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On September 13 2013 08:43 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 08:37 ChristianS wrote:On September 13 2013 08:31 IronManSC wrote:
Whether or not someone believes in God, everyone has an inward interest in him in some form or another. That's why questions of curiosity and debates pop up. Some of us Christians have been trying to point to the core of true faith, the true Christianity. That is Jesus Christ. Instead of talking about science, philosophical stuff, and why the Old Testament is even there, why don't you just ask Jesus if he's real? If you really ask him in your heart, he will come to you. You got to go to the source of it all. Conversion isn't quite as simple as that. I assume the idea here is for non-Christian readers to, out of curiosity, decide to think "Jesus, are you real?" in their head, feeling a little silly doing it. Then they'll be on the lookout for the next few days for some sign from Jesus that he is, in fact, real. But anyone with even a little scientific or statistical background will immediately recognize the massive confirmation bias in such an "experiment." Conversion is a transformation of the heart, solely under the control of God. He comes to you immediately if you earnestly meant it when you asked him into your life and to be your Lord and Savior. It really is that simple. God himself made it simple by asking you to just believe that Jesus is the Son of God. However, for some people, experiencing the evidence of that conversion differs upon person, depending on how God wants to work in that person's life. For some it's a complete 180 turn, like Saul when he was blinded by God. For others, it's a gradual process, slowly recognizing that their perspective and view on things in life are slowly changing. You gradually start thinking more about what God wants rather than what you want.
Almost anyone, given the same experience as Saul, would at least budge in the direction of religiosity (a few diehard skeptics might call it a hallucination, but if the scripture is to be believed, Saul was about as big a skeptic as anyone). It's sort of odd from the fairness standpoint IgnE was arguing earlier that Saul of all people was granted such a vision, when so many have greater faith than he did and are never offered such a chance. I suppose the religious answer would be that Saul received that vision not because he deserved it, but because the gospel needed him.
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On September 13 2013 08:59 Birdie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 08:57 HardlyNever wrote:On September 13 2013 08:31 IronManSC wrote:
Whether or not someone believes in God, everyone has an inward interest in him in some form or another. That's why questions of curiosity and debates pop up. Some of us Christians have been trying to point to the core of true faith, the true Christianity. That is Jesus Christ. Instead of talking about science, philosophical stuff, and why the Old Testament is even there, why don't you just ask Jesus if he's real? If you really ask him in your heart, he will come to you. You got to go to the source of it all. I think this where a lot of the frustration comes from when non-believers try to discuss religion. I'm genuinely interested in understanding modern biblical interpretation, and the reasons behind it. I know it will vary from person to person, and that is fine. I just want to try to understand why some people choose some things out of the bible, while some choose others. In response I get something completely illogical and unrelated. I feel like this is what happens when you start asking too many questions at a church. They say "stop caring about those questions; you're focusing on the wrong thing, just turn to Jesus." Asking myself who Jesus is doesn't do anything to answer my question. To me, Jesus is a Jew that lived from roughly 0-30ish AD, was baptized by John, and was crucified. That's who Jesus is to me, because that is all we can accurately historically prove about him. He falls under the category, for me, as "another prophet guy" from that time period, who, as someone who studies that time period (but not Christianity specifically), was basically a dime a dozen. You couldn't swing a cat without hitting some radical prophet back then. His is one of the cults that made it. That's who he is to me. I know that isn't who he is to you, and that's fine. However, in no way does asking myself "who is Jesus Christ" do I get closer to answering my question, which is: how do contemporary (modern) christians choose what they believe out of the bible, and what they don't. Wondering about Jesus does nothing for that, because to me he is that I guy I stated above. I'm not perhaps a good example of a modern contemporary Christian, but I choose to believe all of the Bible as the infallible inspired word of God 
Ok, so you try to do all the things the bible says? Like even the really hard/weird stuff like not mixing threads of different fabric, keeping women obedient, and not working at Sunday?
If you don't do those things, how do you justify not doing them, if everything in the bible is the infallible word of god? How do you personally create a hierarchy of "stuff you really should (shouldn't) do, and stuff you should try to do, but it's ok if I can't keep up with that."
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On September 13 2013 09:07 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 08:59 Birdie wrote:On September 13 2013 08:57 HardlyNever wrote:On September 13 2013 08:31 IronManSC wrote:
Whether or not someone believes in God, everyone has an inward interest in him in some form or another. That's why questions of curiosity and debates pop up. Some of us Christians have been trying to point to the core of true faith, the true Christianity. That is Jesus Christ. Instead of talking about science, philosophical stuff, and why the Old Testament is even there, why don't you just ask Jesus if he's real? If you really ask him in your heart, he will come to you. You got to go to the source of it all. I think this where a lot of the frustration comes from when non-believers try to discuss religion. I'm genuinely interested in understanding modern biblical interpretation, and the reasons behind it. I know it will vary from person to person, and that is fine. I just want to try to understand why some people choose some things out of the bible, while some choose others. In response I get something completely illogical and unrelated. I feel like this is what happens when you start asking too many questions at a church. They say "stop caring about those questions; you're focusing on the wrong thing, just turn to Jesus." Asking myself who Jesus is doesn't do anything to answer my question. To me, Jesus is a Jew that lived from roughly 0-30ish AD, was baptized by John, and was crucified. That's who Jesus is to me, because that is all we can accurately historically prove about him. He falls under the category, for me, as "another prophet guy" from that time period, who, as someone who studies that time period (but not Christianity specifically), was basically a dime a dozen. You couldn't swing a cat without hitting some radical prophet back then. His is one of the cults that made it. That's who he is to me. I know that isn't who he is to you, and that's fine. However, in no way does asking myself "who is Jesus Christ" do I get closer to answering my question, which is: how do contemporary (modern) christians choose what they believe out of the bible, and what they don't. Wondering about Jesus does nothing for that, because to me he is that I guy I stated above. I'm not perhaps a good example of a modern contemporary Christian, but I choose to believe all of the Bible as the infallible inspired word of God Ok, so you try to do all the things the bible says? Like even the really hard/weird stuff like not mixing threads of different fabric, keeping women obedient, and not working at Sunday? If you don't do those things, how do you justify not doing them, if everything in the bible is the infallible word of god? How do you personally create a hierarchy of "stuff you really should (shouldn't) do, and stuff you should try to do, but it's ok if I can't keep up with that."
The Bible is a whole unit, looking at individual verses without taking into account the context surrounding them is a poor way to interpret it. In the case of mixing threads of different fabrics, this is taken from what is usually termed the ceremonial law, which is Old Testament, Israel-specific law. While the Ten Commandments (the moral law) were clearly not abolished, the ceremonial law was abolished with the coming of Jesus. So it would be correct to have women be obedient to their husbands, and it would be correct to not work on Sunday, but it would not be correct to not mix threads, or to go to the temple at Jerusalem yearly (not even possible anymore ) and so on.
A common argument some of my Muslim friends give me is that the Bible forbids the eating of pig flesh (pork). However, that was also part of the ceremonial law. http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Acts 10.9–16 shows an exact example of this part of the ceremonial law being abolished (all flesh holy to eat, so pig flesh is holy to eat).
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Ok, forget the old testament stuff. Do you work on sundays? Do you think slavery is ok? Would you have a problem with a woman being a teacher, especially your teacher?
If you don't agree with those things, why is that ok?
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On September 13 2013 09:29 HardlyNever wrote:
Ok, forget the old testament stuff. Do you work on sundays? Do you think slavery is ok? Would you have a problem with a woman being a teacher, especially your teacher?
If you don't agree with those things, why is that ok?
I don't work on Sundays. I think slavery, while not ideal, is probably a better solution to debt that getting off scot free, and better than debter's prison (but that's a complicated issue; I don't think it's good for people to be forced into slavery after being stolen, so your classic view of slavery is not what I consider to be "good" slavery. If you want to talk more about it you can PM me but I don't want to derail the topic with slavery talk, as it's not as simple an issue as it first seems.). I have a problem with women being teachers in churches if they're teaching men, because that's specifically condemned in the Bible. This is not because women are necessarily bad at teaching, of course. It's rather to do with God's definition of the roles of men and women, with men having the duty of leading, particularly in the church situation.
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You say that slavery is not good. But the bible says slavery is fine. If the bible is, according to you, the infallible word of God, how do you explain the disconnect?
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On September 13 2013 10:29 Myrkskog wrote:
You say that slavery is not good. But the bible says slavery is fine. If the bible is, according to you, the infallible word of God, how do you explain the disconnect?
I'm at work currently so I can't talk much but I wanted to ask, where in the Bible does it say "slavery is fine?"
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On September 13 2013 02:41 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2013 18:41 mizU wrote:
I used to Christian and now I consider myself agnostic.
Christian views on homosexuality really got to me. What are your thoughts? There are a lot of "christians" out there who are extremely rude when it comes to this topic. I apologize if you've come across those Bible thumpers who are judgmental and condemning. God calls us to not judge, for that is his job in the end. Someone who is a homosexual is a human being, just like you and me. They being trapped in their sin is no different than one of us being trapped in our own personal habitual sin. As Christians, we are called to gently help and pray for someone who has fallen into a sinful lifestyle and help them repent of it. Repent means to turn away, to stop doing what you're doing. In the Bible there's a story of a woman who believed she had sinned so greatly that she deserved to be stone. Everyone around her was about to stone her to death because of her abominable sin(s), yet Jesus stepped in and said "If any one of you has not sinned, let him be the first to cast a stone!" No one ended up throwing a stone. Jesus helped the woman up and told her "you are forgiven, go and sin no more." In other words, leave your sinful lifestyle and pursue God. Our calling is to love people the way that Christ loved others. While on earth, Jesus reached out to all types of people, from alcoholics, to prostitutes, to the poor, the rich, the sick, the adulterers, the murderers, the demonically possessed, the tax collectors, and many more. He even reached out to the government officials when he could. He didn't come to hang out with the humble believers, he came to save those who are lost and make a way to be made forever right with God, the One who created you. There is no reason why God can not, and will not reach out to someone in homosexuality if he chooses. I am sure there are plenty of true Christians who once were a homosexual, though I've never known any personally. Homosexuality is a serious offense in God's eyes, but we must not forget that it is a sin just like all the other ones. No sin is greater than another. Someone who sins in homosexuality is no more or less greater than the one who lies to his parents. All sins are forgivable by God except for one: the deliberate refusal in the heart to acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God - to reject Christ as Lord and Savior, who died for you. I believe God gives many chances for people to turn to him, because he is gracious and merciful like that. But, there does come a point of no return. One may argue that homosexuality is genetic and you therefore didn't choose to do it, it's just who you are. I believe that we are all born into sin. From the moment we breathe, we are in need of God's grace. No one teaches their child to say "mine!" when playing with toys. It's our sinful nature that teaches us that we are the god of our own lives and that we can make whatever decisions we want that makes us happy. If anyone lives a lifestyle of homosexuality, it's because they chose to practice it. Just because you feel a certain way doesn't mean you have to act on it, and just because it's a desire you have doesn't mean it's necessarily good for you and that you should pursue it. (I'm not going to argue about this topic). Anyway that's my pretty basic view on it. I hope it makes sense.
And that's exactly why I stopped believing.
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On September 13 2013 11:37 mizU wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 02:41 IronManSC wrote:On September 12 2013 18:41 mizU wrote:
I used to Christian and now I consider myself agnostic.
Christian views on homosexuality really got to me. What are your thoughts? There are a lot of "christians" out there who are extremely rude when it comes to this topic. I apologize if you've come across those Bible thumpers who are judgmental and condemning. God calls us to not judge, for that is his job in the end. Someone who is a homosexual is a human being, just like you and me. They being trapped in their sin is no different than one of us being trapped in our own personal habitual sin. As Christians, we are called to gently help and pray for someone who has fallen into a sinful lifestyle and help them repent of it. Repent means to turn away, to stop doing what you're doing. In the Bible there's a story of a woman who believed she had sinned so greatly that she deserved to be stone. Everyone around her was about to stone her to death because of her abominable sin(s), yet Jesus stepped in and said "If any one of you has not sinned, let him be the first to cast a stone!" No one ended up throwing a stone. Jesus helped the woman up and told her "you are forgiven, go and sin no more." In other words, leave your sinful lifestyle and pursue God. Our calling is to love people the way that Christ loved others. While on earth, Jesus reached out to all types of people, from alcoholics, to prostitutes, to the poor, the rich, the sick, the adulterers, the murderers, the demonically possessed, the tax collectors, and many more. He even reached out to the government officials when he could. He didn't come to hang out with the humble believers, he came to save those who are lost and make a way to be made forever right with God, the One who created you. There is no reason why God can not, and will not reach out to someone in homosexuality if he chooses. I am sure there are plenty of true Christians who once were a homosexual, though I've never known any personally. Homosexuality is a serious offense in God's eyes, but we must not forget that it is a sin just like all the other ones. No sin is greater than another. Someone who sins in homosexuality is no more or less greater than the one who lies to his parents. All sins are forgivable by God except for one: the deliberate refusal in the heart to acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God - to reject Christ as Lord and Savior, who died for you. I believe God gives many chances for people to turn to him, because he is gracious and merciful like that. But, there does come a point of no return. One may argue that homosexuality is genetic and you therefore didn't choose to do it, it's just who you are. I believe that we are all born into sin. From the moment we breathe, we are in need of God's grace. No one teaches their child to say "mine!" when playing with toys. It's our sinful nature that teaches us that we are the god of our own lives and that we can make whatever decisions we want that makes us happy. If anyone lives a lifestyle of homosexuality, it's because they chose to practice it. Just because you feel a certain way doesn't mean you have to act on it, and just because it's a desire you have doesn't mean it's necessarily good for you and that you should pursue it. (I'm not going to argue about this topic). Anyway that's my pretty basic view on it. I hope it makes sense. And that's exactly why I stopped believing.
Why exactly?
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On September 13 2013 10:49 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 10:29 Myrkskog wrote:
You say that slavery is not good. But the bible says slavery is fine. If the bible is, according to you, the infallible word of God, how do you explain the disconnect? I'm at work currently so I can't talk much but I wanted to ask, where in the Bible does it say "slavery is fine?"
Exodus and Leviticus. And I guess "slavery is fine" was a weird was of phrasing it, implying that it was tolerant of something that was going on around it. What I should have said is the bible encourages slavery.
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On September 13 2013 12:21 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 11:37 mizU wrote:On September 13 2013 02:41 IronManSC wrote:On September 12 2013 18:41 mizU wrote:
I used to Christian and now I consider myself agnostic.
Christian views on homosexuality really got to me. What are your thoughts? There are a lot of "christians" out there who are extremely rude when it comes to this topic. I apologize if you've come across those Bible thumpers who are judgmental and condemning. God calls us to not judge, for that is his job in the end. Someone who is a homosexual is a human being, just like you and me. They being trapped in their sin is no different than one of us being trapped in our own personal habitual sin. As Christians, we are called to gently help and pray for someone who has fallen into a sinful lifestyle and help them repent of it. Repent means to turn away, to stop doing what you're doing. In the Bible there's a story of a woman who believed she had sinned so greatly that she deserved to be stone. Everyone around her was about to stone her to death because of her abominable sin(s), yet Jesus stepped in and said "If any one of you has not sinned, let him be the first to cast a stone!" No one ended up throwing a stone. Jesus helped the woman up and told her "you are forgiven, go and sin no more." In other words, leave your sinful lifestyle and pursue God. Our calling is to love people the way that Christ loved others. While on earth, Jesus reached out to all types of people, from alcoholics, to prostitutes, to the poor, the rich, the sick, the adulterers, the murderers, the demonically possessed, the tax collectors, and many more. He even reached out to the government officials when he could. He didn't come to hang out with the humble believers, he came to save those who are lost and make a way to be made forever right with God, the One who created you. There is no reason why God can not, and will not reach out to someone in homosexuality if he chooses. I am sure there are plenty of true Christians who once were a homosexual, though I've never known any personally. Homosexuality is a serious offense in God's eyes, but we must not forget that it is a sin just like all the other ones. No sin is greater than another. Someone who sins in homosexuality is no more or less greater than the one who lies to his parents. All sins are forgivable by God except for one: the deliberate refusal in the heart to acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God - to reject Christ as Lord and Savior, who died for you. I believe God gives many chances for people to turn to him, because he is gracious and merciful like that. But, there does come a point of no return. One may argue that homosexuality is genetic and you therefore didn't choose to do it, it's just who you are. I believe that we are all born into sin. From the moment we breathe, we are in need of God's grace. No one teaches their child to say "mine!" when playing with toys. It's our sinful nature that teaches us that we are the god of our own lives and that we can make whatever decisions we want that makes us happy. If anyone lives a lifestyle of homosexuality, it's because they chose to practice it. Just because you feel a certain way doesn't mean you have to act on it, and just because it's a desire you have doesn't mean it's necessarily good for you and that you should pursue it. (I'm not going to argue about this topic). Anyway that's my pretty basic view on it. I hope it makes sense. And that's exactly why I stopped believing. Why exactly?
The women was caught committing adultery and was being held trial, she didn't feel so sinful she turned herself in. Jesus was asked to make a judgement and he was asked cuz the religious leaders thought they could catch him saying something that contradicted the bible or his message. While you kept the message of the story you did put a significant "spin" on it to make Jesus look more heroic than the bible made him out to be. I am probably just being pedantic but how is it I recognize a warped biblical story from someone who claims to believe the book is his guide to his everlasting life? (I am non-beliver but read the bible and tried out various church groups, everyone seemed to treat it pretty casually for what a big deal they claim it to be hence I didn't really pursue my studies)
For a "perfect book" that is supposed to teach us what to do to be saved it sure has a lot of interpretation behind it. He probably believes in letting people's sexuality be their own personal business or something though so he's obviously not going to heaven either.
EDIT: I'm at work currently so I can't talk much but I wanted to ask, where in the Bible does it say "slavery is fine?"
After god gives the 10 commandments he goes into greater detail about the law and says slaves should be sold for 30 silver pieces and that owners can beat their slaves as long as the slave can walk after a few days...
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On September 13 2013 13:07 Awesomedrifter wrote:EDIT: Show nested quote + I'm at work currently so I can't talk much but I wanted to ask, where in the Bible does it say "slavery is fine?" After god gives the 10 commandments he goes into greater detail about the law and says slaves should be sold for 30 silver pieces and that owners can beat their slaves as long as the slave can walk after a few days...
That doesn't imply approval of slavery, but rather gives laws for what happens if you do in fact have slaves. Most of the laws are about what to do when people do bad stuff. So slavery is not a good thing in general, but if it does happen that you have slaves, here's what the law says about them.
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I remember when I was in fourth grade and I went on a misson trip, I had a leader of my church explain to me his definition of sin. He said that sin or "hamartia" was a greek term for missing the mark in archery. So if you thought of sin as "missing the mark" then you could attribute it to a greater amount of things than the bible specifically denounces. For instance, getting drunk. The bible does a whole crapton of warning against drinking and the effects of getting drunk, but as to the best of my knowledge, it doesn't specifically say, "thou shall not drink" or something to that effect. However, if you were to apply it to this, "hamartia" term, you could quantify it as sin, and therefore something that should be encouraged by other Christians to be avoided altogether.
Is there any sound logic in this theory?
Also, any time I encounter someone who quotes The Message, I just turn and walk away.
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On September 13 2013 08:31 IronManSC wrote:
Whether or not someone believes in God, everyone has an inward interest in him in some form or another. That's why questions of curiosity and debates pop up. Some of us Christians have been trying to point to the core of true faith, the true Christianity. That is Jesus Christ. Instead of talking about science, philosophical stuff, and why the Old Testament is even there, why don't you just ask Jesus if he's real? If you really ask him in your heart, he will come to you. You got to go to the source of it all.
The thing is I believe Jesus was real, that he taught valuable teachings and had an amazing impact on the world. If Christianity were only about his teachings with regards to bettering ourselves and helping others I would be much more inclined to still consider myself a Christian.
The parts that turn me away are the parts that require absolute faith and worship that feel like they are trying to control me for their own means rather than for my benefit or for achieving general "goodness". I just don't see what value they offer me, except for the value that someone who claims to speak from a divine authority says they have.
After thinking about this for a while, I think I know why I don't find value in faith and worship as others do, and it stems from the three big questions. Where did we come from? Why are we here? and What happens to us when we die? Christianity and most major religions answer these questions with God(s) and this seems to give people purpose and value to their worship. Unfortunately these answers do not satisfy me as they did when I was in primary school and early high school, all they do is lead me to further questions. If God created us, why did he create us? Why does God care if we worship him or not? If God has extremely strict rules that go against our inherent natures and determine what happens when we die, why did he explain these rules to a select few people a long time ago and require that everyone else have faith that these people have spoken to him directly?
I think most Christians would answer these questions with a simple, "because God wills it", which leads me to believe that Christianity or any of the major religions do not hold the answers to these questions, at least not for me. Many people are content with the answers that religion provide them and I don't have any issues with that, however I prefer to ponder these questions freely rather than accept answers that do not satisfy my inquisitive mind.
I'm sorry if you feel that I am trying to challenge your beliefs, but I find faith to be an interesting topic and wanted to offer my perspective of why I feel that absolute faith as a requirement was actually part of the reason for my loss of faith.
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On September 13 2013 12:21 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 11:37 mizU wrote:On September 13 2013 02:41 IronManSC wrote:On September 12 2013 18:41 mizU wrote:
I used to Christian and now I consider myself agnostic.
Christian views on homosexuality really got to me. What are your thoughts? There are a lot of "christians" out there who are extremely rude when it comes to this topic. I apologize if you've come across those Bible thumpers who are judgmental and condemning. God calls us to not judge, for that is his job in the end. Someone who is a homosexual is a human being, just like you and me. They being trapped in their sin is no different than one of us being trapped in our own personal habitual sin. As Christians, we are called to gently help and pray for someone who has fallen into a sinful lifestyle and help them repent of it. Repent means to turn away, to stop doing what you're doing. In the Bible there's a story of a woman who believed she had sinned so greatly that she deserved to be stone. Everyone around her was about to stone her to death because of her abominable sin(s), yet Jesus stepped in and said "If any one of you has not sinned, let him be the first to cast a stone!" No one ended up throwing a stone. Jesus helped the woman up and told her "you are forgiven, go and sin no more." In other words, leave your sinful lifestyle and pursue God. Our calling is to love people the way that Christ loved others. While on earth, Jesus reached out to all types of people, from alcoholics, to prostitutes, to the poor, the rich, the sick, the adulterers, the murderers, the demonically possessed, the tax collectors, and many more. He even reached out to the government officials when he could. He didn't come to hang out with the humble believers, he came to save those who are lost and make a way to be made forever right with God, the One who created you. There is no reason why God can not, and will not reach out to someone in homosexuality if he chooses. I am sure there are plenty of true Christians who once were a homosexual, though I've never known any personally. Homosexuality is a serious offense in God's eyes, but we must not forget that it is a sin just like all the other ones. No sin is greater than another. Someone who sins in homosexuality is no more or less greater than the one who lies to his parents. All sins are forgivable by God except for one: the deliberate refusal in the heart to acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God - to reject Christ as Lord and Savior, who died for you. I believe God gives many chances for people to turn to him, because he is gracious and merciful like that. But, there does come a point of no return. One may argue that homosexuality is genetic and you therefore didn't choose to do it, it's just who you are. I believe that we are all born into sin. From the moment we breathe, we are in need of God's grace. No one teaches their child to say "mine!" when playing with toys. It's our sinful nature that teaches us that we are the god of our own lives and that we can make whatever decisions we want that makes us happy. If anyone lives a lifestyle of homosexuality, it's because they chose to practice it. Just because you feel a certain way doesn't mean you have to act on it, and just because it's a desire you have doesn't mean it's necessarily good for you and that you should pursue it. (I'm not going to argue about this topic). Anyway that's my pretty basic view on it. I hope it makes sense. And that's exactly why I stopped believing. Why exactly?
Because Christians believe homosexuality is a choice.
If it was such a choice would gays that got bullied in school and beat up still be "choosing" to be gay??
Also as an ex-Christian you saying that God doesn't enter people who chose to sin is so wrong.
Christians are all sinners and you're saying that God only enters when people are sin free???
How does that work?
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On September 13 2013 09:07 HardlyNever wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 08:59 Birdie wrote:On September 13 2013 08:57 HardlyNever wrote:On September 13 2013 08:31 IronManSC wrote:
Whether or not someone believes in God, everyone has an inward interest in him in some form or another. That's why questions of curiosity and debates pop up. Some of us Christians have been trying to point to the core of true faith, the true Christianity. That is Jesus Christ. Instead of talking about science, philosophical stuff, and why the Old Testament is even there, why don't you just ask Jesus if he's real? If you really ask him in your heart, he will come to you. You got to go to the source of it all. I think this where a lot of the frustration comes from when non-believers try to discuss religion. I'm genuinely interested in understanding modern biblical interpretation, and the reasons behind it. I know it will vary from person to person, and that is fine. I just want to try to understand why some people choose some things out of the bible, while some choose others. In response I get something completely illogical and unrelated. I feel like this is what happens when you start asking too many questions at a church. They say "stop caring about those questions; you're focusing on the wrong thing, just turn to Jesus." Asking myself who Jesus is doesn't do anything to answer my question. To me, Jesus is a Jew that lived from roughly 0-30ish AD, was baptized by John, and was crucified. That's who Jesus is to me, because that is all we can accurately historically prove about him. He falls under the category, for me, as "another prophet guy" from that time period, who, as someone who studies that time period (but not Christianity specifically), was basically a dime a dozen. You couldn't swing a cat without hitting some radical prophet back then. His is one of the cults that made it. That's who he is to me. I know that isn't who he is to you, and that's fine. However, in no way does asking myself "who is Jesus Christ" do I get closer to answering my question, which is: how do contemporary (modern) christians choose what they believe out of the bible, and what they don't. Wondering about Jesus does nothing for that, because to me he is that I guy I stated above. I'm not perhaps a good example of a modern contemporary Christian, but I choose to believe all of the Bible as the infallible inspired word of God Ok, so you try to do all the things the bible says? Like even the really hard/weird stuff like not mixing threads of different fabric, keeping women obedient, and not working at Sunday? If you don't do those things, how do you justify not doing them, if everything in the bible is the infallible word of god? How do you personally create a hierarchy of "stuff you really should (shouldn't) do, and stuff you should try to do, but it's ok if I can't keep up with that."
Boy you're feeling euphoric aren't you. Part of the point of faith is trusting that good will both forgive and understand you worshiping him how you feel is correct, and adapting to the times.
Also your generalizing Christians pretty heavily there Mizu. Lets not tar all Christians with the same brush, because thats something that shitty Christians do that so offends me and most likely you as well.
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On September 13 2013 13:16 Birdie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 13:07 Awesomedrifter wrote:EDIT: I'm at work currently so I can't talk much but I wanted to ask, where in the Bible does it say "slavery is fine?" After god gives the 10 commandments he goes into greater detail about the law and says slaves should be sold for 30 silver pieces and that owners can beat their slaves as long as the slave can walk after a few days... That doesn't imply approval of slavery, but rather gives laws for what happens if you do in fact have slaves. Most of the laws are about what to do when people do bad stuff. So slavery is not a good thing in general, but if it does happen that you have slaves, here's what the law says about them.
The bible gives specific instruction to the Israelites on who they are allowed to enslave, it says specifically that the slaves are their property, and that they are allowed to beat them nearly to death. How is this not approval?
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On September 13 2013 13:29 Fumanchu wrote:
I remember when I was in fourth grade and I went on a misson trip, I had a leader of my church explain to me his definition of sin. He said that sin or "hamartia" was a greek term for missing the mark in archery. So if you thought of sin as "missing the mark" then you could attribute it to a greater amount of things than the bible specifically denounces. For instance, getting drunk. The bible does a whole crapton of warning against drinking and the effects of getting drunk, but as to the best of my knowledge, it doesn't specifically say, "thou shall not drink" or something to that effect. However, if you were to apply it to this, "hamartia" term, you could quantify it as sin, and therefore something that should be encouraged by other Christians to be avoided altogether.
Is there any sound logic in this theory?
Also, any time I encounter someone who quotes The Message, I just turn and walk away.
There are some Christian groups who believe that drinking is wrong, and they would agree with you. I am not one of those, though. In the case of alcohol, I think the bible is clear that drinking is not inherently bad and that it is one of the many good gifts that God has given humanity. It is, however, wrong to allow yourself to take that gift and abuse it in ways that it was not intended. Here's one reason why I think that way: It's fairly clear that Jesus himself drank, or at the very least was not opposed to drinking. The miracle of turning the water into wine shows this. Jesus gave not only alcoholic wine, but the best wine the guests had drank. Now, I've heard it argued that the wine they had back then wasn't really as alcoholic as the wine we have now so it doesn't mean what I think it means, which I think is very much incorrect. A look at Roman history will tell you that quite clearly Roman wine, even if not as alcoholic as ours (which I have no idea about) was still potent enough to potentially intoxicate.
As far as your theory in general, I kinda prefer the "Catechism" answer that I was taught, thought it's a bit wordy. I'll give a summation after, but the answer to the question "What is Sin" is: "A lack of conformity to or transgression against the Law of God". in other words, doing what God says not to do, or not doing what God says TO do. To use your teacher's language, it's "missing the mark" set by God. I think you'll be hard pressed to find an issue which the bible does not, in some way shape or form, address.
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On September 13 2013 13:57 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2013 09:07 HardlyNever wrote:On September 13 2013 08:59 Birdie wrote:On September 13 2013 08:57 HardlyNever wrote:On September 13 2013 08:31 IronManSC wrote:
Whether or not someone believes in God, everyone has an inward interest in him in some form or another. That's why questions of curiosity and debates pop up. Some of us Christians have been trying to point to the core of true faith, the true Christianity. That is Jesus Christ. Instead of talking about science, philosophical stuff, and why the Old Testament is even there, why don't you just ask Jesus if he's real? If you really ask him in your heart, he will come to you. You got to go to the source of it all. I think this where a lot of the frustration comes from when non-believers try to discuss religion. I'm genuinely interested in understanding modern biblical interpretation, and the reasons behind it. I know it will vary from person to person, and that is fine. I just want to try to understand why some people choose some things out of the bible, while some choose others. In response I get something completely illogical and unrelated. I feel like this is what happens when you start asking too many questions at a church. They say "stop caring about those questions; you're focusing on the wrong thing, just turn to Jesus." Asking myself who Jesus is doesn't do anything to answer my question. To me, Jesus is a Jew that lived from roughly 0-30ish AD, was baptized by John, and was crucified. That's who Jesus is to me, because that is all we can accurately historically prove about him. He falls under the category, for me, as "another prophet guy" from that time period, who, as someone who studies that time period (but not Christianity specifically), was basically a dime a dozen. You couldn't swing a cat without hitting some radical prophet back then. His is one of the cults that made it. That's who he is to me. I know that isn't who he is to you, and that's fine. However, in no way does asking myself "who is Jesus Christ" do I get closer to answering my question, which is: how do contemporary (modern) christians choose what they believe out of the bible, and what they don't. Wondering about Jesus does nothing for that, because to me he is that I guy I stated above. I'm not perhaps a good example of a modern contemporary Christian, but I choose to believe all of the Bible as the infallible inspired word of God Ok, so you try to do all the things the bible says? Like even the really hard/weird stuff like not mixing threads of different fabric, keeping women obedient, and not working at Sunday? If you don't do those things, how do you justify not doing them, if everything in the bible is the infallible word of god? How do you personally create a hierarchy of "stuff you really should (shouldn't) do, and stuff you should try to do, but it's ok if I can't keep up with that." Boy you're feeling euphoric aren't you. Part of the point of faith is trusting that good will both forgive and understand you worshiping him how you feel is correct, and adapting to the times. Also your generalizing Christians pretty heavily there Mizu. Lets not tar all Christians with the same brush, because thats something that shitty Christians do that so offends me and most likely you as well.
All the Christians I know believe homosexuality is a choice.
Do you believe otherwise?
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
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