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I always thought that sc2 was kinda "rotten at its core", especially protoss. Recent iem has convinced me from the opposite though. A pvt where both players try to split their army in many small squads to create as many attention points at the same time as possible is really awesome and pvt was always a retarded all-in vs turtle into deathball vs deathball mu in my head.
I think the negativity is a result of people seeing bw through rose-colored glasses and dont think that blizzard will fulfill their expectations with Lotv, which is create a game similar to "dream"-bw with loads of small micro-battles, multi-pronged attacks etc. People arent expecting realistic changes of sc2, but a perfect game. I agree to people like Lalush that sc2 could be a lot better, but everybody is expecting wonders from a dead genre.
I am not sure that Lotv will produce the playable rts salvation that everybody is waiting for, but i think sc2 is on the right way to become pretty cool. Which is something i woudnt have said half a year ago.
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Good to hear from you Jinro. Good luck with your future endeavors. Will you post a video of your first amateur fight?
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Jinro! Ur still my hero. Thanks for the write up.
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Great blog. Basically sums up a lot of the feelings I've had for the longest time now
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Very insightful blog! 0_0
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Well, if SC2 got any worse after WoL it would actually be dead. I agree that the amount of complaining in general, for pretty much any game, is too much, but I don't think complaining is inherently a bad thing.
Consider this: would SC2 have, as a whole, improved so quickly (truthfully not quick, but w/e) if people didn't complain? People complain because they aren't satisfied. Sure, nowadays a lot of people are vocal about a lot of stupid shit on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean the original complaints didn't have any merit. Blizzard has underperformed in their development of SC2 the past few years and the community has understandably been vocal about that. Just because they're just seemingly starting to get it together doesn't mean much; they still have a ways to go.
Pretty sure if Blizzard actually took suggestions on how to improve the game/etc. to heart at the start then the game would be in a much much better place. I don't think the complaints themselves should be given any thought, but why people complain should.
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On February 19 2014 17:24 Kishin2 wrote:
Well, if SC2 got any worse after WoL it would actually be dead. I agree that the amount of complaining in general, for pretty much any game, is too much, but I don't think complaining is inherently a bad thing.
Consider this: would SC2 have, as a whole, improved so quickly (truthfully not quick, but w/e) if people didn't complain? People complain because they aren't satisfied. Sure, nowadays a lot of people are vocal about a lot of stupid shit on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean the original complaints didn't have any merit. Blizzard has underperformed in their development of SC2 the past few years and the community has understandably been vocal about that. Just because they're just seemingly starting to get it together doesn't mean much; they still have a ways to go.
Pretty sure if Blizzard actually took suggestions on how to improve the game/etc. to heart at the start then the game would be in a much much better place. I don't think the complaints themselves should be given any thought, but why people complain should.
You do realize that it was suggestions on how to improve the game from the community that got much of what we got in the expansion?
They specifically stated they wanted something to help protoss scout because they could never tell what terran was doing.
They specifically stated they wanted something to allow protoss to pressure without having to go all in because toss units were so slow compared to speedlings especially.
They specifically stated they wanted something to help toss with the 1-1-1 attacks.
They specifically asked for an early game harassment option for protoss.
There were so many calls for vultures and mines.
There were so many calls to make mech more viable for Terran.
There were so many calls to end infestor broodlord.
So...Blizzard listened to the community.
I really think people are projecting onto blizzard because most of the stuff they post as fact is nothing remotely close to reality.
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On February 19 2014 17:24 Kishin2 wrote:
Well, if SC2 got any worse after WoL it would actually be dead. I agree that the amount of complaining in general, for pretty much any game, is too much, but I don't think complaining is inherently a bad thing.
Consider this: would SC2 have, as a whole, improved so quickly (truthfully not quick, but w/e) if people didn't complain? People complain because they aren't satisfied. Sure, nowadays a lot of people are vocal about a lot of stupid shit on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean the original complaints didn't have any merit. Blizzard has underperformed in their development of SC2 the past few years and the community has understandably been vocal about that. Just because they're just seemingly starting to get it together doesn't mean much; they still have a ways to go.
Pretty sure if Blizzard actually took suggestions on how to improve the game/etc. to heart at the start then the game would be in a much much better place. I don't think the complaints themselves should be given any thought, but why people complain should.
I think the point Jinro is making is that a casual visitor to TL might think that SC2 is a shit game and soon to be dead.
When actually it is neither shit nor dead.
In fact, my belief is that if "the community" or Blizzard don't fuck up it up, we may actually have a great and vibrant game on our hands with LOTV (at the moment, however, I do not think SC2 is a great game, merely [!] a very good one).
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On February 19 2014 17:52 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2014 17:24 Kishin2 wrote:
Well, if SC2 got any worse after WoL it would actually be dead. I agree that the amount of complaining in general, for pretty much any game, is too much, but I don't think complaining is inherently a bad thing.
Consider this: would SC2 have, as a whole, improved so quickly (truthfully not quick, but w/e) if people didn't complain? People complain because they aren't satisfied. Sure, nowadays a lot of people are vocal about a lot of stupid shit on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean the original complaints didn't have any merit. Blizzard has underperformed in their development of SC2 the past few years and the community has understandably been vocal about that. Just because they're just seemingly starting to get it together doesn't mean much; they still have a ways to go.
Pretty sure if Blizzard actually took suggestions on how to improve the game/etc. to heart at the start then the game would be in a much much better place. I don't think the complaints themselves should be given any thought, but why people complain should. I think the point Jinro is making is that a casual visitor to TL might think that SC2 is a shit game and soon to be dead. When actually it is neither shit nor dead. In fact, my belief is that if "the community" or Blizzard don't fuck up it up, we may actually have a great and vibrant game on our hands with LOTV (at the moment, however, I do not think SC2 is a great game, merely [!] a very good one).
Or to your point...solid viewership numbers for IEM last weekend and then WCS Europe just days later and early in the day started out with 20k viewers...on a Tuesday...in the middle of the day. That is pretty good for round of 32 games early. Let's see what Code S has in 4 minutes...even though I suspect most of the hardcore fans watch VODs and not live because the time isn't exactly good for Europe or NA to watch it live. I'm curious as to how many viewers these dead game posters think that BW was drawing in a year compared to StarCraft 2 because there isn't even a comparison (internationally).
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Some wise words from Chinro!
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Looking at the old BW PvZ QQ threads, I don't feel *so* bad about the whiners these days. Even if the Protoss hate IS worse than Broodlord/Infestor ever was.
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On February 19 2014 17:59 Eliezar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2014 17:52 aZealot wrote:On February 19 2014 17:24 Kishin2 wrote:
Well, if SC2 got any worse after WoL it would actually be dead. I agree that the amount of complaining in general, for pretty much any game, is too much, but I don't think complaining is inherently a bad thing.
Consider this: would SC2 have, as a whole, improved so quickly (truthfully not quick, but w/e) if people didn't complain? People complain because they aren't satisfied. Sure, nowadays a lot of people are vocal about a lot of stupid shit on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean the original complaints didn't have any merit. Blizzard has underperformed in their development of SC2 the past few years and the community has understandably been vocal about that. Just because they're just seemingly starting to get it together doesn't mean much; they still have a ways to go.
Pretty sure if Blizzard actually took suggestions on how to improve the game/etc. to heart at the start then the game would be in a much much better place. I don't think the complaints themselves should be given any thought, but why people complain should. I think the point Jinro is making is that a casual visitor to TL might think that SC2 is a shit game and soon to be dead. When actually it is neither shit nor dead. In fact, my belief is that if "the community" or Blizzard don't fuck up it up, we may actually have a great and vibrant game on our hands with LOTV (at the moment, however, I do not think SC2 is a great game, merely [!] a very good one). Or to your point...solid viewership numbers for IEM last weekend and then WCS Europe just days later and early in the day started out with 20k viewers...on a Tuesday...in the middle of the day. That is pretty good for round of 32 games early. Let's see what Code S has in 4 minutes...even though I suspect most of the hardcore fans watch VODs and not live because the time isn't exactly good for Europe or NA to watch it live. I'm curious as to how many viewers these dead game posters think that BW was drawing in a year compared to StarCraft 2 because there isn't even a comparison (internationally).
The comparison is completely invalid. The most obvious reason being that BW was the first game to really elevate eSports, so in that timeline it just doesn't make sense. The maybe less obvious reasons being that in the year 1999 2000 etc video hosting was really not great and something only super nerds bothered with (low quality 160p streams). Internationally it was enjoyed by most people via replays, when low file size was something important. Within Korea it was enjoyed on cable TV channels, and really what gave those game channels a breath of life. I don't say that SC2 needs to be on cable TV to be valid, because right now we live in the future where lots of people under 30 have never even paid for cable TV in their life and just watch everything online (but still that means only people seeking it out will find it).
Still I think even if SC2 is popular internationally, people who tune into GSL (the highest level of competition), in Korea where all the best players are from, and then see a studio with mostly empty seats of course has an impact on how well they think SC2 is doing. It's always pitiful to see the strongest players without an audience. It's a very peculiar thing how acceptable it is in this community to favour watching people who are white. In BW it was amateurs and that could be interesting, but now it's just pros who aren't as good and don't practice as hard.
+ Show Spoiler +edit: actually it probably is on cable TV now since they took over proleague... Or is that even on TV anymore. I really don't know.
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I think the problem was that we were used to being number one in esports in terms of everything. Now we are number 3 on average (behind LoL and Dota2).
SC2 still gets high numbers for tournaments, but the age of personal streaming is over. I rarely see a pro-gamer streaming to more than 2000 viewers (it used to be a much higher number).
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Couldn't agree more.
Kämpa på!
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On February 20 2014 10:38 Crownlol wrote:
Looking at the old BW PvZ QQ threads, I don't feel *so* bad about the whiners these days. Even if the Protoss hate IS worse than Broodlord/Infestor ever was.
Thing is that w/ Blizzard patching games left and right, you don't feel as impressive as a race is winning a whole lot where as BW was more akin to "Holy shit Bisu did it vs sAviOr against all odds!" and/or "Wow Flash finally solved Protoss' mas expansion into gateway strategy!". In SC2, it feels really unsatisfying knowing that a huge reason why a race is winning so much is BECAUSE of a recent patch thus rendering cheering for anyone to be rather pointless.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On February 21 2014 01:20 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2014 10:38 Crownlol wrote:
Looking at the old BW PvZ QQ threads, I don't feel *so* bad about the whiners these days. Even if the Protoss hate IS worse than Broodlord/Infestor ever was. Thing is that w/ Blizzard patching games left and right, you don't feel as impressive as a race is winning a whole lot where as BW was more akin to "Holy shit Bisu did it vs sAviOr against all odds!" and/or "Wow Flash finally solved Protoss' mas expansion into gateway strategy!". In SC2, it feels really unsatisfying knowing that a huge reason why a race is winning so much is BECAUSE of a recent patch thus rendering cheering for anyone to be rather pointless.
I don't know if I would go that far since I still cheer for Jaedong whenever I watch SCII lol but I think until Blizzard stops patching, some people will always have the feeling that it's due to the patching that a race is winning more or less regardless if it's true or not. Those Bisu vs Savior games, Savior was dismantled lol especially game 3 XD Wish I was on TL at that time because I can only imagine how many speechless people there were lol.
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On February 21 2014 01:25 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 01:20 Xiphos wrote:On February 20 2014 10:38 Crownlol wrote:
Looking at the old BW PvZ QQ threads, I don't feel *so* bad about the whiners these days. Even if the Protoss hate IS worse than Broodlord/Infestor ever was. Thing is that w/ Blizzard patching games left and right, you don't feel as impressive as a race is winning a whole lot where as BW was more akin to "Holy shit Bisu did it vs sAviOr against all odds!" and/or "Wow Flash finally solved Protoss' mas expansion into gateway strategy!". In SC2, it feels really unsatisfying knowing that a huge reason why a race is winning so much is BECAUSE of a recent patch thus rendering cheering for anyone to be rather pointless. I don't know if I would go that far since I still cheer for Jaedong whenever I watch SCII lol but I think until Blizzard stops patching, some people will always have the feeling that it's due to the patching that a race is winning more or less regardless if it's true or not. Those Bisu vs Savior games, Savior was dismantled lol especially game 3 XD Wish I was on TL at that time because I can only imagine how many speechless people there were lol.
and people losing money !
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Wow this was really needed badly these days. It's been so negative around this game and the current state of play that I feel a lot of things aren't appreciated very much. The skill ceiling in HotS increased tremendously from WoL and it's apparent with how good players have gotten recently. Your perspective on things have really made me rethink certain things, because I, like most everyone, have gotten sucked into the negativity recently. Although I try to enjoy and appreciate things, I find myself jumping to complain about things I normally wouldn't have, but mainly just the SwarmHost >.< But your suggestions on how to improve them were great imo, and the stale-mate factor is probably the biggest thing that needs fixing and your suggestions for that seemed great too. But all-in-all I'm super excited for where the game has gotten to.
Even just reading through the comments in this thread from commenters there is a much more positive and constructive attitude with the posts, and boy is that rare these days. I actually wanted to keep reading all 13 pages of the comments lol.
Even TvP, we can find positive things from this. Terran is now forced to try/figure out new ways of playing. It's evolving the matchup. Instead of just straight up bio pushes/scv pulls we are seeing a large diversity in strategy imo. The games at IEM Cologne were amazing, and Polt played outstandingly along with HerO and other players, the skill on display was just mindblowing. But even 2 days ago NaNiwa vs Bunny in WCS EU, we are seeing Tanks used for defense, and things like this that we didn't really see very much at all. Blizzard has acknowledged a desire to help Terran's out, and I think the game will only get better, but hopefully doesn't kill off the Terran diversity we are seeing now.
Great read and to all the commenters <3 we should lead by example and bring the positivity back to TL sc2 ! 
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Hello Chinbro, great blog :D
Off-topic, but curious, what is your diet like since training for MMA?
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You're the man Jinro.
I agree.
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EPT
