those strong feelings shouldn't blind your judgement here. Being introverted does not affect your ability to lead at all. You seem to think being introverted means being asocial, it does not. Bill gates is an introvert, Abraham Lincoln was an introvert, Mahatma Gandhi was an introvert(And many others but there's no reason to keep listing names). Clearly being an introvert does not at all prevent someone from being an effective and good leader. Introverts can be just as good at being social as an extrovert, the difference is that introverts need time on their own to regain their mental energy while extroverts can regain this energy while spending time with others, it has fuckall to do with their social skills. An extrovert can easily have the social skills of a potato. Also why the fuck would you give your condolences because someone might an introvert? That alone shows what a fucked up perspective you have about what it means to be introverted, and clearly shows that you have no actual idea about what it actually means to be introverted. Also i really hope TL sorts their things out as a team, i really used to enjoy watching their games but i can't really say the same for their most recent performance | ||
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 13 2014 22:15 BrokenBang wrote: Being an introvert does not hinder anyone's ability to be a leader. An introvert is just simply someone who needs some time to themselves away from other people. You say an extrovert in a leadership position would be more likely to take action, but that is not true. Action can be taken in a variety of ways and extroverts just like to be in the spotlight more than introverts. Just because you can't see action being taken does not mean nothing is happening. This particular situation that Fluff is in is a result of holding back whatever he wanted to say in the first place because he was afraid of something adverse. Holding back something you want to say or do is not a quality only introverts have. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introvert#Introversion Introversion is "the state of or tendency toward being wholly or predominantly concerned with and interested in one's own mental life".[4] Some popular writers have characterized introverts as people whose energy tends to expand through reflection and dwindle during interaction.[5] This is similar to Jung's view, although he focused on mental energy rather than physical energy. Few modern conceptions make this distinction. The common modern perception is that introverts tend to be more reserved and less outspoken in groups. They often take pleasure in solitary activities such as reading, writing, using computers, hiking and fishing. The archetypal artist, writer, sculptor, engineer, composer and inventor are all highly introverted. An introvert is likely to enjoy time spent alone and find less reward in time spent with large groups of people, though he or she may enjoy interactions with close friends. Trust is usually an issue of significance: a virtue of utmost importance to introverts is choosing a worthy companion. They prefer to concentrate on a single activity at a time and like to observe situations before they participate, especially observed in developing children and adolescents.[6] They are more analytical before speaking.[7] Introverts are easily overwhelmed by too much stimulation from social gatherings and engagement, introversion having even been defined by some in terms of a preference for a quiet, more minimally stimulating external environment.[8] Introversion is not the same thing as shyness but it is often mistaken as such by extraverts. Introverts prefer solitary to social activities, but do not fear social encounters like shy people do. [9] EDIT since a blank article and quote seem kinda ill-mannered: Being an introvert does hinder ones ability to be a leader, if you have problems to make yourself heard in a group then it's often harder to lead, especially in a stressful situation like in dota where strong calls have to be made or where it can go horribly to mix up different opinions on drafting. | ||
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Testuser
6469 Posts
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Unleashing
Denmark14978 Posts
On March 13 2014 22:31 SilentchiLL wrote: Being an introvert does hinder ones ability to be a leader, if you have problems to make yourself heard in a group then it's often harder to lead, especially in a stressful situation like in dota where strong calls have to be made or where it can go horribly to mix up different opinions on drafting. Explain the multitude of successful introverted leaders then. Just because introverts regain energy on reflection does not at all mean they somehow can't lead. I am personally introverted but that does not at all prevent me from being the leader in my research projects, and it doesn't prevent other introverts from being successful leaders. Introversion and extroversion also isn't black and white, barely anything in this world is black and white. | ||
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Testuser
6469 Posts
On March 13 2014 22:31 SilentchiLL wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introvert#Introversion EDIT since a blank article and quote seem kinda ill-mannered: Being an introvert does hinder ones ability to be a leader, if you have problems to make yourself heard in a group then it's often harder to lead, especially in a stressful situation like in dota where strong calls have to be made or where it can go horribly to mix up different opinions on drafting. Tend to be. It's not in black and white. Being introverted means, that once your energy battery is gone dry, you replenish it by spending some time alone. Some people do it by spending time with other people - that is how they, extroverts, replenish their energy. It even says the exact same thing in what you linked. You don't necessarily have problems taking charge of a group or speaking out - that's just the case for some introverts, not all. | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
I wanted to, in each event, take control over the team and seize leadership. I wanted my team to explode, I wanted everybody to feel so much frustration that there would be nothing to lose. I excel in these situations because, when there's pressure on my back I work harder and think quicker. At the Monster Invitational I rolled in bed all night, the day before the finals, thinking of 3 or 4 different strategies I was prepared to break out as an emergency captain. Man this just reads to me as Fluff being a huge fantasist. Like the story of the man who wanted to join the fire rescue service, but kept getting rejected, so he set fire to a building so that he could be a hero and save the day. It's sad, really... | ||
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 13 2014 22:38 Unleashing wrote: Explain the multitude of successful introverted leaders then. Just because introverts regain energy on reflection does not at all mean they somehow can't lead. I am personally introverted but that does not at all prevent me from being the leader in my research projects, and it doesn't prevent other introverts from being successful leaders. Introversion and extroversion also isn't black and white, barely anything in this world is black and white. A lot of things hinder ones ability to do certain things, but that doesn't meant hat they make them impossible, also never claimed that they would. Seriously, can you guys stop seeing these things in such an extreme way just because it touches you personally? You talk about seeing things black and white but yet you act like I made some kind of absolute statement along the lines of "introverts can't be leaders". This started out as a discussion on it being a problem or not, it is in this case, it was never about the question if introverts can be leaders or not. On March 13 2014 22:39 Testuser wrote: Tend to be. It's not in black and white. Being introverted means, that once your energy battery is gone dry, you replenish it by spending some time alone. Some people do it by spending time with other people - that is how they, extroverts, replenish their energy. It even says the exact same thing in what you linked. You don't necessarily have problems taking charge of a group or speaking out - that's just the case for some introverts, not all. Not just for some introverts, for many of them. Can we stop splitting hairs here? We're talking about a specific case (Fluff) and just because not everybody is like that but most are doesn't mean I have to go fully on the path of political correctness here, right? If the majority of the people of a certain island have bad eyesight calling people who live on that island bad at looking far doesn't make what I say completely wrong, does it? It also doesn't mean that I just called all of them blind though. I know this is a topic that many take personally, but even if you do there's no need to defend a certain line so strictly here, just take what you read into context and believe that your conversational partner isn't so dumb to always think in extremes. If we'd always have to make sure to consider small minorities or exceptions then broad exceptions of any kind would be completely impossible | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On March 13 2014 21:35 SilentchiLL wrote: TL is a very accepting place, but saying that "the way someone is" or simpler his character cannot be a problem goes a bit far, don't you think? Him being an introvert does hinder his leadership-skills so it's not too far fetched to call it a problem, he also talked about how different he is when he plays with friends compared to how he plays with his team and that they even asked him about that, but he never actually mentioned anywhere (atleast as far as I remember) making attempts to become friends with his team, it's like he just accepted that they aren't friends and then shut down. An extroverted person would have been a lot more likely to take action, hold out his hand to the others and befriend them and if Fluff would have done so and became their friend he probably would have felt more comfortable with being more vocal in the team and all of this could have been avoided. From the way you talk the topic is either very important to you or you're an introvert yourself (or both), I'd give you my condolences here but I know enough introverts to know that they can be just as happy or sad as others depending on how they handle it just like everybody else needs to learn to live with (or even to enjoy) some part of their personalities, but even if you feel strongly for this those strong feelings shouldn't blind your judgement here. I was going to reply but I see I've been beaten to it by other people who have explained in more detail. In short: You don't know what being introverted is either. SilentchiLL posted a wikipedia link which has a good explanation although admittedly he apparently didn't really understand it because he thinks it argues that introversion is bad for leadership potential too and that "being outspoken" is the same thing as making yourself heard when you need to be. And you have some serious attitude problems and/or personal issues if you think introversion is something to offer condolences for. It IS "the way someone is" because its based on how people regain their energy or, if you prefer, destress; it has very little to do with anything else. And it has zero implication on leadership capabilities. | ||
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 13 2014 22:53 -Celestial- wrote: I was going to reply but I see I've been beaten to it by other people who have explained in more detail. In short: You don't know what being introverted is either. SilentchiLL posted a wikipedia link which has a good explanation although admittedly he apparently didn't really understand it because he thinks it argues that introversion is bad for leadership potential too. The guy who posted the article is me as well (maybe you just decided to talk to me in third person about your answer, but that doesn't seem likely). And I do understand what it is, you don't really seem to care enough to read my posts though since I was talking about how something that's part of the personality of many introverts is bad for being a leader in dota. And you have some serious attitude problems and/or personal issues if you think introversion is something to offer condolences for. This made me kinda angry to be honest, I said that it's NOT something to offer condolences for, because you were defending the point that being introverted itself is NOT an inherently bad thing and I was AGREEING with you, goddamnit man. It IS "the way someone is" because its based on how people regain their energy or, if you prefer, destress; it has very little to do with anything else. And it has zero implication on leadership capabilities. And yes, I agreed with you on it being the way someone is as well, I did say though that the personality of somebody can be a problem, just because it's your personality doesn't mean it can't be a problem. For the rest, read the post above yours. EDIT: to make this absolutely clear I'd give you my condolences here but I WOULD give you my condolences here BUT | ||
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Unleashing
Denmark14978 Posts
On March 13 2014 22:52 SilentchiLL wrote: A lot of things hinder ones ability to do certain things, but that doesn't meant hat they make them impossible, also never claimed that they would. Seriously, can you guys stop seeing these things in such an extreme way just because it touches you personally? You talk about seeing things black and white but yet you act like I made some kind of absolute statement along the lines of "introverts can't be leaders". This started out as a discussion on it being a problem or not, it is in this case, it was never about the question if introverts can be leaders or not. Are you even reading what you write yourself? you ARE the one that is making absolute statements, you said that him being introverted will hinder his ability to lead. This is just plain wrong. Being an introvert is not a problem in regards to being a good leader. There are both good and bad leaders and they can be both introverted and extroverted regardless of what kind of leader they are. It doesn't even have anything to do with me being an introvert myself, it has something to do with you being wrong. Fluff might be a bad leader, i wouldn't know, but it definitely does not need to have anything to do with him being introverted. It might, there are also people who are bad leaders because they are extroverts, shock, who could have thought it could go both ways? I've had a bad leader who was extroverted, i've also had one of my best leaders who was an extrovert. Trying to link extroversion and introversion with the ability to lead is fucking dumb. | ||
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 13 2014 23:01 Unleashing wrote: Are you even reading what you write yourself? you ARE the one that is making absolute statements, you said that him being introverted will hinder his ability to lead. This is just plain wrong. It obviously does though, he pretty much said it himself. Being an introvert is not a problem in regards to being a good leader. There are both good and bad leaders and they can be both introverted and extroverted regardless of what kind of leader they are. If you don't manage to step up and become the leader then it doesn't matter if you're a good one or a bad one because you just aren't one in that situation. I adressed how the reservedness that often comes with it can be a big problem in dota above already. Fluff might be a bad leader, i wouldn't know, but it definitely does not need to have anything to do with him being introverted. It might, there are also people who are bad leaders because they are extroverts, shock, who could have thought it could go both ways? Sorry to ask it so bluntly, but did you even read the blog? | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On March 13 2014 22:58 SilentchiLL wrote: The guy who posted the article is me as well (maybe you just decided to talk to me in third person about your answer, but that doesn't seem likely). For some reason I read the first post as someone else, how odd. Guess I'm more tired than I thought. *shrug* This made me kinda angry to be honest, I said that it's NOT something to offer condolences for, because you were defending the point that being introverted itself is NOT an inherently bad thing and I was AGREEING with you, goddamnit man. Er...no, you posted a condescending comment with a whole "they can be happy or sad depending on how they handle it" aspect to it. Its not a mental health issue like clinical depression ffs, its introversion. Don't conflate the two. And if you want to play the "angry" card; you doing so ticked me off somewhat too, for personal reasons. My point is the very fact you needed to spell that out implies you think its some sort of problem that has to be "dealt with". Which is utterly absurd. Think about it this way: is it a problem to enjoy quietly reading or...I don't know...fishing (introversion) as opposed to going out to clubs and dancing (extraversion) on a weekend? And yes, I agreed with you on it being the way someone is as well, I did say though that the personality of somebody can be a problem, just because it's your personality doesn't mean it can't be a problem. For the rest, read the post above yours. Personality being a problem is a different issue from introversion vs extraversion. | ||
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 13 2014 23:11 -Celestial- wrote: For some reason I read the first post as someone else, how odd. Guess I'm more tired than I thought. *shrug* That probably happens to all of us sometimes. Er...no, you posted a condescending comment with a whole "they can be happy or sad depending on how they handle it" aspect to it. Its not a mental health issue like clinical depression ffs, its introversion. Don't conflate the two. I never wrote it's a mental health issue. I never intended it to be condescending either. I was however talking about character traits that aren't always easy to live with, just like somebody with a big ego can have problems in his life or on a personal level with others if he doesn't realize it or just doesn't care, so can introverted persons. Different characters make it easier or harder to get along with others, or to keep a good mood or to keep yourself motivated, I wasn't even judging being introverted as something negative, being extroverted brings its own problems on the table. My point is the very fact you needed to spell that out implies you think its some sort of problem that has to be "dealt with". Which is utterly absurd. Think about it this way: is it a problem to enjoy quietly reading or...I don't know...fishing (introversion) as opposed to going out to clubs and dancing (extraversion) on a weekend? I did so because you immediately became defensive about it and I wanted to tell you that it is in fact not something superspecial or horrible, apparently I failed though. It can be a problem, just like a lot of other character traits, however I never said it has to be dealt with, I said how somebody with an introverted personality is doing depends on how he or she handles it, e.g. if a shy person lets his shyness stop him from doing what he wants, or if a loud person who has his heart on his tongue says something stupid or offending to people without realising it. Or to edit a positive scenario into this, if an introvert finds a quiet and relaxed job that challenges him and gives him time to think. Personality being a problem is a different issue from introversion vs extraversion. Which may just be the reason why I wrote this at the very beginning of the conversation: TL is a very accepting place, but saying that "the way someone is" or simpler his character cannot be a problem goes a bit far, don't you think? | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On March 13 2014 23:25 SilentchiLL wrote: I never wrote it's a mental health issue. I never intended it to be condescending either. I was however talking about character traits that aren't always easy to live with, just like somebody with a big ego can have problems in his life or on a personal level with others if he doesn't realize it or just doesn't care, so can introverted persons. Different characters make it easier or harder to get along with others, or to keep a good mood or to keep yourself motivated, I wasn't even judging being introverted as something negative, being extroverted brings its own problems on the table. I did so because you immediately became defensive about it and I wanted to tell you that it is in fact not something superspecial or horrible, apparently I failed though. It can be a problem, just like a lot of other character traits, however I never said it has to be dealt with, I said how somebody with an introverted personality is doing depends on how he or she handles it, e.g. if a shy person lets his shyness stop him from doing what he wants, or if a loud person who has his heart on his tongue says something stupid or offending to people without realising it. Or to edit a positive scenario into this, if an introvert finds a quiet and relaxed job that challenges him and gives him time to think. Fair enough, but your wording was somewhat questionable earlier. | ||
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 13 2014 23:32 -Celestial- wrote: Fair enough, but your wording was somewhat questionable earlier. Feel free to tell me how then, I always aim to make myself easier to understand and would like to avoid stuff like this in the future. EDIT: I do think that part of the blame is on you here though | ||
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Haxity
United States119 Posts
Bro the reason youre not a strong leader is because youre too wrapped up in your own world right now. Look at the number of times you used "I" or "me" in this blog. A leader doesnt think of himself first before his team. A leader is trying to constantly understand whats going on in not only the head of his enemies, but his allies as well. So when you're thinking of picking an offlaner, you're not just thinking "oh what's a good counter to xyz" youre thinking "what does my offlaner WANT to play, what does he like to play, etc." And sometimes you have to IGNORE that desire of your teammates to play certain heroes or use certain playstyles, but that exactly your job as the leader to know when things are/arent appropriate. You mention feeling trapped, and out of control, and that stems from you not being proactive in your own life. Working hard is such a subjective thing to analyze, especially when we look at our own lives. I mean are you REALLY doing everything in your power to make TL the best team it can possibly be? Whether its uncomfortable or not? I doubt it very much. Leaders are motivators, and people that have as negative of an outlook on things as you've displayed in this blog are demotivaters. Do you really think that at the absolute highest levels of competitive dota people cant feel your energy (or lack thereof)? C'mon bro... Be real... Have some respect for the people around you and realize that you are the common denominator in all of your life's events. If shit is negative, if youre not making friends, if youre not having fun, if you feel depressed, then who is going to solve that? Team Liquid blogging? No dude no... Make some internal changes on your own time, and see how the team responds. If theyre equally as shitty after you start leading by example (practicing harder, putting more effort into team bonding/friendship, etc.) then go find a new team to play for. It's really that simple. If you put in everything youve got and its still a shit team dynamic, then move on to the next group of players that you think would be more in line with your goals. | ||
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BrokenBang
United States3 Posts
On March 13 2014 22:31 SilentchiLL wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introvert#Introversion EDIT since a blank article and quote seem kinda ill-mannered: Being an introvert does hinder ones ability to be a leader, if you have problems to make yourself heard in a group then it's often harder to lead, especially in a stressful situation like in dota where strong calls have to be made or where it can go horribly to mix up different opinions on drafting. It says right at the bottom of your wiki link that "Introversion is not the same thing as shyness but it is often mistaken as such by extraverts. Introverts prefer solitary to social activities, but do not fear social encounters like shy people do". Being unable to make calls in a game of dota is more an attribute of shyness rather having a dwindling mental battery. Playing a game of dota itself with other people is a social encounter itself. Introverts are not so easily overwhelmed by a couple hours of social activity with only 5 people you need to talk to. In fact, your wiki link also says that introverts "... may enjoy interactions with close friends". A group of 5 can easily fit the bill of close friends. Do not confuse inability or refusal to speak out with introversion. A lot of people don't want speak out because they don't want to be held accountable for what they say, especially in a game like dota where blame gets tossed around whenever something goes wrong. A leader will provide purpose, motivation, and direction regardless of whether the leader is an introvert or extrovert. Fluff has said himself that currently Team Liquid does not seem to have a clear leader. I quote "How many of you readers know of teams that just have no one out there calling shots or being assertive about the team?". That statement in itself suggests that Team Liquid has no one to provide purpose, motivation, or purpose. Unless you want to suggest that all 5 in Liquid are introverts, I think its better to say that Liquid has no one stepping up to the plate rather than introverts have a harder time leading. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
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Skynx
Turkey7150 Posts
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 14 2014 00:22 BrokenBang wrote: It says right at the bottom of your wiki link that "Introversion is not the same thing as shyness but it is often mistaken as such by extraverts. Introverts prefer solitary to social activities, but do not fear social encounters like shy people do". Being unable to make calls in a game of dota is more an attribute of shyness rather having a dwindling mental battery. Playing a game of dota itself with other people is a social encounter itself. Introverts are not so easily overwhelmed by a couple hours of social activity with only 5 people you need to talk to. In fact, your wiki link also says that introverts "... may enjoy interactions with close friends". A group of 5 can easily fit the bill of close friends. Do not confuse inability or refusal to speak out with introversion. A lot of people don't want speak out because they don't want to be held accountable for what they say, especially in a game like dota where blame gets tossed around whenever something goes wrong. A leader will provide purpose, motivation, and direction regardless of whether the leader is an introvert or extrovert. Read the whole discussion, Bang. | ||
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Vadrigar
Bulgaria2379 Posts
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Kosak
Czech Republic193 Posts
MOVE ON, you guys are in the slump since TI3 ended and youre unable to freshen up and find the joy of the game again, either sit together, work things out, smoke a joint and laugh and start playing the next game with a clear mind with an only goal to claim victory after victory or disband, harsh as that may sound, its really no shame to admit that you cant handle this sort of a pressure and if you feel like you guys as a team dont have much space to improve anymore, its perfectly legit to be brave enough to say stop gl | ||
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 14 2014 01:29 FFGenerations wrote: SilentchiLL is a troll, ignore him Seriously? | ||
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Slardar
Canada7593 Posts
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
On March 14 2014 01:38 Slardar wrote: Tentatively waiting for glorious reaction by management. Will they play vs Digniziggle today? Naz should immediately release him and they should use a stand in imo | ||
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Testuser
6469 Posts
On March 13 2014 22:52 SilentchiLL wrote: A lot of things hinder ones ability to do certain things, but that doesn't meant hat they make them impossible, also never claimed that they would. Seriously, can you guys stop seeing these things in such an extreme way just because it touches you personally? You talk about seeing things black and white but yet you act like I made some kind of absolute statement along the lines of "introverts can't be leaders". This started out as a discussion on it being a problem or not, it is in this case, it was never about the question if introverts can be leaders or not. Not just for some introverts, for many of them. Can we stop splitting hairs here? We're talking about a specific case (Fluff) and just because not everybody is like that but most are doesn't mean I have to go fully on the path of political correctness here, right? If the majority of the people of a certain island have bad eyesight calling people who live on that island bad at looking far doesn't make what I say completely wrong, does it? It also doesn't mean that I just called all of them blind though. I know this is a topic that many take personally, but even if you do there's no need to defend a certain line so strictly here, just take what you read into context and believe that your conversational partner isn't so dumb to always think in extremes. If we'd always have to make sure to consider small minorities or exceptions then broad exceptions of any kind would be completely impossible ? But you're wrong? Being an introvert doesn't mean that you're a bad leader. We're not splitting hairs, your statement simply isn't correct. I'm sorry, you're asking me not to think of you as being dumb, but you refuse to accept that what you're saying is a wrong and just a silly generalization. I can google too | ||
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 14 2014 02:44 Testuser wrote: ? But you're wrong? Being an introvert doesn't mean that you're a bad leader. We're not splitting hairs, your statement simply isn't correct. I'm sorry, you're asking me not to think of you as being dumb, but you refuse to accept that what you're saying is a wrong and just a silly generalization. I can google too Once again we're talking about a specific person in a specific game in which the reservedness he feels causes him to have problems with stepping up as a leader. And no, it's not a silly generalization, being less outspoken in groups is far spread among introverts and I just adressed exactly that in the post you're quoting. Jesus. | ||
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giftdgecko
United States2126 Posts
On March 13 2014 22:27 Unleashing wrote: Being introverted does not affect your ability to lead at all. You seem to think being introverted means being asocial, it does not. Bill gates is an introvert, Abraham Lincoln was an introvert, Mahatma Gandhi was an introvert(And many others but there's no reason to keep listing names). Clearly being an introvert does not at all prevent someone from being an effective and good leader. Introverts can be just as good at being social as an extrovert, the difference is that introverts need time on their own to regain their mental energy while extroverts can regain this energy while spending time with others, it has fuckall to do with their social skills. An extrovert can easily have the social skills of a potato. Also why the fuck would you give your condolences because someone might an introvert? That alone shows what a fucked up perspective you have about what it means to be introverted, and clearly shows that you have no actual idea about what it actually means to be introverted. Also i really hope TL sorts their things out as a team, i really used to enjoy watching their games but i can't really say the same for their most recent performance Your examples of introverted leaders bugs me because Gates and Ghandi led more by example and simply let other make up their minds, yes they both changed the world but it was difficult for them. For Lincoln it's pretty well known that while he was a great leader it took everything out of him to do it. His health had deteriorated significantly because of the decisions he had to make and how much he stressed over them. I don't think it is impossible for an introvert to lead, I think the kind of leading he is talking about for dota will make it more difficult for an introvert. Every introvert I know has problems with groups of people because they second guess their decisions or don't offer their opinion when it mattered and regret it later. I'm not saying this is always a part of it but from experience it happens. Fluff doesn't come across as any different, he needs unquestional loyalty because he is going to question himself enough already, that's why he gave up the drafters chair in the first place. The main problem with his post isn't that he is an introvert though, it is that he had a problem with the team and wouldn't talk to the team about it. Instead he sulked, secretly hoping they lose and turn to him, and it has showed in his poor play. Liquids supports have been a big problem in their games and he is half of that. I think everyone agreed they needed some kind of shock to the system and maybe this was it, but to do it this way on his employers site is pretty passive aggressive in my eyes and you lose some respect for the man. | ||
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SnowfaLL
Canada730 Posts
You feel theres no friendship in the team? You have to make it happen then. Pride should not get in the way, if you feel "disrespected" all the time, thats often in your own mind and not always the case. Either way, its a very selfish outlook as a leader. I'd be up for Nazgul releasing FLUFF and signing someone else ASAP if it doesn't hurt their TI4 chances.. if MSS would play support, that'd be great, hes a very solid player. Also, FLUFF recently in February laughed at me when I told him to suggest to TL to pick disruptor more often because I thought he was one of the best heroes in the game.. Two weeks later, it seems the only games TL wins is when they happen to get disruptor. | ||
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Romitelli
Brunei Darussalam566 Posts
On March 14 2014 04:29 giftdgecko wrote: Your examples of introverted leaders bugs me because Gates and Ghandi led more by example and simply let other make up their minds, yes they both changed the world but it was difficult for them. For Lincoln it's pretty well known that while he was a great leader it took everything out of him to do it. His health had deteriorated significantly because of the decisions he had to make and how much he stressed over them. I don't think it is impossible for an introvert to lead, I think the kind of leading he is talking about for dota will make it more difficult for an introvert. Every introvert I know has problems with groups of people because they second guess their decisions or don't offer their opinion when it mattered and regret it later. I'm not saying this is always a part of it but from experience it happens. Fluff doesn't come across as any different, he needs unquestional loyalty because he is going to question himself enough already, that's why he gave up the drafters chair in the first place. The main problem with his post isn't that he is an introvert though, it is that he had a problem with the team and wouldn't talk to the team about it. Instead he sulked, secretly hoping they lose and turn to him, and it has showed in his poor play. Liquids supports have been a big problem in their games and he is half of that. I think everyone agreed they needed some kind of shock to the system and maybe this was it, but to do it this way on his employers site is pretty passive aggressive in my eyes and you lose some respect for the man. Being a leader is not limited to this canned, hollywood-esque notion of a verbose person who leads mainly by direct communication. This image was sold by modern media simply because it's a lot harder to picture a leader who leads by example (in any medium) than inciting such notion of leadership with a few eloquent speeches. Even so, being an introvert is not an excuse for having poor social or communication skills. All three people you mentioned may have been introverts, but they were able to deliver their respective messages as needed. And changing the world is difficult for anyone, introverts and extroverts alike. | ||
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Jeyostyle
Canada1 Post
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GranDGranT
Sri Lanka2141 Posts
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sumsaR
Sweden1812 Posts
/sarcasmoff | ||
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lowercase
Canada1047 Posts
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Ochrow
United States110 Posts
On March 13 2014 04:32 GranDGranT wrote: But really, How has he not been kicked from Liquid yet after this? Simple, they're too busy having him draft. | ||
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hoepie
United Kingdom96 Posts
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
On March 14 2014 05:24 Jeyostyle wrote: As someone who has played with FLUFF during the FIRE days, I could always know what FLUFF has been thinking when they're losing their games. I don't know how it goes for liquid, but I'm pretty sure there is so little conversation going on between the players during ingame / postgame. Which we had 200% on FIRE days, it was all about communication, everyone being able to voice out their own opinion for everyone to listen which I doubt is the case for Liquid, I guess that's a thing you get when you become a much more older player in the competitive scene, you start lacking motivation, (more like getting too used to being a pro player, It's a luxury a lot of players want to achieve.) not have the need to speak with other players but rather with a third-party because they're probably the only ones who are willing to listen and say that you're right. But what they need most of all and is probably the only thing they're lacking is "Trust", which will only probably work if Fluff has full control of the whole game. why give full control to a guy like this though? it must be terrible having a guy like this a captain that complains he doesn't know much about his team mates but instead of constantly making the effort he ignores the team and vents to people outside the team, even a public blog first? I don't know about you, but I wouldn't like to blindly follow a dude that is this selfish, unless he really is way above my level and leads by example. I doubt that's the case though? | ||
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
On March 14 2014 03:04 SilentchiLL wrote: Once again we're talking about a specific person in a specific game in which the reservedness he feels causes him to have problems with stepping up as a leader. And no, it's not a silly generalization, being less outspoken in groups is far spread among introverts and I just adressed exactly that in the post you're quoting. Jesus. My frustration with your arguments is that you keep coming back to the implication that introverts are shy/meek/silent, which isn't at all true... like introverts by nature have opinions, but just don't share them. The fact that you earlier referred to introversion as "a problem" and commented on introverts being happy or sad based on "how they handle (introversion)" makes me feel like you think it's some kind of disease or something. It's clear that somewhere along the way you decided that introverts were lesser humans or that introversion was a negative aspect of a person, so it'd probably be best if you stopped pretending you've some insight of value on introverts and leave that to the actual people that -COUGH COUGH- suffer from it -COUGH-. | ||
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rhythmrenegade
Belgium201 Posts
I don't know what your intentions are re: staying or going, or if you even read follow-up replies to your blog. I'd like to offer you an idea that had a significant impact on me several years ago. Roughly, Being a man is learning to live with people being mad at you. Let me put this in Jay-Z's words from the Black Album, though his poetry in the last several years has more gild and glitter than substance. I pray I'm forgiven For every bad decision I made Every sister I played Cause I'm still paranoid to this day And it's nobody's fault I made the decisions I made This is the life I chose, or rather, the life that chose me If you can't respect that your whole perspective is wack Maybe you'll love me when I fade to black Holding regret and angst together with confidence and determination. Very difficult. Boldness to make decisions; Empathy and compassion to feel accountable for the bad ones; Courage to continue no matter; Confidence in the imperfect and flawed self. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - When you were with FIRE you were with a group of people who, from your account, all liked each other and were good friends. Leading groups like this is relatively easy. Of course you would have had a good time. Now you have a challenge. If you hold yourself accountable and lead and the team falls apart, You were not the leader for the team and the team was not yours to lead. Everyone moves on. Do the right thing. | ||
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ZeNd0kUn
United States331 Posts
I'll be rooting for Team Liquid. And even if you get booted ( hope not ) I'll root for you in your new team. Team Liquid beating LGD even though it wasnt even winning the tournament gave me more joy than any other game in the whole tournament. Win or lose I just hope you guys have a good time playing as a team. And I hope you all form to be a real team rather than a bunch of dudes smacked together because of individual talent. Someones got to step up and just call the shots and the others have to follow. Yeah it will get messy with some experimentation but if you all can get past that step and remain a team ... you all will be a better one. Rather than playing polite and not voicing your feelings and disagreement of strategy, skill, performance just makes everyone feel unsatisfied. I bet most of your other team mates might even have some frustrations themselves that they don't dare share. Hope your rant works out well for you. Peace! | ||
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iokke
United States1179 Posts
like the "my way or highway" things, or wanting people to have complete faith in you but not giving the same benefit to your captain, and so on. It didn't seem like you put much of an effort in after a certain period of time. Maybe i just read it in the wrong tone or something.. While having confidence in yourself is a good thing, your attitude was off-putting to me. I'm relatively new to the dota scene, but judging from your post, you had an awesome team that followed you but y'all ended up breaking up (i guess), Then Complexity... then you had the opportunity to lead TL and that didn't work out either... maybe you're a good leader but not as great as you think? Also in between the lines this blog read to me as if you were calling your entire team out of being so bad/divided that they could not let you fulfill your true greatness=/ kinda threw everyone under the bus there, even if not directly to be fair most of us do this, thinking we're much better then we actually are, we deserve more but just aren't noticed and so on. I've also done the whole "if only people can see/understand me for who I truly am as well as my whole potential" thing.... as have most tl users prolly. If you truly are gifted you have to show it, not wait for others to "discover" you. and to be brutally honest you had quite a few chances to do so | ||
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Sabu113
United States11047 Posts
Hope you guys work it out! | ||
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vult
United States9400 Posts
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 14 2014 09:23 Staboteur wrote: My frustration with your arguments is that you keep coming back to the implication that introverts are shy/meek/silent, which isn't at all true... like introverts by nature have opinions, but just don't share them. The fact that you earlier referred to introversion as "a problem" and commented on introverts being happy or sad based on "how they handle (introversion)" makes me feel like you think it's some kind of disease or something. It's clear that somewhere along the way you decided that introverts were lesser humans or that introversion was a negative aspect of a person, so it'd probably be best if you stopped pretending you've some insight of value on introverts and leave that to the actual people that -COUGH COUGH- suffer from it -COUGH-. My frustration with your whole posts is that you chime into a goddamn discussion without reading all of it and making me repeat myself. Read back, you will notice that you misunderstood me about the disease thing (for fuck's sake I clarified that in 3 different posts are you serious?), I didn't even say that it was a negative aspect but just that it has its bad sides, which extroversion has too (and I mentioned that as well, so how about reading more than just one post of a discussion before giving your opinion next time?). What the hell man, I also said why I connected being an introvert with being more reserved in groups here, since MANY of them have that problem and because FLUFF does and we are talking about Fluff, which makes it also senseless to mention some great introvert leaders to me since I never said that they can't be leaders, they can be great leaders, but it does make it harder, especially when it's about dota (and since we're talking about Fluff and dota that's kinda what this is about). Seriously, what the hell man, are you trying to misunderstand me on purpose or did you seriously just read that one posted and then ignored all the other ones where all of this could have been cleared up? Yes, I mad. | ||
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
So ill just say to you what i tell myself. Man the fuck up you pussy, to live is to struggle. | ||
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Jelissei
193 Posts
(...)they can be great leaders, but it does make it harder, especially when it's (...) I think thats where you hit a trigger. This is when you make it sound like a negative aspect. If you said "but it does make it different" there probably wouldnt be such a big discussion. | ||
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 14 2014 22:20 Jelissei wrote: @SilentchiLL: I think thats where you hit a trigger. This is when you make it sound like a negative aspect. If you said "but it does make it different" there probably wouldnt be such a big discussion. Of course it makes it harder to lead in some situations, but there are also advantages to it, should I really name an advantage for every disadvantage of something just so it doesn't "sound like a negative aspect"? It's a slightly touchy subject due to the negative connotations it has in the mainstream, but if introverted people are especially common here shouldn't it be easier here to have a conversation about it here without people always thinking and going for the extremes in their posts, instead of being even more extreme and negative about it? I mean, Staboteur actually accused me of thinking of introverted people are "lesser humans" (lol) and several people mentioned introverted leaders to disprove me as if I said that they could never be leaders. The funny thing about this is that even though some people here basically treated me like they would treat a racist they don't know me, they don't know that I have some introverted aspects about myself (as well as extroverted ones, I'm weird I guess), and I'm perfectly fine with those. I read thick novels since I was 8, enjoy time alone and I've already been with buddies on a spanish island for constant drinking and having fun for a week but at one day I just needed peace and quiet for myself to relax, think and read while they went on a boat-trip (partied again in the evening, yay), at the same time I'm great infront of crowds, outgoing, pretty assertive and love to talk to people (and now I also sound like an egomaniac, though I really just checked the wikipedia site on extrovertism and mentioned the first 4 things that fit me). It's as if they'd call a guy with a black mother and a white father a white supremacist. I know I could have prevented being treated like a racist if I would have wrote that before, or if I would have said that I know several introverts and was in love with two already, but does somebody really have to say "I have a black friend, but..." before he says something that could be considered racist? And to be honest I didn't expect such an extreme backlash, lol. | ||
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husniack
203 Posts
Edit: Could some one provide a Spark notes for The Clockwork Manifesto? | ||
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Dracolich70
Denmark3820 Posts
On March 14 2014 09:23 Staboteur wrote: I, myself is both an extrovert and a introvert. Whenever I am introverted, I seek solace, do not communicate, no social interaction.My frustration with your arguments is that you keep coming back to the implication that introverts are shy/meek/silent, which isn't at all true... like introverts by nature have opinions, but just don't share them. The fact that you earlier referred to introversion as "a problem" and commented on introverts being happy or sad based on "how they handle (introversion)" makes me feel like you think it's some kind of disease or something. It's clear that somewhere along the way you decided that introverts were lesser humans or that introversion was a negative aspect of a person, so it'd probably be best if you stopped pretending you've some insight of value on introverts and leave that to the actual people that -COUGH COUGH- suffer from it -COUGH-. I think most of you misinterprete what SilentChill tries to say, and perhaps more regarding your own insecurities about being introverts, when going up in defence. While you can be a great leader while being an introvert, there are just things you can not muster, that might be needed at a given time(just like in this scenario) - which is also why leaders often have right hands, carrying out tasks that are difficult for themselves, or the other just better at. There are positives and negatives surrounding being an extrovert or introvert, and most of it depend on those you work with. Seemingly a more extroverted path might have been more helpful with these fellow players. Just like when Loda was the one that told EternalEnvy, that he would not only not captain, but not be part of the team. Loda showed leadership in doing the tough job. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On March 16 2014 00:59 Dracolich70 wrote: I, myself is both an extrovert and a introvert. Whenever I am introverted, I seek solace, do not communicate, no social interaction. I think most of you misinterprete what SilentChill tries to say, and perhaps more regarding your own insecurities about being introverts, when going up in defence. While you can be a great leader while being an introvert, there are just things you can not muster, that might be needed at a given time(just like in this scenario) - which is also why leaders often have right hands, carrying out tasks that are difficult for themselves, or the other just better at. There are positives and negatives surrounding being an extrovert or introvert, and most of it depend on those you work with. Seemingly a more extroverted path might have been more helpful with these fellow players. Just like when Loda was the one that told EternalEnvy, that he would not only not captain, but not be part of the team. Loda showed leadership in doing the tough job. Exactly, leroy jenkins did basically the same thing as loda. | ||
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Dracolich70
Denmark3820 Posts
On March 16 2014 01:04 govie wrote: No, Leroy Jenkins acted on his own accord(or at least that is how they wanted to play the joke out). Loda acted in agreement with the rest(-EE).Exactly, leroy jenkins did basically the same thing as loda. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
just too close to ti4 to risk the invite | ||
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corona_0489k
United States27 Posts
While this is very heartfelt and well-written, the glaring issue is whether leadership is something that just falls into your lap, or something that you normally have to earn. Sometimes, it will mean performing better than everyone else on your team (if they're the type to follow the "alphas"). Sometimes, it will mean making people feel good about themselves. Sometimes, it will have to be you giving up a position or status, and just doing your best in the shadows. Leadership is service, it's servant-hood to the those being led. It's not about power over others, or control, but about sharing and learning and growing together, and being the catalyst for that even at the cost of your own "self-respect." Maybe the team is just full of too many "egos." But hey that's what people say about DK, Na'Vi, etc. and they're still able to function really well. At the end of the day, you have to be able to share yourself, share your vision, and do your best to make the others do the same. There is no manual for leadership. It's built gradually on a case-to-case basis. EDIT: Forgot the most important part I'd like to share. Fluff, just take responsibility. And show that you deserve that responsibility. You don't have to go off on teammates, or be a dictator, to get things done. Prove yourself, and earn that captaincy. But in all of it, you have to show that you have all their best interests at heart. You don't have to be best friends with them, as this is a professional team, but you have to be able to communicate that adage: "I've got your back, and I'll leave you to take care of mine." I have to agree. I cant say that I dont think your leadership is the better one because I think it is. However, your blog seems very whiney and kid-like "I'm a leader that demands respect". I dont really know the specifics of the teams relationships but from watching past videos I say that your teamates respect you and know your capabilities as a leader. So my perception is that most of all of this falls on you. Sorry, I'm just giving you my honest opinion. That being said, I hope that you can overcome and triumph over this issue. I believe in you, your leadership, and in the team that you lead. I really am a big fan of your leadership. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On March 12 2014 15:03 Caladbolg wrote: While this is very heartfelt and well-written, the glaring issue is whether leadership is something that just falls into your lap, or something that you normally have to earn. Sometimes, it will mean performing better than everyone else on your team (if they're the type to follow the "alphas"). Sometimes, it will mean making people feel good about themselves. Sometimes, it will have to be you giving up a position or status, and just doing your best in the shadows. Leadership is service, it's servant-hood to the those being led. It's not about power over others, or control, but about sharing and learning and growing together, and being the catalyst for that even at the cost of your own "self-respect." Maybe the team is just full of too many "egos." But hey that's what people say about DK, Na'Vi, etc. and they're still able to function really well. At the end of the day, you have to be able to share yourself, share your vision, and do your best to make the others do the same. There is no manual for leadership. It's built gradually on a case-to-case basis. EDIT: Forgot the most important part I'd like to share. Fluff, just take responsibility. And show that you deserve that responsibility. You don't have to go off on teammates, or be a dictator, to get things done. Prove yourself, and earn that captaincy. But in all of it, you have to show that you have all their best interests at heart. You don't have to be best friends with them, as this is a professional team, but you have to be able to communicate that adage: "I've got your back, and I'll leave you to take care of mine." I'd like to note that there are a great many manuals on leadership. Given its importance in military matters it has been studied and discussed quite thoroughly, and several methods have been developed. I'm not that familiar with them myself, but the literature for them is out there. | ||
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Heartscry
United Kingdom291 Posts
Publicly criticising your teammates but still claiming to be leadership material? | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
I know i'd love to focus on that part, as strategy is my forte; game sense decent, and my mechanics are poor. I volunteer to help if they want me Also they really need to look up some of the manuals on how to handle stuff like this, effective after action reviews, and such. It sounds like a serious lack of team communication. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
So sweet | ||
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makmeatt
2024 Posts
On March 16 2014 08:41 govie wrote: 2 wins, 2 good drafts So sweet It's a good start, looking forward to seeing more! | ||
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CDRdude
United States5625 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [What really happened] + You guys won because I wore my Team Liquid shirt for good luck. You're welcome | ||
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pcLume
United States79 Posts
On March 12 2014 23:20 pcLume wrote: I can't imagine any organization would keep a person with your mindset on the roster, and it's even more unimaginable that you expect teammates to follow you after posting some of the shit you've posted here. Negativity and apprehension will kill every hope and dream you have ever had and unfortunately every word you wrote here sounds like you have been negative and hesitant from day 1. Winners don't go into tournaments hoping to learn and grow. They don't "expect to fail" or "want to fail" when shit goes south. If you don't want to be labeled as emo I suggest you go back and read what you've posted here and give us a reason to think otherwise. This post is absolutely ridiculous and it honestly sounds like the problem right from the beginning has been you. Man enough to admit when I'm wrong. Good games, and good drafts against Cloud 9. Keep it up guys, lets see how far you can take this. | ||
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NInoff
Bulgaria1105 Posts
I was called hater back then, and all most of the comments before games were "Go TL" and "Liquid Fighting", and "Bad Luck" after the games. I am really happy that finally something is happening, and now when he is putting his head on the line, i think that FLUFF deserves the chance to try and make this team work. After all he was drafting last February when Liquid Dota was stomping the western scene. He brought some really cool strats in to the meta, and showed the world that Visage is legit hero, because noone was picking him back then. I am kind of scared that this might be too late, because if it fails it is going to be a lost year for the team, but i really, really hope that it can work. Remember - the fans don't want 100% wins, to believe in the team once again. All we want is solid stable draft with good execution and please TALK to eachother a lot in game, the games last month made me really doubt that. | ||
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SnowfaLL
Canada730 Posts
On March 16 2014 10:56 pcLume wrote: Man enough to admit when I'm wrong. Good games, and good drafts against Cloud 9. Keep it up guys, lets see how far you can take this. I don't think you were wrong at all.. Three facts we've learned about FLUFF: 1) He is a really, really good drafter and captain. Liquid has looked capable of beating Navi and Alliance with him at the helm in early 2013 (even did beat them at times). Even with Korok and ixmike, they were a top 5 in the world team in early 2013. And we know skill-wise, Qovjqa and wayto are superior than them. 2) FLUFF has major psychological/emotional issues that hinder him from being a good leader, most of it is all in his head. 3) Because said issues from FLUFF, and poor communication overall by the team, there is no surprise why they are doing so poorly lately when someone other than FLUFF has the responsibility. It's basically FLUFF's way or they fail because FLUFF won't buy in to anyone else drafting/captaining, yet he didn;t have the balls to take the helm himself and be a true leader - Maybe this will be the awakening we have been waiting for, and maybe Liquid will start performing up to the "Liquid" standard (BW/SC2) but at the same token, the whole way this came about, public meltdown and all, is not the Nazgul way. I'm surprised they didn't fire FLUFF on the spot, but I'm not surprised we haven't heard any comments by anyone from the organization since. | ||
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MirageTaN
Singapore871 Posts
On March 17 2014 10:23 SnowfaLL wrote: I don't think you were wrong at all.. Three facts we've learned about FLUFF: 1) He is a really, really good drafter and captain. Liquid has looked capable of beating Navi and Alliance with him at the helm in early 2013 (even did beat them at times). Even with Korok and ixmike, they were a top 5 in the world team in early 2013. And we know skill-wise, Qovjqa and wayto are superior than them. 2) FLUFF has major psychological/emotional issues that hinder him from being a good leader, most of it is all in his head. 3) Because said issues from FLUFF, and poor communication overall by the team, there is no surprise why they are doing so poorly lately when someone other than FLUFF has the responsibility. It's basically FLUFF's way or they fail because FLUFF won't buy in to anyone else drafting/captaining, yet he didn;t have the balls to take the helm himself and be a true leader - Maybe this will be the awakening we have been waiting for, and maybe Liquid will start performing up to the "Liquid" standard (BW/SC2) but at the same token, the whole way this came about, public meltdown and all, is not the Nazgul way. I'm surprised they didn't fire FLUFF on the spot, but I'm not surprised we haven't heard any comments by anyone from the organization since. dude this is making liquid better. Teams become one when they understand each other and what fluff is doing now is rallying them and making them united under his leadership.One voice one action one body. I mean its working and I love it.This might look very grim and bad for the future of Liquid but it isn't . The only reason why Nazgul has risen his voice is because he understands what this team needs, a clear leader. To quote robert baratheon: which is bigger? one or five? ONE or five. One army unified by one purpose by one leader or 5. I completely agree on what FLUFF is trying to achieve here and the flaws of Liquid are very evident even in their games: they lack coordination, but in their most recent games vsCloud9, they showed improvements. I want to wish Liquid all the best, they can take down EG as top dogs in America and they will | ||
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Darkren
Canada1841 Posts
psychology 101 everybody | ||
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lessQQmorePEWPEW
Jamaica921 Posts
tough times call for more open communications and im glad you got another change with TL. use it and prove urself or you will be the laughing stock for years to come. good luck | ||
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Hds
France200 Posts
So far so good Liquid, I love this | ||
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MrProb
Thailand794 Posts
Sometimes, before you rise to the top you have to fall into the deepest of hell hole. | ||
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dcttr66
United States555 Posts
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On March 21 2014 07:47 dcttr66 wrote: You need to get team members that give you respect I suppose. I think I am searching for that at the moment. It's hard to find and I don't think I've managed to get as high as you in prominence because I couldn't tolerate disrespect like you forced yourself to. The obvious solution to the problems of both of you would be to be humble but firm as a leader until you've earned yourself respect with your actions. Demanding respect without earning it first is always risky, if you fail to pay back the respect your teammates have given you blindly with success, you'll lose their respect and maybe even your team. (Note that respect doesn't equal listening to calls and sticking to your gameplan here, but if they don't do that then you're just not their leader.) | ||
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taifhamid1
United States1 Post
maybe get a new player if that's possible, change leadership, sit with the team see what they want, watch your games see what you did wrong maybe you didn't ban the right hero? or you didn't go with the right lane? or your support didn't place a ward at needed moment? or thinks as simple as calling missing? as a new leader you SHOULD go through all of these thinks and try to fix what's broken which is your motivation which i can clearly see that you lost maybe take a little break from pro matches start from the bottom again, it doesn't matter if we think you can do it but do you believe that you can do it? | ||
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Hellbat
223 Posts
anyways good luck in life fluff, please try hard on ladder tho. I want to see you get 7k before demon | ||
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