On February 16 2014 04:25 Heyoka wrote: That's why all this is so frustrating to read the hate on TL/reddit. SC2 as a game has never been better yet all people want to do is whine.
At least some people get it.
I'm glad Jinro said it. Maybe it will help others slowly realise the same thing.
But you know what is missing in sc2?
Rivalries. Not enough real rivalries atm.
The day we get some real big rivalries, we will see the game push forward again.
On February 16 2014 05:22 Aesop wrote: I thoroughly enjoyed reading your blog. I have a lot of time myself to spend on watching SC2, and I feel that the game is a lot more "orderly" and cleaner than it used to be - closer to the vibe that BW gave off. In BW, every move of a player felt calculated and deliberate, with some kind of intention and established practice behind it. The current state of Hots and the level of play might not quite match that, but it's definitely more similar to me.
Exactly this! I love when a game reaches this state of refinement, the analysis you can do when casting etc also becomes much greater (and I think casting is another thing that has improved, at least ESLs casting is really solid).
On February 16 2014 04:55 Destructicon wrote: But to say that the game still doesn't have some issues is kind of naive, sure the game hasn't yet reached the snooze fest that WoL became at the end but, at this rate its getting there. I think you aren't quite viewing it with the same scrutiny as the rest of the community here on TL, because you haven't watched as much SC2 as the rest of them. I for one saw nearly all premier tournaments last year and nearly all GSTL and Proleague games to boot. I've already seen hundreds of SH games and, after so many of them, I know for sure I don't want many more of them.
What in particular about "swarmhost games" is it that bothers you so much, because the zvps involving swarmhosts are not at all like WoL. Even the super passive stephano / foreigner styles of swarmhost v p are more strategic and positional than bl infestor
Its boring, and I'll explain why. When controlled well, they are nearly never in a position where they can not be cost efficient. You can lose millions of locust over the duration of a game, doesn't matter as long as the SH survive. And since the SH are so cost efficient its hard to get invested into the action and its also incredibly frustrating to watch because you know the guy on the receiving end is being so cost inefficient and there is little he can do against it.
Tanks are a whole lot different, they have some major weaknesses, their range is high, but not as high as SH's potential range, they are still prone to being overrun, they are vulnerable to melee units that get in range, and they are very vunlerable from air attacks. SH fire from such a long range that they never truly feel vulnerable, they aren't vulnerable to melee, and despite the fact they are hard countered by air, you still require detection to kill them.
Edit: Forgot to add, SH not only do damage from range, they create their own meatshield, and for free, against terrans or toss, you could sometimes at least be somewhat cost efficient by destroying the meatshield and then forcing the tanks/ colossus back, otherwise they'd be overun and lost, that dynamic is not possible with SH, because they continually spawn their own protection.
Thus because SH are so safe in general it undermines all the positional and strategic potential they have. When you force a terran to unsiege and move his tanks in order to defend another part of the map, there is a huge moment of tension for the terran, because there is a real posibility for the tanks to be caught unsieged in transit and killed, that dynamic is nearly non existent with SH, because you put them somewhere behind, burrow them to release locust, then move them back to safety.
I agree with Jinro, the way the unit interacts with terrain is indeed interesting, but in its current form its way too efficient, and thus uninteresting. If it had sort of a max range, and a longer burrow time, such that there was a risk to them also being caught unburrowed and killed, then they would be a lot more interesting, and they would actually be truly strategic and positional. You can't have real strategy without real risk.
Edit: I don't want to get into design discussion in Jinro's blog, so I'll finish off by saying that, well despite the current situation we have now HoTS did indeed turn out great, and it improved upon WoL a lot. Its a shitty period we are going trough now with PvT being so one sided and ZvP's being so turtly and long, but like Jinro said, hopefully with the advent of this outcry, thing start changing for the better, new maps and new strategies that hopefully push the game in the right direction.
Jonathan, I'm so glad to hear that you're watching/playing and enjoying it so much. It sounds like I'm coming back to Korea again around the end of June. I'd love to grab a drink, if you're up for it.
On February 16 2014 05:22 Aesop wrote: I thoroughly enjoyed reading your blog. I have a lot of time myself to spend on watching SC2, and I feel that the game is a lot more "orderly" and cleaner than it used to be - closer to the vibe that BW gave off. In BW, every move of a player felt calculated and deliberate, with some kind of intention and established practice behind it. The current state of Hots and the level of play might not quite match that, but it's definitely more similar to me.
Exactly this! I love when a game reaches this state of refinement, the analysis you can do when casting etc also becomes much greater (and I think casting is another thing that has improved, at least ESLs casting is really solid).
I've also got back a bit to watching SC2 from DOTA2 (more like there's seemingly a lot less tournies in dota right now), and games have been actually pretty interesting. I still miss the overall warfare all over the map SC1 had. But still, pretty enjoyable and good casts. So many pros are casting right now that at least I get interesting caster duos and less Tasteless-like bullshit lol -_-
On February 16 2014 04:55 Destructicon wrote: Well, I agree with you on a lot of things, despite a lot of bitching that goes around the forums the game has indeed improved a lot.
The map pool right up to this season was fantastic and the way Blizzard has handled new maps was a lot better. The MUs all became a lot more dynamic in HoTS and a lot more exciting for the most part. I can honestly say that for 2013 HoTS was a huge improvement to WoL.
But to say that the game still doesn't have some issues is kind of naive, sure the game hasn't yet reached the snooze fest that WoL became at the end but, at this rate its getting there. I think you aren't quite viewing it with the same scrutiny as the rest of the community here on TL, because you haven't watched as much SC2 as the rest of them. I for one saw nearly all premier tournaments last year and nearly all GSTL and Proleague games to boot. I've already seen hundreds of SH games and, after so many of them, I know for sure I don't want many more of them. And thus the current trend of seeing more SH games and also longer ones worries me greatly.
I agree that a lot of the doom and gloom posts are still stupid, I do hate the disrespect that a lot of top end players are receiving because of all of these recent trends, but I don't really think they should be ignored either. They are signs of a problem and that things should indeed change.
You posted that BW also had its spurs of bad periods and its own problems, but maps improved, strategies changed and that period ended. All this discontent is the community crying out for a change. The same way your body alerts you to a problem by producing pain, the same way the community and the players are trying to reach out and signal a problem.
There is always room for improvement. But, I'll explain my fear when it comes to SC2. Not that it won't reach the standard or "legacy" of BW (whatever that means) or be the greatest E-Sport of all time. Frankly, I could not give a single shit about any of that. But, that we complain so much and so consistently that we create problems where there are none while also creating new problems from "solving" old problems and end up chasing our tails in an ever decreasing circle. With all the whining that goes on, my fear is that "we as a community" will eventually get what we whine for. And it will not be a better game.
On February 16 2014 04:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote: as someone who watches the game in bursts every 6 months or so
I'd feel the exact same way about how good HotS is if I didn't regularly watch. If they fixed early game TvP and improved the Swarm Host attack mechanic I think the complaining would be cut by an order of magnitude.
I feel like what's gotten so much worse isn't necessarily the game (as you say it's gotten better), but the community. When you think of it, a LOT people (or the so called vocal minority, or whatever...) have been complaing about something in sc2 extremely vehemently since, let's say, the range 5 queen patch. That is a lot of time to get "used" to complaining about basically everything, and it's gotten to a point where, almost always, it's always the solution. Lose in ladder? Cry about balance. Terran loses in GSL? Cry about balance. Boring games? Cry about balance. It's really frustrating
But yeah, amazing post Jinro, i wish more people just simply enjoyed watching the game
On February 16 2014 04:55 Destructicon wrote: But to say that the game still doesn't have some issues is kind of naive, sure the game hasn't yet reached the snooze fest that WoL became at the end but, at this rate its getting there. I think you aren't quite viewing it with the same scrutiny as the rest of the community here on TL, because you haven't watched as much SC2 as the rest of them. I for one saw nearly all premier tournaments last year and nearly all GSTL and Proleague games to boot. I've already seen hundreds of SH games and, after so many of them, I know for sure I don't want many more of them.
What in particular about "swarmhost games" is it that bothers you so much, because the zvps involving swarmhosts are not at all like WoL. Even the super passive stephano / foreigner styles of swarmhost v p are more strategic and positional than bl infestor
Its boring, and I'll explain why. SH are boring because, when controlled well, they are nearly never in a position where they can not be cost efficient. You can lose millions of locust over the duration of a game, doesn't matter as long as the SH survive. And since the SH are so cost efficient its hard to get invested into the action and its also incredibly frustrating to watch because you know the guy on the receiving end is being so cost inefficient and there is little he can do against it.
Tanks are a whole lot different, they have some major weaknesses, their range is high, but not as high as SH's potential range, they are still prone to being overrun, they are vulnerable to melee units that get in range, and they are very vunlerable from air attacks. SH fire from such a long range that they never truly feel vulnerable, they aren't vulnerable to melee, and despite the fact they are hard countered by air, you still require detection to kill them.
Edit: Forgot to add, SH not only do damage from range, they create their own meatshield, and for free, against terrans or toss, you could sometimes at least be somewhat cost efficient by destroying the meatshield and then forcing the tanks/ colossus back, otherwise they'd be overun and lost, that dynamic is not possible with SH, because they continually spawn their own protection.
Thus because SH are so safe in general it undermines all the positional and strategic potential they have. When you force a terran to unsiege and move his tanks in order to defend another part of the map, there is a huge moment of tension for the terran, because there is a real posibility for the tanks to be caught unsieged in transit and killed, that dynamic is nearly non existent with SH, because you put them somewhere behind, burrow them to release locust, then move them back to safety.
I agree with Jinro, the way the unit interacts with terrain is indeed interesting, but in its current form its way too efficient, and thus uninteresting. If it had sort of a max range, and a longer burrow time, such that there was a risk to them also being caught unburrowed and killed, then they would be a lot more interesting, and they would actually be truly strategic and positional. You can't have real strategy without real risk.
Myb problem with the unit is that it frequently ends up in stalemates in which neither side can progress.
My idea for how to make the unit more interesting is (and it might be bad) to make locusts cost energy (or possibly swarmhost hp), and build in a mana regenerating spell into the unit (consume or self cannibalizing), as well as add an overcharge ability that would somehow temporarily either increase the strength of locusts or the speed at which they spawn, in return for the swarmhost then having a long cooldoqn where it cannot spawn any new units.
This way there would be more give and take rather than only take, and the sh would be able to push through in certain spots that it currently cannot.
Another benefit of energy req is that it opens ghosts up as viable soft counter (wonder how good nuke would be at this point, probably cant get in range to force reposition), and if the self cannibalizing version of consume was implemented it would help storm s efficacy.
Anyway this could all be bullshit but its fun to think about.
On February 16 2014 04:25 Heyoka wrote: That's why all this is so frustrating to read the hate on TL/reddit. SC2 as a game has never been better yet all people want to do is whine.
At least some people get it.
I'm glad Jinro said it. Maybe it will help others slowly realise the same thing.
But you know what is missing in sc2?
Rivalries. Not enough real rivalries atm.
The day we get some real big rivalries, we will see the game push forward again.
And thank you for your positivity. I dont understand the SC 2 community. On the one side it can be the best community one can wish for. Supporting struggling athletes (Hyun) or creating amazing entertainment (Carbot, an many others). On the other side every small problem is blown up into the apocalypse for SC2. Yeah terrans performed poorly, but instead of waiting some months till the pros figured out how to win again vs P, everyone screams : Protoss IMBA and D.Kim is an idiot etc. Every new map is horrible and every game that is special is prove for how bad the game is.
So i hope this awsome community listens to your wise words Jinro and calms da fuck down.
SC 2 is a great game. In my opinion it is the best e-sports game out there.
With best regards
Wingless
PS : The funny thing is other games have horrible games too. On TI 3 (Dota) there was an awful game between 2 Chinese Teams, that lastet for ever, both teams where to afraid to attack. It was super boring. But no one said the game was bad.
Really great read, being casual in WoL and a bit more hardcore now in hots I can't agree more. When I queue for a ladder game the only map im concerned with is Alterzime which is fine cause i just veto it
EPT
