• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 05:35
CEST 11:35
KST 18:35
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall9HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL54Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?13FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event16Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster16Weekly Cups (June 16-22): Clem strikes back1
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation PiG Sty Festival #5: Playoffs Preview + Groups Recap The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Statistics for vetoed/disliked maps
Tourneys
Korean Starcraft League Week 77 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Semi Finals & Finals $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady
Brood War
General
Player “Jedi” cheat on CSL BW General Discussion Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Unit and Spell Similarities
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 593 users

SC2 is the best it has ever been

Blogs > Liquid`Jinro
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 13 14 15 Next All
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-15 19:43:59
February 15 2014 19:16 GMT
#1
That should be an eye-catching enough title to get a few clicks, so with that out of the way let me pre-face this blog with a small update on what I've been up to recently.

Preface: 2013

I spent the first half of 2013 just playing poker, getting ready to move, and traveling a bit (Hong Kong with my girlfriend, great trip). Started feeling a crazy itch for something competitive when summer started and actually played a little bit of SC2 (my profile says I played about a 100 games with around 75% winrate) before I replaced it wtih... MMA! I've been training 5 days a week, 3-4 hours per day since around July along with cutting out 99% of all junk food and I'm in the best shape of my life basically.

[image loading]

Me with Korean pro fighter Bae Myung Ho


I'd like to have my first amateur fight this year. The rest of the year, I spent playing poker and - once again - traveling (Japan and Sweden, both of which were completely amazing trips but this isn't the blog for that).

Anyway, I didn't really follow SC2 all that much during this time, just didn't feel like I had the time or inclination... but then at the end of January I busted one of my ribs a bit during wrestling practice with a giant korean guy (I'm 80kg, he's 100kg and he did a hiptoss from clinch and landed on my side... ouch). Thankfully I didn't break the rib (just bruised, which still meant agony anytime I sneezed or coughed for the next 2-3 weeks), but coupled with a cold it did give me some down time from both Poker and MMA.... So I started watching SC2 again!

Dead game?

As I mentioned I found myself with a bit of free time, and I started reading TL again, noticing what tournaments were going on and what not... From my initial reading I was sort of expecting SC2 to be in a horrible place with "no hope for the future" (if you get the reference, you're pretty old school by SC2 standards), every game an all-in or a swarm host camping fest.

But I've got to say, after having now watched IEM Sao Paulo, ASUS Rog, plenty of GSL and Proleague matches as well as most of the games from the on-going IEM Cologne... what I have seen in these games and what I expected from the comments in threads beforehand, could not be further removed.

I can very honestly say that in terms of watchability, the game has never been even close to where it is at now. Let me give you a few examples of the state of the game when I left.

This was a ladder map
[image loading]


... this was half the PvZs:

[image loading]


... and this was the other half:

[image loading]

An alternative take


... every TvZ:

[image loading]


... and most PvPs:

[image loading]

A strategical mastermind

Yeah. WoL had some really good periods too (the era that produced Nestea vs SC was amazing), but not only would I say that maps now are better, but so are the players, and the actual base game!

Some of the things people really wanted were ways for terran and protoss to scout early game, protoss to have a harassing unit, and for there to be more fight over map control/positioning.
Well...

- The hots era reaper is amazing for scouting, and I think has made the game so much better compared to the mist of conflict present in WoL.
- Mothership core might be a bit too strong, but overall this has definitely made the game better... PvP is maybe not the perfect matchup, but compared to WoL? Is there anyone who wants to go back to that?
- The swarm host. You know what? I think this is a great unit. Yeah, it's not perfect right now but you know what I've been seeing that I basically never saw in the past? The map actually being more than a theater for two death balls to collide. It probably needs some changes, but it's really not the first time in the history of starcraft that something has seemed stale... which brings me to my next point of contention with the current discourse.

Oh and before I forget, as much as people love to hate on Reality vs SoulKey, any game that has dozens of pro-players tweeting at eachother arguing about what to nickname an especially heroic unit in the game... can't be that big of a disaster.



But in Broodwar...

... Nobody ever balance whined... there was no turtling.... everything was perfect...

Yeah. OK. Let me google that for you.

Look at the links from 2006 and earlier and watch the tears.

I can't find any good screenshots of this, but back around 2004~2006, most PvZs (especially vs european zergs, which is funny considering its analogous to the current situation) the zergs gameplan would be to get to 3 bases, spam lurker/spore/sunken and then depending on the map, take islands (and use the same defense there) while dropping ultra/ling, or just go straight 3 base hive ultra ling into more bases with the same defense.... It really did not look too different from SH turtle, and was infuriatingly hard to break.

How was it solved? Game evolved, maps got better, etc. I'm not saying SH is the exact same situation, but it's not such a horrible unit that it needs to be removed from the game --- if people had seen some of the games that occurred back during this period of PvZ today, they would have probably called for the BW designers heads.

Another thing that happened was when Protoss players started switching from trying to get carriers every game, into quick arbiter builds... Well, as you can imagine this was a big adjustment for the Terran. When you make the carrier switch, your army will necessarily be smaller (lots of resources and supply tied up into units that wont be ready for a long time since they have to build interceptors too), and as long as the terran is careful, the protoss can't take him head on.
Well, everything here changed with arbiters - not only did they make straight up engagements way better for the protoss with stasis and cloak (requiring more conservative use of scan as well), but with recall+ramp stasis, terrans suddenly found themselves with a protoss army in their main and their army halfway across the map...

Terrans did not like this, not at all. Especially on Luna, this was the initial response in strategy change: never attack. Build 30 turrets in your main + spider mines. Camp half the map until protoss mines out trying to fight for the last expansion.

If you've watched any recent BW match, you can tell this didn't last too long, but the fact that it did exist for a while, is something I think people are quick to forget (or just do not know).

So David Kim is actually a hidden progamer, crouching genius?

No idea, but I don't think Blizzard are as clueless as people make them out to be. HotS is a far better game than WoL, todays maps are so far beyond what was available just 2 years ago that it's not even funny. I've been laddering a bit lately and the only map I mind getting at all is Habitation Station, and it's not even a big deal. Compare this to 2011 or early 2012, laddering was honestly a pretty sad experience sometimes with how bad the maps were, and looking back I think this was at least a small factor in killing my motivation to play.

I'm not at all trying to say that the game is perfectly balanced, or that there isn't a lot of room for improvement still, I just don't get this extreme pessimism I sometimes see perpetuated in this forum. We have gone from "Chat channels? People want those?" to a region unlocked game with free to play arcade, from "Ladder maps and tournament maps should be different, tournament maps are too confusing for casual players"... to, well, pretty clearly todays map pool does not follow this creed.

In closing
So, as someone who watches the game in bursts every 6 months or so, I have to say the quality of games has approved tremendously, proleague seems stable, GSL is going strong and there has just been an announcement of a potential new korean tournament... Even WCS seems to have improved a lot compared to the first season. Suddenly there's a ton of Koreans living in Europe, and long term that's amazing for the quality of the European ladder. Polt and Violet (and bomber?) have ATHLETE VISAS in the US, that's fucking outrageously cool.

I just don't see why people are so pessimistic.

I'm excited as hell for LotV, and I actually think Blizzard has kept up their track record of making every expansion better than the previous game (Broodwar was a lot better than SC, TFT kicked the crap out of WC3 vanilla, and HotS is every bit as superior to WoL as the previous two games).

I'm not trying to say the game is perfect, especially as someone who isn't playing the game seriously anymore I feel like that would be a bit out of place, but I wish people would be a little more optimistic and try to remember what the game used to be like. It's like how when you practice a lot, you sometimes feel like you aren't improving at all, but if you were to show an outsider a game from day 1 of your training and then a game from day 30, he'd think you were waaaaay better.

SC2 will never be Broodwar, not because it's not as good a game (because it's honestly good enough that it doesn't matter), but because the esports scene is way different today than back then. But what it can be is a really great game, with really amazing tournaments, great personalities and a long life left.

- Jinro

Post Script
I've got some more things on my mind, some thoughts on competition and normal life and what not, but I'll save that for another blog as this is already quite long and rambly as is.

Alright, time to sleep. 4 am, IEM making me stay up the latest I've done ..... in like close to a year

Good night, and remember just because one work of art is beautiful doesn't mean another one can't be too!

D.S
+


****
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
HuK
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada1591 Posts
February 15 2014 19:20 GMT
#2
D.S. = DICK SUCKER?
ProgamerLive like a God or die like a Slave 11:11
beesinyoface
Profile Joined May 2012
2450 Posts
February 15 2014 19:22 GMT
#3
ha ha ur so hilarious huk XDDDDD
aaaaa
DreamOen
Profile Joined March 2010
Spain1400 Posts
February 15 2014 19:23 GMT
#4
Really good blog, talking from tthe experience.
Tester | MC | Crank | Flash | Jaedong | MVP
Grettin
Profile Joined April 2010
42381 Posts
February 15 2014 19:23 GMT
#5
Let us know when your first fight will happen!
"If I had force-fields in Brood War, I'd never lose." -Bisu
Fusilero
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United Kingdom50293 Posts
February 15 2014 19:23 GMT
#6
Increased Korean viewership and now a positive blog? ALIVE GAME, ALIVE GAME.
Glorious SEA doto
IAmHaunteR
Profile Joined May 2013
United States36 Posts
February 15 2014 19:23 GMT
#7
Good read!
"Where I walk, you will die"
elanobissen
Profile Joined February 2011
Denmark244 Posts
February 15 2014 19:24 GMT
#8
Nice to hear from you. Great thoughts. Maybe we have just become more demanding towards how blizzard approaches the games - which I don't think is a problem in itself.
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-15 19:24:44
February 15 2014 19:24 GMT
#9
On February 16 2014 04:20 HuK wrote:
D.S. = DICK SUCKER?



dont sweat?
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
February 15 2014 19:25 GMT
#10
That's why all this is so frustrating to read the hate on TL/reddit. SC2 as a game has never been better yet all people want to do is whine.

At least some people get it.
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
February 15 2014 19:26 GMT
#11
Completely agree.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Liquid`HayprO
Profile Joined March 2003
Iraq1230 Posts
February 15 2014 19:27 GMT
#12
i miss luna. also nice pics. keep them coming
Team LiquidOur friendship will be the stuff of legend.
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
February 15 2014 19:27 GMT
#13
On February 16 2014 04:24 turdburgler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2014 04:20 HuK wrote:
D.S. = DICK SUCKER?



dont sweat?

Phrase

dĕindĕ scrīptum

"in place of a signature", "the same" (referring to a signature written above on the page, typically following a P.S.)
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
February 15 2014 19:29 GMT
#14
StarCraft II just seems weaker in comparison to other titles and different approaches to eSports.
There are a lot of inherent flaws naturally.

Either way, just watch StarCraft if you like it.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
hellokittySC2
Profile Joined September 2009
United States395 Posts
February 15 2014 19:30 GMT
#15
i agree with you almost 100% on this, however, you're focusing very much on Europe while America is probably where most of the "balance/dead game" whiners are located.

Though that's not really the point. Most people just hops on a bandwagon train and circle jerk each other off as 99% of them who writes these reddit and tl posts aren't even past master level of game play. They are once again, very influential once Banded together rather than a single entity.

This is what you should focus on rather than reading reddit threads of kids who haven't past their puberty trying to drop some BIG knowledge bombs on how the game works when they never play it in the first place.

twitter.com/hellokittyhots facebook.com/hellokittysc2 hellokitty.278, http://twitch.tv/noobeater5 为中国人在星际上争气!
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
February 15 2014 19:34 GMT
#16
It's also in a lot of the live report threads here too tho, not just reddit (I actually dont read reddit at all, always preferred individual community sites ie TL, Liquidpoker or Twoplustwo for poker, sherdog or bloodyelbow for MMA etc), which is too bad. Really wish a game like Reality vs SoulKey could be appreciated (it is still a pretty rare occurence to have a game go THAT long) instead of instantly going to talks of bullshit and imba.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
MrFrenchy
Profile Joined December 2011
Canada37 Posts
February 15 2014 19:34 GMT
#17
Great blog Jinro!
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
February 15 2014 19:35 GMT
#18
On February 16 2014 04:34 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
It's also in a lot of the live report threads here too tho, not just reddit (I actually dont read reddit at all, always preferred individual community sites ie TL, Liquidpoker or Twoplustwo for poker, sherdog or bloodyelbow for MMA etc), which is too bad. Really wish a game like Reality vs SoulKey could be appreciated (it is still a pretty rare occurence to have a game go THAT long) instead of instantly going to talks of bullshit and imba.

Yeah, and I heard it was actually a pretty amazing game.
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
February 15 2014 19:36 GMT
#19
Good writeup. I agree. Compared to at release and end of WoL, HoTS has vastly changed the game. I'm not sure about the SH since I haven't played or watched in quite a bit but the difference since WoL is obviously there. I also never understood the whole negative mentality of the SCII community. If you love the game, then stop calling it dead and play and watch it. Simple as that really lol
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
danteafk
Profile Joined May 2011
307 Posts
February 15 2014 19:39 GMT
#20
good read.

On February 16 2014 04:20 HuK wrote:
D.S. = DICK SUCKER?


everyone else would've gotten a warning or even a ban for this. based.
1 2 3 4 5 13 14 15 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 25m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Reynor 559
Tasteless 38
StarCraft: Brood War
Larva 815
Stork 243
actioN 151
Yoon 96
sorry 50
Shinee 33
GoRush 31
BeSt 27
yabsab 13
Barracks 10
[ Show more ]
ivOry 6
NaDa 2
Dota 2
XcaliburYe588
XaKoH 585
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K1560
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor175
Other Games
Happy421
SortOf63
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 11 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo2552
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
25m
RSL Revival
25m
ByuN vs Cham
herO vs Reynor
WardiTV European League
2h 25m
FEL
6h 25m
RSL Revival
1d
Clem vs Classic
SHIN vs Cure
FEL
1d 2h
WardiTV European League
1d 2h
BSL: ProLeague
1d 8h
Dewalt vs Bonyth
Replay Cast
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV European League
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 2v2 Season 3
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.