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On August 29 2013 00:11 Chef wrote:The reason I include this section, or why I write any of this, is just to say that I really love this game. I loved watching it taken past its limit and I love playing it at my own level. It's a real feeling that can't be taken away from me, even by the flippant nature of eSports and gaming culture.
This is the best thing I've read in ages, and yes BW remains with us all, so keep watching and enjoying it, and keep playing it while you can.
As for this discussion;
On August 29 2013 06:23 Empyrean wrote:
Clearly given time (a few months?), the old pros would be able to adapt and would still be on top of the game. What I mean is that if a current C+ player who was around since 2002 were to magically be teleported back in time, I think they could make a very deep run in a tournament. I watch a lot of old replays and the macro is simply sub-par for what you would expect from pro or semi-pro players.
I think as Gecko does, however its completely pointless to consider it either way. Your current player has all the resources and experience of the past to draw on, we know how to macro and which playstyles to choose etc. now because the players then figured out that this was the optimal way to play. You can draw this analogy with any game or sport, Pelé is arguably one of the best footballers of all time, yet if you sent in someone halfway decent from now they would seem to dominate that era and him, because of superior training and tactics we have developed over time now.
The only interesting way to consider it is in reverse, what happens when some extremely good player from the past returns to play in the current time (assuming physicality isn't an issue), how fast can they adapt to new meta etc.
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Agreed 100%. People saw an opportunity to make money and that was enough to systematically dismantle all the sponsorship for pro BW. Before SC2 was even released the "e-sports" hype was dinning loud, and it has continued at that pitch to drown out the inferiority of the successor, and keep the revenue rolling in. I wouldn't feel as bitter if they'd just been honest and not appropriated the names "Starcraft" and "Blizzard", neither of which resembles at all what they used to be except in a very superficial way.
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Very good writing and analysis.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Many a girls were seen in the audience hiding their faces over the years.
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I fucking miss this shit so bad.
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Awesome read Chef, but do you remember sR? =]
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Hey Chef! I am a big fan of the Stove. I share your sentiment. I especially like to rewatch the klazart videos. those were the good ol days
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Great blog! Just to clarify though, the day Jangbi beat Fantasy in the last OSL was August 4th, not August 8th.
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On August 29 2013 10:45 ii.blitzkrieg wrote:
I fucking miss this shit so bad.
+1.
I know that I personally showed up very late to the party, but it's something that I really enjoyed. It's something that I quickly recognized was very special and very unique.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On August 29 2013 00:11 Chef wrote:
There's enough pro BW to last me for ages. As long as its hosted somewhere and as long as I still enjoy it.
Don't you feel like there's something missing if it's not recent / live? Even with SC2, I could never go back and watch a game from 3 months ago that didn't currently have implications... it just doesn't feel the same.
I mean, there's enough professional sports to watch forever, but how often do people watch anything but the absolute classics? I think that's the saddest part of BW being gone for me - even though I'll never love a game as much as it, there still isn't enough to draw me to watch old games. What a sad realization.
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Baa?21245 Posts
On August 29 2013 12:48 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 00:11 Chef wrote:
There's enough pro BW to last me for ages. As long as its hosted somewhere and as long as I still enjoy it. Don't you feel like there's something missing if it's not recent / live? Even with SC2, I could never go back and watch a game from 3 months ago that didn't currently have implications... it just doesn't feel the same. I mean, there's enough professional sports to watch forever, but how often do people watch anything but the absolute classics? I think that's the saddest part of BW being gone for me - even though I'll never love a game as much as it, there still isn't enough to draw me to watch old games. What a sad realization.
Yea the live factor is huge.
I mean I watched plenty of VODs and replays back in the days alongside the lives games but now I can't really find the motivation.
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When it was clear the MSL was going to end, I did pretty much the same thing with respect to old Brood War games that you describe, I just started with the earliest VODs I could find and just started watching through things. Always nice to know I wasn't the only one.
I did find it was tougher to watch much older games compared to games from when I was following more closely (later Proleague seasons) just because I couldn't use my default sense of the timings to understand what players were doing: that intellectual element makes those games more fun when I can pay full attention, but just to queue something up (like I would putting on a stream) I wasn't getting anything out of them.
But damn, it really is just the best game.
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TLADT24920 Posts
Chill makes a good point. I find it hard to go back and watch vods for either BW or SCII. The only exception is if they were played recently otherwise chances are I'll pass.
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On August 29 2013 12:48 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 00:11 Chef wrote:
There's enough pro BW to last me for ages. As long as its hosted somewhere and as long as I still enjoy it. Don't you feel like there's something missing if it's not recent / live? Even with SC2, I could never go back and watch a game from 3 months ago that didn't currently have implications... it just doesn't feel the same. I mean, there's enough professional sports to watch forever, but how often do people watch anything but the absolute classics? I think that's the saddest part of BW being gone for me - even though I'll never love a game as much as it, there still isn't enough to draw me to watch old games. What a sad realization.
Of course, but that's what the attitude change is. Going from focusing on the emotional weight of the games and how there aren't going to be any new storylines, to treating them as something that is pleasant and intellectually stimulating. It would be so much better if I could have both, but the latter still has value to me which is something I was close to forgetting when I lost the former.
I wanted to see Jangbi become the first golden mouse Protoss, I wanted to see Fantasy's d-matrix TvT take the match up through another change, I wanted hive tech ZvZ and to see Reality and Turn become stronger and better. I wanted to see new maps and new strats. A lot is missing without any hope for that.
Still I enjoy the game itself.
It's my personality type that I can be okay with that. Some people need to watch shows that are currently running and popular, and need to have someone to talk to about those experiences. Virtually all of my hobbies are impossible to talk to most people about. Reading literature, watching StarCraft, listening to educational courses on obscure topics, writing... Everything is either very niche or not currently running or popular. As much fun as it would be to relate to other people with my interests, I've never been able to force myself to become interested in something popular. All my favourite authors are dead and will never write another book.
It's a shame that the VODs have been reduced to puzzles for me to ponder, but its still enjoyable for me. I'm more interested in StarCraft than sudoku or random math puzzles, so for now it satisfies me in that way. At many points in life its nice to have something abstract to occupy the mind with, and somehow this game manages to still fulfill that need.
tl;dr: ya it doesn't feel the same at all, and I would get seriously excited about StarCraft games when they were relevant and current, but I genuinely also like just thinking the game through and watching very skillful execution which can sometimes be exciting even without relevance. For however long that feeling lasts, I'll keep watching VODs.
edit: I think for you, if you enjoy SC2, there is no reason to watch old BW VODs, because you already have that need fulfilled. It's only a person who doesn't like most sports and doesn't care for SC2 who can be crazy/ridiculous enough to watch tonnes of old VODs for a dead sport. And it is ridiculous... But that is me.
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On August 29 2013 06:23 Empyrean wrote:
Clearly given time (a few months?), the old pros would be able to adapt and would still be on top of the game. What I mean is that if a current C+ player who was around since 2002 were to magically be teleported back in time, I think they could make a very deep run in a tournament. I watch a lot of old replays and the macro is simply sub-par for what you would expect from pro or semi-pro players.
Yeah, obviously they'd be good. More interesting question would be how much the players of 2002 would have adapted if there was such a good player back then already. Guess the limit was just there, you have to invent how to walk first before you run. I still remember Boxer's sick dropship playes in WCG 2001 against Smuft and Nazgul or his control vs Blackman a year later. That's already - imo - way above the ordinary C+ guys nowadays. And his control was analyzed, adapted and so on and so forth, pretty quick actually. Same goes for how fast the Zerg learned to control Mutas, once this youtube clip was out, showing how to stack mutas in the first place.
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On August 29 2013 04:53 Zeo wrote:
What a great blog post chef. Sadly I'm still in the faze where my mind starts wandering to 'what went wrong' thoughts while watching pro-BW vods, idk I had to stop myself now from writing a long post about how bitter I am about how everything turned out, maybe I should have been more involved or something. It eats away at you...
Sigh... I feel you man. Many long posts were scrapped because I realized the more I wrote, the worse I felt. Especially proof reading what I had wrote.. all that bitterness, resentment, and anger comes right back to you because it's pointed at nothing in particular. Eventually you just get fed up with the whole thing and press the delete key and sit there wondering why you feel so shitty.
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Thanks for putting this into words
BW will one day come back when more people appreciate it the way you do
Until then...we wait
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With SC2 falling apart, I'm having these thoughts of a possible BW Reniassance .. I dunno .. it's just me and it will always be there. Koreans will still be following the BW scene. People having been doing this for more than 10 years so why would they stop? I think I maybe far off but BW can become what Chess is today.
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EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TNwfzc5.gif)
