That should be an eye-catching enough title to get a few clicks, so with that out of the way let me pre-face this blog with a small update on what I've been up to recently.
Preface: 2013
I spent the first half of 2013 just playing poker, getting ready to move, and traveling a bit (Hong Kong with my girlfriend, great trip). Started feeling a crazy itch for something competitive when summer started and actually played a little bit of SC2 (my profile says I played about a 100 games with around 75% winrate) before I replaced it wtih... MMA! I've been training 5 days a week, 3-4 hours per day since around July along with cutting out 99% of all junk food and I'm in the best shape of my life basically.
Me with Korean pro fighter Bae Myung Ho
I'd like to have my first amateur fight this year. The rest of the year, I spent playing poker and - once again - traveling (Japan and Sweden, both of which were completely amazing trips but this isn't the blog for that).
Anyway, I didn't really follow SC2 all that much during this time, just didn't feel like I had the time or inclination... but then at the end of January I busted one of my ribs a bit during wrestling practice with a giant korean guy (I'm 80kg, he's 100kg and he did a hiptoss from clinch and landed on my side... ouch). Thankfully I didn't break the rib (just bruised, which still meant agony anytime I sneezed or coughed for the next 2-3 weeks), but coupled with a cold it did give me some down time from both Poker and MMA.... So I started watching SC2 again!
Dead game?
As I mentioned I found myself with a bit of free time, and I started reading TL again, noticing what tournaments were going on and what not... From my initial reading I was sort of expecting SC2 to be in a horrible place with "no hope for the future" (if you get the reference, you're pretty old school by SC2 standards), every game an all-in or a swarm host camping fest.
But I've got to say, after having now watched IEM Sao Paulo, ASUS Rog, plenty of GSL and Proleague matches as well as most of the games from the on-going IEM Cologne... what I have seen in these games and what I expected from the comments in threads beforehand, could not be further removed.
I can very honestly say that in terms of watchability, the game has never been even close to where it is at now. Let me give you a few examples of the state of the game when I left.
Yeah. WoL had some really good periods too (the era that produced Nestea vs SC was amazing), but not only would I say that maps now are better, but so are the players, and the actual base game!
Some of the things people really wanted were ways for terran and protoss to scout early game, protoss to have a harassing unit, and for there to be more fight over map control/positioning. Well...
- The hots era reaper is amazing for scouting, and I think has made the game so much better compared to the mist of conflict present in WoL. - Mothership core might be a bit too strong, but overall this has definitely made the game better... PvP is maybe not the perfect matchup, but compared to WoL? Is there anyone who wants to go back to that? - The swarm host. You know what? I think this is a great unit. Yeah, it's not perfect right now but you know what I've been seeing that I basically never saw in the past? The map actually being more than a theater for two death balls to collide. It probably needs some changes, but it's really not the first time in the history of starcraft that something has seemed stale... which brings me to my next point of contention with the current discourse.
Oh and before I forget, as much as people love to hate on Reality vs SoulKey, any game that has dozens of pro-players tweeting at eachother arguing about what to nickname an especially heroic unit in the game... can't be that big of a disaster.
But in Broodwar...
... Nobody ever balance whined... there was no turtling.... everything was perfect...
Look at the links from 2006 and earlier and watch the tears.
I can't find any good screenshots of this, but back around 2004~2006, most PvZs (especially vs european zergs, which is funny considering its analogous to the current situation) the zergs gameplan would be to get to 3 bases, spam lurker/spore/sunken and then depending on the map, take islands (and use the same defense there) while dropping ultra/ling, or just go straight 3 base hive ultra ling into more bases with the same defense.... It really did not look too different from SH turtle, and was infuriatingly hard to break.
How was it solved? Game evolved, maps got better, etc. I'm not saying SH is the exact same situation, but it's not such a horrible unit that it needs to be removed from the game --- if people had seen some of the games that occurred back during this period of PvZ today, they would have probably called for the BW designers heads.
Another thing that happened was when Protoss players started switching from trying to get carriers every game, into quick arbiter builds... Well, as you can imagine this was a big adjustment for the Terran. When you make the carrier switch, your army will necessarily be smaller (lots of resources and supply tied up into units that wont be ready for a long time since they have to build interceptors too), and as long as the terran is careful, the protoss can't take him head on. Well, everything here changed with arbiters - not only did they make straight up engagements way better for the protoss with stasis and cloak (requiring more conservative use of scan as well), but with recall+ramp stasis, terrans suddenly found themselves with a protoss army in their main and their army halfway across the map...
Terrans did not like this, not at all. Especially on Luna, this was the initial response in strategy change: never attack. Build 30 turrets in your main + spider mines. Camp half the map until protoss mines out trying to fight for the last expansion.
If you've watched any recent BW match, you can tell this didn't last too long, but the fact that it did exist for a while, is something I think people are quick to forget (or just do not know).
So David Kim is actually a hidden progamer, crouching genius?
No idea, but I don't think Blizzard are as clueless as people make them out to be. HotS is a far better game than WoL, todays maps are so far beyond what was available just 2 years ago that it's not even funny. I've been laddering a bit lately and the only map I mind getting at all is Habitation Station, and it's not even a big deal. Compare this to 2011 or early 2012, laddering was honestly a pretty sad experience sometimes with how bad the maps were, and looking back I think this was at least a small factor in killing my motivation to play.
I'm not at all trying to say that the game is perfectly balanced, or that there isn't a lot of room for improvement still, I just don't get this extreme pessimism I sometimes see perpetuated in this forum. We have gone from "Chat channels? People want those?" to a region unlocked game with free to play arcade, from "Ladder maps and tournament maps should be different, tournament maps are too confusing for casual players"... to, well, pretty clearly todays map pool does not follow this creed.
In closing So, as someone who watches the game in bursts every 6 months or so, I have to say the quality of games has approved tremendously, proleague seems stable, GSL is going strong and there has just been an announcement of a potential new korean tournament... Even WCS seems to have improved a lot compared to the first season. Suddenly there's a ton of Koreans living in Europe, and long term that's amazing for the quality of the European ladder. Polt and Violet (and bomber?) have ATHLETE VISAS in the US, that's fucking outrageously cool.
I just don't see why people are so pessimistic.
I'm excited as hell for LotV, and I actually think Blizzard has kept up their track record of making every expansion better than the previous game (Broodwar was a lot better than SC, TFT kicked the crap out of WC3 vanilla, and HotS is every bit as superior to WoL as the previous two games).
I'm not trying to say the game is perfect, especially as someone who isn't playing the game seriously anymore I feel like that would be a bit out of place, but I wish people would be a little more optimistic and try to remember what the game used to be like. It's like how when you practice a lot, you sometimes feel like you aren't improving at all, but if you were to show an outsider a game from day 1 of your training and then a game from day 30, he'd think you were waaaaay better.
SC2 will never be Broodwar, not because it's not as good a game (because it's honestly good enough that it doesn't matter), but because the esports scene is way different today than back then. But what it can be is a really great game, with really amazing tournaments, great personalities and a long life left.
- Jinro
Post Script I've got some more things on my mind, some thoughts on competition and normal life and what not, but I'll save that for another blog as this is already quite long and rambly as is.
Alright, time to sleep. 4 am, IEM making me stay up the latest I've done ..... in like close to a year
Good night, and remember just because one work of art is beautiful doesn't mean another one can't be too!
Nice to hear from you. Great thoughts. Maybe we have just become more demanding towards how blizzard approaches the games - which I don't think is a problem in itself.
i agree with you almost 100% on this, however, you're focusing very much on Europe while America is probably where most of the "balance/dead game" whiners are located.
Though that's not really the point. Most people just hops on a bandwagon train and circle jerk each other off as 99% of them who writes these reddit and tl posts aren't even past master level of game play. They are once again, very influential once Banded together rather than a single entity.
This is what you should focus on rather than reading reddit threads of kids who haven't past their puberty trying to drop some BIG knowledge bombs on how the game works when they never play it in the first place.
It's also in a lot of the live report threads here too tho, not just reddit (I actually dont read reddit at all, always preferred individual community sites ie TL, Liquidpoker or Twoplustwo for poker, sherdog or bloodyelbow for MMA etc), which is too bad. Really wish a game like Reality vs SoulKey could be appreciated (it is still a pretty rare occurence to have a game go THAT long) instead of instantly going to talks of bullshit and imba.
On February 16 2014 04:34 Liquid`Jinro wrote: It's also in a lot of the live report threads here too tho, not just reddit (I actually dont read reddit at all, always preferred individual community sites ie TL, Liquidpoker or Twoplustwo for poker, sherdog or bloodyelbow for MMA etc), which is too bad. Really wish a game like Reality vs SoulKey could be appreciated (it is still a pretty rare occurence to have a game go THAT long) instead of instantly going to talks of bullshit and imba.
Yeah, and I heard it was actually a pretty amazing game.
Good writeup. I agree. Compared to at release and end of WoL, HoTS has vastly changed the game. I'm not sure about the SH since I haven't played or watched in quite a bit but the difference since WoL is obviously there. I also never understood the whole negative mentality of the SCII community. If you love the game, then stop calling it dead and play and watch it. Simple as that really lol
On February 16 2014 04:29 Torte de Lini wrote: StarCraft II just seems weaker in comparison to other titles and different approaches to eSports. There are a lot of inherent flaws naturally.
And what are these "inherent flaws"? Do you just believe that smaller viewer numbers == weaker game?
What a great read. I may not agree with you on every point but I fully agree that SC2 as a game is actually in a great place right now. Now if we could only get all the fans to agree
As someone who played since early beta I completely agree with you Jinro. Also I would like to add that the difficulty and all the talk about SC2 being an easy game compared to BW (which at a point was heavily debated on TL) has also changed a lot. Which is one of the reasons I enjoy watching the game so much right now. All the players in Proleague/GSL are so insanely good at the time it's really amazing and the game still shows a lot of depth in what is possible for the future as strategies develop. I hope they don't change the balance too much in a frenzy, because I think the last ~2 months of SC2 have been the coolest ever.
Well, I agree with you on a lot of things, despite a lot of bitching that goes around the forums the game has indeed improved a lot.
The map pool right up to this season was fantastic and the way Blizzard has handled new maps was a lot better. The MUs all became a lot more dynamic in HoTS and a lot more exciting for the most part. I can honestly say that for 2013 HoTS was a huge improvement to WoL.
But to say that the game still doesn't have some issues is kind of naive, sure the game hasn't yet reached the snooze fest that WoL became at the end but, at this rate its getting there. I think you aren't quite viewing it with the same scrutiny as the rest of the community here on TL, because you haven't watched as much SC2 as the rest of them. I for one saw nearly all premier tournaments last year and nearly all GSTL and Proleague games to boot. I've already seen hundreds of SH games and, after so many of them, I know for sure I don't want many more of them. And thus the current trend of seeing more SH games and also longer ones worries me greatly.
I agree that a lot of the doom and gloom posts are still stupid, I do hate the disrespect that a lot of top end players are receiving because of all of these recent trends, but I don't really think they should be ignored either. They are signs of a problem and that things should indeed change.
You posted that BW also had its spurs of bad periods and its own problems, but maps improved, strategies changed and that period ended. All this discontent is the community crying out for a change. The same way your body alerts you to a problem by producing pain, the same way the community and the players are trying to reach out and signal a problem.
I completely agree with you. Starcraft 2 is much more enjoyable to watch right now than it was before. I stopped watching at the end of WoL because it go boring but I now I am watching every big tournament.
On February 16 2014 04:55 Destructicon wrote: Well, I agree with you on a lot of things, despite a lot of bitching that goes around the forums the game has indeed improved a lot.
The map pool right up to this season was fantastic and the way Blizzard has handled new maps was a lot better. The MUs all became a lot more dynamic in HoTS and a lot more exciting for the most part. I can honestly say that for 2013 HoTS was a huge improvement to WoL.
But to say that the game still doesn't have some issues is kind of naive, sure the game hasn't yet reached the snooze fest that WoL became at the end but, at this rate its getting there. I think you aren't quite viewing it with the same scrutiny as the rest of the community here on TL, because you haven't watched as much SC2 as the rest of them. I for one saw nearly all premier tournaments last year and nearly all GSTL and Proleague games to boot. I've already seen hundreds of SH games and, after so many of them, I know for sure I don't want many more of them. And thus the current trend of seeing more SH games and also longer ones worries me greatly.
I agree that a lot of the doom and gloom posts are still stupid, I do hate the disrespect that a lot of top end players are receiving because of all of these recent trends, but I don't really think they should be ignored either. They are signs of a problem and that things should indeed change.
You posted that BW also had its spurs of bad periods and its own problems, but maps improved, strategies changed and that period ended. All this discontent is the community crying out for a change. The same way your body alerts you to a problem by producing pain, the same way the community and the players are trying to reach out and signal a problem.
I actually did point out (tho its probably easy to miss in all of that text), that the game definitely has room for improvements, and I could think of a ton just off hand (for starters the Corrupter has been a bad unit since WoL day 1 which would be fine if it wasn't forced to be built everytime someone makes colossi, and obv the SH needs some work).
And I also definitely acknowledge that I might just not have accumulated enough hatred for swarm hosts yet, but I m also not saying it's perfect, I'm saying that the way it interacts with the map is a very desirable trait.
On February 16 2014 04:55 Destructicon wrote: But to say that the game still doesn't have some issues is kind of naive, sure the game hasn't yet reached the snooze fest that WoL became at the end but, at this rate its getting there. I think you aren't quite viewing it with the same scrutiny as the rest of the community here on TL, because you haven't watched as much SC2 as the rest of them. I for one saw nearly all premier tournaments last year and nearly all GSTL and Proleague games to boot. I've already seen hundreds of SH games and, after so many of them, I know for sure I don't want many more of them.
What in particular about "swarmhost games" is it that bothers you so much, because the zvps involving swarmhosts are not at all like WoL. Even the super passive stephano / foreigner styles of swarmhost v p are more strategic and positional than bl infestor
I thoroughly enjoyed reading your blog. I have a lot of time myself to spend on watching SC2, and I feel that the game is a lot more "orderly" and cleaner than it used to be - closer to the vibe that BW gave off. In BW, every move of a player felt calculated and deliberate, with some kind of intention and established practice behind it. The current state of Hots and the level of play might not quite match that, but it's definitely more similar to me.
On February 16 2014 04:25 Heyoka wrote: That's why all this is so frustrating to read the hate on TL/reddit. SC2 as a game has never been better yet all people want to do is whine.
At least some people get it.
I'm glad Jinro said it. Maybe it will help others slowly realise the same thing.
But you know what is missing in sc2?
Rivalries. Not enough real rivalries atm.
The day we get some real big rivalries, we will see the game push forward again.
On February 16 2014 05:22 Aesop wrote: I thoroughly enjoyed reading your blog. I have a lot of time myself to spend on watching SC2, and I feel that the game is a lot more "orderly" and cleaner than it used to be - closer to the vibe that BW gave off. In BW, every move of a player felt calculated and deliberate, with some kind of intention and established practice behind it. The current state of Hots and the level of play might not quite match that, but it's definitely more similar to me.
Exactly this! I love when a game reaches this state of refinement, the analysis you can do when casting etc also becomes much greater (and I think casting is another thing that has improved, at least ESLs casting is really solid).
On February 16 2014 04:55 Destructicon wrote: But to say that the game still doesn't have some issues is kind of naive, sure the game hasn't yet reached the snooze fest that WoL became at the end but, at this rate its getting there. I think you aren't quite viewing it with the same scrutiny as the rest of the community here on TL, because you haven't watched as much SC2 as the rest of them. I for one saw nearly all premier tournaments last year and nearly all GSTL and Proleague games to boot. I've already seen hundreds of SH games and, after so many of them, I know for sure I don't want many more of them.
What in particular about "swarmhost games" is it that bothers you so much, because the zvps involving swarmhosts are not at all like WoL. Even the super passive stephano / foreigner styles of swarmhost v p are more strategic and positional than bl infestor
Its boring, and I'll explain why. When controlled well, they are nearly never in a position where they can not be cost efficient. You can lose millions of locust over the duration of a game, doesn't matter as long as the SH survive. And since the SH are so cost efficient its hard to get invested into the action and its also incredibly frustrating to watch because you know the guy on the receiving end is being so cost inefficient and there is little he can do against it.
Tanks are a whole lot different, they have some major weaknesses, their range is high, but not as high as SH's potential range, they are still prone to being overrun, they are vulnerable to melee units that get in range, and they are very vunlerable from air attacks. SH fire from such a long range that they never truly feel vulnerable, they aren't vulnerable to melee, and despite the fact they are hard countered by air, you still require detection to kill them.
Edit: Forgot to add, SH not only do damage from range, they create their own meatshield, and for free, against terrans or toss, you could sometimes at least be somewhat cost efficient by destroying the meatshield and then forcing the tanks/ colossus back, otherwise they'd be overun and lost, that dynamic is not possible with SH, because they continually spawn their own protection.
Thus because SH are so safe in general it undermines all the positional and strategic potential they have. When you force a terran to unsiege and move his tanks in order to defend another part of the map, there is a huge moment of tension for the terran, because there is a real posibility for the tanks to be caught unsieged in transit and killed, that dynamic is nearly non existent with SH, because you put them somewhere behind, burrow them to release locust, then move them back to safety.
I agree with Jinro, the way the unit interacts with terrain is indeed interesting, but in its current form its way too efficient, and thus uninteresting. If it had sort of a max range, and a longer burrow time, such that there was a risk to them also being caught unburrowed and killed, then they would be a lot more interesting, and they would actually be truly strategic and positional. You can't have real strategy without real risk.
Edit: I don't want to get into design discussion in Jinro's blog, so I'll finish off by saying that, well despite the current situation we have now HoTS did indeed turn out great, and it improved upon WoL a lot. Its a shitty period we are going trough now with PvT being so one sided and ZvP's being so turtly and long, but like Jinro said, hopefully with the advent of this outcry, thing start changing for the better, new maps and new strategies that hopefully push the game in the right direction.
Jonathan, I'm so glad to hear that you're watching/playing and enjoying it so much. It sounds like I'm coming back to Korea again around the end of June. I'd love to grab a drink, if you're up for it.
On February 16 2014 05:22 Aesop wrote: I thoroughly enjoyed reading your blog. I have a lot of time myself to spend on watching SC2, and I feel that the game is a lot more "orderly" and cleaner than it used to be - closer to the vibe that BW gave off. In BW, every move of a player felt calculated and deliberate, with some kind of intention and established practice behind it. The current state of Hots and the level of play might not quite match that, but it's definitely more similar to me.
Exactly this! I love when a game reaches this state of refinement, the analysis you can do when casting etc also becomes much greater (and I think casting is another thing that has improved, at least ESLs casting is really solid).
I've also got back a bit to watching SC2 from DOTA2 (more like there's seemingly a lot less tournies in dota right now), and games have been actually pretty interesting. I still miss the overall warfare all over the map SC1 had. But still, pretty enjoyable and good casts. So many pros are casting right now that at least I get interesting caster duos and less Tasteless-like bullshit lol -_-
On February 16 2014 04:55 Destructicon wrote: Well, I agree with you on a lot of things, despite a lot of bitching that goes around the forums the game has indeed improved a lot.
The map pool right up to this season was fantastic and the way Blizzard has handled new maps was a lot better. The MUs all became a lot more dynamic in HoTS and a lot more exciting for the most part. I can honestly say that for 2013 HoTS was a huge improvement to WoL.
But to say that the game still doesn't have some issues is kind of naive, sure the game hasn't yet reached the snooze fest that WoL became at the end but, at this rate its getting there. I think you aren't quite viewing it with the same scrutiny as the rest of the community here on TL, because you haven't watched as much SC2 as the rest of them. I for one saw nearly all premier tournaments last year and nearly all GSTL and Proleague games to boot. I've already seen hundreds of SH games and, after so many of them, I know for sure I don't want many more of them. And thus the current trend of seeing more SH games and also longer ones worries me greatly.
I agree that a lot of the doom and gloom posts are still stupid, I do hate the disrespect that a lot of top end players are receiving because of all of these recent trends, but I don't really think they should be ignored either. They are signs of a problem and that things should indeed change.
You posted that BW also had its spurs of bad periods and its own problems, but maps improved, strategies changed and that period ended. All this discontent is the community crying out for a change. The same way your body alerts you to a problem by producing pain, the same way the community and the players are trying to reach out and signal a problem.
There is always room for improvement. But, I'll explain my fear when it comes to SC2. Not that it won't reach the standard or "legacy" of BW (whatever that means) or be the greatest E-Sport of all time. Frankly, I could not give a single shit about any of that. But, that we complain so much and so consistently that we create problems where there are none while also creating new problems from "solving" old problems and end up chasing our tails in an ever decreasing circle. With all the whining that goes on, my fear is that "we as a community" will eventually get what we whine for. And it will not be a better game.
On February 16 2014 04:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote: as someone who watches the game in bursts every 6 months or so
I'd feel the exact same way about how good HotS is if I didn't regularly watch. If they fixed early game TvP and improved the Swarm Host attack mechanic I think the complaining would be cut by an order of magnitude.
I feel like what's gotten so much worse isn't necessarily the game (as you say it's gotten better), but the community. When you think of it, a LOT people (or the so called vocal minority, or whatever...) have been complaing about something in sc2 extremely vehemently since, let's say, the range 5 queen patch. That is a lot of time to get "used" to complaining about basically everything, and it's gotten to a point where, almost always, it's always the solution. Lose in ladder? Cry about balance. Terran loses in GSL? Cry about balance. Boring games? Cry about balance. It's really frustrating
But yeah, amazing post Jinro, i wish more people just simply enjoyed watching the game
On February 16 2014 04:55 Destructicon wrote: But to say that the game still doesn't have some issues is kind of naive, sure the game hasn't yet reached the snooze fest that WoL became at the end but, at this rate its getting there. I think you aren't quite viewing it with the same scrutiny as the rest of the community here on TL, because you haven't watched as much SC2 as the rest of them. I for one saw nearly all premier tournaments last year and nearly all GSTL and Proleague games to boot. I've already seen hundreds of SH games and, after so many of them, I know for sure I don't want many more of them.
What in particular about "swarmhost games" is it that bothers you so much, because the zvps involving swarmhosts are not at all like WoL. Even the super passive stephano / foreigner styles of swarmhost v p are more strategic and positional than bl infestor
Its boring, and I'll explain why. SH are boring because, when controlled well, they are nearly never in a position where they can not be cost efficient. You can lose millions of locust over the duration of a game, doesn't matter as long as the SH survive. And since the SH are so cost efficient its hard to get invested into the action and its also incredibly frustrating to watch because you know the guy on the receiving end is being so cost inefficient and there is little he can do against it.
Tanks are a whole lot different, they have some major weaknesses, their range is high, but not as high as SH's potential range, they are still prone to being overrun, they are vulnerable to melee units that get in range, and they are very vunlerable from air attacks. SH fire from such a long range that they never truly feel vulnerable, they aren't vulnerable to melee, and despite the fact they are hard countered by air, you still require detection to kill them.
Edit: Forgot to add, SH not only do damage from range, they create their own meatshield, and for free, against terrans or toss, you could sometimes at least be somewhat cost efficient by destroying the meatshield and then forcing the tanks/ colossus back, otherwise they'd be overun and lost, that dynamic is not possible with SH, because they continually spawn their own protection.
Thus because SH are so safe in general it undermines all the positional and strategic potential they have. When you force a terran to unsiege and move his tanks in order to defend another part of the map, there is a huge moment of tension for the terran, because there is a real posibility for the tanks to be caught unsieged in transit and killed, that dynamic is nearly non existent with SH, because you put them somewhere behind, burrow them to release locust, then move them back to safety.
I agree with Jinro, the way the unit interacts with terrain is indeed interesting, but in its current form its way too efficient, and thus uninteresting. If it had sort of a max range, and a longer burrow time, such that there was a risk to them also being caught unburrowed and killed, then they would be a lot more interesting, and they would actually be truly strategic and positional. You can't have real strategy without real risk.
Myb problem with the unit is that it frequently ends up in stalemates in which neither side can progress.
My idea for how to make the unit more interesting is (and it might be bad) to make locusts cost energy (or possibly swarmhost hp), and build in a mana regenerating spell into the unit (consume or self cannibalizing), as well as add an overcharge ability that would somehow temporarily either increase the strength of locusts or the speed at which they spawn, in return for the swarmhost then having a long cooldoqn where it cannot spawn any new units.
This way there would be more give and take rather than only take, and the sh would be able to push through in certain spots that it currently cannot.
Another benefit of energy req is that it opens ghosts up as viable soft counter (wonder how good nuke would be at this point, probably cant get in range to force reposition), and if the self cannibalizing version of consume was implemented it would help storm s efficacy.
Anyway this could all be bullshit but its fun to think about.
On February 16 2014 04:25 Heyoka wrote: That's why all this is so frustrating to read the hate on TL/reddit. SC2 as a game has never been better yet all people want to do is whine.
At least some people get it.
I'm glad Jinro said it. Maybe it will help others slowly realise the same thing.
But you know what is missing in sc2?
Rivalries. Not enough real rivalries atm.
The day we get some real big rivalries, we will see the game push forward again.
And thank you for your positivity. I dont understand the SC 2 community. On the one side it can be the best community one can wish for. Supporting struggling athletes (Hyun) or creating amazing entertainment (Carbot, an many others). On the other side every small problem is blown up into the apocalypse for SC2. Yeah terrans performed poorly, but instead of waiting some months till the pros figured out how to win again vs P, everyone screams : Protoss IMBA and D.Kim is an idiot etc. Every new map is horrible and every game that is special is prove for how bad the game is.
So i hope this awsome community listens to your wise words Jinro and calms da fuck down.
SC 2 is a great game. In my opinion it is the best e-sports game out there.
With best regards
Wingless
PS : The funny thing is other games have horrible games too. On TI 3 (Dota) there was an awful game between 2 Chinese Teams, that lastet for ever, both teams where to afraid to attack. It was super boring. But no one said the game was bad.
Really great read, being casual in WoL and a bit more hardcore now in hots I can't agree more. When I queue for a ladder game the only map im concerned with is Alterzime which is fine cause i just veto it
On February 16 2014 04:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote: as someone who watches the game in bursts every 6 months or so
I'd feel the exact same way about how good HotS is if I didn't regularly watch. If they fixed early game TvP and improved the Swarm Host attack mechanic I think the complaining would be cut by an order of magnitude.
I have been watching daily for the past month or so, as well as dling replays, so I shouldnt understate ho much ive watched in this time period.
On February 16 2014 04:55 Destructicon wrote: Well, I agree with you on a lot of things, despite a lot of bitching that goes around the forums the game has indeed improved a lot.
The map pool right up to this season was fantastic and the way Blizzard has handled new maps was a lot better. The MUs all became a lot more dynamic in HoTS and a lot more exciting for the most part. I can honestly say that for 2013 HoTS was a huge improvement to WoL.
But to say that the game still doesn't have some issues is kind of naive, sure the game hasn't yet reached the snooze fest that WoL became at the end but, at this rate its getting there. I think you aren't quite viewing it with the same scrutiny as the rest of the community here on TL, because you haven't watched as much SC2 as the rest of them. I for one saw nearly all premier tournaments last year and nearly all GSTL and Proleague games to boot. I've already seen hundreds of SH games and, after so many of them, I know for sure I don't want many more of them. And thus the current trend of seeing more SH games and also longer ones worries me greatly.
I agree that a lot of the doom and gloom posts are still stupid, I do hate the disrespect that a lot of top end players are receiving because of all of these recent trends, but I don't really think they should be ignored either. They are signs of a problem and that things should indeed change.
You posted that BW also had its spurs of bad periods and its own problems, but maps improved, strategies changed and that period ended. All this discontent is the community crying out for a change. The same way your body alerts you to a problem by producing pain, the same way the community and the players are trying to reach out and signal a problem.
There is always room for improvement. But, I'll explain my fear when it comes to SC2. Not that it won't reach the standard or "legacy" of BW (whatever that means) or be the greatest E-Sport of all time. Frankly, I could not give a single shit about any of that. But, that we complain so much and so consistently that we create problems where there are none while also creating new problems from solving old problems and end up chasing our tails in an ever decreasing circle. With all the whining that goes on, my concern is that we "as a community" will eventually get what we whine for. And it will not be a better game.
A decent amount of the games problems already comes from our (mine included) whining in pre beta. Macro mechanics for instance.
Still, as problematic as mules or warpgates can be I still am happy they are in there.
Great blog jinro, hopefully your optimism can be spread to the community, including myself again.
Though I can't help but wonder if you were an active Terran player right now...the atrocities in TvP my friend...the atrocities you have not yet experienced and hopefully will never experience lol. I think your view on the game would be quite different if you had to play mostly TvP in it's current state on ladder all day like some of us do :D
Regardless, LOTV will reinvigorate the game of course and there will be a lot of excitement for sure. Just have to hope blizzard and the design team will take feedback from the community about things like say...high ground advantage, etc. that everyone has posted about since the Wings of Liberty beta but never really came to fruition but are shown to be possible in mods like starbow.
I mean every game of TvZ was far from being just BL/Infestor even back when you quit playing SC2. But that was the popular circlejerk of that era and it stuck just like the swarmhost whine of this era sticks with us today.
You're still right of course about SC2 being in a much better state than ever. But circlejerks are just how communities tend to work, and I think it's mostly part of a broader frustration that has to do with other aspects that are more complex than can be put into words.
By the way, I am not in that crowd that wants SC2 to be a BW clone, I accept and respect Blizzard's decision to move in their own direction. The one thing I'd like to see more is just taking good design elements from BW to be used in SC2, like units having interesting strengths and weaknesses, great potential to be more cost efficient the more and the better you micro, proper space control etc.
The SH is a interesting take on space control, it needs some tweaks and it could be better. The energy idea is kind of interesting and we definetly could use more constructive criticism and brainstorming instead of all the "daed gaem" posts.
Anyway, thanks for the blog and also for taking the time to talk to us and further elaborate your feelings. Its actually refreshing to see an outside perspective on the scene and to remind us that we actually have made some progress.
On February 16 2014 05:54 LaLuSh wrote: I mean every game of TvZ was far from being just BL/Infestor even back when you quit playing SC2. But that was the popular circlejerk of that era and it stuck just like the swarmhost whine of this era sticks with us today.
You're still right of course about SC2 being in a much better state than ever. But circlejerks are just how communities tend to work, and I think it's mostly part of a broader frustration that has to do with other aspects that are more complex than can be put into words.
You are right of course, it was more used for effect.
On February 16 2014 05:54 LaLuSh wrote: I mean every game of TvZ was far from being just BL/Infestor even back when you quit playing SC2. But that was the popular circlejerk of that era and it stuck just like the swarmhost whine of this era sticks with us today.
You're still right of course about SC2 being in a much better state than ever. But circlejerks are just how communities tend to work, and I think it's mostly part of a broader frustration that has to do with other aspects that are more complex than can be put into words.
This, so very true. I feel like it's getting worse with sc2 though.
On February 16 2014 04:29 Torte de Lini wrote: StarCraft II just seems weaker in comparison to other titles and different approaches to eSports. There are a lot of inherent flaws naturally.
And what are these "inherent flaws"? Do you just believe that smaller viewer numbers == weaker game?
I had the same idea about SH losing life when spawning locusts, so zergs would need to be careful doing it. But I really would like SH to be cheaper, faster, could only spawn locust when in range of the enemy and locust costing money. (25 minerals)
On February 16 2014 06:02 ivancype wrote: really enjoyed the read!
I had the same idea about SH losing life when spawning locusts, so zergs would need to be careful doing it. But I really would like SH to be cheaper, faster, could only spawn locust when in range of the enemy and locust costing money. (25 minerals)
btw, Which martial arts have you been practicing?
I train at a full MMA gym, so all the training is geared towards mma. There are 4 coaches, one with background in bjj, one in wrestling, one I think is all mma and the headcoach (and one of the more oldschool mma fighters in korea) originally started in kyokushin. 3 of the 4 coaches (except the wrestler) are active fighters.
Edit: oh I forgot the head coach who mostly coaches the fighters. I dont know his complete background but he's a 10th planet guy under eddie bravo among other things. Very knowledgeable overall from what I've seen (he usually only coaches the pros before fights etc but occasionally he will step in for one of the regular classes).
On February 16 2014 05:42 Teoita wrote: I feel like what's gotten so much worse isn't necessarily the game (as you say it's gotten better), but the community. When you think of it, a LOT people (or the so called vocal minority, or whatever...) have been complaing about something in sc2 extremely vehemently since, let's say, the range 5 queen patch. That is a lot of time to get "used" to complaining about basically everything, and it's gotten to a point where, almost always, it's always the solution. Lose in ladder? Cry about balance. Terran loses in GSL? Cry about balance. Boring games? Cry about balance. It's really frustrating
But yeah, amazing post Jinro, i wish more people just simply enjoyed watching the game
TLs staff/important people have been complaining since WoL alpha.
you cant blame negativity on the community when its been that way since day 1.
I took a break from SC2 because of the great amount of attention I put on Dota 2, but now I'm trying to balance the two games. SC2 is still entertaining to watch after all these years
On February 16 2014 06:12 NeThZOR wrote: I took a break from SC2 because of the great amount of attention I put on Dota 2, but now I'm trying to balance the two games. SC2 is still entertaining to watch after all these years
I'm in this exact same situation.
Basically I went from playing / watching SC2 100% to playing Dota 95% SC2 5%, and watching them about 50/50%. I still like to watch SC2, and when I play I still really enjoy it. Hope I can start playing them around the same amount now that I've more or less "learned" Dota.
SC2 will never be Broodwar, not because it's not as good a game (because it's honestly good enough that it doesn't matter), but because the esports scene is way different today than back then. But what it can be is a really great game, with really amazing tournaments, great personalities and a long life left.
Good night, and remember just because one work of art is beautiful doesn't mean another one can't be too!
This wisdom need to be internalized by the community, and it's blogs like these that bring optimism into our discourse. People have gotten into the habit of being negative. However, thoughtful positivity can be equally, if not more, contagious.
Thanks!
also- it's been really nice to see the IEM group numbers being 50k+ Especially because Jaedong was consistently playing some amazing games.
that was beautiful, and really made me rethink my position on sc2 not that i was complaining before, but i was certainly more pessimistic than i am now that ive read this blog thanks for opening my eyes lol
p.s. now that youre ripped you have to post pics of your muscles
I started watching and playing sc2 from the beta and followed most tournaments in WoL. Now I mostly switched to Dota 2 but I still watch some HotS tournaments and keep up with the results (Thanks to TL and Liquipedia) and I agree that even though HotS is not perfect, it is quite enjoyable to watch and in most cases, better than WoL.
Even though I'm just a lazy student, I'd be really interested in reading a blog or two written by you about your MMA...adventures and experiences. Maybe some day :D
Jinro, to me you'll always be Frozen Arbiter the SC2 mod, keeping people from panicking about everything during pre-beta. Glad to see you've kept the same cool head.
I absolutely agree, by the way. It feels like SC2's community is always caught in one negative frenzy after another. It seems like SC2 fans have a perpetual inferiority complex about their game-- probably born of the constant, insecure, and undetailed comparisons to BW. It's about time, I think, that people got over that.
sc2 is still doing good but the moba twitch numbers are exploding so ppl compare sc2 viewership to LoL vship and the difference is pretty huge so they think sc2 = ded game, its like volleyball/golf/formular 1 is a dead sport cauz soccer is doing way better in viewership ~
Well summed up, it's good that a person with your status says something like this Tournaments are fun to watch but reading LR threads can be painful at times.
Reminiscing that it was all great in BW is pretty dumb, Luna was an epitome of a map reflecting stale game state and at one period it was played so much
Great blog Jinro, I enjoyed reading it and your new perspective of things. Maybe in 10 years LotV will be played still and as a competetive level as BW was in so many years later, but still on a different level.
I would like to say I have been a fan of you since I followed you in the GSL and at the time played Terran myself. I now play random.
Not really all that relevant to the blog, but Honk Kong has a really big issue with surrounding area chinese coming in and litereally shitting on the streets in public. I was talking with a guy from HK about it.
Anyway, good luck with the MMA. I hope you don't get the califlauwer ears.
Although I'm on the back benches of the community I've always tried to be a positive voice in StarCraft. Cheering people on and giving zero f*cks about the negative Nancies. (Be they from BW or SC2).
(I told myself I would never use this, but just for once). つ _ ༽つ The Power of Positve Thinking ༼ つ _ ༽つ
Pretty great blog, nice to have someone put things in perspective once in a while. Seems with everything it's so easy to start the hate train that once you do everything gets pushed aside. There was an interview done with MC that was translated and put on Reddit and he really basically agrees with you but puts more emphasis on map design really changing the way the game is played, and like you said now that is becoming a thing for sc2... its pretty great!
Actually in the last few months I feel like HotS has gotten alot more interesting thanks to the use of SH's watching games with players trying to puzzle out how to make the most of them, or abuse them is super interesting.
I might be the only one but actually one of my favorite (I think it was WoL) games was a ZvZ from a GSL were both players went BL and in the middle of the map there was this massive BL vs BL war going on and at the same time as making sure that they both had = numbers of BL they were both using other units to snipe bases etc... make one game seem like a war with multiple fronts, was pretty fun really even if Tasteless and Artosis hated on it at the time....
It's really nice to hear that you are happy and seem to have settled in nicely And of course what you say about the game could not have been said better, thank you!
On February 16 2014 04:34 Liquid`Jinro wrote: It's also in a lot of the live report threads here too tho, not just reddit (I actually dont read reddit at all, always preferred individual community sites ie TL, Liquidpoker or Twoplustwo for poker, sherdog or bloodyelbow for MMA etc), which is too bad. Really wish a game like Reality vs SoulKey could be appreciated (it is still a pretty rare occurence to have a game go THAT long) instead of instantly going to talks of bullshit and imba.
who cares about sc2, please blog more about MMA here.
HoTs has definitely improved for the player. However as a viewer it still has a certain level of work. I still don't have enough on the edge moments like I got watching brood war or mind blowing moments were I see something only a special type of pro could pull off like double stacked must micro. I don't compare BW and SC2 based on what's better to play here but solely my viewer experience. I still stick to the sc2 and show support. If lotv takes it just a step further SC2 will be able to hold its name highly.
I don't think people say that the game is dying because the game is turning into swarm host and mech turtlefest, people say it's "dying" because LoL is more popular and that many of their favorite progamers retired. I mean look at this http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Retirement. This was when people started said that the game was "dying" I think the game is pretty well made besides a few things like the mothership core but I have to agree. The production in all of these tournaments are fantastic these days.
You know sometimes it takes someone who is removed from the trenches, yet has been there before, to offer up insight to what is going on currently that others just can't see.
You've got some big hands and a chin like Big Foot Silva. Would say you would make it big in MMA! Bad jokes aside. you always seemed like a laidback dude and i hope you reach your goals in whatever dreams you want to pursue!
I love that youve brought up the fact that even Brood War was not always perfect - it did have what, like, ~10 years to mature into the lovelyness that we remember today.
Thank you Jinro for this blog. You make some great points, and I enjoyed the sheer positivity of it. Much love and have fun in your future endeavours :D Don't be a stranger, and write back to TL every so often, ok? ;D
On February 16 2014 04:30 hellokittySC2 wrote: i agree with you almost 100% on this, however, you're focusing very much on Europe while America is probably where most of the "balance/dead game" whiners are located.
Though that's not really the point. Most people just hops on a bandwagon train and circle jerk each other off as 99% of them who writes these reddit and tl posts aren't even past master level of game play. They are once again, very influential once Banded together rather than a single entity.
This is what you should focus on rather than reading reddit threads of kids who haven't past their puberty trying to drop some BIG knowledge bombs on how the game works when they never play it in the first place.
Yes, because everyone below Masters are just not relevant (There are people that can play for years and will never reach this level)..... This is probably one of the biggest problems with the game being able to grow. It shouldn't be more important to only cater to the "pros" nor should it cater to only the causal players but there should be some sort of middle ground.
If casual players can't relate to the pro players or the game because it's to difficult to play, they sure in the hell aren't going to watch it..
Good read, I agree entirely. I was going to give this a 5 but then you called your blog long and rambly when it is well structured, interesting, realistic and people can obviously just, you know, NOT READ IT if they find it too rambly for their liking, so for catering to those sorts, you lose a star from me. XD Mwuhaahaa...such power.
If casual players can't relate to the pro players or the game because it's to difficult to play, they sure in the hell aren't going to watch it..
I don't think that is it. I mean what, do we all play NFL/NBA rules when we're playing football and basketball in the yard? We're all throwing like Tom Brady and dunking like LeBron? Nonsense!
What we see in SC2 is just that (unfortunately) common internet mentality spread across to the game whereas traditional sports has just plain old fans; many of which have never played the particular sport, nor know all of the specific technicalities, but love it just the same. (See NFL women commercial, etc)
Just too many whiny kids on the internet, and this is eSports, so it is dominated by internet "fans". Over time, it will evolve. Especially since over time the internet may become the dominant medium of all entertainment, vice television. "Over time."
EDIT:
So to answer the question proposed: no, our sub-par level of play doesn't matter relative to the pro eSports scene. You can enjoy toying with the game, but it shall never be designed predicated on that level. Just like the NFL won't dumb down the hundreds of formation rules and time limits so it is easier for us to play in the back yard.
While it is true, the core business model is different, requiring them to sell copies of the game .... it isn't subscription based. It is far more important they give the casual fan a fun initial experience and maintain the sustained experience, ie: the pro experience that has sponsors and advertising, acceptably packaged for marketability. That is the long game.
On February 16 2014 07:53 FuRong wrote: Have you watched Starbow at all? Any thoughts?
Yeah I think its a great great mod and initially after starting to watch sc2 again and reading all the complaints I thought it represented the best hope for a watchable sc2. After having watched more of sc2 I think the game is in a pretty decent spot, and while starbow taking over would be fine by me, the base game is good enough.
I like how the economy feels as well as reavers tho.
On February 16 2014 11:50 Forester wrote: Jinro, do you mind if I ask how you support yourself while doing MMA? Is it solely through your poker winnings or are you working as well?
Poker is my job. Ive never had a regular job in my life, played poker and sc2 for a living since I was 17.
On February 16 2014 12:25 crbox wrote: I hope you get someone to record that first fight and put on youtube, I'd certainly watch that.
I definitely will, and I'll put it out there unless it's particularly embarrassing :D (Like, we're talking super high level embarrassing not just losing)
Really nice blog! I've always hated the hate (irony?) that the community seems to be perpetuating in droves as of late. I started playing around when Heart of the Swarm came out and I think this is the greatest game ever made. I obviously don't have frame of reference from the Brood War days, but when I look back at what the maps and the metagames of Wings of Liberty were, I think that what we have is very damn good. The negativity around everything never made sense to me and it's saddening to see that people aren't enjoying the great game that we have. Thanks Jinro for this very nice writeup!
On February 16 2014 11:50 Forester wrote: Jinro, do you mind if I ask how you support yourself while doing MMA? Is it solely through your poker winnings or are you working as well?
Poker is my job. Ive never had a regular job in my life, played poker and sc2 for a living since I was 17.
Is it easier to make money in Poker than SC2? Any pros/cons to both professions ?
I 100% agree, but I still think there's a lot of room for improvement. Maybe another way of looking at (at least the constructive) complaints is that they indicate how much people care about SC2 and want it to be better.
On February 16 2014 08:27 BisuDagger wrote: HoTs has definitely improved for the player. However as a viewer it still has a certain level of work. I still don't have enough on the edge moments like I got watching brood war or mind blowing moments were I see something only a special type of pro could pull off like double stacked must micro. I don't compare BW and SC2 based on what's better to play here but solely my viewer experience. I still stick to the sc2 and show support. If lotv takes it just a step further SC2 will be able to hold its name highly.
Wow! Dint expect to read something good about sc2. I love this game. I sadly never played broodwar multiplayer before sc2. I get frustrated trying to get better but other than that I freaking love this game. LotV and maybe 3-4 patches later I think we will have a much better outlook on balance. Balance right now is almost good for everyone except GMs, I think. We wont ever have number like some other games because they are different types of games and perhaps easier to grasp in fundamentals and mechanics. But I really hope I can keep playing sc2 for a while and perhaps sc3 when it comes out! Cheers.
On February 16 2014 11:50 Forester wrote: Jinro, do you mind if I ask how you support yourself while doing MMA? Is it solely through your poker winnings or are you working as well?
Poker is my job. Ive never had a regular job in my life, played poker and sc2 for a living since I was 17.
I knew that's how you have been supporting yourself up till now, I was just wondering if you're able to make enough to live off of solely through poker while also devoting 3+ hours a day to intensive physical training. That's really cool and mad props man.
P.S. Been a longtime fan, the day you quit SC2 was a sad day for me.
On February 16 2014 11:50 Forester wrote: Jinro, do you mind if I ask how you support yourself while doing MMA? Is it solely through your poker winnings or are you working as well?
Poker is my job. Ive never had a regular job in my life, played poker and sc2 for a living since I was 17.
Is it easier to make money in Poker than SC2? Any pros/cons to both professions ?
Hm, poker requires more effort/study to actually get good at (like, you could just play SC2 and watch some and eventually get quite good, but nowadays you need to actually actively study the game and the theory behind to have a shot in poker), but getting to a point where you can make a normal salary+, there's definitely more people doing that in poker than in progaming overall.
Different would, for me, be that the stress in SC was always centered around some very high highs and very low lows. Like when you prepare for a month for a tournament or qualifier then bomb out in round 1 you just want to kill yourself, whereas with poker it's more of a series of mild disappointments and mild exhilaration, with some deep valleys and soaring heights interspersed every here and there.
The poker community and SC community are both pretty similar, they both used to be overwhelmingly positive when the respective games were in the ascendant (poker experienced a big trauma in 2011 following its ban in the US, referred to as black friday), but can be a bit negative nowadays as the game basically went from a legal money press to a cutthroat competition between good players. They still both have a lot of really cool people sharing ideas and whatnot tho.
On February 16 2014 11:50 Forester wrote: Jinro, do you mind if I ask how you support yourself while doing MMA? Is it solely through your poker winnings or are you working as well?
Poker is my job. Ive never had a regular job in my life, played poker and sc2 for a living since I was 17.
I knew that's how you have been supporting yourself up till now, I was just wondering if you're able to make enough to live off of solely through poker while also devoting 3+ hours a day to intensive physical training. That's really cool and mad props man.
P.S. Been a longtime fan, the day you quit SC2 was a sad day for me.
So far it's working out I could make more money playing only poker, but I think I would end up in a similar spot to where I was when I quit SC2: burnt out and unhappy. So, for now I think this is a good balance.
I played about 600,000 hands of poker last year, which is enough that I dont feel lazy but far below what the hardcore grinders do (I also play less tables than most of them tho).
Have to agree a lot. I have pretty much moved on from constantly arguing and just enjoy the games. The sad thing is that some people can't appreciate how great a player played just because of a matchup imbalance
Thank youhttp://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/4-the_rock_clap_clap_gif.gif you, based Jinro! You may not be the context we deserve, but you are definitely the context we have.
I've played BW for about 10 years, and SC2 since release...until about a month or so ago. I find it interesting how I played BW for those 10 years just because I had so much fun but I really only played SC2 because of local tournaments where I could go and meet people, hangout with some buds etc. I never actually liked SC2 because I think the core mechanics are horrendous and ruin the game (chronoboost, mules, larva inject, warp gates, unit clumping, creep tumors, force fields, overlords poop creep) but I played it because of the local scene and I like to compete.
I've come to realize that improvements will be made to the game but the core values will never change. So why waste hours on end getting mad at a game when I can go play something else and have fun? Even watching pro matches lost most of it's fun..."2 good storms from the toss...and T is dead", "Z lost their entire army and are at 80 supply! Wait, now they're at 200 again".
The strategies just don't look as appealing as the BW ones. I loved seeing a big ol wall of dragoons with a wall of zealots smack into a Terran tank/mine position. Mines blowing up, goon blood everywhere and that nasty good reaver control! It's not easy moving 5+ control groups of units...everyone appreciated and understood that. Now we get a mosh pit of stuff slapping into another mosh pit of stuff. The light show SC2 puts on is nice but it loses it's excitement fairly quickly for myself. 1a, 1a, 1a. Need to build units? Hold down a button for a second or two.
Has the game improved since WoL? Most definitely has! Will it improve further? Sure hope so. I think the limiting factor is the core mechanics of the game. Blizzard has said in the past they will not change the core mechanics because they feel it defines each race which adds fun. Does it add fun? For casual gamers, yes. For competitive play, I think it ruins it. I think that's why everyone got so excited when Starbow came out. It feels like an updated version of BW. A few new fancy tricks, but still that same feel for the most part.
To sum this up, yes, the game has improved a lot and most will expect it to continue doing so. There will be a surge of viewers/players when the next expansion comes out but, in all honesty, I wouldn't hold my breath that SC2 will suddenly be the top watched game again. I think it had it's chance and Blizzard sat still for too long and made some bad choices overall. Blizzard could have made more money but missed out (imagine if Blizzard did what DOTA/LOL have done when SC2 originally came out).
...then again, I played SC2 since release so I guess they did something right!
On February 16 2014 04:25 Heyoka wrote: That's why all this is so frustrating to read the hate on TL/reddit. SC2 as a game has never been better yet all people want to do is whine.
At least some people get it.
One thing that bothers me is that the issue of balance whines should, in all honesty, be addressed by moderators like yourself. It should not be the duty of the average TL viewer to formulate complete, constructive criticism on SC2 because a lot of people are just casual players and no not have complete SC2 and BW knowledge. It is really the job of the MODERATORS to really guide (and in essence TEACH) the TL viewers on what is constructive and positive for the community.
I know MODs have done a lot on TL regarding the very issue of balance whines, but I still feel its not enough. It also doesn't help that some mods on TL are openly BW elitists and that Reddit r/starcraft and Blizzard SC2 forums do very little in terms of moderating. I still do appreciate the work that TL mods put in, and with this Jinro's post I hope the community can go forward under a more positive light.
that was a really good read. I'm pretty sure a match between you and mkp was the first professional game i ever saw, a crazy base race situation that came down to the wire, I was hooked. I come from poker and love MMA and I honestly have to say you seem like one of the coolest dudes around. Good luck with the fight game, and i hope you have the time to keep popping back here once in awhile cause this came as an awesome breath of fresh air. Jinro fighting!!! (for real)
Thank you Jinro for that post, I can't say how much that makes me happy to have that kind of a read on TL.
I think I've flirted in the past with the line between a normal fan and a "dead game/dead scene" kind of fan (how is it even a fan haha ?), and this post clearly shows that the second category shouldn't even exist. It won't make an impact on Twitch chats (who cares anyway, these souls are lost to us!), but I can totally expect this to have a positive effect on the mood here!
Jinro isn't the hero this community deserves, but he's the one it needs !
Can't agree more, as a casual starcraft 2 watcher(basically ill watch if it's a good game and I happen to be browsing TL right when it's on) I am thoroughly enjoying it.
Do miss amazing bio micro in tvz though, but to be fair I haven't seen many tvz's lately, too much P!
Thanks Sir Jinro for the awesome discussion.. You brought back many many cool moments back in WoL.. Especially your TvT and the Marine-splitting in TvZ sometimes was so good that you didn't even need tanks, but went for Hellions instead in order to lose to Burrowed Bane-mines, or win if there weren't any
Regarding the game itself though - I kinda agree with you, but also disagree.. Will try to be "as much honest" as possible, from my point of view ofc.
========================================
First of all I'm a bronzie - yeah - one of those (so sorry for being a bit BM at the opening)..
But I did play BW on iccup, and had like a D grade, which means at least I could macro for quite a while to know something myself.. I'm mainly bronzie now cause I have a job, and can't commit to the game, almost 30 yo, e.t.c.
Still - I think I'm a very good at observing games, and not just games, but people that try/participate in it as well..
I'll try to give some examples to WHY are we here at where we are regarding the game, and that the "reactions" you see aren't thoroughly unjustified at least:
1 - people rarely played WoL, except those who played it.. The game obviously had a lot of flaws, near the end the game got a lot better, the infestor got good nerfs e.t.c., but a lot more people were watching the game then they were playing it IMO.. WoL felt kinda too hard at the beginning stages of each matchup with harder to set up defenses at the beginning, or at least harder to do the scouting with
2 - the Introduction of HotS was a big BOOOM for everyone - it was like - Hey Terran, now you can go mech against Protoss, and it was for Protoss - hey Protoss, now you finally can afford to open Stargate and not risk to lose to counterattacks.. So yah - the very early stages of HotS brought (IMO at least, cause I know I was one of them) a lot of new players in the game.. Those who played BW but found WoL too weird for example (ok, my personal case was I didn't have money to buy the game) to get it and play it
3 - The game was - see it yourself - 3 times more watched then EVVVEEEEEEEEER.. Like - see the first 3 months of the ending of the BETA and start of the release
4 - By having a lot more players - ofc. - the game will have more critical mass (I mean more of those who give critiques) in the game
========================================
5 - Here's where the "real thing" in terms of argumentation is
a - HotS is the irony of greater fandom mass - so much more people started to play the game, figured out that it was figured out really fast, didn't see any alternatives, so they got "dissapointed" to say the least..
So yah - IMO - HotS by greater fandom base, but it's fandom got worse by "game standards" - like - the real irony of things is that now in HotS there are far more people playing that can't play.. But is that a bad thing ?? - certainly not I think..
Here's what happened for example:
b - Terrans had soooo much high hopes during the BETA, even though everyone knew that the unit which was scrapped in BETA - the Warhound, was utterly ridiculously strong.. IDK if you played the game back then, but the unit was like a mini-Thor, goliath-like IMBA thing that runs faster than Zerg units and shoots farther than half of the Protoss army.. Whatever - the point is - Blizzard realized their mistake so fast that they changed the unit with WM..
======================================== The lack of testing of the new units before release:
c - Here's the 2nd problem / irony of the game state IMO - the game got released in a state in which both the new units - WM and the SH were released without a single tweaking/testing.. The WM was far too anti-Zerg intended that I hated the guts of it playing as Zerg and did almost nothing when I was playing Protoss.. Same when playing with Terran.. Blizz NEVER tried to test the unit in different ways - decrease it's strength vs Zerg and increase it's strength vs Protoss.. Like - the only WM changes we've seen were +35 primary damage to shields - in order to one-shot a Zealot or Oracle for ex. and that's it.. Then later on the unit got a little bit weaker vs Zerg - maybe a bit too too much.. BUT - here's the point:
The WM problem:
1 - the unit as if it had to be a slow-shot-one-big-blob a minute unit.. It was never tested with less splash and faster recharge-rate, or it was never tested in any sort of way possible to make it more versatile as opposed to being an anti-Zerg specialist unit.. Many saw that flaw and got it thoroughly explained, but nothing was changed:
2 - The Protoss simply didn't care for the WM as a unit cause they can afford to sac. a group of Zealots in first before moving in.. The mine has a 40 sec CD and becomes nothing more than a dead supply after firing.. And the Warpgate can bring in new fresh units in 10 sec - which means there are like 20 more seconds that Protoss could "chill", regen, regroup, and still have enough time to erase the Terran army with mines not reactivated.. As for Zerg for example - one painful mine, and retreat, and then the mines get recharged and there will be even more mines and a thicker mine-field for the next time you go in to engage.. This last patch change is the "finallly" that issue at least is looked now.. Everyone is like wow, this is sooo cool, but - to those that told the issue the very first day this is indeed far late answer, or should I say beginning of an answer to say the least
The SH problem:
As for the SwarmHost - many have complained (ofc. the problem is that there weren't notable "famous or important" people in this group) that the SH as a unit is far too expensive.. Like - having a unit that costs same as Mutalisks on gas and compared to the Mutalisks, they also eat up ALL your minerals as well isn't a good idea TBH.. However - the unit is far too expensive and it requires the most ridiculous upgrade in the game.. Ridiculous I say cause without it SHs can't even "nearly" defend themselves.. And with it - they're unapproachable..
TBH I rarely researched the upgrade, but used the unit almost in every game even back from Beta I've played.. And yah - happened to know that the unit was "good at design in terms of how it attacks", but it really is a bad unit in terms of execution --> you really have to make like 15 of them for them to make an impact, therefore having to babysit them in order provide them space/time for them to get cost-effective..
======================================== The observation "criteria":
Let's be honest about one thing though - really doesn't require a professional to notice those 2 issues: again - the very same problem - the SH as a unit has never been tweaked in terms of how it would work.. It was never tested to be a Roach 2.0 unit (if you know what I mean), and now suddenly everyone says that the unit should be a Roach 2.0 like more "hit & run" unit.. But the very fault was that the unit was never tweaked how it could've been used in more versatile ways.. Like = 0 variations of the unit back in BETA - no change at all..
That's why we see the problems we face every day now.. The new units (probably talking about the 2 new units, not Tempest though) were "predefined" without even testing on ways how to "expand" their domain and making them more versatile..
I have been saying/asking for ages buff the WM against Protoss and nerf it vs Zerg.. Everyone who at least partially notices my posts know that I've been doing it for ages.. And pretty sure I wasn't the only one doing it.. Like I know that I'm not a good noticeable player, but just another more bronzie, but at least - if the post has a point, then has a point regardless of skill
Like - time has shown - even back from BW - that it is a relatively bad idea to make a unit thoroughly intended vs one of the other races.. like - irradiate for example.. True that there should've been specialist units per matchup back in BW, but also BW showed us that those things can break the matchup as well.. ZvT could be too painful cause of irradiate.. Like - am I the only person who's happy that Irradiate and/or Erasing didn't make it into SC2 ??
Also - think that some of the changes that the majority ask for - like the snipe nerf back in WoL for example - Blizz tends to wait too long, and then make an overreaction later on I think..
======================================== A bit bonus of my personal impression of Terran:
But yah - many more have played HotS than WoL I think, and they've personally felt it on their own backs for example - that you can't play a good TvP unless trully a bonjwa at bio splitting .. Like - all those "wanna try this game, looks so cooler than WoL" people were very rapidly disappointed (myself including) that TvP didn't have an alternative.. Like - not just cause in that regard, but in the regard that the new things were either far too strong in some situations, or useless in another
For example - Terran as a race has far too many specialized for special occasions unit, OR designed to "assist" marines.. Like the only few units that can operate by themselves without Marine "company" are the Ravens and BCs.. And maybe Ghosts and Thors, but everything else requires to be beside the Marine, ok Banshees, but their "domain" goes as far as your opponent doesn't have a single air unit.. So it's like - Terran as a race on a complete level - requires for you to be really good at using Marines.. If you're not - you won't make a single thing happen.. Protoss has alternatives, Zerg has alternatives, but Terran doesn't seem to have them.. Or if there are - then they're BOTH - too hard to get and also - they're broken (like mass Raven for example) .. Same with the SwarmHost - they're too expensive, but once you get them they're broken
So a lot were asking for an alternative, but it just doesn't happen.. Not even get tested to say the least
The last WM suggestion is just a single step towards how things could've been if during the Beta they were more experimented/tested with in order to give more versatility..
However - the irony again - pretty sure that there are a lot of ppl that played BW, didn't buy WoL (just like I did), got "seduced" by HotS and bought it, in order to just get disappointed cause of the 2 new units that were never tested how better and more versatile they could've been..
Like - the matchups got figured out pretty fast too.. some were good and dynamic - like Bio-Mine vs Mutalisk/Ling/Bling, but others were really bad - like SHost vs Protoss
Speaking of versatility - very simple example: Why does Tempest have to have such a massive boost of DPS vs Massive Air units ??
It has 30 + 50 - like that's 166% of dps increase vs one particular type of units.. That wasn't even tweaked - like - before - Tempests had 0 bonuses, and suddenly - BAM --> +50 vs those units.. Like - the game would be far more "stabilized" if it got like 30 + 30, like - just an example - but think it would result so we could see even BLs and BCs.. I mean they had the +30 vs Massive (both air and ground), but they were a 300/300/6 unit..
So yah - like - that's a very, a very very little, simple example of a change that might make things A LOT better.. And yet never experimented with.. ofc. as in every other change - there would be a downside that would make Tempests 6-shot a Colossus instead of 5-Shot them, but still - just - count the "good vs evil" of it - completely "opens" more versatility - BLs getting 4-shot istead of 3, BCs becomming 10-shot istead or 7, e.t.c - and by e.t.c. - I mean Mothership getting 14-shot instead of 10, lol
Still - the benefits are greater than the downsides - Like - that's a very simple example
========================================
Think people are now massively reacting to the "idea" of that there seems to be a bit lack of will to be testing and/or improving things.. And indeed there was, for quite a while I think..
Except the very lately, in which in a month we got like 3 "batches" of testing changes.. The 3 new units could've been far better and far more versatile in giving options without making the game stalemate or blocked, but just never did, like - not even tried it
I mean - ofc. at some point the game should get stabilized and not getting too much changed, but what we're seeing is the result of lack of "testing" and trying things even from back in Beta I think
On February 16 2014 04:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I'm not trying to say the game is perfect, especially as someone who isn't playing the game seriously anymore
On February 16 2014 04:55 Destructicon wrote: But to say that the game still doesn't have some issues is kind of naive,
There you go, Internet at its best. Even if he did read what you wrote it does not matter. People read what they want to read and ignore everything that is not working in their favour. Well it was not always like this and I lovely call this people generation L*L
Thank for your Blog Jinro and gl with your career. I ofc highly disagree on your view on poker. All the skill does not matter if the other has just luck and you not. And its kind of sad to see that gambling is a major income for you. I hope you can change it. And to MMA well
Variance is why poker is profitable, and as long as you exercise proper bankroll management your risk of ruin is negligible. You might lose a bunch of 90/10 spots but as much as those will suck, they wont break you.
Well sorry I can't really talk with you about Starcraft 2 because I lost all my interest and love for Blizzard and their games. I will just purchase the last SC2 DLC when its on sale 80% off or something along the line.
On February 16 2014 21:00 VArsovskiSC wrote: Baah, I guess I went a complete dick-head mode with my wall-of-text.. Hope I didn't get too much like that though
I guess it's true that indeed SC2 is better than it's ever been then.. Hopefully
Nah nothing wrong with it, but it is a very long post :D Don't agree with some of it, but definitely dont think it's 'full dick-head mode'.
Completely agree with you Jinro, I stopped watching WoL in mid 2012 as well but recently I tuned back into some tournament streams and it's honestly very cool to watch although I'm not even familiar with all the things they introduced with Hots.
Another question regarding poker: I expected you to play onlinepoker but since you said that you got pokerdowntime from the brused ribs, as well, I assume you're playing Live poker and taking all that money from the korena fellas?^^
On February 17 2014 01:30 AsnSensation wrote: Completely agree with you Jinro, I stopped watching WoL in mid 2012 as well but recently I tuned back into some tournament streams and it's honestly very cool to watch although I'm not even familiar with all the things they introduced with Hots.
Another question regarding poker: I expected you to play onlinepoker but since you said that you got pokerdowntime from the brused ribs, as well, I assume you're playing Live poker and taking all that money from the korena fellas?^^
Nah, online, I just dont like playing poker when I can't exercise (that's how I deal with stress) so I just studied instead. Plus I picked up a nasty cold a few days after.
On February 17 2014 01:31 rrwrwx wrote: That was a very nice, perspective altering post. Thanks for writing it Jinro.
P.S. I miss you in the scene. Maybe stream for fun now and again? Even HayprO streams HS now.
Maybe ~~ This IEM event making me want to play something fierce.
I'm so glad you posted this, Jinro. The game is being shat and we're having such amazing games, such amazing tournaments. I've just finished watching Jaedong vs Hero. I've never, EVER bitten my nails as hard as with that game. Hell, I might even go back laddering later. SC2 is such a wonderful game, it's sad that part of the community is shitting on it for whatever reason. Look at what's going on right now. Look at the insane games at IEM. Look at the 80k viewers on the stream.
Thank you for posting this, Jonathan... It redelivers a bit of faith in the scene and the game.
Man, and again Jaedong fans completely flip their shit when he loses. Maybe it's because he has so many fans and they can be more overbearing then others but exactly the same thing happened in the LR's for DH Summer and WCS America last year. The moment he's beaten the entire LR just descends into vile balance whine and even hate for the player who won (everyone saying the want Polt to destroy Hero, a little ironic considering what the same type of people were saying about Polt in the WCS America LR all those months ago). This is then exacerbated by the tagalongs just copying what everyone else is saying and the trolls baiting them into continuing their rants.
Completely ruins what was, up until that point, a great LR thread for what has been the best tournament I've seen in a very long time.
For the many people responding to this blog by restating issues with the game I really think you missed the point. I see this as a cry to appreciate all the greatness of what we have in starcraft. If all discourse on the state of the game was calm and balanced rather than spiraling into huge negative spirals this blog wouldn't be necessary. But due to the hysterical complaints going on at the moment it's important to take a step back and look at how far SC2 has come, how much more active the map is, how much more micro and variety of strategy and how AMAZING so many of the games are!
Great blog man! Really happy to see you still writing. The MMA stuff is awesome too. :D Make sure you update us when you have your first fight.
As for the "dead game" shit, I honestly feel like it was a bandwagon gone wrong. Initially it was a sarcastic response to the whole "League of Legends gets more viewers than SC2" whinge. It snowballed out of control so heavily that people seem to have actually given it some credibility. I saw people on the DotA2 subreddit last week talking about how SC2 is a dead game and how r/starcraft is a ghost town, besides the weekly pro retiring. This whole "inside joke" has gone too far and inherently slapped a negative label on the whole community. Pretty annoying!
But I agree with your blog entirely. The game is healthy, flourishing and more entertaining than ever. I really hope people can look past the LoL/SC2 comparison someday.
man this thread makes me wanna install SC2 and play it again.. I kicked the "addiction" last year when I started playing Dota, but after watching IEM it was pretty awesome, I definitely echo what FrozenArbiter said =] Dota is so fun when you actually have a good team, but the whole idea of relying on a team if hell for someone who came from a pro/semipro SC/WC3 background... Not able to exercise your complete prowess on your opponent when you have to be paired up with idiots in matchmaking.
I'm afraid when LotV comes out, I'll probably play again.. I just can't quit for good.
Man, I could not watch any of the final day of IEL Cologne. Time difference and work. I'll be catching up on the vods over the next couple of hours. The LR thread (which I caught from time to time from work) made it seem like it was an awesome day of SC2. It was frustrating being at work and not being able to watch IEM (come to that it was also frustrating being at work and not being able to watch the cricket either, as NZ made one of the great comebacks against India).
I know you've been watching IEM, Jinro. I hope you enjoyed the last day's play.
And, once again, tyvm for this thread. It could not have come at a better time for the TL community (and for me). Cheers.
On February 17 2014 14:30 aZealot wrote: Man, I could not watch any of the final day of IEL Cologne. Time difference and work. I'll be catching up on the vods over the next couple of hours. The LR thread (which I caught from time to time from work) made it seem like it was an awesome day of SC2. It was frustrating being at work and not being able to watch IEM (come to that it was also frustrating being at work and not being able to watch the cricket either, as NZ made one of the great comebacks against India).
I know you've been watching IEM, Jinro. I hope you enjoyed the last day's play.
And, once again, tyvm for this thread. It could not have come at a better time for the TL community (and for me). Cheers.
I am actually, physically, jealous of you for being able to watch all of those matches for the first time. You're in for a treat!
Amazing post, i took a break from playing sc2 and watching for 6 months and got back 2 weeks ago,watched iem and i can't believe the lvl of play especially from Polt all the drops 3,4 attacks at the same time when i thought he had lost he proved me wrong,the same goes for JD.
Hmm this has made me want to watch again. Watched so much starcraft 2 in the first 2 years (2010-2011), bought tickets etc. Then it slowly died off as many of my fav players (including you Jinro) left the scene, and LoL then later Dota 2 took precedent. I noticed GSL is getting streamed via twitch now as well, which means I could watch it on my iPad! guess its time for more Tastosis?
On February 17 2014 07:21 Greendotz wrote: Man, and again Jaedong fans completely flip their shit when he loses. Maybe it's because he has so many fans and they can be more overbearing then others but exactly the same thing happened in the LR's for DH Summer and WCS America last year. The moment he's beaten the entire LR just descends into vile balance whine and even hate for the player who won (everyone saying the want Polt to destroy Hero, a little ironic considering what the same type of people were saying about Polt in the WCS America LR all those months ago). This is then exacerbated by the tagalongs just copying what everyone else is saying and the trolls baiting them into continuing their rants.
Completely ruins what was, up until that point, a great LR thread for what has been the best tournament I've seen in a very long time.
I consider myself to be a huge Jaedong fan, and after having watched the replay of game 5, I simply have to say that HerO played better in that game. The warp prism / immortal micro was just insane. The game would have gone completely different if JD had managed to snipe that dreaded prism with something like 10 HP left. After JD's inefficient counterattack, HerO had caught up again. And of course, Yeonsu is just a nightmare for zerg to play against those builds. Not every Jaedong fan is a whiny bitch, I actually think that most people are pretty calm and can respect the skill of other players. It's just that those people don't post too much. They read all the balance whine, shrug and close the tab with the forum thread to enjoy the games.
I also had tons of fun watching the tournament yesterday and I have to agree with Jinro completely. SC2 may still have its flaws, but it has developed into an amazing game. If only bunkers would build five seconds faster...
This blog should be a mandatory read for everyone who balance whined the shit out of the IEM live report thread. Great work jinro. I wish you all the best for the future.
Jinro saving E Sports.....maybe you can MMA some of the nerds to stop hating ;o
Thanks for the nice read, could you do another about your life though. Not to be rude but i'd like to know how your doing in poker and more about your MMA journey xD
Thanks, I remember this picture :D (FA is me btw - my old old old ID, FrozenArbiter, for those that dont know)
What is this picture about? Is it about you being an apologist for imbalance and trying to act like PvZ isn't imba?
I have no idea what PvZ is like in present day Broodwar, but back around 2003-2006 (basically pre-bisu vs savior), protoss users used to cry like little babies about PvZ while being completely horrible at the matchup (I was protoss in SC1 btw).
Anyhow, I had many many many long arguments with people on TL about PvZ, and I was like almost alone in thinking it wasn't a broken matchup (some higher level players agreed with me tho). Anyway, a while before Bisu vs Savior finals I had received a replay pack of reps from Bisu's PGTour account (months old games but still), and based on how godly he looked in those games (and I basically based my PvZ on those reps), I liquibetted Bisu > Savior ----- which only like a handful of others did ^_^
Nice blog, but I would prefer playing and watching post BL-infestor WoL. MSC would be the main reason, but also I thought Marine/Tank was more interesting than bio/mine in TvZ.
On February 17 2014 07:21 Greendotz wrote: Man, and again Jaedong fans completely flip their shit when he loses. Maybe it's because he has so many fans and they can be more overbearing then others but exactly the same thing happened in the LR's for DH Summer and WCS America last year. The moment he's beaten the entire LR just descends into vile balance whine and even hate for the player who won (everyone saying the want Polt to destroy Hero, a little ironic considering what the same type of people were saying about Polt in the WCS America LR all those months ago). This is then exacerbated by the tagalongs just copying what everyone else is saying and the trolls baiting them into continuing their rants.
Completely ruins what was, up until that point, a great LR thread for what has been the best tournament I've seen in a very long time.
I consider myself to be a huge Jaedong fan, and after having watched the replay of game 5, I simply have to say that HerO played better in that game. The warp prism / immortal micro was just insane. The game would have gone completely different if JD had managed to snipe that dreaded prism with something like 10 HP left. After JD's inefficient counterattack, HerO had caught up again. And of course, Yeonsu is just a nightmare for zerg to play against those builds. Not every Jaedong fan is a whiny bitch, I actually think that most people are pretty calm and can respect the skill of other players. It's just that those people don't post too much. They read all the balance whine, shrug and close the tab with the forum thread to enjoy the games.
I also had tons of fun watching the tournament yesterday and I have to agree with Jinro completely. SC2 may still have its flaws, but it has developed into an amazing game. If only bunkers would build five seconds faster...
Indeed. Still, that said all the crying in a LR thread sometimes denotes involvement in the game and players. And it is JD, after all. Having watched the games last night (that series and that final game especially were awesome!), the crying could have been a lot worse. Or maybe, I've become a little anaesthetized to it all (haha!).
Anyway, JD could have vetoed Yeonsu (rather than Polar Night). He, literally, had no-one to blame but himself.
I do wish they could have focused on that 60 kill Immortal a little at the end. It's not the first time we've had these invincible Immortals in SC2 (mainly in PvZ). First time I saw one was on Metal in WOL, a 50+ kill Immortal holding off waves of Roaches at the natural. It was a HuK game, IIRC, and I don't remember who won; the Immortal survived on shields for the longest time before trundling off to counter attack (after the 3rd or 4th hold) and dying. Funny the things you remember about games.
On February 16 2014 04:20 HuK wrote: D.S. = DICK SUCKER?
everyone else would've gotten a warning or even a ban for this. based.
They are friends, they were on the same team and lived together.. it's not the same thing has a random user offending another random user..
BTW I agree with Jinro.. I played 3 times more HoTS then WoL!
The game is way more fun, i play zerg and there isn't a map i vetoed! I agree that some maps are worse then others, but all of them are good to play and i don't feel a instant loss or a need to all-in in any of them!
ZvZ is more then just muta wars or roaches! I really like to watch and play this game.. i play lots of games, normally i end a game and unistall it but SC2 stays and i usually end up playing it from time to time..
Jinro you are awesome, I'm a huge fan and like many on here, was quite sad when you decided to retire. Thank you for writing such a positive post. I'm pretty negative about the state of sc2 so reading your perspective was quite refreshing. Also, it is badass you have transitioned into MMA.
I have watched a bunch of recent GSL games and I still feel like it is really hard for players to make comebacks. Worse is that after that shift in balance where one player gets a big lead, the game goes on for another 5 to 10 minutes in a kind of a pointless way. 5-10 minutes into every game Tastosis are like "I don't know how he's going to come back from this." "Well it's gonna be really hard, but maybe he can slowly die like this." And they're basically never wrong lol. You just can't lose your main army in SC2, the exchanges don't usually even out, and a player with much better concentration and speed isn't going to come back from an unlucky strategy disadvantage or a bungled attack. In SC2 there are fewer engagements, fewer points of interest on the map, and fewer decisions to make, which causes all of them to be super critical. Victory in SC2 is never gradual. There is not problem with slow build ups or turtling in my opinion, there is a problem with there being not enough battles and turning points throughout the game.
I don't want to bother comparing it to Brood War. I am just saying these things about the game itself that makes it difficult for me to get into it or be excited about the matches. Of course you were a good Brood War player and a good SC2 player, and maybe SC2 is the best it has ever been but I'm not sure of it's merits as a spectator activity (in spite of it's popularity as one).
On February 18 2014 11:26 Dunmer wrote: Are you ever going to reach code S again and ban the guy that said you couldn't? ( something similar to this happened but maybe not exactly this).
It was code A, and it seems unlikely hehe. I was so close, losing 1-2 im minseok in qualifier finals in 3 close games. He made a come back in final match after a huuuuge burrow baneling play.
On February 18 2014 08:51 Chef wrote: I have watched a bunch of recent GSL games and I still feel like it is really hard for players to make comebacks. Worse is that after that shift in balance where one player gets a big lead, the game goes on for another 5 to 10 minutes in a kind of a pointless way. 5-10 minutes into every game Tastosis are like "I don't know how he's going to come back from this." "Well it's gonna be really hard, but maybe he can slowly die like this." And they're basically never wrong lol. You just can't lose your main army in SC2, the exchanges don't usually even out, and a player with much better concentration and speed isn't going to come back from an unlucky strategy disadvantage or a bungled attack. In SC2 there are fewer engagements, fewer points of interest on the map, and fewer decisions to make, which causes all of them to be super critical. Victory in SC2 is never gradual. There is not problem with slow build ups or turtling in my opinion, there is a problem with there being not enough battles and turning points throughout the game.
I don't want to bother comparing it to Brood War. I am just saying these things about the game itself that makes it difficult for me to get into it or be excited about the matches. Of course you were a good Brood War player and a good SC2 player, and maybe SC2 is the best it has ever been but I'm not sure of it's merits as a spectator activity (in spite of it's popularity as one).
IMO if you watch IEM cologne you will see an insane amount of back and forth games, including SEVERAL huge come backs. Very few snowbally game.s
I think Carmac (ESL Progaming director) said it well in the interview during the IEM Cologne downtime in the finals.
Carmac “You have a perfectly healthy car, you’re driving the autobahn…, and then you have a half million dollar racecar just whizzing past you, and another one, let’s say quarter million dollar racecar whizzing past you, and it seems to you like you’re driving slower, but you’re not. And I think that is what’s going on. The amount of attention that Dota 2 and League of Legends are getting are creating a perception that Starcraft II is doing worse. I don’t think it’s doing that worse, that much worse. I mean, we’ve got fantastic players, we’ve got a super exciting tournament, people on reddit, people on twitter, I mean, everyone’s talking about this event here. Games are super exciting, absolutely amazing, mind-blowing. Viewership is regularly very high, I mean, I wouldn’t have dreamed of having a peak concurrent viewership of over 40,000 for a Brazil tournament, while there’s another European tournament going on (Asus)! So, I have nothing to complain about as an organizer. Starcraft II isn’t going anywhere in Intel Extreme Masters because it’s a game that brings a lot of value to Intel Extreme Masters. The Quake Live, Counter-Strike communities, World of Warcraft community, they all know that I pull the trigger on it when I have to. And I can tell you right away; I’m not pulling the trigger on Starcraft II.”
SCII isn't dead or dying. Other games are just growing faster.
On February 16 2014 04:20 HuK wrote: D.S. = DICK SUCKER?
a pathetic joke?
Relax we're good friends ~_~
So, do you play BW any more? I know a lot of older SC2 names that came over from BW still do (e.g. TT1 and FreMan), and the scene is probably the biggest its been since OSL and PL went over to SC2. Now's a good time to be a foreign BW player.
How people could argue that the game was better than before, i will never understand.
Just think about it, Nestea vs sC semi final game, MMA vs DRG final. Those were from the greatest era and nothing has come up recently that can even be compared to those games. Theres just no style, no surprises and rivalry to speak off that excites you. Everyday, its just random korean wins or even worse, random korean with great defensive play(Boring)(Rain) wins.
I mean the stream numbers and games played does not lie. SEA server is pretty much dead and US server doesnt seem to be as active as before, at least not in the Masters+ bracket which i play in. So no, its a good blog, but your being way too optimistic.
On February 18 2014 19:57 Shortizz wrote: How people could argue that the game was better than before, i will never understand.
Just think about it, Nestea vs sC semi final game, MMA vs DRG final. Those were from the greatest era and nothing has come up recently that can even be compared to those games. Theres just no style, no surprises and rivalry to speak off that excites you. Everyday, its just random korean wins or even worse, random korean with great defensive play(Boring)(Rain) wins.
I mean the stream numbers and games played does not lie. SEA server is pretty much dead and US server doesnt seem to be as active as before, at least not in the Masters+ bracket which i play in. So no, its a good blog, but your being way too optimistic.
On February 18 2014 19:57 Shortizz wrote: How people could argue that the game was better than before, i will never understand.
Just think about it, Nestea vs sC semi final game, MMA vs DRG final. Those were from the greatest era and nothing has come up recently that can even be compared to those games. Theres just no style, no surprises and rivalry to speak off that excites you. Everyday, its just random korean wins or even worse, random korean with great defensive play(Boring)(Rain) wins.
I mean the stream numbers and games played does not lie. SEA server is pretty much dead and US server doesnt seem to be as active as before, at least not in the Masters+ bracket which i play in. So no, its a good blog, but your being way too optimistic.
You obviously didn't watch Polts games at IEM last weekend. Quite a bit better than Nestea vs Sc for sure. And for the record...Marine King and Parting at the team league finals and Marine King's multiple battles with DRG where better than either of the things you mentioned as well.
You are either trolling or not even watching and just making stuff up.
On February 16 2014 04:25 Heyoka wrote: That's why all this is so frustrating to read the hate on TL/reddit. SC2 as a game has never been better yet all people want to do is whine.
At least some people get it.
swing the bloody axe hammer and let there be blood! great to see it's working out for Jinro!
I have been saying this for a while now. SC2 is awesome. Anyone who watched ANY of IEM Cologne this weekend will know that. Finals was totally bonkers.
so refreshing to read something like this... I seriously can not stand so many whiners! its like if they play like they always do and dont win then the other race is OP... Learn to evolve your game people! that was the only real thing driving me away from SC2.... not the game but the people playing that game.
Jinro, I'm not disagreeing that SC2 is somewhat "better," but many people have been saying that SC2 has been a terrible esport (compared to SC:BW) since it first came out. The question is, is it now "good." In my opinion, no not really. I still prefer Brood War many times over.
Are there people that do like SC2 in its current form? Yes, absolutely. More power to them. They will get to enjoy it. But think of all the disgruntled voices you don't hear: namely, everyone that wanted to love SC2, didn't, and have now given up on it. I for one rarely post in SC2 threads anymore because I've mostly stopped following it.
My point is, I think the whining (because I admit it is whining) is still somewhat valid. Some people, like myself, really hope blizzard makes major changes to the game. It took me a while to realize they weren't/aren't going to, so I recently stopped posting (for the most part), but I think many of the whiners are well-intentioned people who still hold out hope.
I guess it is unfortunate for people that do like SC2 to have to deal with the constant whining (sorry guys), but people are entitled to their opinions, and I think it is very understandable for fans to want change in SC2.
Great read Jinro, thanks for this bit of optimism. As someone who follows MMA closely, plays/follows SC2, and has played poker for supplemental income for years, learning this stuff about you has made me a fan for life. I'll be rooting for you in your first fight, good luck!
I have a few questions if you care to answer (and completely understand if not):
What do you consider your fighting style (if you have one yet)? Stand and trade or look to get the fight to the floor?
What stakes do you play?
Again thanks for sharing all this stuff, and good luck in your endeavors!
I noticed in this read you mentioned that the only map you don't really care for is Habitation Station. I was wondering what your opinion on that map is and why it's the only one out of the pool that you prefer not to play on. Is it the golds? The close air distances? Just wondering! I neeeeed the feedback!!!!!
Never thought negativity could bring up something good. But I guess if people saw all this dead game stuff and then watched the recent IEM all their mouthes would hang open in amazement. Thank you for this point of view ^.^
Truth is that in any Sport or eSport for that matter, this will happen. Players want to win, not be flashy. Builds are more solid now, competition is stronger and you cannot afford to just do whatever to win. Starcraft was always like chess, and now it's even more so, build orders and execution will win games rather than 50 banelings rolling that will make people cheer. Watch football. Brazillian players would do amazing stuff, but everyone else is playing solid rather that amazing. Formula 1, UFC, you name it. Everything is exciting at first, mainly because it's full of mistakes and danger, which makes them exciting to watch. I remember UFC 1 through 50 and I see UFC now. Everyone is doing BJJ now.
On February 19 2014 07:07 DimAslan wrote: Truth is that in any Sport or eSport for that matter, this will happen. Players want to win, not be flashy. Builds are more solid now, competition is stronger and you cannot afford to just do whatever to win. Starcraft was always like chess, and now it's even more so, build orders and execution will win games rather than 50 banelings rolling that will make people cheer. Watch football. Brazillian players would do amazing stuff, but everyone else is playing solid rather that amazing. Formula 1, UFC, you name it. Everything is exciting at first, mainly because it's full of mistakes and danger, which makes them exciting to watch. I remember UFC 1 through 50 and I see UFC now. Everyone is doing BJJ now.
I have a suspicion that JD might have been showing off in one or two of his games, but I could be wrong
It's easy to remember the best parts of the past and feel the past is better. However, it's also easier to be excited to watch SC2 if you take long breaks.
People are negative because there's a void where a better game could be, and many don't want to settle for mobas or SC2 as it is.
On February 19 2014 04:20 SidianTheBard wrote: Hey Jinro,
I noticed in this read you mentioned that the only map you don't really care for is Habitation Station. I was wondering what your opinion on that map is and why it's the only one out of the pool that you prefer not to play on. Is it the golds? The close air distances? Just wondering! I neeeeed the feedback!!!!!
I just feel its slightly bland aesthetically, and the least modern map in the pool. Still not bad.
Feels a bit like echo isles from wc3, come to think of it.
On February 19 2014 04:03 TheJestOne wrote: Great read Jinro, thanks for this bit of optimism. As someone who follows MMA closely, plays/follows SC2, and has played poker for supplemental income for years, learning this stuff about you has made me a fan for life. I'll be rooting for you in your first fight, good luck!
I have a few questions if you care to answer (and completely understand if not):
What do you consider your fighting style (if you have one yet)? Stand and trade or look to get the fight to the floor?
What stakes do you play?
Again thanks for sharing all this stuff, and good luck in your endeavors!
I wouldnt say I have a style exactly... but individual component wise: im pretty good on the ground both off my back and on top, my striking is a bit lacking when it comes to stringing together combinations but ive got a decent jab and good reach.My double legs are pretty bad (just cant seem to get the timing right when sparring) and I generally prefer clinch takedowns or trips.
My by far strongest attribute is my cardio, I'm basically an energizer bunny.
I always thought that sc2 was kinda "rotten at its core", especially protoss. Recent iem has convinced me from the opposite though. A pvt where both players try to split their army in many small squads to create as many attention points at the same time as possible is really awesome and pvt was always a retarded all-in vs turtle into deathball vs deathball mu in my head.
I think the negativity is a result of people seeing bw through rose-colored glasses and dont think that blizzard will fulfill their expectations with Lotv, which is create a game similar to "dream"-bw with loads of small micro-battles, multi-pronged attacks etc. People arent expecting realistic changes of sc2, but a perfect game. I agree to people like Lalush that sc2 could be a lot better, but everybody is expecting wonders from a dead genre.
I am not sure that Lotv will produce the playable rts salvation that everybody is waiting for, but i think sc2 is on the right way to become pretty cool. Which is something i woudnt have said half a year ago.
Well, if SC2 got any worse after WoL it would actually be dead. I agree that the amount of complaining in general, for pretty much any game, is too much, but I don't think complaining is inherently a bad thing.
Consider this: would SC2 have, as a whole, improved so quickly (truthfully not quick, but w/e) if people didn't complain? People complain because they aren't satisfied. Sure, nowadays a lot of people are vocal about a lot of stupid shit on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean the original complaints didn't have any merit. Blizzard has underperformed in their development of SC2 the past few years and the community has understandably been vocal about that. Just because they're just seemingly starting to get it together doesn't mean much; they still have a ways to go.
Pretty sure if Blizzard actually took suggestions on how to improve the game/etc. to heart at the start then the game would be in a much much better place. I don't think the complaints themselves should be given any thought, but why people complain should.
On February 19 2014 17:24 Kishin2 wrote: Well, if SC2 got any worse after WoL it would actually be dead. I agree that the amount of complaining in general, for pretty much any game, is too much, but I don't think complaining is inherently a bad thing.
Consider this: would SC2 have, as a whole, improved so quickly (truthfully not quick, but w/e) if people didn't complain? People complain because they aren't satisfied. Sure, nowadays a lot of people are vocal about a lot of stupid shit on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean the original complaints didn't have any merit. Blizzard has underperformed in their development of SC2 the past few years and the community has understandably been vocal about that. Just because they're just seemingly starting to get it together doesn't mean much; they still have a ways to go.
Pretty sure if Blizzard actually took suggestions on how to improve the game/etc. to heart at the start then the game would be in a much much better place. I don't think the complaints themselves should be given any thought, but why people complain should.
You do realize that it was suggestions on how to improve the game from the community that got much of what we got in the expansion?
They specifically stated they wanted something to help protoss scout because they could never tell what terran was doing. They specifically stated they wanted something to allow protoss to pressure without having to go all in because toss units were so slow compared to speedlings especially. They specifically stated they wanted something to help toss with the 1-1-1 attacks. They specifically asked for an early game harassment option for protoss.
There were so many calls for vultures and mines. There were so many calls to make mech more viable for Terran.
There were so many calls to end infestor broodlord.
So...Blizzard listened to the community.
I really think people are projecting onto blizzard because most of the stuff they post as fact is nothing remotely close to reality.
On February 19 2014 17:24 Kishin2 wrote: Well, if SC2 got any worse after WoL it would actually be dead. I agree that the amount of complaining in general, for pretty much any game, is too much, but I don't think complaining is inherently a bad thing.
Consider this: would SC2 have, as a whole, improved so quickly (truthfully not quick, but w/e) if people didn't complain? People complain because they aren't satisfied. Sure, nowadays a lot of people are vocal about a lot of stupid shit on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean the original complaints didn't have any merit. Blizzard has underperformed in their development of SC2 the past few years and the community has understandably been vocal about that. Just because they're just seemingly starting to get it together doesn't mean much; they still have a ways to go.
Pretty sure if Blizzard actually took suggestions on how to improve the game/etc. to heart at the start then the game would be in a much much better place. I don't think the complaints themselves should be given any thought, but why people complain should.
I think the point Jinro is making is that a casual visitor to TL might think that SC2 is a shit game and soon to be dead.
When actually it is neither shit nor dead.
In fact, my belief is that if "the community" or Blizzard don't fuck up it up, we may actually have a great and vibrant game on our hands with LOTV (at the moment, however, I do not think SC2 is a great game, merely [!] a very good one).
On February 19 2014 17:24 Kishin2 wrote: Well, if SC2 got any worse after WoL it would actually be dead. I agree that the amount of complaining in general, for pretty much any game, is too much, but I don't think complaining is inherently a bad thing.
Consider this: would SC2 have, as a whole, improved so quickly (truthfully not quick, but w/e) if people didn't complain? People complain because they aren't satisfied. Sure, nowadays a lot of people are vocal about a lot of stupid shit on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean the original complaints didn't have any merit. Blizzard has underperformed in their development of SC2 the past few years and the community has understandably been vocal about that. Just because they're just seemingly starting to get it together doesn't mean much; they still have a ways to go.
Pretty sure if Blizzard actually took suggestions on how to improve the game/etc. to heart at the start then the game would be in a much much better place. I don't think the complaints themselves should be given any thought, but why people complain should.
I think the point Jinro is making is that a casual visitor to TL might think that SC2 is a shit game and soon to be dead.
When actually it is neither shit nor dead.
In fact, my belief is that if "the community" or Blizzard don't fuck up it up, we may actually have a great and vibrant game on our hands with LOTV (at the moment, however, I do not think SC2 is a great game, merely [!] a very good one).
Or to your point...solid viewership numbers for IEM last weekend and then WCS Europe just days later and early in the day started out with 20k viewers...on a Tuesday...in the middle of the day. That is pretty good for round of 32 games early. Let's see what Code S has in 4 minutes...even though I suspect most of the hardcore fans watch VODs and not live because the time isn't exactly good for Europe or NA to watch it live. I'm curious as to how many viewers these dead game posters think that BW was drawing in a year compared to StarCraft 2 because there isn't even a comparison (internationally).
Looking at the old BW PvZ QQ threads, I don't feel *so* bad about the whiners these days. Even if the Protoss hate IS worse than Broodlord/Infestor ever was.
On February 19 2014 17:24 Kishin2 wrote: Well, if SC2 got any worse after WoL it would actually be dead. I agree that the amount of complaining in general, for pretty much any game, is too much, but I don't think complaining is inherently a bad thing.
Consider this: would SC2 have, as a whole, improved so quickly (truthfully not quick, but w/e) if people didn't complain? People complain because they aren't satisfied. Sure, nowadays a lot of people are vocal about a lot of stupid shit on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean the original complaints didn't have any merit. Blizzard has underperformed in their development of SC2 the past few years and the community has understandably been vocal about that. Just because they're just seemingly starting to get it together doesn't mean much; they still have a ways to go.
Pretty sure if Blizzard actually took suggestions on how to improve the game/etc. to heart at the start then the game would be in a much much better place. I don't think the complaints themselves should be given any thought, but why people complain should.
I think the point Jinro is making is that a casual visitor to TL might think that SC2 is a shit game and soon to be dead.
When actually it is neither shit nor dead.
In fact, my belief is that if "the community" or Blizzard don't fuck up it up, we may actually have a great and vibrant game on our hands with LOTV (at the moment, however, I do not think SC2 is a great game, merely [!] a very good one).
Or to your point...solid viewership numbers for IEM last weekend and then WCS Europe just days later and early in the day started out with 20k viewers...on a Tuesday...in the middle of the day. That is pretty good for round of 32 games early. Let's see what Code S has in 4 minutes...even though I suspect most of the hardcore fans watch VODs and not live because the time isn't exactly good for Europe or NA to watch it live. I'm curious as to how many viewers these dead game posters think that BW was drawing in a year compared to StarCraft 2 because there isn't even a comparison (internationally).
The comparison is completely invalid. The most obvious reason being that BW was the first game to really elevate eSports, so in that timeline it just doesn't make sense. The maybe less obvious reasons being that in the year 1999 2000 etc video hosting was really not great and something only super nerds bothered with (low quality 160p streams). Internationally it was enjoyed by most people via replays, when low file size was something important. Within Korea it was enjoyed on cable TV channels, and really what gave those game channels a breath of life. I don't say that SC2 needs to be on cable TV to be valid, because right now we live in the future where lots of people under 30 have never even paid for cable TV in their life and just watch everything online (but still that means only people seeking it out will find it).
Still I think even if SC2 is popular internationally, people who tune into GSL (the highest level of competition), in Korea where all the best players are from, and then see a studio with mostly empty seats of course has an impact on how well they think SC2 is doing. It's always pitiful to see the strongest players without an audience. It's a very peculiar thing how acceptable it is in this community to favour watching people who are white. In BW it was amateurs and that could be interesting, but now it's just pros who aren't as good and don't practice as hard.
I think the problem was that we were used to being number one in esports in terms of everything. Now we are number 3 on average (behind LoL and Dota2).
SC2 still gets high numbers for tournaments, but the age of personal streaming is over. I rarely see a pro-gamer streaming to more than 2000 viewers (it used to be a much higher number).
On February 20 2014 10:38 Crownlol wrote: Looking at the old BW PvZ QQ threads, I don't feel *so* bad about the whiners these days. Even if the Protoss hate IS worse than Broodlord/Infestor ever was.
Thing is that w/ Blizzard patching games left and right, you don't feel as impressive as a race is winning a whole lot where as BW was more akin to "Holy shit Bisu did it vs sAviOr against all odds!" and/or "Wow Flash finally solved Protoss' mas expansion into gateway strategy!". In SC2, it feels really unsatisfying knowing that a huge reason why a race is winning so much is BECAUSE of a recent patch thus rendering cheering for anyone to be rather pointless.
On February 20 2014 10:38 Crownlol wrote: Looking at the old BW PvZ QQ threads, I don't feel *so* bad about the whiners these days. Even if the Protoss hate IS worse than Broodlord/Infestor ever was.
Thing is that w/ Blizzard patching games left and right, you don't feel as impressive as a race is winning a whole lot where as BW was more akin to "Holy shit Bisu did it vs sAviOr against all odds!" and/or "Wow Flash finally solved Protoss' mas expansion into gateway strategy!". In SC2, it feels really unsatisfying knowing that a huge reason why a race is winning so much is BECAUSE of a recent patch thus rendering cheering for anyone to be rather pointless.
I don't know if I would go that far since I still cheer for Jaedong whenever I watch SCII lol but I think until Blizzard stops patching, some people will always have the feeling that it's due to the patching that a race is winning more or less regardless if it's true or not. Those Bisu vs Savior games, Savior was dismantled lol especially game 3 XD Wish I was on TL at that time because I can only imagine how many speechless people there were lol.
On February 20 2014 10:38 Crownlol wrote: Looking at the old BW PvZ QQ threads, I don't feel *so* bad about the whiners these days. Even if the Protoss hate IS worse than Broodlord/Infestor ever was.
Thing is that w/ Blizzard patching games left and right, you don't feel as impressive as a race is winning a whole lot where as BW was more akin to "Holy shit Bisu did it vs sAviOr against all odds!" and/or "Wow Flash finally solved Protoss' mas expansion into gateway strategy!". In SC2, it feels really unsatisfying knowing that a huge reason why a race is winning so much is BECAUSE of a recent patch thus rendering cheering for anyone to be rather pointless.
I don't know if I would go that far since I still cheer for Jaedong whenever I watch SCII lol but I think until Blizzard stops patching, some people will always have the feeling that it's due to the patching that a race is winning more or less regardless if it's true or not. Those Bisu vs Savior games, Savior was dismantled lol especially game 3 XD Wish I was on TL at that time because I can only imagine how many speechless people there were lol.
Wow this was really needed badly these days. It's been so negative around this game and the current state of play that I feel a lot of things aren't appreciated very much. The skill ceiling in HotS increased tremendously from WoL and it's apparent with how good players have gotten recently. Your perspective on things have really made me rethink certain things, because I, like most everyone, have gotten sucked into the negativity recently. Although I try to enjoy and appreciate things, I find myself jumping to complain about things I normally wouldn't have, but mainly just the SwarmHost >.< But your suggestions on how to improve them were great imo, and the stale-mate factor is probably the biggest thing that needs fixing and your suggestions for that seemed great too. But all-in-all I'm super excited for where the game has gotten to.
Even just reading through the comments in this thread from commenters there is a much more positive and constructive attitude with the posts, and boy is that rare these days. I actually wanted to keep reading all 13 pages of the comments lol.
Even TvP, we can find positive things from this. Terran is now forced to try/figure out new ways of playing. It's evolving the matchup. Instead of just straight up bio pushes/scv pulls we are seeing a large diversity in strategy imo. The games at IEM Cologne were amazing, and Polt played outstandingly along with HerO and other players, the skill on display was just mindblowing. But even 2 days ago NaNiwa vs Bunny in WCS EU, we are seeing Tanks used for defense, and things like this that we didn't really see very much at all. Blizzard has acknowledged a desire to help Terran's out, and I think the game will only get better, but hopefully doesn't kill off the Terran diversity we are seeing now.
Great read and to all the commenters <3 we should lead by example and bring the positivity back to TL sc2 !
On February 20 2014 10:38 Crownlol wrote: Looking at the old BW PvZ QQ threads, I don't feel *so* bad about the whiners these days. Even if the Protoss hate IS worse than Broodlord/Infestor ever was.
Thing is that w/ Blizzard patching games left and right, you don't feel as impressive as a race is winning a whole lot where as BW was more akin to "Holy shit Bisu did it vs sAviOr against all odds!" and/or "Wow Flash finally solved Protoss' mas expansion into gateway strategy!". In SC2, it feels really unsatisfying knowing that a huge reason why a race is winning so much is BECAUSE of a recent patch thus rendering cheering for anyone to be rather pointless.
I don't know if I would go that far since I still cheer for Jaedong whenever I watch SCII lol but I think until Blizzard stops patching, some people will always have the feeling that it's due to the patching that a race is winning more or less regardless if it's true or not. Those Bisu vs Savior games, Savior was dismantled lol especially game 3 XD Wish I was on TL at that time because I can only imagine how many speechless people there were lol.
An ideal system would be for Blizzard to let tournament organizer decide on the balance using the map editor.
Say that ESL wants this type of configuration of units stats and balance, they should just let them and players can decide whether or not to play in it. This makes players decide on the balance of the game. They can have each race relegating one specific spokesperson to argue about the balance/design of their perspective race. Not only this can help to create an organic environment but this can also showcase this so-called "personality" of the players that we might have seen before.
An entire segment w/ each race's spokesperson as a separate show that could potential generate a lot of viewership and create a lot of ad revenue. I feel like SC2's community could improve in that regard to host these type of shows where they bring in totally biased players together in order to compromise into one unanimous decision. Ofc in the beginning, there might be a lot of discussion to drive the design and balance aspect of the game but imagine one day getting on those shows and see that everyone on the show to have nothing more to propose and that the game itself have reached into a stage of nirvana. How great would that be
On February 20 2014 10:38 Crownlol wrote: Looking at the old BW PvZ QQ threads, I don't feel *so* bad about the whiners these days. Even if the Protoss hate IS worse than Broodlord/Infestor ever was.
Thing is that w/ Blizzard patching games left and right, you don't feel as impressive as a race is winning a whole lot where as BW was more akin to "Holy shit Bisu did it vs sAviOr against all odds!" and/or "Wow Flash finally solved Protoss' mas expansion into gateway strategy!". In SC2, it feels really unsatisfying knowing that a huge reason why a race is winning so much is BECAUSE of a recent patch thus rendering cheering for anyone to be rather pointless.
I don't know if I would go that far since I still cheer for Jaedong whenever I watch SCII lol but I think until Blizzard stops patching, some people will always have the feeling that it's due to the patching that a race is winning more or less regardless if it's true or not. Those Bisu vs Savior games, Savior was dismantled lol especially game 3 XD Wish I was on TL at that time because I can only imagine how many speechless people there were lol.
An ideal system would be for Blizzard to let tournament organizer decide on the balance using the map editor.
Say that ESL wants this type of configuration of units stats and balance, they should just let them and players can decide whether or not to play in it. This makes players decide on the balance of the game. They can have each race relegating one specific spokesperson to argue about the balance/design of their perspective race. Not only this can help to create an organic environment but this can also showcase this so-called "personality" of the players that we might have seen before.
An entire segment w/ each race's spokesperson as a separate show that could potential generate a lot of viewership and create a lot of ad revenue. I feel like SC2's community could improve in that regard to host these type of shows where they bring in totally biased players together in order to compromise into one unanimous decision. Ofc in the beginning, there might be a lot of discussion to drive the design and balance aspect of the game but imagine one day getting on those shows and see that everyone on the show to have nothing more to propose and that the game itself have reached into a stage of nirvana. How great would that be
hmm while I see your point, I always look towards BW in such a situation and in OSL/MSL and the GomTV tourney, the organizers never played with unit stats and such. I mean, even in WCIII, there was that map designer or something that changed unit stats and made night elves weaker which ended up destroying the WCIII scene so I don't think it would be a wise idea to have so many variations of the same game. I would rather Blizzard just patched when is considered most important and tried to make different styles possible so both bio, mech and biomech for terran for example.
It would be interesting to see different unit stats, balance etc... but it would also make it difficult for players to adjust to the change as well. Imagine GSL, IEM and Dreamhack all having different unit stats and balance. Would be a nightmare for players lol. I do think the separate show where a biased spokesperson from each race contributes would be interesting to watch. There are several SCII shows actually but I've never watched any of them so can't comment on how good they are at all.
So, this is all well and good... but with all due respect. If you don't play the game any more, you are not in a qualified position to make an assesment about the state of the game or the current balance. 15 Code S protoss..1 Code S zerg. 5-6 Terrans in Proleague... 3 or which are winning... PvT winrates nearing 60% for protoss, Protoss winrates above 55% composite. Illusory superiority is a term relating to a person who stops doing something, and reflectively believes they were better than they actually ever really were. Jinro you were a good player, but never a top tier terran. And no top tier terran right now will claim in any capacity the game is in a fair state of balance. Dota and League of Legends are growing in leaps and bounds, and SC2 has never been lower. Please explain to me how marginal increases in a game compared to massive increases in other esports realms constitutes as growth? In business we call this stagflation... if you aren't growing as fast as the rest...you're dying.
On February 19 2014 17:24 Kishin2 wrote: Well, if SC2 got any worse after WoL it would actually be dead. I agree that the amount of complaining in general, for pretty much any game, is too much, but I don't think complaining is inherently a bad thing.
Consider this: would SC2 have, as a whole, improved so quickly (truthfully not quick, but w/e) if people didn't complain? People complain because they aren't satisfied. Sure, nowadays a lot of people are vocal about a lot of stupid shit on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean the original complaints didn't have any merit. Blizzard has underperformed in their development of SC2 the past few years and the community has understandably been vocal about that. Just because they're just seemingly starting to get it together doesn't mean much; they still have a ways to go.
Pretty sure if Blizzard actually took suggestions on how to improve the game/etc. to heart at the start then the game would be in a much much better place. I don't think the complaints themselves should be given any thought, but why people complain should.
I think the point Jinro is making is that a casual visitor to TL might think that SC2 is a shit game and soon to be dead.
When actually it is neither shit nor dead.
In fact, my belief is that if "the community" or Blizzard don't fuck up it up, we may actually have a great and vibrant game on our hands with LOTV (at the moment, however, I do not think SC2 is a great game, merely [!] a very good one).
Or to your point...solid viewership numbers for IEM last weekend and then WCS Europe just days later and early in the day started out with 20k viewers...on a Tuesday...in the middle of the day. That is pretty good for round of 32 games early. Let's see what Code S has in 4 minutes...even though I suspect most of the hardcore fans watch VODs and not live because the time isn't exactly good for Europe or NA to watch it live. I'm curious as to how many viewers these dead game posters think that BW was drawing in a year compared to StarCraft 2 because there isn't even a comparison (internationally).
The comparison is completely invalid. The most obvious reason being that BW was the first game to really elevate eSports, so in that timeline it just doesn't make sense. The maybe less obvious reasons being that in the year 1999 2000 etc video hosting was really not great and something only super nerds bothered with (low quality 160p streams). Internationally it was enjoyed by most people via replays, when low file size was something important. Within Korea it was enjoyed on cable TV channels, and really what gave those game channels a breath of life. I don't say that SC2 needs to be on cable TV to be valid, because right now we live in the future where lots of people under 30 have never even paid for cable TV in their life and just watch everything online (but still that means only people seeking it out will find it).
[/spoiler]
People didn't enjoy Broodwar via replays, that's just silly. There weren't even replays until the vast majority of the Broodwar scene had left for other games. The only thing there even was at that point in time was a blizzard minimap recorder that they used to record games and were put up on bnet for you to watch. Then when the Korea scene came on it was VODs.
Not only was it vods, but watch one of my favorite Broodwar games of all time and tell me if it is even remotely close to as exciting as an average StarCraft 2 game
That's how you would watch StarCraft in 2001...3 years after the game came out. If you were one of the few people still interested. Almost all the bnet chat channels were dead by then and people actually thought X17 (a serious noob channel) was the place to go get good games by then.
There's a very good OSL final, yeah there is a crowd in Korea...in the US you would have gotten about 20 people or something.
On February 21 2014 06:55 TheElJefe wrote: So, this is all well and good... but with all due respect. If you don't play the game any more, you are not in a qualified position to make an assesment about the state of the game or the current balance. 15 Code S protoss..1 Code S zerg. 5-6 Terrans in Proleague... 3 or which are winning... PvT winrates nearing 60% for protoss, Protoss winrates above 55% composite. Illusory superiority is a term relating to a person who stops doing something, and reflectively believes they were better than they actually ever really were. Jinro you were a good player, but never a top tier terran. And no top tier terran right now will claim in any capacity the game is in a fair state of balance. Dota and League of Legends are growing in leaps and bounds, and SC2 has never been lower. Please explain to me how marginal increases in a game compared to massive increases in other esports realms constitutes as growth? In business we call this stagflation... if you aren't growing as fast as the rest...you're dying.
1) I do think I was overrated, but for a brief period of 5-6 months end of 2010 beginning of 2011 I was top tier. Secondly, my skill level (as long as it wasnt bronze) is irrelevant as I spoke entirely from the perspective of a viewer.
Not that I've entirely atrophied anyway, ive only played 15 games or so this season but im beating mid-high masters players on Kr (even a gm but he tried to cheese and failed so he doesnt count as a real win).
Also, during iem cologne polt seemed fairly content about tvp when interviewed.
2) I never made any comments about sc2 having more players or viewers now than back then, simply that it's an overall much better game. There were gsl tournaments with 3 protosses in them too, and yet viewership of sc at the time was through the roof.
3) broodwar has had osl tournaments with I believe as few as 1 protoss in them. This is not to say that pvt is the perfect matchup but rather that these stats do not mean the game is beyond saving.
Non of this is really relevant anyway, because what im saying is simple: sc2 today is a better game that requires more skill than it did or was when I played (despite the superior viewer numbers back then).
And anyone who couldnt tell the initial sc2 growth rate was a bubble and are now surprised growth has stagnated, is a bit naive. One of the bw team coaches back around 2003ish famously described the bw scene as akin to prowrestling: loyal following with some crossover appeal but niche overall.
Seems pretty accurate and is nothing to be ashamed of.
Also wtf, your numbers are way off... 15 code s protoss? And 1 zerg? Thats completely off for this season. 16 P 13 Z 3 T (should have been 4 T since Jjakji was qualified but he moved to europe)
That's not good, but its not as absurd as you made it out to be.
Jinro not a top tier player. Back to back GSL semifinals along with an MLG right before then. I don't think there were 3 better Terrans at the time. That's just silly...besides the threads were pretty epic. I'll never forget the Easter Island statues
On February 21 2014 06:55 TheElJefe wrote: So, this is all well and good... but with all due respect. If you don't play the game any more, you are not in a qualified position to make an assesment about the state of the game or the current balance. 15 Code S protoss..1 Code S zerg. 5-6 Terrans in Proleague... 3 or which are winning... PvT winrates nearing 60% for protoss, Protoss winrates above 55% composite. Illusory superiority is a term relating to a person who stops doing something, and reflectively believes they were better than they actually ever really were. Jinro you were a good player, but never a top tier terran. And no top tier terran right now will claim in any capacity the game is in a fair state of balance. Dota and League of Legends are growing in leaps and bounds, and SC2 has never been lower. Please explain to me how marginal increases in a game compared to massive increases in other esports realms constitutes as growth? In business we call this stagflation... if you aren't growing as fast as the rest...you're dying.
Did you create an account just to make a post filled with stupid?
On February 19 2014 17:24 Kishin2 wrote: Well, if SC2 got any worse after WoL it would actually be dead. I agree that the amount of complaining in general, for pretty much any game, is too much, but I don't think complaining is inherently a bad thing.
Consider this: would SC2 have, as a whole, improved so quickly (truthfully not quick, but w/e) if people didn't complain? People complain because they aren't satisfied. Sure, nowadays a lot of people are vocal about a lot of stupid shit on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean the original complaints didn't have any merit. Blizzard has underperformed in their development of SC2 the past few years and the community has understandably been vocal about that. Just because they're just seemingly starting to get it together doesn't mean much; they still have a ways to go.
Pretty sure if Blizzard actually took suggestions on how to improve the game/etc. to heart at the start then the game would be in a much much better place. I don't think the complaints themselves should be given any thought, but why people complain should.
I think the point Jinro is making is that a casual visitor to TL might think that SC2 is a shit game and soon to be dead.
When actually it is neither shit nor dead.
In fact, my belief is that if "the community" or Blizzard don't fuck up it up, we may actually have a great and vibrant game on our hands with LOTV (at the moment, however, I do not think SC2 is a great game, merely [!] a very good one).
Or to your point...solid viewership numbers for IEM last weekend and then WCS Europe just days later and early in the day started out with 20k viewers...on a Tuesday...in the middle of the day. That is pretty good for round of 32 games early. Let's see what Code S has in 4 minutes...even though I suspect most of the hardcore fans watch VODs and not live because the time isn't exactly good for Europe or NA to watch it live. I'm curious as to how many viewers these dead game posters think that BW was drawing in a year compared to StarCraft 2 because there isn't even a comparison (internationally).
The comparison is completely invalid. The most obvious reason being that BW was the first game to really elevate eSports, so in that timeline it just doesn't make sense. The maybe less obvious reasons being that in the year 1999 2000 etc video hosting was really not great and something only super nerds bothered with (low quality 160p streams). Internationally it was enjoyed by most people via replays, when low file size was something important. Within Korea it was enjoyed on cable TV channels, and really what gave those game channels a breath of life. I don't say that SC2 needs to be on cable TV to be valid, because right now we live in the future where lots of people under 30 have never even paid for cable TV in their life and just watch everything online (but still that means only people seeking it out will find it).
People didn't enjoy Broodwar via replays, that's just silly. There weren't even replays until the vast majority of the Broodwar scene had left for other games. The only thing there even was at that point in time was a blizzard minimap recorder that they used to record games and were put up on bnet for you to watch. Then when the Korea scene came on it was VODs.
Not only was it vods, but watch one of my favorite Broodwar games of all time and tell me if it is even remotely close to as exciting as an average StarCraft 2 game
That's how you would watch StarCraft in 2001...3 years after the game came out. If you were one of the few people still interested. Almost all the bnet chat channels were dead by then and people actually thought X17 (a serious noob channel) was the place to go get good games by then.
There's a very good OSL final, yeah there is a crowd in Korea...in the US you would have gotten about 20 people or something.
I did? Back during the time of WGTour when all replays were public because you had to upload one for every game, back when gosugamers had a very active replays section with a special GG icon for games you knew would be interesting, back in the time of RWAs (since bandwidth for audio was more doable than for video) etc etc. Replays were definitely the main source of StarCraft watching for a long time and part of how the foreign scene enjoyed some fame, since Korean pros did not give away their replays. And before that it was battle reports. Koreans could watch SC on TV, but most foreigners had to make do with replays for a long time. It took like 3 hours to download the few VODs that were available, and they were hilariously low res.
BNET channels were active until SC2's bnet2. Speaking as a person who played a lot of chatcraft
So basically you are just wrong, good job. We even had a program for FP replays to simulate what it would look like watching someone's screen because recording VODs on most PCs and expending the bandwidth to download them was not convenient or always possible. I really wonder if we have already reached a time when there are people too young to imagine a world without 5 mb/s dl speed and free public video hosting lol. Even Blizzard didn't pay for hosting videos for Mystery Map Invitational, and that was in 2005! They just had manifesto7 record mp3s and do a countdown ^^ Stage6, which was the first high quality public video host was 2006? YouTube's first iteration of crappy low quality videos limited to 10minutes each came out Feb 2005... Before this it was basically torrents (and for a very short time of a few months or a year someone had a privately funded site) that took hours or days to download. And yeah, there were technically streams of extremely low quality even back in 2001 etc but you are a joker if you don't think the convenience of replays was competitive with a 160p slideshow.
PS: Why would you link to a youtube vod via bing you weirdo.
On February 21 2014 06:55 TheElJefe wrote: So, this is all well and good... but with all due respect. If you don't play the game any more, you are not in a qualified position to make an assesment about the state of the game or the current balance. 15 Code S protoss..1 Code S zerg. 5-6 Terrans in Proleague... 3 or which are winning... PvT winrates nearing 60% for protoss, Protoss winrates above 55% composite. Illusory superiority is a term relating to a person who stops doing something, and reflectively believes they were better than they actually ever really were. Jinro you were a good player, but never a top tier terran. And no top tier terran right now will claim in any capacity the game is in a fair state of balance. Dota and League of Legends are growing in leaps and bounds, and SC2 has never been lower. Please explain to me how marginal increases in a game compared to massive increases in other esports realms constitutes as growth? In business we call this stagflation... if you aren't growing as fast as the rest...you're dying.
Other than what has been responded to, LOL @ bolded. What a convenient criteria for a legitimate opinion. Perhaps Jinro could beat you in his sleep, but you are more qualified to give an opinion since you 'play the game'.
On February 22 2014 01:58 Chef wrote: So basically you are just wrong, good job. We even had a program for FP replays to simulate what it would look like watching someone's screen because recording VODs on most PCs and expending the bandwidth to download them was not convenient or always possible. I really wonder if we have already reached a time when there are people too young to imagine a world without 5 mb/s dl speed and free public video hosting lol. Even Blizzard didn't pay for hosting videos for Mystery Map Invitational, and that was in 2005! They just had manifesto7 record mp3s and do a countdown ^^ Stage6, which was the first high quality public video host was 2006? YouTube's first iteration of crappy low quality videos limited to 10minutes each came out Feb 2005... Before this it was basically torrents (and for a very short time of a few months or a year someone had a privately funded site) that took hours or days to download. And yeah, there were technically streams of extremely low quality even back in 2001 etc but you are a joker if you don't think the convenience of replays was competitive with a 160p slideshow.
PS: Why would you link to a youtube vod via bing you weirdo.
that FP replay program sounds really interesting tbh. How good was it at stimulating someone's screen? hehe, I remember that. I would cheer and think it was amazing when my dial-up had speeds of 5 kb/s(avg 1-2 kb/s) rofl. It took forever to get a 5 mb file and then if someone called, try again! At least all those download accelerator and other similar programs helped at times In comparison, I see ~ 2 mb/s these days and just shrug it off. Hard to believe how fast things have changed since the old days. I miss geocities lol.
I think starcraft 2 is in a good spot. Balance issues aside...it is pretty fun to play. Watching it has been great because production has gone way up. I do really miss IPL stuff. WCS is fun to watch. My only complaint is that NA scene is kinda dead with IPL and MLG not really doing much. I don't think SC is dead. But I doubt we will ever see it grow in viewership like LoL and Dota has. I hope we can keep it going for a long time. I do think for myself I got bored of just watching Koreans that I don't care about always get super far in tournaments. I want to watch the players I like to see play.
On February 19 2014 17:24 Kishin2 wrote: Well, if SC2 got any worse after WoL it would actually be dead. I agree that the amount of complaining in general, for pretty much any game, is too much, but I don't think complaining is inherently a bad thing.
Consider this: would SC2 have, as a whole, improved so quickly (truthfully not quick, but w/e) if people didn't complain? People complain because they aren't satisfied. Sure, nowadays a lot of people are vocal about a lot of stupid shit on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean the original complaints didn't have any merit. Blizzard has underperformed in their development of SC2 the past few years and the community has understandably been vocal about that. Just because they're just seemingly starting to get it together doesn't mean much; they still have a ways to go.
Pretty sure if Blizzard actually took suggestions on how to improve the game/etc. to heart at the start then the game would be in a much much better place. I don't think the complaints themselves should be given any thought, but why people complain should.
I think the point Jinro is making is that a casual visitor to TL might think that SC2 is a shit game and soon to be dead.
When actually it is neither shit nor dead.
In fact, my belief is that if "the community" or Blizzard don't fuck up it up, we may actually have a great and vibrant game on our hands with LOTV (at the moment, however, I do not think SC2 is a great game, merely [!] a very good one).
Or to your point...solid viewership numbers for IEM last weekend and then WCS Europe just days later and early in the day started out with 20k viewers...on a Tuesday...in the middle of the day. That is pretty good for round of 32 games early. Let's see what Code S has in 4 minutes...even though I suspect most of the hardcore fans watch VODs and not live because the time isn't exactly good for Europe or NA to watch it live. I'm curious as to how many viewers these dead game posters think that BW was drawing in a year compared to StarCraft 2 because there isn't even a comparison (internationally).
The comparison is completely invalid. The most obvious reason being that BW was the first game to really elevate eSports, so in that timeline it just doesn't make sense. The maybe less obvious reasons being that in the year 1999 2000 etc video hosting was really not great and something only super nerds bothered with (low quality 160p streams). Internationally it was enjoyed by most people via replays, when low file size was something important. Within Korea it was enjoyed on cable TV channels, and really what gave those game channels a breath of life. I don't say that SC2 needs to be on cable TV to be valid, because right now we live in the future where lots of people under 30 have never even paid for cable TV in their life and just watch everything online (but still that means only people seeking it out will find it).
People didn't enjoy Broodwar via replays, that's just silly. There weren't even replays until the vast majority of the Broodwar scene had left for other games. The only thing there even was at that point in time was a blizzard minimap recorder that they used to record games and were put up on bnet for you to watch. Then when the Korea scene came on it was VODs.
Not only was it vods, but watch one of my favorite Broodwar games of all time and tell me if it is even remotely close to as exciting as an average StarCraft 2 game
That's how you would watch StarCraft in 2001...3 years after the game came out. If you were one of the few people still interested. Almost all the bnet chat channels were dead by then and people actually thought X17 (a serious noob channel) was the place to go get good games by then.
There's a very good OSL final, yeah there is a crowd in Korea...in the US you would have gotten about 20 people or something.
I did? Back during the time of WGTour when all replays were public because you had to upload one for every game, back when gosugamers had a very active replays section with a special GG icon for games you knew would be interesting, back in the time of RWAs (since bandwidth for audio was more doable than for video) etc etc. Replays were definitely the main source of StarCraft watching for a long time and part of how the foreign scene enjoyed some fame, since Korean pros did not give away their replays. And before that it was battle reports. Koreans could watch SC on TV, but most foreigners had to make do with replays for a long time. It took like 3 hours to download the few VODs that were available, and they were hilariously low res.
BNET channels were active until SC2's bnet2. Speaking as a person who played a lot of chatcraft
So basically you are just wrong, good job. We even had a program for FP replays to simulate what it would look like watching someone's screen because recording VODs on most PCs and expending the bandwidth to download them was not convenient or always possible. I really wonder if we have already reached a time when there are people too young to imagine a world without 5 mb/s dl speed and free public video hosting lol. Even Blizzard didn't pay for hosting videos for Mystery Map Invitational, and that was in 2005! They just had manifesto7 record mp3s and do a countdown ^^ Stage6, which was the first high quality public video host was 2006? YouTube's first iteration of crappy low quality videos limited to 10minutes each came out Feb 2005... Before this it was basically torrents (and for a very short time of a few months or a year someone had a privately funded site) that took hours or days to download. And yeah, there were technically streams of extremely low quality even back in 2001 etc but you are a joker if you don't think the convenience of replays was competitive with a 160p slideshow.
PS: Why would you link to a youtube vod via bing you weirdo.
Dude you missed the forest for the trees.../sigh
There were only battle reports when Broodwar was an actual thing outside of Korea. By the time there were replays it was completely and totally dead. Just because you were following it after replays came out (I was too) doesn't mean broodwar wasn't dead. Chat channels were ghost towns, people had moved on. If you were following Broodwar during the replay era then you have nothing to complain about towards starcraft 2 because it is way more popular (outside of Korea) than Broodwar was (outside of Korea) during the replay era. Broodwar honestly peaked in ladder season 4...season 5 saw a huge drop and by the time season 6 came around it was basically a dead game outside of Korea.
Haters will always hate, whiners will always whine! Lot's of trolls on forums etc, should not be taken serious at all, sc2 is a lovely game, not perfect (and it will never be) but awesome.
On February 22 2014 17:26 -Kaiser- wrote: Jinro, please take picture with shirt off. I don't believe you're in the best shape of your life until I see those gorilla pecs of yours.
From a few months ago
I dont actually have ghost white skin, just the light.
I think we need enough pictures to start a Jinro's Body thread!
Anyway, thanks for the blog post. I think all of the negativity from imagined problems and impatience do more harm to the scene than any of the actual problems do. More optimism and positivity from big names in the community like this are a great help.
Hots is only better unifomly than WoL because WoL had rts failure embedded into it. What would you say about an imaginary esports game if I told you 2/3rds of the matchups at the pro level are just basically this and this. Well sc2 has improved, but that doesn't mean its good.
On February 23 2014 04:56 Chronopolis wrote: Hots is only better unifomly than WoL because WoL had rts failure embedded into it. What would you say about an imaginary esports game if I told you 2/3rds of the matchups at the pro level are just basically this and this. Well sc2 has improved, but that doesn't mean its good.
On February 22 2014 17:26 -Kaiser- wrote: Jinro, please take picture with shirt off. I don't believe you're in the best shape of your life until I see those gorilla pecs of yours.
That lurker/spore/sunken defence. Oh boy, i lost so many pvz that way. Zerg goes 3base lurker contain, i go 8gate mass units and i break it with good micro.
Now my armee is twice his,maybe even third. I cant break him. After a while he comes with his crack/ultra+huge macro. I was quite bad at pvz in general, but i could break heavy lurker contain and stuff.
But my macro i kept it low but i went mass goons vs ling/ultra, which is not good. So iam curious how did protoss figure this out? Did they really figure it out? Without FFE, i dont think toss would ever win tbh so iam not sure it is figured out unless u have something to say.
It hasn't even been two weeks and /r/starcraft has already forgotten that they were in agreement with this post. Can we get one of these weekly or something?
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/f6TfZKwl.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/446_The%20Shattered%20Temple%201.1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7dTq9k4l.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/l4xSqk9l.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CEO4eAYl.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZdACUW3l.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/4-the_rock_clap_clap_gif.gif)
http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/4-the_rock_clap_clap_gif.gif you, based Jinro! You may not be the context we deserve, but you are definitely the context we have.
![[image loading]](http://imageshack.com/a/img59/249/49l3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/4984/balanceat5.jpg)
